Jump to content

1-12: "The Oath" 2013.04.24


  • Please log in to reply

176 replies to this topic

#151

AddiePray

AddiePray

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 30, 2013 @ 7:05 PM

But, I'm hoping we're nearly done with all the Martha...


I'm getting anxious for the Martha scenes to be done too. From the beginning I loved the two of them because they gave us a bit of comic relief when everything else was so intense. The way Matthew Ryhs played Clark just absolutely slayed me, his flat way of saying "that was incredible . . . Martha ", the dorky full nerd way he looked and the way he smiled at her parents all just gold. And Granny and Elizabeth in full church lady wear was priceless. But then Amador got killed and everything started to go down hill quickly. It just wasn't so muc fun anymore and it became more and more uncomfortable to watch him work on Martha and with her increasing desperation and reluctance to see anything right in front of her face it just became sad and depressing. I'm hoping that particular storyline doesn't carry over into Season 2.
  • 2

#152

Artemis

Artemis

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 30, 2013 @ 7:22 PM

While I admit that I don't have enough bleach or acid to get "Shoot yourself into me, Clark!" out of my brain, I really love the Martha storyline, in part for the comic relief as mentioned, and I will be depressed as hell if they have to kill her.

I am hoping that "Clark" can do something horrible that will cause Martha to dump him. The other alternative is to have them both get in an accident, and by the time Martha's parents show up, Granny can call to tell them that she had Clark transferred to a hospital in her home city so that she and his sister can care for him. Then they have to figure out a way to give Martha amnesia.

Maybe Philip actually did Martha a huge favor by marrying her, since it will make it harder to kill her off, and might justify the expense of a more complex scenario such as this.
  • 0

#153

Hal25

Hal25

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 30, 2013 @ 8:05 PM

I'm getting anxious for the Martha scenes to be done too. From the beginning I loved the two of them because they gave us a bit of comic relief when everything else was so intense. The way Matthew Ryhs played Clark just absolutely slayed me, his flat way of saying "that was incredible . . . Martha ", the dorky full nerd way he looked and the way he smiled at her parents all just gold. And Granny and Elizabeth in full church lady wear was priceless. But then Amador got killed and everything started to go down hill quickly. It just wasn't so muc fun anymore and it became more and more uncomfortable to watch him work on Martha and with her increasing desperation and reluctance to see anything right in front of her face it just became sad and depressing. I'm hoping that particular storyline doesn't carry over into Season 2.


Agree with all of this. I also dislike that it takes so much time away from story arcs I'm more interested in, particularly in this most recent episode. There's just something about the way Martha makes those big, blinky eyes and bites her lip in excitement that grates on my nerves. I'd much rather see Philip/Elizabeth, mission stuff, Stan and his various troubles, the kids, Rezidentura and Arkady/Nina, heck even Grannie... basically anyone but Martha.

I thought their scenes were well thought out and clearly historically accurate, since the KGB really did this, but I agree with you that it started off funny (and was dropped in sparingly) or just made me roll my eyes like, "Oh, Martha, c'mon now," whenever she bought another of his lines, but now in the last few is just so depressing to watch no matter whose side I view it from. And I'm sure that's probably entirely the point... they're not shy about showing the ugly side of what Philip and Elizabeth do and there's no one this turns out well for. Martha will either be dead or heartbroken. Philip has to invest all this time in pulling the charade off, being with Martha instead of home with his family, and then will certainly feel very guilty for a long time to come for what he's done to this innocent woman.

Plus if it's carried over into Season Two, it will certainly start to affect his family as well, assuming he and Elizabeth eventually reconcile at some point and move back in together. It was easier to pull off when he and Elizabeth were separated (which was right when "Clark"/Martha started sleeping together) because it was either Martha or an empty apartment/motel. Can he really expect to sneak away from the house that many evenings per week without one of the kids catching on? Or Stan seeing him returning late at night and getting curious? Martha would surely expect that a husband would be around with much more frequency than just a boyfriend.
  • 0

#154

thatguy01

thatguy01

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 30, 2013 @ 9:50 PM

Unfortunately, it would be practical for Philip and Elizabeth to reconcile this week, but to keep up the appearance of being separated so Philip can be away from home to maintain the Martha relationship. Blech.

