26 replies to this topic

[TWoP Lockley]

If you have thoughts on a more witty title for this thread hit me with suggestions in the mod thread.

[ethanvahlere]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen a single episode of Homeland, so I don't know how it compares to that show. As far as other shows go, I was one of the proud few who watched and enjoyed Rubicon up to a point, but I gave up on Pan Am despite its spy subplot, and I could never get into more high-octane shows like 24 and MI-5). My interest in spy stories, which started after reading both The Spy who Came in from the Cold and The Russia House, is mostly from novels (obviously, John le Carre, but also Frederick Forsyth, Robert Littell, and a few others here and there) and movies (the good movies adapted from the le Carre novels, The Good Shepherd, The Lives of Others, and others). I love the Bourne movies, and don't mind the Bond movies, but I'm looking for a spy show that concentrates more on the nuts-and-bolts, long-term operations and moral ambiguity and less on the big action scenes, and so far, it looks like this show will fit the bill in that department.

I know a few people expressed reservations about whether a show that concentrated on the nuts-and-bolts would be of interest to anybody except hardcore spy junkies. The fact is, just about anything can be made interesting if done well enough; I don't know, for example, if people would have automatically though a show about the family of a mobster would necessarily be that interesting. Also, when you think about it, although the stakes are much higher, spies like Philip and Elizabeth aren't that different from undercover cops, and people are willing to watch those kinds of shows. So far, I think it's being presented in an interesting way, and while maybe I would like more of the le Carre tenor than the show is, I do find it at least going for that ambiguity.

[Mars477]

My all time favorite spy fiction is Greg Rucka's ONI Press comic and book series Queen and Country, which is about Tara Chace, an SIS Special Operations officer on the eve of the 21st century. It is a very Stale Beer flavored piece, with fantastic characters (that it is utterly brutal to), which was inspired by the ITV spy series The Sandbaggers. Sadly, I've kind of given up on it being adapted for any kind of screen, big or small. (And of course, Hollywood is pretty shitty with adapting Greg Rucka's works: just look at Whiteout).

Unlike Carrie, Elizabeth isn't always either crying or fucking. In my eyes, that already puts The Americans well above Homeland. That the latter show also more or less turned into a love story with spy fiction flavoring just makes it all the more disappointing.

[Hallelujah]

Unlike Carrie, Elizabeth isn't always either crying or fucking. In my eyes, that already puts The Americans well above Homeland. That the latter show also more or less turned into a love story with spy fiction flavoring just makes it all the more disappointing.

I think comparing the first two episodes of both shows (or even up to episode 5/6 of Homeland's second season), I'm not sure The Americans is up there quite yet. I think Elizabeth's character is kind of one-note so far, certainly not as dynamic or nuanced as Carrie on Homeland. I mean, Carrie's character in S1 was pretty tough-as-nails, and most of her breakdowns I think can be attributed to her bipolar condition, not necessarily a weakness of character or resolve.

I'm curious to know that if we saw Elizabeth breaking down on screen, crying, or her will being broken, would we think less of her character? Is her use of her own sexuality ("honey trap") more acceptable?

Then again, it's only been two episodes, so comparisons may be too premature.

Question to TWoP Lockley: is it okay to compare The Americans to other shows with similar concepts, e.g. Mad Men (period elements) or Breaking Bad (criminals hiding in plain sight, neighbors that could implement you) in this thread?

Edited by Hallelujah, Feb 7, 2013 @ 7:13 PM.

[madam magpie]

I watched the first season of Homeland, and realized about halfway through that realistic spies are boring to me. They sit around talking, plotting, interrogating people, and (in the case of Carrie) being melodramatic and mostly useless. I much prefer spies like Sydney Bristow or Elizabeth: tough-as-nails badasses who go on cool missions and fiddle with gadgets. To me, Elizabeth seems layered and mysterious. There's a lot going on behind her cold stare, and I'm interested to find out who she is. Carrie just made me want to throw things at the TV because she does such stupid things CONSTANTLY.

