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2-15: "The Queen is Dead" 2013.03.03


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#181

My Way

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 10:18 AM

On the other hand, Charming's sweater plus holster combo was not working. The holster is hot, but only with nice button-up shirts.

Or you know, no shirt. Just saying. (Charming with the holster works for me every time)

See, my assumption has been that Regina is playing Cora and has been all along.

Thatís about the only thing that could save this shit for me but Iím just not sure thatís where theyíre going. Even if it were true, she was a bitch to snow, let a woman die and let her mother get the dagger in the meantime to further her plan. Exactly when is she planning to turn on Cora? Itís not going to be very helpful if she lets her mother takeover the world and kill a bunch of people and then is like Ďhey, playing you all along!í.
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#182

sparkycircuit

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 10:28 AM

Here's my read on the whole Cora situation with the dagger- I don't know that it's necessarily that she can't just throw Snow out the window and take the dagger or anything like that. I think she's using what she has to manipulate Snow into doing and becoming exactly what she wants. I think that's also why she uses Johanna to this end rather then Charming- Johanna just exacerbates the pain of this day for Snow, and forces her to make the choice to save her or not is another way of pushing her, and really, she's rather disposable, whereas Charming could have some further use down the line to torment Snow. There is no way that Cora doesn't know what this day is for Snow (even if Regina seems unaware of it's significance) and I was fully expecting some sort of 'happy birthday' snide comment.

I think it's less about Cora not being able to just take the dagger from Snow and more about her not wanting to because it doesn't fit with her end- forcing Snow to choose between Johanna and the dagger plays into her longer term plan of turning her soul black. All of that being said, if Snow makes the 'wise' (which I agree with Cindy on- she's a Fairy Tale hero, there's no way she chooses the dagger over Johanna, whether that's the best choice for the most people or not. Cora remarks as much in the forest to Aurora earlier in the season- they just can't help themselves) choice, then I think she either uses Charming to force Snow's hand or just takes it anyway- either way Snow loses. This was just the more useful play for Cora's end game.

Which I agree with an above poster who pointed out that Cora taking Regina's seat should give her a huge freaking clue as to who she's dealing with. But Regina is also the woman who decided to blame a manipulated twelve year old for Daniel's death over her mother who murdered him in front of her. So sometimes she's not the best with the reasoning.

Edited by sparkycircuit, Mar 5, 2013 @ 10:28 AM.

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#183

petunia846

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 11:43 AM

Or you know, no shirt. Just saying.

Oh, you are very wise. Yes, that would definitely work. Yes. Definitely.
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#184

Deirbhile

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 11:45 AM

But Regina is also the woman who decided to blame a manipulated twelve year old for Daniel's death over her mother who murdered him in front of her. So sometimes she's not the best with the reasoning.


Watching this episode, one of the things that occurred to me is that this is what happens when a sociopath raises a child: Our Regina. Cora had nothing to gain from raising a strong, competent, morally healthy child. So she didn't.

Regina didn't want to marry Snow's father; Cora made that decision for her. Regina didn't plan to throw Cora through the Looking Glass; Rumpel made that plan for her. Regina didn't start out to create Storybrooke; Rumpel manipulated her into it. She's done some freelancing - killing Snow's father, killing Henry Sr., warring with the Charmings, choosing to listen to Henry Jr and let Snow and Emma back through the portal all come to mind - but the big turning points in her life have been guided by someone else, and she generally hasn't seen the manipulation behind it until much later, if ever.

That moment in the clock tower, she was momentarily shocked by her mother's casual depravity, but she still thinks she's getting something out of it, so she goes along. Part of her still has to be terrified by her mother's power - that's why she blamed Snow for Daniel's death even though she saw Cora do it, because she couldn't even let herself be angry at her mother in her own head.
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#185

stealinghome

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 11:53 AM

Except for the time she sent Hook to kill Cora!

Another thing I thought about earlier: why is Dark Snow being treated as some new thing? In 1x03, Snow was walking around with a vial full of fairy dust just waiting for the opportunity to sprinkle it on and kill Regina. Does that murderous phase not count as going dark?
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#186

sparkycircuit

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 12:04 PM

Another thing I thought about earlier: why is Dark Snow being treated as some new thing? In 1x03, Snow was walking around with a vial full of fairy dust just waiting for the opportunity to sprinkle it on and kill Regina. Does that murderous phase not count as going dark?