If that scenario lasts more than one episode, we know that the writers hate us very, very much.
  • 0

#155

Floriane0007

Floriane0007

    Channel Surfer

Posted May 1, 2013 @ 8:34 AM

I'm getting confused - by TWOP home page saying "Now that the season is over, etc".

Was that the finale?
  • 0

#156

thatguy01

thatguy01

    Fanatic

Posted May 1, 2013 @ 8:44 AM

Someone must have posted that article too soon. They might have seen an advance copy of the final ep, or wrote it without waiting.

I would stay away from that article til after tonight, because it may have been written by someone who has seen the last ep and knows whether anyone gets killed off in it.
  • 0

#157

Floriane0007

Floriane0007

    Channel Surfer

Posted May 1, 2013 @ 9:20 AM

Thank you VERY MUCH, Thatguy01. I will follow your advice.
  • 0

#158

Pardon My Snark

Pardon My Snark

    Video Archivist

Posted May 1, 2013 @ 1:30 PM

It just wasn't so muc fun anymore and it became more and more uncomfortable to watch him work on Martha and with her increasing desperation and reluctance to see anything right in front of her face it just became sad and depressing. I'm hoping that particular storyline doesn't carry over into Season 2.


I hope the Martha storyline continues for a long time. Spying isn't about fun and games; it's about deception. Spies use lies to infiltrate themselves into people's lives. They gain people's trust, and then they use that trust to bleed everything they know out of them forever. Once the spies no longer need the mark, the mark is disposable.

One of the best and bleakest examples of spy life is when Adam Dorwin asks Elizabeth, "Did my friend send.." [gunshot right through the head]. That line was a killer. Adam thinks his "friend" will help him deal with his grief, but in reality, his "friend" is setting up his assassination.

Philip has to invest all this time in pulling the charade off, being with Martha instead of home with his family, and then will certainly feel very guilty for a long time to come for what he's done to this innocent woman.


One of the great things about the show is that it shows the personal cost of being a spy. Some spies accept those costs as part of the job (Elizabeth and Stan), some are troubled by it (Philip), and some can't handle it so they quit (Irina).

I hope Philip doesn't end his relationship with Martha just because it takes away time from his kids or because he feels guilty. That would be boring. It's much more interesting to see Philip continue doing his job despite his qualms.
  • 0

#159

Hal25

Hal25

    Couch Potato

Posted May 1, 2013 @ 4:33 PM

Unfortunately, it would be practical for Philip and Elizabeth to reconcile this week, but to keep up the appearance of being separated so Philip can be away from home to maintain the Martha relationship. Blech. If that scenario lasts more than one episode, we know that the writers hate us very, very much.


I could live with that possibility. At least it would be better than all the missed signals and "I love you, but will lie about it whenever the topic comes up" interactions we've witnessed for the last few.

One of the great things about the show is that it shows the personal cost of being a spy. Some spies accept those costs as part of the job (Elizabeth and Stan), some are troubled by it (Philip), and some can't handle it so they quit (Irina). I hope Philip doesn't end his relationship with Martha just because it takes away time from his kids or because he feels guilty. That would be boring. It's much more interesting to see Philip continue doing his job despite his qualms.


I do like how authentically they've done the Martha storyline. If they do continue it, I'll survive despite not enjoying her character, but I do hope it will be done more sparingly than the last episode. I can handle one short scene of Martha per episode for plot purposes, but more than that, or those awful sex scenes, takes up screen time I'd rather see on other story arcs. I'm also not sure how many different times we can watch a scene of Martha being pathetic and painfully naive without it getting old. It's all "Clark's" doing, and I do feel sorry for Martha, but that doesn't make her character any more enjoyable to watch for me, especially since the scenes aren't really going anywhere different.
  • 0

#160

thatguy01

thatguy01

    Fanatic

Posted May 1, 2013 @ 5:50 PM

I hope Philip doesn't end his relationship with Martha just because it takes away time from his kids or because he feels guilty. That would be boring. It's much more interesting to see Philip continue doing his job despite his qualms.