[SlovakPrincess]

So far, this show is just the right speed to me. It hits all the right notes - mysterious, brooding, and focused on the emotional lives of people who are supposed to stifle their emotions and calmly live lies and kill people. I compare the tone of this show to the first Bourne movie, The Lives of Others and Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. Whereas I could never warm up to the 007 movies because James Bond was so unnaturally glib about what he was doing, and it was all so cartoonish.
I love the theme of Phillip and Elizabeth slowly exploring if there could be something real and affectionate in their KGB-manufactured marriage. And the fact that they are often very conflicted about what they're doing.

Gregory's story (turning on the US because he was disillusioned by racism and the Vietnam war) reminded me of Gregory Hines' character in White Nights. Come to think of it ... hey, I think they stole that! (Except that this Gregory didn't go to live in the Soviet Union).

Comparing to other tv shows: there was a lot about the first few seasons of Alias that I liked, but it was pretty silly and unrealistic from the first episode (giant red water ball, anyone?). And with Sydney's parent drama, and the on-again, off-again nature of her relationship with Vaughn, it was a bit too melodramatic. This show is much better so far.

I loved the first season of Homeland, but the eras are so different, and the characters are so different, that it's hard to think of these shows as similar. As couples go, Phillip and Elizabeth actually make so much more sense than Carrie and Brody.

For childhood nostalgia's sake, I'll also throw out as a comparison Robert and Anna from '80s General Hospital, who were ex-spies and ex-spouses. Their Cold War spy backstory was fairly ridiculous (it was a daytime soap, after all), but it had some similar themes to Phillip and Elizabeth's relationship.

[BasilBee]

Can anyone recommend any non-fiction regarding KGB in the U.S. at this time? I'm finding this show so interesting, I'm wondering how it matches up to real life.

[Njeri]

Is her use of her own sexuality ("honey trap") more acceptable?

I love the show but I really wish the writers understood how a honey trap works in real spycraft. A female agent would never have sex with someone as part of an operation because a) her bosses are male, and she'd instantly be considered compromised, and b) it's incompatible with the mindset of a super confident, highly trained woman in an elite field. It just doesn't happen. When sex is required they use prostitutes.

Here are some female Mossad agents on the subject: Link.

[madam magpie]

That's modern-day Israel, though. Are we sure the Cold War Soviets had the same standards? I don't know the rules of honey trapping, but I don't find it hard to believe that they didn't.

[ClairdeLune]

Sticking with TV shows …

La Femme Nikita (the Peta Wilson version) stands out in memory as the earliest spy show that I watched with any regularity. On the shallow side, I liked Nikita's wardrobe and Michael's walk. Overall, I liked the many ambiguities on the show: the (sorta) good things done by not-so-good guys, the not-so-good things done in service of greater purposes. Those were interesting stuff before "shades of gray" became popular on TV.

The first two seasons of Alias were pretty exciting, stylish and full of intrigue, then it gradually dawned on me that the show runner never intended to resolve those mysteries. After the "two-year leap" even the characters stopped making sense and, to me, the whole show devolved into the Bristow-family melodrama - speaking of cry-face, Sydney could definitely give Carrie a run for her money. I couldn't stick with it past the third season.

I really liked MI-5, its fast pace, its brutal honesty in depicting "the good guys" in the intelligence community, its relatively low-tech way of espionage. After the departure and/or demise of Tom, Zoey, and Danny, however, I found it difficult to make emotional investment in any other team members such as Harry, Ruth, Adam, etc. And once I stopped caring about what happened to the characters, I stopped caring about what happens on the show.

I am still enjoying Homeland, even though some episodes are not as good as the others. I like its reflection on how 9/11 fundamentally changed Americans, how we view "terrorism" these days. As far as heroines go, Carrie is by far the most compelling of all female spies on TV. Not because of her bi-polar condition, but because of her strength and conviction despite her many flaws. As for the whole show, it seems to have already exhausted the is-he-isn't-he well; whether or not the show can do without it remains to be seen.

I didn't expect myself to be drawn to The Americans - KGB posing as Americans in the suburb? Yeah, right! - but three episodes into the show, I found myself increasingly invested in these KGB operatives. Can't say the show is wowing me with its fashion choice or spy tech, but somehow these seeming deficiencies only added the textures and nuances to the characters. These is just something so darn sympathetic about these sleeper agents' American-ness that, thirty years into their future with outcome of the Cold War certain, I still care about what happens to them.

