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3-2: "Dark Wings, Dark Words" 2013.04.07


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#271

kieran555

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Posted Apr 13, 2013 @ 8:14 AM

Littlefinger brought [Joffrey] whores and he only wanted to see them beat each othe


I think that was actually Tyrion. Agreed, though, that Joffrey's tastes do not appear to run in a traditional direction.

Edited by kieran555, Apr 14, 2013 @ 3:54 AM.


#272

bluvelvet

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Posted Apr 13, 2013 @ 7:25 PM

I think that was actually Tyrion. Agreed, though, that Joffrey's tastes do not appear to run in a traditional direction.


I agree here, I don't think Joffrey had any sexual interest in Margery until she mentioned him watching her killing something.

When the Reed boy said that he can also see things that have happened in the past, I assume that will come into play somehow, but I just can't figure out how?

#273

kieran555

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Posted Apr 14, 2013 @ 4:01 AM

When the Reed boy said that he can also see things that have happened in the past, I assume that will come into play somehow, but I just can't figure out how?

Perhaps we could see a vision from his perspective?

If it does come into play, I thin it's safe to say the recent history of Westeros is so convoluted that even for bookwalkers a vision into the past would not go amiss to clarify what exactly went down with any number of events.

I've always enjoyed how the show (and books of course), starts more than a decade after a massive societal change, full of little personal events, which provide endless questions which for some we will not likely get an answer and must have fun speculating. It's frustrating sometimes not knowing exactly what went on (more so in show as we don't have time to give more detail anyway), but it's realistic that if such things are private to people or well known, they wouldn't bring it up all the time unless it was to make a point, hence us only learning later on into the story things like that it was Tywin who ordered the Targaryen children killed (as Cat reminded Robb), and in this episode Jojen telling us things about his dad being close to Ned and Bran letting us know Howland Reed saved Ned's life at some point.

And seriously, Jojen said he 'saw' the rebellion; he could clear up a lot of misconceptions for us!

#274

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Posted Apr 14, 2013 @ 12:02 PM

It occurs to me that the person who manages to invent and introduce psychotherapy to Westeros will become a millionaire several times over. Firstly, they'd get rich just head-shrinking the Lannisters alone. Jeffrey is worth a fortune by himself. But, it seems as if Cat could use some therapy sessions, too. She's a big bundle of guilt.

Every time I think I could not despise the character of Cat more, I get shown a new bottom. She actually prayed for a little child to die? Nice. When she told Talia that she was the worst person in the world, I spontaneously said to the screen, "Wow, you really are."

I absolutely do blame her for the way she feels. But for a different father, she or anyone could have been illegitimate, so she knows she can't blame Jon. He can't control who he was born to. I think it's natural to feel angry about the situation, but her anger should have been directed towards Ned. But, Ned was the lord of Winterfell and she was living on his turf. So, she redirected her anger, I think, because Jon was the only one weaker, in her mind, than her. And, that makes her behavior an act of cowardice. Women like Cersei, Margery or Oleanna would have made Ned's life all kinds of hell for cheating. And, they would have gotten away with it, too. Cat obviously just doesn't have what it takes to hit the appropriate target.

I don't think she needed to be a mother to Jon. I don't think that was really her responsibility. But, what got under my skin was that, as shown in their few scenes during Season One, she wasn't even civil to him. That was really inexcusable to me.

#275

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Posted Apr 14, 2013 @ 2:06 PM

Every time I think I could not despise the character of Cat more, I get shown a new bottom. She actually prayed for a little child to die? Nice. When she told Talia that she was the worst person in the world, I spontaneously said to the screen, "Wow, you really are."


The likes of Tywin and Joffrey don't pray for little children to die, they actually kill them, and they don't feel guilty afterwards. Then there's Kraznys, whose final test for the Unsullied is to have them kill a slave baby in front of the mother.

Edited by Constantinople, Apr 14, 2013 @ 2:06 PM.


#276

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Posted Apr 14, 2013 @ 4:51 PM

My point was not that Cat directly causes the most bloodshed on the canvas (although one could argue the whole war was set in motion by her stupidly taking Tyrion hostage, but I won't here). My point was that I hate her and I think she's awful.

Furthermore, the three examples you mentioned don't believe themselves or their actions to be wrong. Joffrey doesn't think he's wrong because he's insane. Tywin doesn't feel guilt because he's the ultimate utilitarian and feels that the ends justify the means. And, in the last example, we're talking about an entirely different culture where slaves aren't considered "people" anyway. That's why the owner is reimbursed for the child's death and not the mother.