I suspect there's a natural lifespan to relationships like Philip/Martha, and Philip has burned most of it because he was desperate to get the bug into Gaad's office. "Clark" doesn't have a deep background story like "Philip" and can't stand any public scrutiny. Philip can't even let Martha have a picture for her desk, because of Stan. No matter how dopey Martha herself may be, the "Clark" identity certainly would be exposed by routine acts like filing taxes. It's a different kind of risk than the Jennings identity, which is pretty safe except for the risk of being caught doing actual spy stuff.
  • 1

#161

Hal25

Hal25

    Couch Potato

Posted May 1, 2013 @ 6:16 PM

I suspect there's a natural lifespan to relationships like Philip/Martha, and Philip has burned most of it because he was desperate to get the bug into Gaad's office. "Clark" doesn't have a deep background story like "Philip" and can't stand any public scrutiny. Philip can't even let Martha have a picture for her desk, because of Stan. No matter how dopey Martha herself may be, the "Clark" identity certainly would be exposed by routine acts like filing taxes. It's a different kind of risk than the Jennings identity, which is pretty safe except for the risk of being caught doing actual spy stuff.


This is what I was wondering... I understand they want to keep using Martha for information as long as they can, but at what point does that become too big a risk for Philip to assume? One little mistake and that's it for him, Elizabeth and the kids. Given that she hesitated about the bug in Gaad's office, and freaked out and made a pro/con list means she's starting to have doubts, even if she did ultimately marry "Clark." How much farther can Philip really take this before every visit to her apartment risks him walking in to a room full of FBI agents because Martha got that goofy grin and let something slip at work?

I don't know any specifics about the KGB guys who did this in real life, except that I believe they were over in Europe... but I would guess they probably used their real cover identities to do it, rather than make up an alias like Philip has done with "Clark." It would be easier to pull off a marriage to a secretary to get information in the long term if you didn't have to worry about having another cover to maintain as a regular guy (let alone before you add in the kids.)
  • 1

#162

thatguy01

thatguy01

    Fanatic

Posted May 1, 2013 @ 6:27 PM

I haven't seen Philip indicate that he knows how precarious the Martha relationship is, but he's quite rightly focused on keeping Elizabeth and the kids as safe as possible in the short term, which means keeping the bug going. I expect that he'll deal with it after the meet with the colonel, which probably means finding an exit ASAP.
  • 0

#163

Hal25

Hal25

    Couch Potato

Posted May 1, 2013 @ 6:55 PM

I haven't seen Philip indicate that he knows how precarious the Martha relationship is, but he's quite rightly focused on keeping Elizabeth and the kids as safe as possible in the short term, which means keeping the bug going. I expect that he'll deal with it after the meet with the colonel, which probably means finding an exit ASAP.


No, I think right now all their attention would be on the meet with the colonel. Despite any risk his interactions with Martha pose, this particular mission is clearly much more dangerous and they need every advantage they can get.

I do think Philip would've picked up that Martha can be something of a wild card at times, which makes it risky. He was very clear that they couldn't tell anyone, and then she surprised him with her parents, grinning from ear to ear like springing them on him was the greatest thing in the world, even after they'd already agreed not to tell anyone. How long before she decides to slip a little and share something with a girlfriend, or wants to take a picture of them together?
  • 0

#164

bluedevilblue

bluedevilblue

    Stalker

Posted Jul 23, 2013 @ 8:00 AM

Philip has to invest all this time in pulling the charade off, being with Martha instead of home with his family, and then will certainly feel very guilty for a long time to come for what he's done to this innocent woman.

 

 

I've seen nothing that makes me believe Philip feels guilty about Martha.  If anything, he seems to have contempt for her, at least that's my read. Maybe when the time comes and he or Elizabeth has to kill her, he'll feel guilty - and really unless she wakes up and goes to the authorities first, I'm not sure how else this could end. 

 

Having said that I think Martha serves an important purpose which is to show that in his own way, Phillip can be not only an effective spy, but every bit of cold blooded as Elizabeth.  In some ways, it's more humane to just shoot the guard in the head, if you know what I mean.  And I think one of the reasons why I find myself blaming Martha - which is really victim blaming and is unfair because even if she is desperate and pathetic, that doesn't mean Phillip is right to be doing this to her - is that I don't want to hate Phillip.  Well that and the actress just annoys the crap out of me for some reason (although maybe it's the one-note writing).