Edited by ClairdeLune, Feb 20, 2013 @ 3:09 AM.

[ethanvahlere]

KGB posing as Americans in the suburb? Yeah, right!

Well, that has long been a secret fear, and it's shown up in other works, like Robert Littell's novel The Company and the Kevin Costner movie No Way Out.

[GenevieveRedux]

Following up on the discussion about honey-trapping and sex, here's a long but good read from Foreign Policy.

The History of the Honey Trap

The article's take is that sex with all its physical/emotional entanglements are tools wielded in the honey trap.
It discusses some interesting cases from the past, including a homosexual affair, and indicates the practice is still going strong in contemporary times. It also debunks some sex scandals reported as spy traps as concoctions of the media.

[MI5] explicitly warns that Chinese intelligence services are trying to cultivate "long-term relationships" and have been known to "exploit vulnerabilities such as sexual relationships ... to pressurise individuals to co-operate with them."

Cleverness, training, character, and patriotism are often no defense against a well-set honey trap. And as in normal life, no planning can take into account that a romance begun in deceit might actually turn into a genuine, passionate affair. In fact, when an East German honey trap was exposed in 1997, one of the women involved refused to believe she had been deceived, even when presented with the evidence. "No, that's not true," she insisted. "He really loved me."

[Boundary]

I must say that I love the spy genre, from the serious treatments in The Good Shepard and Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy to genuine action thrillers like Bourne and Salt, all the way to ridiculous end of the spectrum. I don't judge.

Comparing to other tv shows: there was a lot about the first few seasons of Alias that I liked, but it was pretty silly and unrealistic from the first episode (giant red water ball, anyone?). And with Sydney's parent drama, and the on-again, off-again nature of her relationship with Vaughn, it was a bit too melodramatic. This show is much better so far.

True enough. But if we have to compare this series to Alias, a more apt comparison would be Jack and Irina's backstory which was hinted at (and once glimpsed at) but never really shown. I dare say the set up in Alias was even more intriguing: Spy Daddy working for the CIA and Spy Mommy undercover for the KGB, with him none the wiser. But the same "marriage" issues arise similar to this show. Was/is the marriage real? So even though Sydney's parent drama was too melodramatic, it didn't shy away from that question and I suspect Philip and Elizabeth's marriage will deal with this question as well right through to the end of the series.

I am still enjoying Homeland, ... As far as heroines go, Carrie is by far the most compelling of all female spies on TV. Not because of her bi-polar condition, but because of her strength and conviction despite her many flaws.

Carrie is compelling I agree and exasperating too. Her conviction despite everyone else is where her drama lay, not the bi polar and I like that she wasn't designed to be a field agent, but it seems that doesn't stop the writers from putting her in perilous situations in the field - and they make her reckless in order to do so. Actually a more apt comparison for Carrie is Maya on Zero Dark Thirty (who refreshingly doesn't join the Seals on their mission). Elizabeth one the other hand, is competent in the field, ruthless and certain in her beliefs. Beliefs that are presumably at variance with the majority of the audience. I find that much more compelling. An observation: I think Elizabeth is the first spy heroine (on tv at least) to explicitly use sex as one of her primary methods of acquiring information. Carrie was in love, Sydney was brainwashed, I haven't watched Annie Walker on Covert Affairs. Should I include Bond?

KGB posing as Americans in the suburb? Yeah, right!

It seems to be a popular story trope. Alias did an episode based on that very idea and Salt with Angelina Jolie uses a variant of it. I suspect the idea that one's neighbours could be spies fired up a lot of middle class writers' imaginations at the time.

[mrs peel]

Not just Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, but "The Honourable Schoolboy" and "Smiley's People" (all by John LeCarre) are great novels about how spies work. THere was a great miniseries in the 1980's made of Tinker Tailor, and another of Smiley's People (with Alec Guinness as British spy George Smiley). I watched the recent Tinker Tailor movie, not nearly as good as the old miniseries in my opinion.

[madam magpie]

KGB posing as Americans in the suburb? Yeah, right!

It seems to be a popular story trope. Alias did an episode based on that very idea and Salt with Angelina Jolie uses a variant of it. I suspect the idea that one's neighbours could be spies fired up a lot of middle class writers' imaginations at the time.