Joffrey, Tywin and Kraznys don't believe, fundamentally, that all life has equal value, especially as compared to their own. Thus, they don't have any guilt. That doesn't mean they aren't wrong. In an absolutist sense, I believe they very much are. But, subjectively, they aren't bothered by what they do and they feel no guilt. In an odd way, their consciences are clear. Cat does feel guilt and that's why I blame her. She knows she was wrong and yet those pangs of guilt -- which was her conscience, her moral center talking to her -- were not enough to make her do the right thing. Jon obviously got that fever years ago, but all that time wasn't enough for her to turn around and do the right thing. Every day, she had a choice to be better or to be awful to him and, every day, she chose the latter. Over and over. Every day. By what she said to him after Bran fell -- which he had nothing to do with -- when she said she wished it had been him, she's still in the same place she was back then. That's what makes her a despicable, craven coward. To me.

#277

proserpina65

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Posted Apr 17, 2013 @ 8:10 AM

Cat does feel guilt and that's why I blame her. She knows she was wrong and yet those pangs of guilt -- which was her conscience, her moral center talking to her -- were not enough to make her do the right thing.


For me, that makes her a better person than someone like Joffrey or Tywin, who don't feel guilt about actually DOING horrible things. Yeah, Cat's not a great person, but at least she knows she was wrong and feels guilty about it. She'd be a better person if she'd followed through on treating Jon as her son, but no way is she the worst person in a world that contains Joffrey, Tywin and the Mountain.

#278

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 3:06 AM

I had the feeling that what Catelyn couldn't stomach is that she had made a pact with the gods for Jon's life and she broke her promise to the gods. That is what she thinks her family is being punished for. More than the other characters, she's been shown to be pretty pious. I think Ned mentioned her reluctance to practice worshiping the Old gods in Season One (as opposed to the Seven), as well.


That's the impression I got, as well. So she is not regretting her treatment of Jon so much as she is regretting her broken promise. That, to me, signals that she still not regard her treatment of Jon as wrong, in of itself.

#279

gyabou

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Posted Apr 26, 2013 @ 6:01 AM

I think she obviously DOES feel it is wrong, otherwise there would be no reason for the gods to punish her. Sometimes people can't bear to do the "right" thing because it is too painful. Cat clearly can't stand Jon simply because he is a daily reminder of her husband's infidelity, one she can never get away with. Let's not forget that in this society, if Cat had been the one who was unfaithful, she would have probably been executed. While Cat's hatred of Jon is irrational and to us, who know and love Jon as a person, objectionable, to me it is entirely understandable.

As for the really tired and silly suggestion that Cat is the cause of the war: Really? Really? CAT caused the war? It wasn't, oh, say, the two people who pushed a child out of a window in order to hide their incestuous relationship which has completely undermined the chain of succession for the crown? Nope, Cat did it. How dare she try to get justice for her paralyzed son. What a wicked woman.

For anyone who is unclear, here is a TV-friendly short list of characters in Game of Thrones who are "worse" people than Cat: the Lannisters, Viserys, Pycelle, Theon (yes - he murdered two children and Ser Rodrick), the Mountain, the Hound, Ilyn Payne, the Boltons, XXD, the slave-owners of Astapor, Khal Drogo (yes. His people rape and pillage and sell people into slavery, and he didn't become Khal by playing tiddly-winks with the other Dothraki), Jorah (sold people into slavery), Melisandre, etc. etc.

Edited by gyabou, Apr 26, 2013 @ 6:03 AM.


#280

kieran555

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Posted Apr 26, 2013 @ 6:22 AM

Cat certainly didn't cause the war - that is down to an array of factors - but she did unwittingly provide the catalyst, or at least the last catalyst, in that it was her kidnapping of Tyrion which sparked Tywin to raise an army and lay waste to the Riverlands, but if it had not been that, it would have been something else; if nothing else, the conversation overheard between Illyrio and Varys indicates players were preparing for/instigating conflict already, as they were worried things had moved too fast, not that it was unexpected.

Personally I found Cat more sympathetic as a result of this episode - yes, she was conssitently horrible to Jon, but her situation was difficult and she on some level seems to acknowledge that her own actions, to the gods or Jon, are not the most admirable.