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Will and Grace: Gay Men and the Women Who Love Them


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#3061

VioletMarx

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 1:01 PM

Will: What now, Karen? Did you lose your stick you use to poke bears ate the zoo?
Karen: No honey, it's right here! (sehe pulls out the stick)


I laughed harder at that line than perhaps any other in the entire series.

Another awesome line from that episode:

Karen to Will: "Put your pants on! You're my lawyer, not my dentist!"

ETA: It always irrationally bothered me that they didn't remember that Grace always wanted to name a daughter Lily, not Lila. Its from that episode where Jack and Grace are hanging out a lot and Will gets jealous, prompting Jack to taunt Will by asking what Grace has always planned to name her daughter.

Edited by VioletMarx, May 2, 2012 @ 1:09 PM.

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#3062

Morbs

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 9:59 PM

Watching the finale again, I also thought it wasn't as bad as I had remembered it to be. Considering that Will & Grace had such a co-dependent relationship and the writers pointed out that they were possibly stunting either others' development, maybe it is best they took a long break from each other and lived their own lives.

I just read Warren Littlefield's oral history of Must See TV, so that is why I've been watching the reruns on Lifetime. I like seeing the growing pains, like when the show had the Harlon character. One of the things repeated in Littlefield's book is that whenever a show tests poorly with a certain demographic, add a character of that demographic.
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#3063

LADreamr

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 10:11 PM

That sounds really good. What is the book called? I'd love to check that out.
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#3064

Morbs

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 10:51 PM

It's called "Top of the Rock: Inside the Rise and Fall of Must See TV", and I thought it was pretty interesting since I watched all those shows. I really like the oral history format, especially when you get different versions of the same events.

For example, Debra Messing talking about being reluctant to sign on to another TV show because of the commitment and then an exec saying she just wanted back end points.

It has a lot of great anecdotes about the development of Will & Grace, the success, and then the end. The entire main cast is interviewed.
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#3065

JakeyIsSusan

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 1:56 AM

I'll have to read that book, too! The comment of that exec is certainly interesting, because, IIRC, "Will & Grace" was really a surprise hit. Of course, a network only orders a pilot if they see dollar signs, and it's always a sign of confidence when you decide James Burrows is going to direct every episode, but "W&G" originally aired on Tuesdays (not Thursdays, which is where NBC would put a show on after "Friends" or "Seinfeld" if they were especially invested in it) and none of the four leads were well-known at the time. I don't think anyone at NBC expected it to last eight seasons.
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#3066

Morbs

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 9:29 AM

James Burrows was actually the one who tipped Debra off that she was what they wanted. It seemed like at the time NBC just had relatively unknown actors that they were deadset on having as NBC stars (Jane Leeves, Jennifer Aniston). Then with W&G, putting it on Tuesdays and then Thursday was so that the show could sneak onto the air and avoid becoming politicized the way Ellen had. I think some people, like Warren Littlefield and Burrows, really believed in the show and thought it could run for awhile.
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#3067

Bunny LaJoya

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Posted Dec 10, 2012 @ 11:34 AM

I've been rewatching all the seasons, so I'm glad this thread exists, thank you.

This show is actually incredibly enjoyable through Seasons 1-5, and though unpopular, I'll go ahead and add Season 6 to that. The Fagmalian episodes are Season 6 and I think I enjoy these even more than the Mira Sorvino episode. The Mira one was absolutely brilliant at first, but I think I'm kinda tired of it now.

Even though Season 5 and onward the show is absolutley ridiculous with guest stars -- often there are TWO A-List Hollywood Celebrity bonafide STARS in EACH episode. Absolutely ridiculous, almost Simpsons level guest starring.

I've been watching Season 7 now and it's almost impossible to wade through. It's painful. It's really, really bad. This is the season where Will is dating Vince and I have nothing against Vince or Bobby Cannavale -- the season is just straight up boring. Debra Messing is "phoning it in" as has been pointed it out here, and everything is just blah altogether.

Season 8 actually dips upward in quality, I'd argue -- mostly due to Alec Baldwin. I actually really dug the live episode and was laughing throughout -- I didn't mind the SH/DM character breaks, though I can totally see why they would annoy others.