Well, it's also happened in real life. That's what this show's based on, isn't it? That ring of Russian spies who were discovered and deported in 2010-ish? If I remember right, some of them had been here for quite awhile.

[ClairdeLune]

I dare say the set up in Alias was even more intriguing: Spy Daddy working for the CIA and Spy Mommy undercover for the KGB, with him none the wiser. But the same "marriage" issues arise similar to this show. Was/is the marriage real? So even though Sydney's parent drama was too melodramatic, it didn't shy away from that question and I suspect Philip and Elizabeth's marriage will deal with this question as well right through to the end of the series.

I can see similar scenario on this show only if one of them - more likely Philip - is turned. Otherwise, the show will probably play the relationship straight, as a metaphor for how people live together for so many years without fully knowing each other, and how the newfound knowledge can bring them closer or tear them apart.

... I think Elizabeth is the first spy heroine (on tv at least) to explicitly use sex as one of her primary methods of acquiring information.

If memory serves, Nikita had to marry some terrorist dude because he had intel vital to the Section. Of course, the marriage was short-lived because Michael jumped at the first chance to kill the guy.

That ring of Russian spies who were discovered and deported in 2010-ish? If I remember right, some of them had been here for quite awhile.

IIRC most of them lived in White Plain, or thereabout. I remember being surprised by how unsensational it was. Maybe they were only into industrial espionage, so not!sexy :)

[scowl]

I watched the first season of Homeland, and realized about halfway through that realistic spies are boring to me. They sit around talking, plotting, interrogating people, and (in the case of Carrie) being melodramatic and mostly useless.

Another problem is that real life spies are often arrogant pricks who don't work for what they believe is a noble cause, but do it for money, revenge, or self-entitlement. Many of the few spies for the Soviet Union who weren't Americans eventually turned themselves in and defected which the show is already hinting at.

The Soviets had far more success finding weak links in the government and recruiting them. I think the idea of Phillip and Elizabeth running a travel agency is based on Soviet spy Jake Golos who set up "World Tourists, Inc" as a front for recruiting agents way back in 1927. One direction the show could go is making our commie couple heads of a spy ring. Stealing punch cards from FBI trucks will be child's play compared to dealing with government workers who buy cars and houses they can't afford and demand cash for what they know. This will support their belief that capitalist Americans only care about themselves.

[Uncle Chuck]

I have to admit that more than once, especially when they are wearing those ridiculous wigs and disguises, I have been reminded of Boris (Badenov) and Natasha (Fatale) who battled endlessly with Rocky and Bullwinkle.

I think the idea of Phillip and Elizabeth running a travel agency is based on Soviet spy Jake Golos who set up "World Tourists, Inc" as a front for recruiting agents way back in 1927.

"
Travel agencies are apparently a good spy cover...and have been used by both sides. I have a cousin who majored in Russian Language and History at Harvard with intentions of becoming a Professor of Russian Language...then suddenly he dropped out of academia and appeared in post-Soviet Russia, where he opened a travel agency, despite having NO prior experience in business. He's back in the U.S.A. now and owns a translating/consulting service with NO travel agency involved. Cousin will never admit it, but I will go to my grave believing that he was actually working for the CIA while in Moscow.

[fashionista79]

... I think Elizabeth is the first spy heroine (on tv at least) to explicitly use sex as one of her primary methods of acquiring information.

If you watch Covert Affairs, this past season saw the lead character positioning herself as a honey trap to get information. It was the first time she'd had to do it, of course. There were many other times where she flirted to get information, but it took several seasons before the leap was made from flirtation to actual sex.

Another problem is that real life spies are often arrogant pricks who don't work for what they believe is a noble cause, but do it for money, revenge, or self-entitlement.

Are you speaking of KGB or are you including CIA in this? If CIA (since I can't speak on the KGB. Well, I can't really speak on the CIA, either, but I hope you get what I mean), I doubt that CIA agents are going into the business for money. It's not a well-paying job in the slightest. A few years ago, I attended a career fair in the Ronald Reagan Building. Among some of the companies and agencies represented at the fair was the CIA. I took paperwork home with me because I was interested in finding out their analyst positions. This was in 2010, and the starting salary for someone with no experience (which I would have been since I was making a complete career jump) was in the mid-40Ks.

