Jump to content

6-4: "To Have And to Hold" 2013.04.21 (recap)


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.

656 replies to this topic

#631

Geeni

Geeni

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Female

Posted Apr 26, 2013 @ 12:59 PM

Harry and Don needed to take a few seats.

Well, Jessica and Megan have another thing in common- neither can act.

#632

rogaine2233

rogaine2233

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 26, 2013 @ 1:06 PM

Now that I've written it, I do kind of wonder if Weiner is modeling Megan's relationship to her soap job on Pare's relationship with her job on Mad Men. "OMG - I'm working as an actress!" - but the lowest on the totem pole.


If you caught any of the Paley Center panel from this week, that was EXACTLY her demeanor.

#633

Birdhee

Birdhee

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 26, 2013 @ 2:52 PM

This is one of my biggest disappointments with the direction/evolution of Don's overall story. He didn't have to grow into Mr. Nice Guy but I wanted to see his character make interesting choices, even if they were misteps, that kept up intrigued. A rebound marriage and subsequent affair are not interesting life choices. Dare I blame it all on MW falling in love with the poor actress that is Jessica Pare and writing a second marriage story around her?


But I think the self-improvement kick he went on in "The Summer Man" was intended to be short-lived, and whether what he's done since then is interesting or not, it is making a point about him. Below:

I think there were some inconsistencies and wobbles with how the Megan thing came to be. At the time Megan was hovering on the periphery, SCDP seemed as if it might be insecure financially. Don's accountant said something like 'Don't you want that steak on the table?" Weiner or someone else (Hamm?) said that with work unstable Don wanted at least to get his personal life nailed down.

So that paints a picture of a guy who is looking for Mary Poppins, sexy version who cooks. Megan goes with him to California and that's who she is or how he sees her. Cue the engagement. Personal life nailed down!


Another thing Weiner said about the finale of S4 is that it's Don at a crossroads represented by the two women, and there's Faye who is encouraging him to make difficult changes, resolve his issues, be a person like the rest of us, and Megan who seems uncomplicated and offers instant gratification and acceptance As I Am. Weiner compared Faye to an elephant and Megan to...some animal that moves faster. A hare? I don't remember. I remembered the elephant part because he hastened to add he wasn't saying Faye/Cara Buono was an elephant.

So Don chose the easy way, and Weiner was sympathetic to that. I'd argue that the whole setup is unnecessarily binary, because Don didn't have to be with either of these women, but there you are. I respect it more in retrospect than I did at the time. It does fit with my increasingly hardened view of Don/Dick as someone who doesn't work particularly hard at anything, and usually doesn't have to. All inspiration, no perspiration.

But I'm still not there with respecting the structure or execution of S5.

When they say Dawn's name, it sounds so much like Don, it's disorienting. Some characters pronounce it "Dahn" rather than DaWn so it's practically identical.


I don't think they sound any more alike than the first syllables of "con artist" and "sawmill," but I'm sure that's going to cause someone to say, "I pronounce con and saw exactly the same way, and everyone else I know does too." Maybe it really is regional.

However, I've noticed, amusingly, that sometimes people write "Don" when they mean "Dawn," when posting about the show. Someone wrote in one of the episode threads, "I find Don to be such a breath of fresh air," and I was pretty confused by the whole paragraph until female pronouns started popping up.

#634

Sister Magpie

Sister Magpie

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 26, 2013 @ 3:20 PM

However, I've noticed, amusingly, that sometimes people write "Don" when they mean "Dawn," when posting about the show. Someone wrote in one of the episode threads, "I find Don to be such a breath of fresh air," and I was pretty confused by the whole paragraph until female pronouns started popping up.


I totally suspect this is me--and I don't even pronounce them the same way!

#635

Constantinople

Constantinople

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 26, 2013 @ 3:22 PM

I've been assuming that this is leading to an end to the marriage. If it's instead an end to Megan's career and a new little Draper, that's going to be one messed up little kid.


