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Season 3: After Pylea


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#1

nil

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 7:51 PM

"Forgiving" was on today. Best part? The spittle dripping out of Angel's mouth. I'm pretty sure that part wasn't scripted, so I wonder how Alexis felt about getting drooled on...

#2

dusky

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 7:59 PM

I don't know I think the best part about "Forgiving" is Angel acquiring and lining up the impliments of torture. He is so cold and business like but you know he knows what he is doing. Our hero a "man" who knows how to torture and kill and who sometimes really enjoys it.

#3

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 10:12 PM

I just saw "Forgiving" for the first time today and I couldn't help but notice how the Little Girl in the White Room looks, acts, and speaks exactly like Eve. Mr. Kwyjibo says I'm crazy because The Beast killed the Little Girl, but it is just bugging me. Am I crazy?

#4

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 10:35 PM

I don't know I think the best part about "Forgiving" is Angel acquiring and lining up the impliments of torture. He is so cold and business like but you know he knows what he is doing.

I concur. We're so preoccupied with Angel that we never see the next shot coming. To see Linwood there tied up was surprising even in the rerun.

#5

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 11:00 PM

...the Little Girl in the White Room looks, acts, and speaks exactly like Eve. Mr. Kwyjibo says I'm crazy because The Beast killed the Little Girl, but it is just bugging me. Am I crazy?

kwyjibo, watching Forgiving this afternoon, I noticed the similarities too... so remind Mr. Kwyjibo that "killed" is no obstacle in the Jossverse.

Edited by jerry, Dec 31, 2003 @ 11:03 PM.


#6

Naxus

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 2:56 AM

You're not crazy, Eve is strikingly (and weirdly if it's just a coincidence) similar to the Little Girl. I always forget we only saw her twice -- here and in "Habeas Corpses" ([OT]to be fair, we don't know that she was actually killed; she sent the MoG away and then we never saw her again. So who knows?[/OT]).

One thing that struck me while watching "Forgiving" today was Justine. She actually seemed okay at the end. I mean, she stops Sahjhan from killing Angel by trapping him in the urn, when she could have easily let Angel get killed first. And then she tells them where she left Wesley and doesn't give them any trouble.

But then we don't see her again until "Benediction," right? And then in "Tomorrow" she's all about the vengeance again. I wonder if Holtz's (brief) return sparked her hate again, or if it was the presence of Connor. I think maybe both. Holtz's return rekindled her hate/loyalty to him; while his death and Connor's attitude gave her an irresistible opporunity to get Angel.

Either way, it kind of sucks since she didn't seem all evil at the end of "Forgiving." I wonder what ever happened to her after "Deep Down"?.... Ah, well, I'm sure everyone is too psyched about seeing "Double or Nothing" tomorrow to think about it. :-)

Edited by Naxus, Jan 1, 2004 @ 2:59 AM.


#7

Durazo

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 2:25 PM

Wow, finally caught "Forgiving" yesterday (I've seen all but the last few eps of season 3), and though I think Angel was totally justified, I've never hated (in a good way) any Buffyverse moment more than when he smothered Wesley. That was just painful to watch. It was so violent and depraved, and for one member of the family to do it to another, ::shudder::.

#8

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 4:13 PM

See, my milage definatly varies there, Durazo. That scene is imo, one of the best of the series because it follows through on the potential of the characters and the storytelling of this show.

The entire arc leading up to that scene shows us the dark potential of Angel and Wes and doesn't wimp out in the final punch. When you first see it, see Angel talking to Fred and Gunn, you think, oh he's forgiven Wes even though and then he's talking to Wes and sounds all forgiving.

But I felt more rewarded by what happened because it's not the formulaic thing to do, it's what Angel the Souled Vampire would do. It reminds us that Angel, Champion and all still can be ruled by his literal inner demon.

Edited by roguetamlin, Jan 1, 2004 @ 4:15 PM.


#9

Vaya

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 7:22 PM

You're not crazy, Eve is strikingly (and weirdly if it's just a coincidence) similar to the Little Girl. I always forget we only saw her twice -- here and in "Habeas Corpses" ([OT]to be fair, we don't know that she was actually killed; she sent the MoG away and then we never saw her again. So who knows?[/OT])


YAY! It wasn't just me! I saw it too, it was eerie...

We don't know if the members of the ratep could be killed in any real sense, but that's a discussion for another thread.

#10

samolly

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 7:46 PM

the Little Girl in the White Room looks, acts, and speaks exactly like Eve. Mr. Kwyjibo says I'm crazy because The Beast killed the Little Girl, but it is just bugging me. Am I crazy?