 

And I can't remember (I've been binge watching), is this the episode where they bring up Nicaragua?  Because I really hope Latin America and the goings on there play a part in the series.  There are few places during the 1980s where America's actions contradicted its purported ideals more than in Latin America.  Augusto Pinochet anyone?


Edited by bluedevilblue, Jul 23, 2013 @ 8:05 AM.

  • 1

#165

Hal25

Hal25

    Couch Potato

Posted Jul 23, 2013 @ 11:19 AM

I've seen nothing that makes me believe Philip feels guilty about Martha.  If anything, he seems to have contempt for her, at least that's my read. Maybe when the time comes and he or Elizabeth has to kill her, he'll feel guilty - and really unless she wakes up and goes to the authorities first, I'm not sure how else this could end.

 

I guess I read Philip's reaction to Martha as more annoyance. Like he seems annoyed and disgusted at the idea of having to be with her sexually, and exasperated and annoyed by some of the dingbat things she does, like calling to say there's some urgent situation and then it's a surprise lunch with her parents when he'd been clear no one could know about them--frankly that would've been annoying girlfriend behavior even if he hadn't been a spy. I would also theorize that just like Elizabeth probably gets herself into a "it's all for the Motherland" place before sleeping with a mark, Philip probably plays some head games with himself too... gets into character to the point where he can tell himself it's "Clark" doing these things, not Philip. I think he would try not to feel guilty about it, but since Philip is shown as empathizing so easily with others, I don't see how that wouldn't eventually creep in.

 

Well that and the actress just annoys the crap out of me for some reason (although maybe it's the one-note writing).

 

For me it's definitely the one-note writing. The actress didn't annoy me at all the first part of the season, but all they gave her to do the second half was loud orgasms, clueless nodding and big blinky eyes. I'm not sure what else she could've done with that, but I had the same reaction by the end of the season, "Oh, good grief, not Martha again." Hopefully they'll freshen it up a little for the second season.


Edited by Hal25, Jul 23, 2013 @ 11:21 AM.

  • 1

#166

Sister Magpie

Sister Magpie

    Fanatic

Posted Jul 23, 2013 @ 12:02 PM

I've seen nothing that makes me believe Philip feels guilty about Martha.  If anything, he seems to have contempt for her, at least that's my read. Maybe when the time comes and he or Elizabeth has to kill her, he'll feel guilty - and really unless she wakes up and goes to the authorities first, I'm not sure how else this could end. 

 

I don't get the sense it's strong enough for contempt--or personal enough for contempt. He's doing his job, and his job, as you say, is one that's cold-blooded and frankly cruel. He's doing exactly what he'd be doing if he was a con-artist. He's doing it for a "higher purpose" but it's still a nasty business. So I get the sense that he doesn't like doing it--he's not getting off on the sex or on tricking Martha. And I think that some of that does spill over into being annoyed at Martha herself, at all the time he has to spend with her, and maybe, yes, how she's letting herself be tricked by him. I don't think he has personal animosity towards her and I do think that after this is over he probably will feel guilty since he does seem to objectively understand when he's doing something wrong--like when he was shaking after he threatened to kill Viola's son. But right now I think any guilt he feels probably does get channeled into annoyance at the situation and a little at Martha. 

 

Maybe we're both saying the same thing. I think Philip absolutely gets himself to a place where he feels no guilt because he feels no anything--he just goes dead-eyed and does what he's supposed to do. But I think that's more about him feeling like he's doing what he has to do rather than him genuinely not understanding that he's hurting an innocent person, or him being okay with or enjoying hurting an innocent person. He has empathy, iow, but he can suppress that for his job, maybe rationalize it. If he was feeling guilty all throughout the process of their affair I don't think he'd be able to do it. It would make sense for him to not feel it until he actually had to kill her--not, I don't think, because he thinks only the murder would be worth guilt, but because it would be neater for him emotionally. 


  • 2

#167

thatguy01

thatguy01

    Fanatic

Posted Jul 23, 2013 @ 12:38 PM

Actually, if Philip were just doing his job and following orders, he'd simply let Elizabeth go to the meeting instead of looking for reasons not to do it.