But in the end, after saving that for so long, she uses it to save Charming, who, at the time, she has no real connection to other then he's the guy who has stated that he's perfectly willing to turn her over to Regina if she doesn't get his jewels back. I think the fact that she gives up the one even vague sort of trump card or plan she has for Regina says more about her character in that moment. At least that's my interpretation of it. It's like how rather then go through with trying to kill Regina after Charming stops her, she takes a moment, considers, and kisses him. In the end, her good nature tends to win out. I think the implication this time is that she's been pushed so far, she's done with that.

Edited by sparkycircuit, Mar 5, 2013 @ 12:06 PM.

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#187

Schmacky0

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 12:06 PM

choosing to listen to Henry Jr and let Snow and Emma back through the portal all come to mind


It's funny that you say Cora "made" Regina do this or Rumple "made" the plan for Regina to do that. Or manipulate. And then you use the word "choose" when it comes to Henry Jr. But, didn't Regina choose everything she did irregardless of how those options became available to her? You could even argue that Henry Jr manipulated her to let Emma and Snow back through the portal. But, it was still her choice to do it. As is everything else.

I think in the clocktower Regina just found out some new information she didn't before. She just now realized that her mother has had a vendetta against Snow long before she ever did. She was already suspicious of Cora's true desire for the dagger earlier and she's suspicious again. But, it doesn't matter because Cora's grip on Regina's heart really is too strong. And no matter what, she'll always be that little girl that does and listens to everything mommy says. She'll always be a pawn of her mother's until she grows a backbone.
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#188

Deirbhile

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 12:33 PM

But, didn't Regina choose everything she did irregardless of how those options became available to her?


In a sense, yes.

I don't see Regina as a victim. I do, however, believe that the choices we make are shaped (and often constrained) by our upbringing. We may all be born as blank slates, but be don't stay that way, and it's very hard to overcome the lessons of those early years.

Snow was raised by Queen Eva to think of others first, to act from a sense of goodness, to always be aware of the responsibilities that come with royal leadership. Those lessons have shaped Snow's decisions and choices all her life, and now she's suddenly realizing the constraints as well.

Regina, on the other hand, was raised to be easily led by someone more powerful than herself, and so it's been relatively easy to put a false choice in front of her and make her think it's the only one.
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#189

Imonrey

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 1:35 PM

I'd put my money on Cora, though. She wants Gold as defenseless as possible to facilitate finishing him off.

Hook wants Gold good and dead - Cora doesn't. I very much doubt Cora would have helped Hook find Gold knowing full well his intention was to kill him. Either Cora wants to control Gold or else she wants to stab him and become the new dark one. Either way, she needs Gold to return to Storybrooke alive.

There are numerous possibilities in how Hook might have been able to track down Gold in New York, but at the end of the day, the writers and/or producers didn't really feel like it was important to show us or tell us how. Which is rather disconcerting. As I wrote upthread, I get the sense more and more that the driving force behind the show is the crafting of these weekly backstories, and the present day stories are sort of molded to fit around them and service them, rather than the other way around. I certainly have a harder time trying to make sense of the present day stories than I do the flashbacks.
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#190

Terpsichory

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 1:45 PM

This episode was better than previous ones. At least it wasn't totally predictable. Blue Fairy was obviously Cora; is she also going to be THE GREAT & POWERFUL OZ? Seems she can do anything she wants. I'm not sure if the character is boring or the actor is. She has no range - just the same droll delivery over & over. Loved Gold; what a great character to play! And yet another wrench thrown into poor Emma's life - a fiancee. So is she Wendy's daughter? I hope this picks up the pace. It's becoming like Lost, which bored me after a year & a half. I keep watching for something surprising to happen.
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#191

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 1:47 PM

Another thing I thought about earlier: why is Dark Snow being treated as some new thing? In 1x03, Snow was walking around with a vial full of fairy dust just waiting for the opportunity to sprinkle it on and kill Regina. Does that murderous phase not count as going dark?


I'm not sure I would consider that as her going dark. Regina was trying to kill her.
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#192

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 1:51 PM

Is anyone else getting a weird vibe off of Johanna?