How can Don cheat on his wife if he's not married?

#636

HickoryColt

HickoryColt

    Stalker

Posted Apr 26, 2013 @ 3:48 PM

One other funny part of this episode was when HArry first walks into the meeting, someone tries to stop him from saying anything and Roger says something like "No wait....let him talk", because he seems to know this is bound to be pretty good watching Harry make a fool of himself. He wants to see it, just has to watch the train wreck he knows is coming.

It reminded me of last season when Pete got punched by Lane and he made a similar comment. He knew something bad was coming but let it happen because he found it amusing.

#637

Cherith

Cherith

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Female

Posted Apr 26, 2013 @ 4:04 PM

I don't think they sound any more alike than the first syllables of "con artist" and "sawmill," but I'm sure that's going to cause someone to say, "I pronounce con and saw exactly the same way, and everyone else I know does too." Maybe it really is regional.


I do not say con and saw the same and I think that is a really good analogy. But I do pronounce Don and Dawn the same, which from this board I understand is not the correct regional prononciation for New England, the region I was raised in.

I might be the only one I know who does so because it just doesn't really come up that much in casual conversation. It is pretty rare that you and a guy named Don are going somewhere at dawn. And, even if, most Dons in Boston are Donnies so, while the first syllabals are the same, you don't notice the similar words as much.

How can Don cheat on his wife if he's not married?


He is supposed to be creative!

One other funny part of this episode was when HArry first walks into the meeting, someone tries to stop him from saying anything and Roger says something like "No wait....let him talk", because he seems to know this is bound to be pretty good watching Harry make a fool of himself. He wants to see it, just has to watch the train wreck he knows is coming.


Ha, Joan was about to tell Harry she hadn't brought it up with the other partners. And Roger stopped her because he knew it would be great.

I loved that. And I liked that Bert, Don and Roger's attitude about it after was basically "who cares what Harry thinks" and moved on with a little mocking of him.

Edited by Cherith, Apr 26, 2013 @ 4:24 PM.


#638

peeayebee

peeayebee

    Stalker

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:SoCal

Posted Apr 26, 2013 @ 5:04 PM

One lovely little period detail I don't think anyone's mentioned so far: when Joan is having dinner with her friend and mother, there's a bottle of what looks like Mateus rose, the pretentious wine of my youth. It was imported, after all!

It was brought up before, but actually it's a bottle of Lancers.

And speaking of that scene... The watch that Kate is showing off reminds me of one my mother had. It had a black band, not pink, but the style was the same. I don't know if that kind of watch is made anymore. Anyway, it made me think of my mom.

#639

RealityJunkie10

RealityJunkie10

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 26, 2013 @ 9:31 PM

Quote

One other funny part of this episode was when HArry first walks into the meeting, someone tries to stop him from saying anything and Roger says something like "No wait....let him talk", because he seems to know this is bound to be pretty good watching Harry make a fool of himself. He wants to see it, just has to watch the train wreck he knows is coming.


Ha, Joan was about to tell Harry she hadn't brought it up with the other partners. And Roger stopped her because he knew it would be great.

I loved that. And I liked that Bert, Don and Roger's attitude about it after was basically "who cares what Harry thinks" and moved on with a little mocking of him.


Harry has gotten caught like that before after he was mocking Megan's performance. He assumed she had gone to Don or Roger as I remember. I think Roger took advantage of the moment somehow. Roger :)

#640

RedHawk

RedHawk

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 27, 2013 @ 10:00 AM

To Don, in the elevator, he says, "Iím Bob Benson. Iím upstairs in Accounts. Beloit College, Wharton MBA, Secor, Mohawk, Secor, Life Cereal. You know, but just in the outfield."


Thanks, Peeayebee, for clarifying that.

But I'm more interested in Bob than anything else at this point.


I think I feel the same. Don's "who the hell is this guy?" reactions crack me up.

#641

txhorns79

txhorns79

    Stalker

  • Location:Philadelphia, PA
  • Interests:Lawyering.