 

He looked like he had a mouthful of bees when he said Martha could plant the bug that might save Elizabeth.  I think he knew how far he was going to go, and that he was committing himself to destroying Martha for the chance to save Elizabeth from herself and from the pig headed ness of the KGB.


  • 1

#168

Sister Magpie

Sister Magpie

    Fanatic

Posted Jul 23, 2013 @ 12:53 PM

He looked like he had a mouthful of bees when he said Martha could plant the bug that might save Elizabeth.  I think he knew how far he was going to go, and that he was committing himself to destroying Martha for the chance to save Elizabeth from herself and from the pig headed ness of the KGB.

 

Good point. Though probably in Philip's heart at this point, that's his job. His true calling, as it were!


  • 2

#169

Hal25

Hal25

    Couch Potato

Posted Jul 23, 2013 @ 1:47 PM

Actually, if Philip were just doing his job and following orders, he'd simply let Elizabeth go to the meeting instead of looking for reasons not to do it.

 

He looked like he had a mouthful of bees when he said Martha could plant the bug that might save Elizabeth.  I think he knew how far he was going to go, and that he was committing himself to destroying Martha for the chance to save Elizabeth from herself and from the pig headed ness of the KGB.

 

That's fair. I think Philip is okay with doing the job and following orders... to a point. Like, I think he believes in what he's doing, just to a lesser extent than Elizabeth. So he's okay with following orders to the point of executing the con on Martha, but not up to the point where Elizabeth or his children are put in danger. And Elizabeth is willing to defy orders too... just her line is pushed farther back than Philip's in some cases, or maybe just she thinks differently about how she can justify things to herself. Like Philip's hot button is his wife/kids, but hers is usually things she can excuse from a mission sense: "Zhukov deserves to be avenged. Gregory deserved to go out his own way." Timoshev was really the only one that I can think of offhand where it was personal, but really it was Philip who made that decision and she just covered for him.

 

And I think they were kind of in a bind with the KGB on the Colonel. They could've flat-out refused to do it, but then what would the result have been? Can they really refuse orders that many times in a row (and for something big, not just Gregory dying in a different way) and expect not to get pulled from the field (which screws things up for the kids too)? So that one I can't really peg on Elizabeth. Her choices were going through with it or going on the run.


  • 1

#170

thatguy01

thatguy01

    Fanatic

Posted Jul 23, 2013 @ 2:02 PM

Which brings us back to the elephant in the room that Elizabeth won't acknowledge.  :-)


  • 1

#171

bluedevilblue

bluedevilblue

    Stalker

Posted Jul 23, 2013 @ 4:20 PM

Is that her "end game" or lack of one? Or something else?  Because I suspect she does have an end game, which is to get her kids grown and on their own before she's captured, dies, or goes back to the USSR.  She hasn't said that, but I think it's the only thing that would make sense.  Think of the mother in Running On Empty, whose plan was simply to stay on the run until her kids were grown.  Because that's the thing about kids, they aren't kids forever. 

 

Also, realistically, I don't think a whole lot of KGB spies who were of actual Soviet origin did a lot of time in prison.  I don't remember any trials, although maybe I'm forgetting some but the "spies" I can think of that actually went away after a trial were all Americans spying for other countries (e.g., Robert Hanson).  I think countries are generally harsh on their own citizens turning on them, but spies often get traded back home.  The real suburban spies were expelled, IIRC.  Afterall, you expect Soviet citizens to spy for the Soviets.  Just as the Soviets expect Americans to spy for the U.S.  So I think it's much more likely that this ends with her 1) death, 2) defection, 3) return to Moscow, whether voluntarily, as part of a trade, or because she's in trouble.  Her whole concern about trial and an American jail, while certainly possible, I think is probably the least likely long term outcome based on my admittedly foggy memory of the cold war in the 80s.