She's the one that suggests young Snow go looking for help in the woods right when the pseudo-fairy happens to be there; there's a shot showing she is standing right next to young Snow's horse before it startles and goes sprinting off; the conversation Regina and Cora have regarding their plans for the dagger (the one that Snow miraculously overhears) is 10 feet away from Johanna's garden while Snow is visiting Johanna, and Johanna doesn't say boo to Snow until today (just in time to have Snow get some massive psychological damage due to her death)?

I'm suspicious that Johanna is a pawn for Cora and/or Regina, possibly that she poisoned Snow's mother (at Cora's orders), and that she was killed not only to hurt Snow but also to keep her from sharing any of these secrets.

That, or it's lazy writing/pacing and I'm thinking too much about a television show.
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#193

stealinghome

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 2:02 PM

I'm not sure I would consider that as her going dark. Regina was trying to kill her.

And Cora's NOT trying to kill her right now?

But in the end, after saving that for so long, she uses it to save Charming, who, at the time, she has no real connection to other then he's the guy who has stated that he's perfectly willing to turn her over to Regina if she doesn't get his jewels back. I think the fact that she gives up the one even vague sort of trump card or plan she has for Regina says more about her character in that moment. At least that's my interpretation of it. It's like how rather then go through with trying to kill Regina after Charming stops her, she takes a moment, considers, and kisses him. In the end, her good nature tends to win out. I think the implication this time is that she's been pushed so far, she's done with that.

I don't disagree with anything that you said--but the fact remains, for me, that pre-meeting Charming in the woods, Snow was walking around with a murder weapon just waiting for her opportunity to kill Regina. She was ready and willing to commit murder at that time. That she ultimately chose to save Charming, over her revenge, doesn't negate the fact that at one point, she was prepared and willing and kind of wanted to kill someone.

Is anyone else getting a weird vibe off of Johanna?

It wasn't just you. When Cora apparated Johanna to the clocktower, I thought for SURE it was coming out that Johanna was Cora's plant. But I think it would have come out this episode if that were the case. I highly doubt they'll ever revisit the character.
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#194

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 2:03 PM

Thank you! I did think about that (i.e. why Cora didn't just grab Charming). My fanwank is this: Cora wants to corrupt Snow. If Snow loses the love of her life, she might be more inspired to fight to her own death.

Interesting that Cora's still on that after 40 years while she's constantly promising Regina they can just kill Snow. Will she not kill her until she's corrupted her?

Thanks for linking to your essay, Aliasscape. You're dead right. This is a problem that (imo) a lot of fantasy shows face. My Vampire Diaries readers will feel me, here. The show wants to keep the protagonists in constant conflict, but in doing so, they create an unbeatable villain, and then have to get stupid in order to let the white hats defeat the black hats (or tolerate them, or escape their clutches).

Where does this kind of weirdo laziness come from? I used to write stories when I was 12 years old where I'd take the time to map out my characters powers and weaknesses so that I'd remember them and not mess them up. I don't get why there aren't more "one-time spells" or "one-time potions". Something they'd have to make again to use again so sorry, that was it.

As much as I hate armies of people fighting the bad guys (less suspense), if you're going to have so much power, then Snow and Charming need to stop taking everyone by themselves or they need to get Emma a magic teacher and figure out if her power can be an effective counter. When you have a magical enemy, why does refining ones magical powers get backburnered?

It is interesting that Regina hasn't actually killed anyone yet. Cora flung Johanna out the window. The heart-stealing could have been a show, looking like she went along with her mother. The only way I can get that to totally work in my head is if they reveal that it was Cora and not Regina who convinced the Giant to go after Charming. I'm not convinced, but I could see it as a possibility.

That Cora unleashed the giant was the first thing anyone who was hopeful about Regina's redemption thought of, and it was debunked that night by a writer of the episode on twitter. They've clearly shown us now every time someone was Cora. There'd have been no reason to not do it in that episode.

So yeah, Regina failed on getting the giant to kill everyone and destroy the town. But failing is not the same as not trying (to anybody but Belle.)

In Snow Falls, I assumed Snow figured it was a matter of time when she was hiding in the forest before she would either escape the realm or be captured and possibly taken to Regina. It seemed she intended to use that dust to protect herself in such a case, but she didn't seem to be hunting Regina down in the effort to get to throw dust at her. It's not like robbing people is "good" either, but at the time Snow said "All I'm doing is what it takes to survive." Though she said she only stole from the queen and so technically all that stuff belonged to Snow anyway I suppose. She didn't really bring that up though.