"Jump the Shark" moment -- I agree with those who pointed out Grace and Leo's marriage as the dip in quality. I'm fine with the characters being married but it makes absolutely zero sense for your main character to marry a guest star who can't be there all the time (Harry Connick Jr.). Very distracting and takes you out of the show. Also, the adultery storyline was way too dark for me on this show. I think it's very hard for the audience to root for Leo if not impossible, so I can't get behind this storyline.

Watching all the seasons together I notice the dip in Jack's character -- loveable for the first 5 seasons, but a little too empty/stupid/one-note later on. I don't mind the dip in Karen's character. However -- what is with the fake bun? Was Megan Mullaly losing her hair in these seasons? I've always wanted to ask.

Edited by Bunny LaJoya, Dec 10, 2012 @ 12:41 PM.

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#3068

bparhad

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Posted Dec 10, 2012 @ 1:24 PM

I've been watching Season 7 now and it's almost impossible to wade through. It's painful. It's really, really bad. This is the season where Will is dating Vince and I have nothing against Vince or Bobby Cannavale -- the season is just straight up boring.


I agree with you for the most part, except that the one episode that season I love is when Vince is working in the grocery store/the one with Jeff Goldblum. For whatever, I find that episode hysterical.
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#3069

Bunny LaJoya

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Posted Dec 10, 2012 @ 6:10 PM

It's kind of funny that Vince has the weirdest obsession with gloves, LOL. Like he's had 67 citations and 9 of them were glove related, so he was finally fired as a cop. LOL!!! And Goldblum's humour on the show is very weird -- sometimes I get it, sometimes I'm like... WTF.
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#3070

ari333

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Posted Jul 25, 2013 @ 10:54 AM

I like this show and at times it is hit and miss with me; but I watched one today that has to be among my favorite eppys. It is the one where Jack does his, "Jack 2000!" show as opposed to the former, "Just Jack!." It's quite hilarious. He sings with an image of himself a la Natalie and Nat King Cole and it was so badly funny. Will: "There's not a drink maximum here is there?"  Then Jack jumps up from the piano and starts chatting up the audience. It is so terrible until he begins snarking on Will and the audience wakes up and starts laughing. He killed in the good way, but only by truly insulting Will. I'm not doing it justice in the description.


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#3071

blaase

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Posted Jul 25, 2013 @ 3:06 PM

I loved all the episodes with Molly Shannon.


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#3072

ari333

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Posted Jul 25, 2013 @ 4:44 PM

Omg, Molly was hilarious on this show. Love those eppys too!


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#3073

discorules

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Posted Jul 26, 2013 @ 10:26 AM

The one with Neil Patrick Harris is one of my favorites. Also the ones with Cher. The ones with Madonna & Jennifer Lopez were weak, imo.


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#3074

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Posted Jul 26, 2013 @ 1:00 PM

I loved all the episodes with Molly Shannon.

 

"Gosh and begorra, gosh and begorra, gosh and begorra, my Irish eyes!"


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#3075

ari333

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Posted Jul 26, 2013 @ 2:55 PM


Also the ones with Cher.

 

"If I could turn back TI-OH-oh oh oh ohMmm" (insert hair flip/ lip lick here) 


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#3076

TimeMonkey

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Posted Jul 26, 2013 @ 5:15 PM

I didn't mind so much that Grace got married so much as how she acted after, like he had to be a part of everything all the time. It's stupid under normal circumstances and worse when, as mentioned above, he's just a guest star who is not around for every episode.


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#3077

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Posted Jul 30, 2013 @ 3:42 PM

Eileen Brennan, aka Zandra the acting teacher, has gone to put out lit cigarettes in people's eyes in the sky.


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#3078

JBC344

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Posted Jul 31, 2013 @ 10:34 AM

Once I read the notice of her passing yesterday I immediately thought of her character Zandra.  RIP Eileen


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#3079

Xazeal

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Posted Jul 31, 2013 @ 11:31 AM

Oh, I thought Molly Shannon was hilarious on this show. I especially loved her delivery of "Accept the things you cannot change, BITCH!" and it just has me on the floor every time.

 

I've been rewatching this show recently, and while I agree there's a dip in quality towards the end, it never really reaches painful levels of suck for me. It seems like nine out of ten shows that make it past four seasons really start to go downhill, and some like How I Met Your Mother become straight up unwatchable. But even when Will & Grace is bad, I freaking love it.