Posted Apr 27, 2013 @ 10:14 AM

My objection is time cards have never before been mentioned as part of the culture at SCDP, where there's been quite a lot of focus on secretaries. No secretary, not even as an aside, has worried before about punching out early, punching out late, or taking too long a lunch. Timecards were just shoehorned in this season for plot point purposes, and I don't believe it.

It's entirely possible that because the office has grown substantially since last season that the timecards are a new thing. Joan could keep an eye on the secretaries when there were only three or four of them and everyone was on the same floor, as opposed to now where she has other duties and there are too many people for her to watch all the time.

Maybe Megan finds out and throws him out. He suggests to Sylvia that they can be together. Then Megan finds out she is pregnant and they get back together. Sylvia's words about not having an abortion bite her.

I think that's a little too much like Betty trying again with Don after she found out she was pregnant in Season 2.

#642

oceanblue

oceanblue

    Stalker

Posted Apr 27, 2013 @ 11:38 AM

I was in the Megan thread talking about Pare's bad acting, specifically about the crying in the laundry room. It occurred to me that it could be that Megan actually knows about Don and Sylvia and was playing Sylvia. The crying seemed so fake it's hard to believe that the director wouldn't make her do it over. I think she only "cried" because Sylvia walked in. I will be so psyched if Megan has more to her than what we see.

#643

biakbiak

biakbiak

    Stalker

  • Gender:Female

Posted Apr 27, 2013 @ 1:46 PM

My objection is time cards have never before been mentioned as part of the culture at SCDP, where there's been quite a lot of focus on secretaries. No secretary, not even as an aside, has worried before about punching out early, punching out late, or taking too long a lunch. Timecards were just shoehorned in this season for plot point purposes, and I don't believe it.


It's entirely possible that because the office has grown substantially since last season that the timecards are a new thing. Joan could keep an eye on the secretaries when there were only three or four of them and everyone was on the same floor, as opposed to now where she has other duties and there are too many people for her to watch all the time.


It's also entirely possible that time cards haven't been mentioned because there was not a plot point revolving around them and I don't find that odd or a sudden plot contrivance, there are tons of stuff about the administration of SCDP that we either don't know about or don't discover until there is a reason for us to learn about it..

Edited by biakbiak, Apr 27, 2013 @ 1:47 PM.


#644

YellowJacket

YellowJacket

    Couch Potato

  • Gender:Female

Posted Apr 27, 2013 @ 4:01 PM

I noticed today on third-watch that Megan says to Don "you ruined it" when she's crying about him coming to watch her love scene. That echoes back to Betty's smackdown in the kitchen saying "you ruined all this". I hope this is a signal that it's OVER. I don't mind JP so much, but Megan's story has stalled the narrative. Will she find out about Sylvia? Yes. Now, let's move on, go to Reno again, and go on to some more soul-shattering hypocrisy.

#645

Rosebud1970

Rosebud1970

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 28, 2013 @ 4:47 AM

Harry is a boob. I say this as someone who has spent her entire career in media. Harry is a boob. However...

Back before the advent of the media only agencies, when media, creative and account service were all bundled together, media never got any respect. Even though it was media that brought in all the income. When you read about an account moving to a new agency, with a value of so many millions in billings, all that money is in the media that's purchased. Nowadays, clients may pay fees, rather than commissions, but those fees are based on a blend of payroll costs and other overhead, including staffing time to service the account, including planning and buying media.

But back in 1968, everything was bundled together, agencies made a full 15% commission on the media and that paid all the bills.

We got so tired of being disrespected, we used to call ourselves Media Sluts.

WRT Joan. As long as she sees herself as the Office Manager (little more than a glorified head secretary), then everyone else will continue to pigeonhole her into that role, as well. She's a partner, she must act like one. She needs to learn how to seize her power. Firing Harry's secretary was a huge blunder. She should have reviewed what she did wrong with her first, then gone to Harry and discussed it with him prior to taking any action. Again, Harry is a boob. But she needs allies, not enemies. And she needs an office, a real one. And a title. CFO, maybe? People won't see you as you want to be seen until you see yourself there first.