ColieK, I believe Johanna's constant presence was to quickly make you realize she was very involved in Snow's life since Snow had never spoke a word of her before today. Johanna was by Snow's horse but then they clearly show Cora in the forest behind a tree. They put Johanna constantly around so you'd feel Snow's dilemma in the clock tower and feel bad when she dies. Johanna told Snow HOW to reach the real Blue Fairy, to wish upon her star, Snow was just fooled before she had the chance to follow the instructions. The fake fairy didn't "happen to be in the forest", Cora was there hoping Snow would come so she could trick her before Snow reached the real fairy. Doesn't she come up behind Snow as if she had been following her?
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#195

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 2:19 PM

But there only seems to be two paths: the path of killing everybody and the path of trying to be a better person for Henry. She was on the being a better person path even after she found her mother and wanted her to tell everyone she killed Archie but then she agreed with her mother's kill everyone plan so how can she be playing her? The only thing h er mother expects from her is to go along with the killing of everyone and if she's not actually cool with the killing people plan then what is she even doing?


As I get older, aided my natural contrarian outlook, make me wonder if there truly is only two options for our favorite Evil Queen. I don't believe that binary solutions are the only way in personal interactions, or mediators wouldn't be around to help figure out a way two deadlocked sides can make a deal that is acceptable to both. It's another false choice put in front of Regina: be Way 1 or Way 2- Way 1 means you keep on keeping and lose Henry. Way 2 means you're like us. (Now, I agree that the No Kill bar is minimum, but we're talking about a woman who felt the best way to hurt folks she hates is to bring them to another world and give them amnesia and boring unhappy lives.) Yes, she was trying to be better, but not for herself; she's trying to 'buy'Henry's love with her thought-out, planned to be better actions. Maybe seeing how thouroughly eaten away in her soul Cora is will be the true wake-up call for Regina to stop, now, and find a way for herself: not Evil, but not something that she seems to truly despise. Charcoal is a nice color on Regina, it's not white- like when the briquet is on fire, but it's not black either.

Like many, I think that Regina's with her mom for many reasons, but one may be to minimize the damage- if she is keeping Henry in mind. Cora's only stated a wish to have Rumpie kill Clan Charming in the service of "helping" her daughter have a clear way to Henry. If she kills others, Cora could care less/ find herself less bored by her daughter's small-scale dream/plan.



I'm suspicious that Johanna is a pawn for Cora and/or Regina, possibly that she poisoned Snow's mother (at Cora's orders), and that she was killed not only to hurt Snow but also to keep her from sharing any of these secrets.



Good, it wasn't just me. I loved Mrs. Patmore, but the red flags started with the 'go look for the Blue Fairy but don't tell anyone' instructions. Your scenario makes perfect sense.

eta: Then Aliasscape makes a great reasoned argument too. Sometimes these writers can be tricksey.

Edited by Actionmage, Mar 5, 2013 @ 2:24 PM.

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#196

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 3:01 PM

To me, the ship sailed on the "Regina is playing Cora" theory as soon as Regina helped Cora throw an innocent woman to her death.

Anyone else find it risible how they retconned the fairytale aristocracy to supposedly believe that they were equal to everyone? If so, why do they even have servants and giant palaces and finery?

Once again James and Snow act nauseatingly weak and ineffectual. What did James even mean when he said "we can still beat her if she has the dagger"? How? Ugh, this show makes my head hurt. At least Snow acknowledged at the end how wimpy she has been; but we know that is not going to last.

As I noted in an earlier episode thread, I am apparently the only one in the universe who actually wants to see what was going to come of the outsider at the hospital; so I would like them to return to that plot thread.

First I was laughing because he was in Storybrook in one scene, then five minutes later he had beamed himself to Bae's apartment. They made a lame attempt to explain his arrival by quickly rambling something along the lines of him having the fastest ship in all realms and no one saw it because it was cloaked...Then I was just confused. I thought magic was confined to Storybrook. How was he able to magically cloak his ship?


This is a great question! I hadn't even thought about that, but you are right. Also, as others have pointed out: how did he find the exact apartment?

As I wrote upthread, I get the sense more and more that the driving force behind the show is the crafting of these weekly backstories, and the present day stories are sort of molded to fit around them and service them, rather than the other way around.


