On re-watch, I don't find much improvement. Instead, I was reminded that I thought Mrs Gillyflower had a bit of a problem. How does an old woman fit into the Brave New World she was creating? I would have expected the Doctor to point out that paradox.
7-12: "the Crimson Horror" 2013.05.04
Posted May 7, 2013 @ 3:15 PM
I thought the episode was amusing as well...not as good as the Unquiet Dead, but certainly worth watching and it kept me entertained. Mrs. Gillyflower and her daughter were outstanding as was the Paternoster Gang.
A few questions I've still been pondering...
1) Mrs. Gillyflower said she found her parasite at the river. But how did she know what it could do and what to use the venom to do? Are they psychically linked? Because even really BIG parasites don't usually manage to converse with their hosts. Unless I'm just hanging around with the wrong parasites.
2) Why would dipping people save them? Wouldn't you have to injest it over long periods of time to build up an immunity?
3) What was in the closet that made everyone all better? I thought maybe it was the sonic screwdriver, but when Ten was poisoned in the Unicorn and the Wasp, the sonic couldn't save him, but he needed an entire concoction to do a cleanse (including a shock)..well, now I'm getting nostalgic for Donna.
I loved the idea that the last image you saw is left on your eye. I must say that the Doctor Who gang were much calmer about getting the image as opposed to the Fringe team (who made it quite a production...darn I miss them)
Posted May 7, 2013 @ 3:38 PM
How does an old woman fit into the Brave New World she was creating? I would have expected the Doctor to point out that paradox.I think that when it comes to most monomaniacal would-be world destroyers and re-creators, they blithely leave their own shortcomings out of the mix. It's along the lines of "sacrifices have to be made" - but never by the person saying it - and the horrible person who is at the center of the plan will of course be grandfathered into the Brave New World they created, even if they don't meet the entry requirements they themselves drew up.
AMadsen, I suspect the parasite was somehow psychically linked, but it may not have been "intelligent" as we recognize intelligence. It may have reacted to the natural nastiness of its host and influenced her in a way that would make her do things guaranteed to bring about an environment that would be beneficial to the parasite. Weirder symbioses can be found even in real-life nature, ones that make you go "whoah?!?"
Unless I'm just hanging around with the wrong parasites.
This made tea come out my nose. Thank you.
As for whether dipping people would actually save them, my guess is that it wouldn't. But nobody ever credited mad villains with making smart plans. If the Master and Davros can't get it right after numerous tries, I think Mrs. Gillyflower can be forgiven for a few fatal flaws in her strategems.
Posted May 7, 2013 @ 6:04 PM
Teenagers at home?
Because even really BIG parasites don't usually manage to converse with their hosts. Unless I'm just hanging around with the wrong parasites.
When Strax started talking about "80% casualties", I expected the Doctor to point out th.at 80% of five people is four
How did the "Paternoster Gang" get that name?
Edited by MarkHB, May 7, 2013 @ 6:08 PM.
Posted May 7, 2013 @ 8:26 PM
When Strax started talking about "80% casualties", I expected the Doctor to point out th.at 80% of five people is fourI thought he was talking about civilian casualties.
Posted May 7, 2013 @ 10:48 PM
MarkHB How did the "Paternoster Gang" get that name?
Beyond saying that it means "Our Father Gang", no idea.
Still hate the episode, but didn't have a problem with the giant rocket. Rockets go back centuries in China and as a weapon date back to the Napoleonic Wars (and used in the War of 1812 between Britain & the USA, as referenced in The Star Spangled Banner). I assume the Crimson Horror was responsible for the blueprints of the rocket (of course, how they managed to survive being inside the launch tower is another matter!) and it only needed an atmospheric burst and not to achieve orbit (well, it depends how much of the planet they intended to pollute and/or how virulent the bio agent was).
I'd also assumed that the pictures were all on Clara's computer (well, presumably the one Clara didn't recognise wasn't, but apart from that one), even if that seemed to be contradicted by its own dialogue.
Posted May 7, 2013 @ 11:15 PM
Their HQ is on Paternoster Row in London.
Note that there is an official ebook (and audiobook) novella featuring the trio (without the Doctor) in their own adventure. Not great, I thought, but Strax's actor does do the audiobook reading.
Posted May 8, 2013 @ 1:08 AM
The first 3rd of the episode felt like a setup for a spinoff featuring Vastra, Jenny and Strax
I would love to see that series.
Isn't Jenny the Doctor's Daughter?
Posted May 8, 2013 @ 1:33 AM
Isn't Jenny the Doctor's Daughter?
No, that's another Jenny altogether.
Posted May 8, 2013 @ 2:54 PM
No, that's another Jenny altogether.
Although the thought of Jenny Flint and The Doctor's Daughter tearing through the Whoniverse on adventures is an appealing one ....
Posted May 9, 2013 @ 7:46 PM
What happened to all the waxed people who were not rejects chucked into the river? The ones I assume would have been the new Adam and Eves for Mrs Gillyflower's new Eden?
Thanks for reminding me of Moonraker. I hadn't put 2 and 2 together but yes it is the same plot. I liked that that plot got unraveled by Jaws (the giant) and his love for a little person who obviously were not going to be part of THAT new Eden.
Poor Ada maimed by her own mom in an experiment. In response to why her upthread...because I'm sure it is easier for an evil person like Mrs Gilliflower to abuse a child than kidnap a homeless guy of the street and keep him tied up while experimenting even once she gets helpful minions. Besides for most of history people have thought of thier kids as thier property with which they could do whatever they want. I assume Mr Gilliflower died unless Mrs Gilliflower covered up an out of wedlock pregnancy and there never was a Mr Gilliflower. (She made him up to save face.) It would add to her reasons for being so cold hearted to Ada. I do wonder how a blind female without parents or a husband in that age would survive from that point on. I will fanwank that she sold the property and got set up nicely and then wrote books. Possibly science fiction about time travelling aliens. I hope Madame Vastra and Jenny look in on her once in a while.