#646

txhorns79

txhorns79

    Stalker

  • Location:Philadelphia, PA
  • Interests:Lawyering.

Posted Apr 28, 2013 @ 7:39 AM

As long as she sees herself as the Office Manager (little more than a glorified head secretary), then everyone else will continue to pigeonhole her into that role, as well. She's a partner, she must act like one.

I guess my question would be: "What is a partner supposed to act like in Joan's case?" I mean, Joan doesn't have the leverage that any of the other partners does to get what she wants, for example, a book of business, or creative expertise. She also doesn't have the gravitas of someone like Cooper. And it isn't as though being a partner means you can clomp around the office issuing orders to people who don't really work for you (i.e. she can't demand creative change a campaign if Don isn't on board with her idea, or tell the junior account people how to handle the clients if the other partners don't agree.)

#647

Inquisitionist

Inquisitionist

    Stalker

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Midwest US

Posted Apr 28, 2013 @ 8:31 AM

I guess my question would be: "What is a partner supposed to act like in Joan's case?"


I think that is exactly the question that Joan needs to answer.

Back when the show opened, there were only three partners in the office: Bert and Roger. (Bert's sister, we learned in Ep. 2-12, also held an ownership interest, but was not involved in business decisions, other than the very macro decision to sell SC to PPL). Then they made Don a partner. He already had a great deal of authority as Creative Directory (which he remained), but he also become responsible for other decisions, such as hiring Duck. At the end of S2, Duck (as head of accounts) is pressing for partnership in SC, but Roger says he doesn't really see the case for this.

SCDP started out with 5 partners, largely because Pete and Lane would only come along to the new firm with that carrot. We see the 5 of them making/voting on decisions in meetings, but each has a pretty clearly defined sphere of responsibility as well. Joan's situation is vastly different, and she has no direct role models.

#648

peeayebee

peeayebee

    Stalker

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:SoCal

Posted Apr 28, 2013 @ 9:41 AM

It is a very interesting question. Since Joan seems to have realized that she needs to hand off her secretarial-type duties and present herself as a real partner, not a supporting player, I wonder if she'll try to figure out on her own what she can contribute or if she'll ask one of the partners, perhaps Bert, for mentoring.

If she's not going to be the office manager, who will? She gave a couple of responsibilities to Dawn, but I can't imagine Dawn actually getting the title, not just because she's black, but also because of her being recently hired. Of course she may acquire the responsibilities but not the title.

#649

Dejana

Dejana

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 28, 2013 @ 10:30 AM

It seems that a new office manager should have been hired ages ago. Joan handling traffic as well as office manager duties was plausible enough at first because the new SCDP didn't have a lot of money. IIRC Joan took over some of Lane's duties while he went back to England to deal with his family situation, but that was just temporary. Since his death, though wouldn't she have permanently been the one to handle many (if not all) of his former responsibilities? I know she's efficient but there are only so many hours in a work day; wouldn't she have hit the wall a few weeks into trying juggle everything or is she supposed to be a superwoman?

Edited by Dejana, Apr 28, 2013 @ 10:32 AM.


#650

MikeSmith70

MikeSmith70

    Just Tuned In

Posted Apr 28, 2013 @ 2:48 PM

[cross-post from Joan thread; please delete if this is too duplicative, just wanted more relevant feedback]

I just published an article exploring Harry's outburt against Joan in the partners' meeting:

http://nowso.com/mad...-call-out-joan/

I was initially disgusted with Harry, but after thinking about it, I have a bit more empathy for him. He's an under-appreciated corporate minion, and Joan's rise to partner was a little unsavory.

I'm really curious to hear what other viewers' reactions to this scene were.

Edited by MikeSmith70, Apr 28, 2013 @ 2:49 PM.


#651

WaltzinSpringTm

WaltzinSpringTm

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 28, 2013 @ 4:03 PM

I, also, have empathy for Harry.