Good points, and that is eternally problematic for me, because I loved the pilot but assumed at that time that they would no longer show fairytale land after that first episode. And that was how I wanted it to be, and still wish it would be, although I know it will never happen now.

Blue Fairy was obviously Cora; is she also going to be THE GREAT & POWERFUL OZ? Seems she can do anything she wants.


Right, add me to the chorus of those who believe an enemy who can transport anyone anywhere at any time, make things levitate or dissolve, and flawlessly impersonate others, is too powerful and thus boring.
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#197

suparshadow

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 3:05 PM

Interesting that Cora's still on that after 40 years while she's constantly promising Regina they can just kill Snow. Will she not kill her until she's corrupted her?


I'm a little hazy on this, myself. Apparently we're meant to believe that Cora engineered Regina's marriage to King Leopold to... block Snow White from taking the throne someday? And... make her feel left out? ("then she'll know what it's like to be the miller's daughter") Or had she intended to corrupt Snow? ("turn Snow White's heart black as coal") In which case... what was the plan? Install Regina as Snow's stepmother so she could corrupt both of them and raise them in her image?

In any case, I'm guessing Cora has abandoned her plan to corrupt Snow's soul... She was ready to simply abandon Snow in post-apocalyptic Fairytale Land, and when they confronted each other at Lake Nostos, she was prepared to tear out Snow's heart and use it as some kind of peace offering for Regina back in Storybrooke. I think Regina inadvertently thwarted Cora's plans when she sent her to Wonderland, and by the time Hook showed up to assassinate her, she became more concerned with exacting revenge on Rumpleóand possibly Regina herselfóthan on Queen Eva or Snow White.
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#198

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 3:09 PM

This is a great question! I hadn't even thought about that, but you are right. Also, as others have pointed out: how did he find the exact apartment?


First of all, he didn't find the exact apartment. He found the building. You could tell he was watching them from across the street and then he ambushed them in the "lobby" of the building. And how did he find the building? Who the hell cares really? Do you guys really expect them to waste minutes or even seconds explaining how Hook found the building when you can just fanwank yourself that he saw the globe? Maybe he can smell Rumple and knows where he is all the time. Why desire to be shown/told that.

Oh and also? Charming's name isn't James. It's David. James is the name of the "evil twin"
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#199

stealinghome

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 3:11 PM

Then I was just confused. I thought magic was confined to Storybrook. How was he able to magically cloak his ship?

Because magic that was cast in Storybrooke still works in the outside world. How is his ship being cloaked different than Rumpel's shawl working in the outside world?

Anyone else find it risible how they retconned the fairytale aristocracy to supposedly believe that they were equal to everyone? If so, why do they even have servants and giant palaces and finery?

I don't see how this is a contradiction. Historically, the best monarchies have understood that they are no better than their people and in fact work for their people. How is what Eva said to Snow any different from what Queen Elizabeth likely says to Prince Charles, William, Harry, etc?

As I wrote upthread, I get the sense more and more that the driving force behind the show is the crafting of these weekly backstories, and the present day stories are sort of molded to fit around them and service them, rather than the other way around.

I think that's sometimes true (the Frankenstein episode, for example), but not always. I think the problem in the real-time story is more that the PLOT!!! has become the altar on which everything else--character, continuity, logic--must be sacrificed. We need Hook to be in NYC, so he's there. How did he know to go there? Who cares, the plot called for him to be there!!! The plot calls for Emma to act like she's had a lobotomy where her family's concerned? No problem, she'll act like a Stepford for the sake of the plot!

Edited by stealinghome, Mar 5, 2013 @ 3:13 PM.

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#200

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 4:49 PM

Because magic that was cast in Storybrooke still works in the outside world. How is his ship being cloaked different than Rumpel's shawl working in the outside world?

That could also explain how the dagger might be hidden in the cane. We know Gold can't perform magic in the outside world, but does a spell he cast in Storybrooke still work in the outside world? He could have somehow reforged the dagger into the cane or enchanted it so it became part of the cane. I really can't imagine him telling anyone where he hid it.

Though Hook's ship may be a different case because he wasn't put in Storybrooke by the curse. I think some of the issues with Storybrookers -- the reverting to their cursed state if they leave town, inability to use magic -- come from the curse. Both Hook and Cora came another way and weren't subject to the curse, so they aren't bound by the limitations of the curse. Obviously, Hook can leave town without losing his memory because he was never cursed, and that might mean Cora can use her magic wherever she goes.