I'm glad everybody else is seeing it too. But now it is really bugging me that they have made no reference to this in the current season - especially with all of Eve bringing Gunn to the White Room.

#11

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Posted Jan 2, 2004 @ 1:30 PM

"Forgiving" was my first Angel so it has a warm place in my heart. It became appointment TV for me after that. I thought it was brilliant the first time around and this time I found it even more satisfying. Angel's approach to killing Wesley was very interesting. What happened with him in the hospital room didn't seem dark, evil or beige. It came off very human and soulful. It was one those human Angel moments for me.

#12

samolly

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Posted Jan 2, 2004 @ 2:31 PM

Angel's approach to killing Wesley was very interesting.

I did love how he made sure Wesley knew who was going to kill him. It sent chills up my spine!

#13

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Posted Jan 2, 2004 @ 2:36 PM

I've read the transcript before, but I hadn't seen it, and the tape ran out right after Angel asks if he can see Wesley. Pisses me RIGHT OFF!!!

#14

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Posted Jan 2, 2004 @ 4:34 PM

Forgiving was a lot of fun to watch, esp. back-to-back with Sleep Tight. The ending scene was just as chilling as I remembered. so now I have been reminded that Fred, Gunn and Lorne were all convinced that Wes had least acted in what he thought was Connor's best interests and seemed ready to forgive him. Or understand. I remember at the time that there were a lot of complaints about how the MoG abandoned Wes, so I need to catch in re-runs how and why they all turned on a dime against him. I'd love to see the commentary on that when they get into S3 DVDs. Angel holding on to his anger and despair is understandable. Everyone else? I'm not so sure. Of course it did lead to more Scruffy Wes and Wes/Lilah....

#15

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Posted Jan 2, 2004 @ 6:19 PM

Angel's approach to killing Wesley was very interesting.


I did love how he made sure Wesley knew who was going to kill him. It sent chills up my spine!

After reading this I now see why my original perception of that scene may be in error. If Angel really wanted to kill Wesley, he could have just snapped his neck. I thought his smothering of him was just his way of telling him you did hurt me but you thought it was for the right reasons so I'm letting you live. It didn't occur to me before that using the pillow would be what "Angel" would do to kill someone.

#16

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Posted Jan 2, 2004 @ 6:57 PM

It seems snapping someone's neck is Angelus' way of killing someone he doesn't care enough about to torture. Plus, asphyxiation means no broken neck to explain.

#17

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Posted Jan 3, 2004 @ 12:18 AM

I haven't watched season 3 in quite some time so it was nice to have this time off from work to watch it for the past week or so. I had forgotten just how crazy Angel goes in Wesley's hospital room, what with the drooling and the screaming even after we go to the credits. Personally I always looked at the pillow moment as a very human one. Sure, he could just snap his neck, but smothering him with a pillow just seems so human gone over the edge with grief and anger to me. I know I'd go for the pillow if I were him.

Watching Double or Nothing tonight was something. First there was the horror of the pancake kisses again, then the shock of Cordelia's blonde short hideous hairdo. Not to mention that damned Hooty and the Blowfish "Goodbye Girl" song that they're running into the ground on TNT right now.

It was nice to see Groo again though. And Gunn's "Her name is I'm a real woman, not a stick figure" to Fred? Ouch. Made me feel sorry for her, which was necessary after I had to be reminded of how annoying I found her back then with that annoying way she was always speaking when she was "flirting" with Gunn. That bed scene with the pancakes is just pure torture. If Angel really wanted Wesley to suffer, he should just make him watch that scene on a continuous loop. Ugh.

#18

scrappinphool

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Posted Jan 3, 2004 @ 11:00 AM

I wonder if the writers meant for there to be some symbolic meaning in a vampire choosing to kill someone from his "family" by smothering him. It is a very personal, rageful way to kill a person- you have to get very close and it takes a lot of force for more time than snapping a neck would take. Plus, you have this underlying theme of this vampire who cannot breathe (although that's been spotty in the Whedon-verse) trying to kill someone he loves as family by stealing his breathe. It seems very personal and emotional when you consider other methods he could have gone with (breaking neck, biting, shooting, stabbing, etc.).

#19

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Posted Jan 3, 2004 @ 3:06 PM

Plus, there's the time involved. When a neck snaps, everything is over quick. When you're asphyxiating, there's all this time where you're trying to struggle, where every thought is "My God, I'm going to die!" Much more panic. much more fear.