However, where Joan's partnership is concerned, she doesn't have a book of business, but she does have one piece of business. Jaguar. She brought that in. The others wanted it badly enough to give her a partnership if she'd just sleep with Herb, no guarantees Herb wouldn't go back on his word. She didn't just fuck somebody who said "give her a partnership". She brought in that account. In business terms, what difference would it be if it turned out that some lower echelon SCDP employee was related to a Jaguar power player who wanted a partnership for him or her as the price of doing business with SCDP?

Dow, for instance, came in thanks to Ken (although Ken didn't demand a partnership for it).

Roger is basically a legacy partner. His dad brought in Lucky Strike. That was the anchor client for years, and Roger's partnership credential. Then it went away, and Roger wasn't voted out as partner. There was no coup - which does happen when a partner's power base erodes or goes away.

Of course nobody there is going to hand Joan her daily responsibilities. She needs to do it herself. What she should really do is suck it up and account manage Jaguar, but I could see that being just impossible.

A long time ago she showed an aptitude for the television department but it never occurred her to ask to be put on a track out of the admin/sec'y category and into TV. Maybe she should revisit with Harry, figure out if that's something she can oversee, and be TV's friend at Court. Lastly, Lane had a role, he's dead - why can't she assume his? Lane wasn't supervising secretarial time cards either.

#652

Fungi Wisdom

Fungi Wisdom

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 28, 2013 @ 5:05 PM

"What is a partner supposed to act like in Joan's case?"


True. Roger already has the job of sitting around drinking, making wise cracks, and doing nothing.

#653

RealityJunkie10

RealityJunkie10

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 28, 2013 @ 5:11 PM

I, also, have empathy for Harry.

However, where Joan's partnership is concerned, she doesn't have a book of business, but she does have one piece of business. Jaguar. She brought that in. The others wanted it badly enough to give her a partnership if she'd just sleep with Herb, no guarantees Herb wouldn't go back on his word. She didn't just fuck somebody who said "give her a partnership". She brought in that account. In business terms, what difference would it be if it turned out that some lower echelon SCDP employee was related to a Jaguar power player who wanted a partnership for him or her as the price of doing business with SCDP?


I don't know I just can't with Harry, it makes sense what you say, but it bothers me for a few reasons

1) Instead of selling himself as a partner, he went and tore Joan down
Instead of going into that office where everyone was meeting and touting his own accomplishments he had to try to pull Joan down. You know what Harry, maybe you could be partner too, but no one is interested in sleeping with you!


2) Joan made a huge sacrifice for the company, whatever she got, she deserves
Does harry think it was great fun for Joan to degrade herself like that. She basically turned herself into a high priced piece of meat. They needed that Jaguar account and she got it for them, she came through by doing something degrading because they really needed that business.

3) He would have never spoken to any of the other partners the way he spoke to Joan
I don't care of Roger Sterling had stripped Harry naked and tarred and feathered his penis Harry would have taken it. I assure you, if Don or Roger or Pete had fired Scarlett, even if they did it in front of everyone he wouldn't have had the stones to say a word to them, but he felt like he could pick on Joan because she is a woman.

4) He demanded more respect for his secretary who has less experience and lied then he bothered to show Joan who is a partner.
No matter what else Harry thought Joans responsibilities were, he likely understood that they included being in charge of the office staff. There is a secretarial pool. If you really were bothered by Joan firing Scarlett, fine - take it up with her later. But Joan wasn't the one who took off 5 hours or however long amount of time. I hope harry realizes that now Scarlett can get away with ANYTHING because everyone is going to make sure he is stuck with her forever.

5) I don't think the way Joan fired Scarlett was all that bad.
She may have been trying to make an example of Scarlett, I mean the girl was physically behind her back making gestures. Either Scarlett thought that was acceptable, or she thought Joan was so stupid she wouldn't notice Dawn looking at this girl right behind you. Either way - I don't know that the late 60s were the same way the work world is today where you have to have two written warnings and there are equal rights and certain things you just can't do in the workplace.