On another subject, I don't think Henry is being brattier than can be expected under the circumstances. From my experiences both being that age and working with children that age, he's an absolute angel, even removing the rather crazy context. I'm still apologizing to my mother for the way I behaved at that age and am amazed she didn't pull a Hansel and Gretel and leave me stranded in the woods, and after one particularly horrific vacation Bible school experience I have a standing order at my church that I'll work with any age group other than fifth and sixth graders. Children that age are insane and even a wee bit evil. With Henry, throw in the fact that in the past year he's discovered that his adoptive mother was the evil queen, found his birth mother, has been put in a magical coma, has been in the middle of a tug-of-war between adoptive and biological mothers, believed one of his few confidants was murdered and now has discovered that his birth father was alive all along and his mother lied to him about it. Any kid who wasn't lashing out a bit would be abnormal.

I thought about trying to create some kind of chart to show the interconnectedness of the various fairy tales and stories used in this show and the relationships among the characters, but then my head exploded and I decided against it. I'm not sure you can visually depict it in a rational way. I suppose you could do some kind of Venn diagram showing how Cora is both the Queen of Hearts and the miller's daughter and the mother of Snow White's evil queen, but once you start adding in other stories and their overlap and things like the possibility that Rumpelstiltskin's son is the father of Snow White's grandson and also possibly Peter Pan, you get a very messy diagram.
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#201

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 5:03 PM

You could tell he was watching them from across the street and then he ambushed them in the "lobby" of the building. And how did he find the building? Who the hell cares really?

I will say, it was probably a lot easier to track the movements of Emma/Rumple/Henry - who took a public plane and cabs and what not and then were wondering around in the open in NYC - then it was for Rumple to find his long lost son. Now how he knew they went to NYC and when his detectiving happened I'm not sure and honestly I don't really need too much information on. Of all the things that bother me about this show, that's way down the list.

To me, the ship sailed on the "Regina is playing Cora" theory as soon as Regina helped Cora throw an innocent woman to her death.

Yeah. Even if we do find out she was playing Cora at this point, she's not getting any points for it because of this. Except I might deduct stupid points.
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#202

jessie09

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 5:04 PM

And Cora's NOT trying to kill her right now?


yes, but then again I don't consider her killing Regina or Cora evil or dark. She's given them how many times hoping they would change? How many more people is she going to watch die before she decides enough is enough. It's not like they can lock Cora up and stop her. Even if they manage to get the dagger away from her, from what we've seen and now that we know she wanted to corrupt Snow, so most likely Cora is just going to keep coming after them. I'm sure part of it is revenge because of what she's done to Snow's mom, but part of it is also protecting herself and the people she loves. She held out hope that Regina would change and she cast the curse. She's done this plenty of times. I don't really consider her killing Cora as going dark, but that's probably how the show sees it.
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#203

EEM65

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 5:25 PM

Regina doesn't get to say how she's redeemed, or what she can do to be redeemed, or when she's redeemed. Her victims get to do that. Regina's role is to decide to redeem herself, then to actively work to show her victims she is redeemed, to apologize, to seek to make amends, but that's only half of redemption.




I believe that Regina has the last word on how she is redeemed, not her victims. In the end, she has to genuinely forgive herself and not simply depend upon others - especially Henry - for her redemption. Spike had to learn this lesson in the last season of "BUFFY".

And I also wonder if the citizens of Storybrooke will ever truly learn how much Rumpelstiltskin is responsible for them being cursed.

Edited by EEM65, Mar 5, 2013 @ 5:27 PM.

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#204

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 5:32 PM

I believe that Regina has the last word on how she is redeemed, not her victims. In the end, she has to genuinely forgive herself


Forgiving yourself for your past crimes isn't redemption. It's forgiveness. Redemption is atoning and making amends. She isn't going to do that by forgiving herself. She does that by making amends with those whom she's wronged.
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#205

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Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 5:35 PM

I believe that Regina has the last word on how she is redeemed, not her victims. In the end, she has to genuinely forgive herself and not simply depend upon others - especially Henry - for her redemption. Spike had to learn this lesson in the last season of "BUFFY".