 

And after all these years, I still think Karen Walker is the funniest TV character of all time, though Leslie Knope and Chloe of Apartment 23 come close. And man, I would have loved to see Karen interact with either of those women. 


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#3080

braggtastic

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Posted Jul 31, 2013 @ 1:23 PM

Megan is doing a really funny arc as a broadway composer on Web Therapy, Lisa Kudrow's Showtime series. She's been in the first two this season. I know the episodes are packaged differently online, so maybe they're already available to see elsewhere, but it's worth seeing for Karen fans.


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#3081

JohnnyGilda

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Posted Jul 31, 2013 @ 5:32 PM

 

I still think Karen Walker is the funniest TV character of all time

 

I just made this point two days ago to someone who was shocked(!) to see that I had a folder full of WAG eps on the dvr.  According to him, I should have moved on by now--but honestly, I love the whole cast of characters, from Blob and Yellin' to good ol' Smitty to dearly departed Zandra.  RIP Miss Brennan.


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#3082

TimeMonkey

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Posted Jul 31, 2013 @ 5:51 PM

There's just something about Karen where no matter what she does it's always hilarious.


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#3083

xmanson

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Posted Aug 12, 2013 @ 7:14 PM

"Tell Stan's secretary that one woman's sexual harassment is another woman's day off!"

 

Killed me.


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#3084

spaceytraci17

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Posted Aug 12, 2013 @ 8:37 PM

My favorite Leo moment is when he and Will keep going back and forth about who will stay with Grace to see "The Nutcracker". When Will finally concedes because he realizes that Leo now has to take priority, being Grace's husband, he says something about how it's really a stupid story anyway because the dancing toys come to life and how unrealistic it is. In response, Leo says (in Harry Connick Jr's natural accent) "I ain't watchin' no dancin', toys, Will!"  That line only is the only reason I'll watch the rerun when it comes up lol.


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#3085

bparhad

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Posted Aug 13, 2013 @ 9:14 AM

There's just something about Karen where no matter what she does it's always hilarious.

 

Agreed!  My very favorite Karen lines are often ones that don't really sound funny on the surface, but her inflections are hilarious.  Case in point:

 

- "I'm going to do to her what she did to Stan - have sex with her until she dies.  Open up Lorraine!  And put on a condom!"

-"You've been having sex with my pans?!"
-And my all time favorite: her entire "Doily" conversation with Jack in the Gay Spelling Bee episode.  


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#3086

ari333

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Posted Aug 13, 2013 @ 10:59 AM

There are so many favorite lines I don't know where to start.

 

I love Grace's obnoxious, "Told Ya So" song.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=IV4sB7O97ro

 

I also like the entrances, "Good mornings ladies.... and Karen...."

 

Karen to Grace: "For your entire life, fate has been cruel to you in almost every way. So... Maybe this time fate stepped back, took a good look at you and said, 'You know what? Enough already.' "

 

The ones with Jeff Goldblum playing Scott Wooley were weird and hilaraious. The recurring role for "Beverley Leslie," one nemesis of Karen's, was always funny.

 

 Scott to Beverley:  "If you bother the woman I love one more time, I'm gonna rip out your tiny arms and give them to her on a charm bracelet."
 Karen: "Honey, no one's ever offered to dismember a dwarf and make jewelry out of them for me before."


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#3087

godonlyknows

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Posted Aug 13, 2013 @ 3:42 PM

"Grate some cheese with your toenails and invite them in for quiche?" and from the same episode "Did I just scream like a woman?" / "Don't flatter yourself. You screamed like a girl."

 

"The first time I heard that, I laughed so hard I fell off my dinosaur."

 

I need to break out my DVDs again. It's been far too long since I've watched this show I can hardly quote it.


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#3088

cincivic

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Posted Aug 14, 2013 @ 7:37 AM

I never was a big fan of the Molly Shannon episodes. They were just okay. I just watched the Kevin Bacon episode and the scene with Kevin and Will never fails to make me laugh.
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#3089

BlakeSpeare

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Posted Aug 15, 2013 @ 5:34 PM

I loved when Beverly Leslie made a crack about Stan being in the big house, and Karen said, "Every house is a big house to you!"


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#3090

TimeMonkey

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Posted Aug 15, 2013 @ 6:17 PM

I loved the way he pronounced Rosario's name.


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