 

This brings me to Nina.  She's much safer now that she's a triple agent.  The Soviets aren't going to kill her now so long as she stays loyal to them.  What are the Americans going to do - she's always been KGB at the embassy.  Those folks are usually just expelled when caught spying.  Is the US seriously going to charge a Soviet embassy worker, which everyone knows has KGB among them just as, I suspect, the Moscow US embassy had CIA agents, with sleeping with and trying to turn an FBI agent?  Doesn't that mean they have to make all of that public?  And isn't it more or less part of the game?  I'm trying to think of a "spying" case where it was the foreign government's embassy worker and they were prosecuted and spent a long time in jail (again, I could be forfetting someone).  I guess they could kill her like they did Vlad, but logically I think she's actually pretty safe as spies goes in her current position or at least safer than she has been all season.    


  • 1

#172

thatguy01

thatguy01

    Fanatic

Posted Jul 23, 2013 @ 4:37 PM

 

Is that her "end game" or lack of one? Or something else?  Because I suspect she does have an end game, which is to get her kids grown and on their own before she's captured, dies, or goes back to the USSR.  She hasn't said that, but I think it's the only thing that would make sense. 

 

Yes, I think Elizabeth is just hoping that the kids will be grown and able to be on their own if necessary before she has to make her life choices.  Aside from that, I don't think she has a plan.


Edited by thatguy01, Jul 23, 2013 @ 5:07 PM.

  • 1

#173

bluedevilblue

bluedevilblue

    Stalker

Posted Jul 23, 2013 @ 6:19 PM

I think that's right.  I assume the KGB plan is to use them as long as possible and then, in a perfect world, exfiltrate (what a fun word!) them like they offered to do for Gregory. 


  • 2

#174

Hal25

Hal25

    Couch Potato

Posted Jul 23, 2013 @ 6:22 PM

Is that her "end game" or lack of one? Or something else?  Because I suspect she does have an end game, which is to get her kids grown and on their own before she's captured, dies, or goes back to the USSR.  She hasn't said that, but I think it's the only thing that would make sense.  Think of the mother in Running On Empty, whose plan was simply to stay on the run until her kids were grown.  Because that's the thing about kids, they aren't kids forever.

 

I suspect Elizabeth does a lot of lying to herself, or at least had to start once she got to the point where the kids began to matter to her. Like, I'm sure it was easier to say they were just for cover (and didn't matter) when it was time to get pregnant, but once they were there and little people she grew to love, I think the conflict started to grow.

 

I would imagine her fantasy end game when she started to care about them, but they were small and without opinions of their own was probably that they'd eventually return to the Soviet Union... and that the kids would be okay with it because they would share the same values as her and come to understand how much better it was there after awhile. But then the older the kids get, the more that fantasy just isn't going to work even as a fantasy. They are so far American, she can say, "I'm not finished with them yet," all she wants, but it's clearly far from happening. So you can see her giving in little by little. Paige is allowed to pierce her ears, get a bra.

 

So now going back to the USSR is out. She now cares about Philip and the kids, so dying for the cause is no longer this noble, romantic idea, and going back to Russia at all means either leaving the kids behind and not seeing them again, or having miserable, angry, destroyed children who don't speak the language and hate her for having done this to them. Defecting and staying in the USA as Americans seems unbearable. So I think she kind of lies to herself about the danger and tells herself they can keep spying indefinitely and not be caught, that Paige and Henry won't ever find out. Philip has come to face the truth sooner than she has that the chances of this are very, very low.


  • 1

#175

John Potts

John Potts

    Fanatic

Posted Aug 22, 2013 @ 6:03 AM

So, big ructions on either side - the FBI know about the clock (and good on the maid for coming clean - she has to know the FBI could come down on her like a ton of bricks for that) and the KGB know about Nina. I did love that (unlike discovering the stolen codes) the response of the Feds was not to immediately plug the leak but to instead "feed the mole" (use a known compromised channel to feed false intel to your enemy) - we'll see if the KGB are similarly savvy when it comes to Nina (I suspect they are).

 

 

Cardie "Till death do us part." Yeah, Martha, that may be prophetic.

 

 

I'm not a fan of Martha, but I can't see any exit for her but her death. I suppose it's possible that "Clark" could fake his death, though they'd have to supply a body to do so (fortunately they were no DNA tests the FBI could run at this time). I still can't get past the fact that it's simply impossible over the long term for Martha to not realise that Clark wears a wig and so she ought to start wondering why he conceals his identity (sure, it could be simple vanity, but given her position she should at least consider if there are other reasons). Though there's plenty of self delusion around:

 

 

Bitter Cocoa Absolute highlight - Granny and Elizabeth playing mother and daughter, and mother and sister to Clark. The resemblance was uncanny. Hee.