#654

Kweku

Kweku

    Just Tuned In

Posted Apr 29, 2013 @ 1:37 PM

Calico, I know I'm late but:

I love that both Joan and Peggy are shown as bumbling around in their new management roles. It would be completely unrealistic for either one of them to have the first clue how to smoothly make that transition. I remember graduating from college (and this is 20 years later) and coming across a book on that very thing and being mortified at how completely wrong I was going about everything.


Is there any chance you can list the name of said book (or a more recent equivalent) here?

#655

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

    Stalker

Posted Apr 30, 2013 @ 3:23 PM

Back before the advent of the media only agencies, when media, creative and account service were all bundled together, media never got any respect. Even though it was media that brought in all the income. When you read about an account moving to a new agency, with a value of so many millions in billings, all that money is in the media that's purchased. Nowadays, clients may pay fees, rather than commissions, but those fees are based on a blend of payroll costs and other overhead, including staffing time to service the account, including planning and buying media.

But back in 1968, everything was bundled together, agencies made a full 15% commission on the media and that paid all the bills.


This is interesting, but it makes me wonder if there isn't a huge conflict of interest with the media buyers working in the same firm as the rest of the ad firm. I mean like you said basically SCDP gets paid a percentage of the money spent by Dow Chemical on commercials that they buy. But if SCDP (Harry) is the one negotiating how much they pay for commercials (and his company gets paid a percentage of that), how does a client make sure that he is trying to get the cheapest rates? Since if the rates are more expensive SCDP gets paid more.

#656

rogaine2233

rogaine2233

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 30, 2013 @ 4:26 PM

No, the ad budget is the ad budget. If a client is going to spend $5 million a year ( a fortune back then, a pittance now) they would decide (with the agency's input) how to allocate it. So much e for TV, radio, outdoor, print, etc. then media goes and negotiates the buy for each medium. The client also has a budget for production which sometimes can be adjusted if the agency has a hot idea and convinces the client to spend the money. For instance, that Mercedes Benz ad with Willem DaFoe and "Sympathy For The Devil". That had to cost a fortune to produce. Lots of times, an agency will present a great idea and the client will nix the photo shoot, wanting to go with stock photo instead, or not purchase the rights to original music, etc etc etc.

If media takes the budget and negotiates good rates, then the client gets more exposure but the agency still gets the same commission. Unless they dummy the invoices. I caught my agency doing that once and fired them.

Edited by rogaine2233, Apr 30, 2013 @ 4:28 PM.


#657

Muscade

Muscade

    Video Archivist

  • Gender:Female

Posted Jun 5, 2013 @ 7:33 AM

To those who liked the song playing in the "disco", it is indeed "Bonnie and Clyde", by Serge Gainsbourg and Brigitte Bardot (althought I don't remember hearing Bardot in that version).

Interesting tidbits regarding that song : 1) It is supposed to be based on a poem written by Bonnie Parker a few weeks before she and Clive Barrow were shot; 2) the song was written by Serge Gainsbourg to be sung with Bardot, who he was having an affair with at the time, and whom he was apparently quite smitten with (he kept a huge picture of her in his home until his death in 1991, while being married to other partners), but who wouldn't leave her then husband, Gunther Sachs (who committed suicide in 2011); 3) Gainbourg was born Ginsburg in 1928, so the name is the same as another character's on MM.

Don't know if that's relevant to anything else this season (which I'm watching now) but wanted to get that info in in case that was foreshadowing of something later on :-) 

 

One other thing: Saw someone comparing Megan/Don relationship to Marilyn Monroe/Di Maggio, I'd say the comparison for me would be more Marilyn/Arthur Miller (if JP had the charisma to carry it off, that is), makes more sense with a clever but perceived vapid screen star and an intense, much older, writer/intellectual.    


Edited by Muscade, Jun 5, 2013 @ 7:41 AM.