And I also wonder if the citizens of Storybrooke will ever truly learn how much Rumpelstiltskin is responsible for them being cursed.


yes, but she doesn't get to judge them for not forgiving her in the amount of time she thinks it should take for her to be forgiven. Some of these people might not ever forgive her for what she's done. She is going to have to accept that eventually. They were the ones who were hurt by the things she has done. She doesn't get to say when they should forgive her just because she's been doing good for a couple of weeks.Just because she has decided she wants to change for Henry doesn't mean that any of them will ever trust her again. And just because they haven't completely forgiven her in that amount of time, does not make them any less good or kind and it doesn't make them hypocrites. They have a right to be mad and not trust her after everything she's done. Not to mention, she's never apologized to any of them for the things she's done. I'm not even sure she thinks any of the things she's done is wrong. She wanted to be good because she didn't want to lose Henry, but I've yet to see her actually feel sorry for any of the things she's done. She's still blaming her choices and actions on other people.

Edited by jessie09, Mar 5, 2013 @ 5:39 PM.

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#206

EEM65

EEM65

    Video Archivist

Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 6:03 PM

Forgiving yourself for your past crimes isn't redemption. It's forgiveness. Redemption is atoning and making amends. She isn't going to do that by forgiving herself. She does that by making amends with those whom she's wronged.



I'm pretty much sticking by my words. And I still believe that it isn't up to Snow White or anyone else to dictate Regina's redemption. It's up to Regina. She has to make the decision to start on that road to redemption without anyone else's influence . . . and that goes for both Henry and Snow White.
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#207

Crimson Belle

Crimson Belle

    Couch Potato

Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 6:09 PM

She has to make the decision to start on that road to redemption without anyone else's influence . . .


And once she makes that decision, it is impossible for her to be redeemed without seeking out her many victims and trying to make amends to them, which must be done on their terms, not hers. Regina doesn't get to decide what makes it all better for the people she's cursed, the families and friends of those she's murdered, the thousands of lives she's ruined. They do, and until Regina realizes that, actually feels remorse AND seeks out forgiveness by making amends, then any decision she makes to decide to redeem herself is absolutely worthless.

Regina acts as if by not killing someone or destroying a life for a week that the townies should automatically forgive her without her even regretting her actions, seeking forgiveness or doing anything to make amends.

It isn't redemption to go up, slap somebody across the face 5 or 6 times and then say, "I forgive me. And I didn't slap you for the last two seconds, though I don't regret slapping you, but because I didn't slap you in just this moment, I'm redeemed. And because I've decided I'm redeemed, something is wrong with you for not agreeing with me and treating me like we're best buds." Except to Regina, it apparently is.
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#208

jessie09

jessie09

    Couch Potato

Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 6:15 PM

I'm pretty much sticking by my words. And I still believe that it isn't up to Snow White or anyone else to dictate Regina's redemption. It's up to Regina. She has to make the decision to start on that road to redemption without anyone else's influence . . . and that goes for both Henry and Snow White.


I agree that it has to be up to Regina to change, but she doesn't get to get mad at the victims when they don't forgive her in the amount of time she thinks they should. Snow was just giving her a chance to choose the right side. She clearly doesn't really want to be redeemed if she's siding with her mother and letting her use the dagger to kill the rest of Henry's family. I don't think what Snow said was all that bad. She's not changing if she sides with her mother to kill them all, and yet she's still getting all upset that they won't forgive her in the way she thinks they should. She's not redeeming herself or trying to change if she's teaming up with someone to kill all of them. Considering everything she's done to Snow and the rest of them, I think they've been pretty civil with her.

Edited by jessie09, Mar 5, 2013 @ 6:16 PM.

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#209

Schmacky0

Schmacky0

    Couch Potato

Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 6:25 PM

It isn't redemption to go up, slap somebody across the face 5 or 6 times and then say, "I forgive me. And I didn't slap you for the last two seconds, though I don't regret slapping you, but because I didn't slap you in just this moment, I'm redeemed. And because I've decided I'm redeemed, something is wrong with you for not agreeing with me and treating me like we're best buds." Except to Regina, it apparently is.


I just want to let you know that reading this gem of a paragraph literally made me laugh out loud. You're so right. That was funny. Thank you.
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#210

Alexandria Bay

Alexandria Bay

    Stalker

Posted Mar 5, 2013 @ 7:05 PM

Maybe Rump's dagger is wherever Highlander's Immortals stashed their swords between uses.
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