 

 

...which was a true indication of the way people are prepared to believe what they want to believe (and hey, their wigs were the same!)

 

 

Boundary Granny said the intel is so valuable that no one could possibly use it as a trap and I think that's exactly the point.

 

 

I thought what Granny said was that the prize was so valuable, they simply had to take the risk even if it was a trap. Elizabeth countered that it wouldn't be Granny that was taking the risk, but them (Philizabeth), although she didn't exactly disagree with the sentiment.

 

 

Thatguy01 Yes, I think Elizabeth is just hoping that the kids will be grown and able to be on their own if necessary before she has to make her life choices.

 

 

…or she thinks by the time the kids are grown, the USA will have undergone the collapse of capitalism. Sure, it didn't happen, but she's a true believer who is convinced that Communism has history on its side and it's the USA that will inevitably collapse.


  • 0

#176

Hal25

Hal25

    Couch Potato

Posted Aug 22, 2013 @ 6:39 AM

…or she thinks by the time the kids are grown, the USA will have undergone the collapse of capitalism. Sure, it didn't happen, but she's a true believer who is convinced that Communism has history on its side and it's the USA that will inevitably collapse.

 

That's an interesting point, and one I'd never considered before. Do you think Elizabeth would be happy living in the US (forever) if it was different politically, but still the US? On the flip side of that (and even more fascinating to me, since we know how history turns out), if the Soviet Union were to collapse, and become not what it was she's been fighting for this whole time, would that lessen her connection to it? Or perhaps this is just yet another comforting lie she tells herself to stay focused and avoid thinking about impending realities.

 

I'm not a fan of Martha, but I can't see any exit for her but her death. I suppose it's possible that "Clark" could fake his death, though they'd have to supply a body to do so (fortunately they were no DNA tests the FBI could run at this time). I still can't get past the fact that it's simply impossible over the long term for Martha to not realise that Clark wears a wig and so she ought to start wondering why he conceals his identity (sure, it could be simple vanity, but given her position she should at least consider if there are other reasons). Though there's plenty of self delusion around.

 

Would they need to supply a body? Maybe "Clark" kills himself in a gruesome way and there is no viewing. Martha would not be the first person called if something happens to "Clark" because no one is supposed to know they are fake-married. In fact, no one would know to call Martha except for "Alexandra" and "Jennifer." I think having a body she could get close to and realize there are differences between the body and the man she's been sleeping with all this time would ruin the ruse anyway.

 

IMHO, they run a risk either way. If they kill Martha, they have to kill the parents to make sure no one mentions "Clark", and then that starts looking fishy, unless they can arrange for them to visit and everyone has a car accident together. As we saw in the second half of the season, it's better for both sides when they don't start killing people off since that has repercussions. Probably Philip and Elizabeth are extra sensitive to that now and also want to avoid the FBI getting hot on their trail again. It probably all hinges on what point they have to extricate Philip from Martha and how much Martha suspects at that point. If she starts getting a clue and suspecting "Clark" he may have to kill her immediately. If her usefulness dries up (which is hard to imagine unless she left the FBI office) and she doesn't suspect anything, he could do some sort of fake death.


  • 0

#177

John Potts

John Potts

    Fanatic

Posted Aug 31, 2013 @ 10:52 AM

Well since you asked... 

 

 

Hal25  Do you think Elizabeth would be happy living in the US (forever) if it was different politically, but still the US?

 

 

Even if the USA became the USSA*  I'd have thought she'd want to go home to the Motherland, like any other victorious soldier. Of course, the kids complicate things somewhat.

 

 

Hal25 Would they need to supply a body?

 

 

I think so. If "Clark" vanishes, Martha will go looking for him and (if she's desperate enough) will come clean to her bosses. Having a body provides "closure" and prevents that (though since it'd be a fake, there is the problem of being exposed as a fraud). It's pretty much which you think is the greater risk.

 

* United Soviet States of America


  • 0