#20

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Posted Jan 3, 2004 @ 6:37 PM

Smothering, I think, is very personal in this context, in that Angel couldn't see Wes' face as he did it. This wasn't some random victim, this was a friend, a once trusted ally. It also blots Wes out in the larger sense of removing him from the sight of the world. Had Angel succeeded that is.

#21

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Posted Jan 3, 2004 @ 6:40 PM

All of this talk is depressing me because, brilliant as these scenes were, they never happened. Sigh...

#22

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 1:21 AM

I think Forgiving is also the episode where Strega's famed love of Jeffrey Bell began to blossom. I was looking through the recap and I came upon these notable quotes.

I'd also like to mention how much nicer it is to do a recap when I don't dread watching the episode again.


Fred says, "Throw me away." Gunn asks, "You want me to put you in the trash?" It almost seems like they went through a list of scenes I'd like to see, and tried to work them all in here. That's sweet.


Sure, I think the pacing of this episode could have been better, but it's just chock full of presents for me, and I appreciate that.

Hee.

Edited by Zen, Jan 4, 2004 @ 1:22 AM.


#23

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 2:38 AM

"Double or Nothing"...That sure is...an episode.

I have to admit, though, that I get some kind of weird enjoyment out of hearing "Gangsta's Paradise." Because I'm hearing "Gangsta's Paradise." On Angel. Yes, it's wrong. Yes, it's out of place. And that's exactly why I get such a kick out of it.

So that's where "pancake kisses" cam from. I'd seen the episode before (a number of times), but forgot that, and always wondered what the hell people were talking about. Now I know.

I also get a laugh out of:

Fred: But he would never say those things!
Cordy: Those...things he said?

Edited by Naxus, Jan 4, 2004 @ 5:40 AM.


#24

Warden

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 4:36 PM

"Double or Nothing"...That sure is...an episode.

It was so unexpected when Angel drew a 3 and everybody said "3?" Cordy staking Jenoff's hand and Angel cutting his head off seemed so much like cheating but in Vegas sometimes you have to cheat to win.

#25

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 8:04 PM

Perhaps a consequence of our pluralism, we tend to like to hold people to the standards we think they commit themselves to. Then we cheerfully excoriate them for failing to live up to those standards. I've done it myself, even though I am not convinced there's much there there. A fun thing about that episode; everyone's breaking the supposed rules. Teehee. Though I liked it better when I didn't worry that it was all part of Jasmine's evil plan.

#26

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Posted Jan 5, 2004 @ 2:15 PM

I think it was a good idea to have a bit of an interlude after the furor of "Forgiving" and the preceding episodes, but I absolutely hate "Double or Nothing."

There are precious few episodes of AtS that I don't at least partially enjoy, but DoN is the leader of the pack. The only highlights for me are Groo and Cordelia being confused by Fred and Angel's line "You and Gunn are dating? That line really rolls me.

#27

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Posted Jan 5, 2004 @ 4:35 PM

DoN is pretty lame. Plus, Cordy comes back from Mexico with the worst bleach job ever and it affect her brain, as evidenced by the rest of the season.

I found Fred's speech to Wes interesting. So the gang felt betrayed by him even though they could see where he was coming from, hence the lack of support for him? Although I suppose she looks out for him by letting him know just how serious the depth of Angel's hate is. I see where she's coming from but it's a little cheap to unload all of that on a man who can't even defend himself ( since he can hardly speak). And once he is recuperated no one makes the effort to reach out to him, am I remembering this right?

#28

nil

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Posted Jan 5, 2004 @ 4:44 PM

I like to think the dye job was Groo's idea. For he is an evil, evil man.

I think DoN wins the award for "worst placement of an episode EVER." Last week, Angel's son is kidnapped and he tries to kill Wesley. Next week, Gunn gambles! WTF? Did Fury write that one?

#29

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Posted Jan 5, 2004 @ 6:15 PM

Yeah shimi you were remembering that right. And that's what sort of ticked me off about the gang in season three. I mean, Wes didn't make the best choice (far from it), but it's not like he went and consciously handed Connor over to Holtz. Justine took the little brat. It's interesting that the gang just doesn't seem to grasp this. And Fred, it's not polite to crush people when they just recently had a near-death experience. Just... not nice.

#30

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Posted Jan 5, 2004 @ 7:26 PM

I finally saw the end of "The Price" today. On my first viewing my local WB station decided that it needed an extra 30 seconds and so cut right before Connor came through the ceiling. I spent a week wondering what the hell happened. It was a kick ass intro to our favorite really screwed up teenager.