After all that talk in the submarine ep about the deaths becoming "real" for her what sane person would take kids on a Tardis journey? Even if they don't get killed by Cybermen (which let's face it statistically speaking at least one of them should die) how could you place them in danger? To keep your "secret?" Seriously? Like others have said they have no proof and even if they did it STILL wouldn't merit putting them in danger. I wouldn't let the kids in the Tardis if the Doctor swore we'd only go down the street to the ice cream parlor in it. She KNOWS he can't control that thing. There's dumb and then there is too dumb to live and therefore the fact that you are alive proves you aren't real. This is the latter.
ETA Was Jenny the Doctor's daughter in this universe or another?(Like E-space or where Rose ended up) I forget. I do believe it was in the far future. IIRC though there is no easy fanwank on how she could get her hands on a Tardis so if she is to reappear ever the Doctor would have to go to her. Which is too bad because that Jenny popping into victorian England and running into the gang would be great. I like the idea of a female Time Lord bopping around. I fanwank that since Romana was in E-space she survived the Time War. I am however still mad that of all the places Gallifrey could have tried to re-materialize it HAD to be where Earth is instead of the billions of empty spaces or dead worlds it would have done no harm to inhabit.
Edited by MDKNIGHT, May 9, 2013 @ 7:54 PM.
Posted May 10, 2013 @ 8:30 AM
I felt like Clara was unnecessary in this episode. Jenny (and Vastra and Strax, but mostly Jenny) were the true companions for a majority of the episode, and I like Jenny a lot more as a companion than Clara. I'd love to see more of all three (and I LOVED Strax running around all Sontaran, with his big weapons and his 9 yr old GPS ).
I wish Clara would have laughed in the kids' faces and said "Fine, tell your dad."-because, even pre-photoshop, what parent would look at those pics and see it as "Oh, my (free, because she was only there as a favor to the family) nanny's a time traveler with an alien boyfriend?" as opposed to "Oh, that's interesting-how did you do that?" How many times do you see a picture in an old photo album and that family member looks like a currently alive one, only with period hair and clothing? It's not an uncommon experience.
Oh, and in a music geek thing-the hymn they were singing wasn't set to music until 1914-although the poem by Blake was quite appropriate.
Edited by dmmetler, May 10, 2013 @ 8:35 AM.
Posted May 10, 2013 @ 1:09 PM
After all that talk in the submarine ep about the deaths becoming "real" for her what sane person would take kids on a Tardis journey?
Never underestimate what panic and confusion can make pop out of a person's mouth. Unless I missed something, Clara was confused not only by the Victorian picture that she knew wasn't her, but also by all the pictures she knew were of her. It seemed to me that she was trying to figure out how the hell any of those pictures got on her computer. (My money is on whatever mysterious mover and shaker put Clara into the mix in the first place, or perhaps the woman in the computer shop who first gave Clara the TARDIS' outer telephone number back in "Bells of St. John".) I've certainly had experiences where I've told someone anything I could think of to get them to stop bothering me.
Also, don't underestimate the staggering irresponsibility of the Doctor. By the time he arrives in the next episode, Clara may well have decided that it would be horribly foolish to take the kids on an adventure - and it could be the Doctor who rolls over her objections and says, "Oh, no, come on, where's your sense of fun, it'll be a lark!" As he does.
ETA: thanks, dmmetler, for the information on "Jerusalem", which I never would have twigged to.
Edited by Kaffyr, May 10, 2013 @ 1:12 PM.
Posted May 10, 2013 @ 3:01 PM
I do wonder how a blind female without parents or a husband in that age would survive from that point on.I think Ada will be fine. She has money so she does not need family or a husband and can just hire someone.
Was Jenny the Doctor's daughter in this universe or another?(Like E-space or where Rose ended up) I forget. I do believe it was in the far future. IIRC though there is no easy fanwank on how she could get her hands on a Tardis so if she is to reappear ever the Doctor would have to go to her.Yes, it's this universe. She wouldn't need a TARDIS. There are other ways to time travel, the TARDIS is just the best. Remember Jack and River's vortex manipulators?
Posted May 11, 2013 @ 4:45 PM
I suspect Smith and Coleman were too busy filming something like the 50th anniversary special and they needed a "Doctor Lite" episode to wallpaper over this week's hole in the schedule.
I don't think that anything to do with it (the 50th started filming much later), although Doctor-lite episodes are a tradition, so maybe?
Maybe that's why they made him a nurse? I can't remember the exact reason for that.
It always kind of bugged me that the worst punishment for a Sontaran is being turned into a (wet) nurse. Does he still lactate, or did that feature get removed when he joined the Paternoster Gang. He doesn't seem very much like nurse-Strax anymore.
I met Diana Rigg at a screening and Q&A session a few weeks ago, and I think she did have old age make-up in the episode, because she really didn't look like that - though I suppose the hair makes a big difference. And she speaks with more or less an RP accent in real life, even if she is from Yorkshire originally. I guess it's like John Barrowman being able to switch between his original Scottish accent and the American accent he developed later on.
Add me to those who hated the ending with the kids. There has to have been a better way to get them in the TARDIS, come on!
Edited by derekevans, May 11, 2013 @ 4:46 PM.
Posted May 20, 2013 @ 12:52 PM
When Jenny paid the girl in line to create a distraction, I thought the noise she made and her bit of a spin before she fell was an allusion to the TARDIS.