If a spy is making a lot of money, it's probably because he or she is double crossing/double dealing and being compensated generously for the double dealing.

[Boundary]

If you watch Covert Affairs, this past season saw the lead character positioning herself as a honey trap to get information. It was the first time she'd had to do it, of course. There were many other times where she flirted to get information, but it took several seasons before the leap was made from flirtation to actual sex.

I'm not really surprised it took several seasons for them to do it, otherwise there's the risk of alienating the audience early on. Unless it's a show like this one, asking you to root for the "other guy" from day one. Even though Elizabeth and Philip are the utterly committed types, spending decades undercover and having children, I still find their use of sex as a primary weapon really fascinating. On one hand it's an admission that their marriage is fake but on the other it's a signal of their commitment to the caus. So I'd like to see how they continue honey trapping as their marriage becomes more and more genuine.

[ethanvahlere]

So in the discussion of the pilot, someone brought up Nelson DeMille's novel The Charm School, which was written during the Cold War (it came out in 1988), and is about American spies in the Soviet Union who discover a school meant to train Russians to pass for Americans. It's an interesting story idea, but done with nowhere near the complexity - character-wise, plot-wise, or morality-wise - that The Americans show nearly every week. Not only that, but what DeMille thinks is character development or whatever is just padding the story out to interminable length. For spy fiction, I'll take le Carre, Littell, or Frederick Forsyth over this, thanks.

[Mars477]

Another problem is that real life spies are often arrogant pricks who don't work for what they believe is a noble cause, but do it for money, revenge, or self-entitlement. Many of the few spies for the Soviet Union who weren't Americans eventually turned themselves in and defected which the show is already hinting at.

I highly doubt it. Spies as we know them (that is, intelligence officers/employees of the CIA, KGB/FSB, SIS, etc) are just civil servants whose jobs, in the case of illegals, are shittier and more dangerous than the average government worker. I think that CIA officers are paid comparable to the General Schedule with adjustment for overtime and stuff like that, so they're not exactly making the big bucks.

I think you're confusing what draws people to become intelligence officers with the classical motives for being turned as an asset (read: Nina, the FBI secretary). And those are some of what you've mentioned: Money, Ideology, Coercion (including sexual), and Ego. Wikipedia has some info on that. Apparently, the KGB loved using the honeypot/sexual coercion trick to turn assets. The CIA felt that it was less effective, and instead used offers of money or asylum to the United States (since the USSR was a shithole).

I love the show but I really wish the writers understood how a honey trap works in real spycraft. A female agent would never have sex with someone as part of an operation because a) her bosses are male, and she'd instantly be considered compromised, and b) it's incompatible with the mindset of a super confident, highly trained woman in an elite field. It just doesn't happen. When sex is required they use prostitutes.

Speaking of which, I believe that in the CBC series Intelligence, CSIS (that's the Canadians) used a local escort agency for all of their honey trap needs.

Edited by Mars477, Mar 12, 2013 @ 1:40 AM.

[crgirl412]

Excellent documentary on the Military Channel! Soviet War Scare 1983



My link

[scowl]

I was thrilled to see Elizabeth listening to a "numbers" station on a conventional shortwave radio and writing the five number groups down to use a one time pad to decode them. That's exactly what spies did and apparently still do since there are still numbers stations on shortwave to this day. It's a completely unbreakable and untraceable system to get a message to an agent as long as you don't reuse a pad.

[crgirl412]

Fox Files’ Goes Inside the Dangerous World of Espionage

As a new cold war heats up between Russia and the United States, Bill Hemmer follows some riveting stories of ‘deep cover spies’ as they play the dangerous game of espionage. Watch how sex, lies and videotape came together in “Operation Ghost Stories,” and how a traitor was exposed at the highest echelons of American power. It’s a glimpse into the secret world of spy hunters.

Watch a sneak peek below and don’t miss an all-new Fox Files, Sunday March 24 at 9p/12a ET.

Sneak peek

[Boundary]

The recent intelligent, utterly engrossing analysis of the Jennings marriage in the last few episode threads as well as the Elizabeth thread pricked a certain thought in me. I think JJ Abrams was striving for this level insight into a spy marriage with his show Undercovers and not only did he completely fail, the whole tone was off, chemistry was problematic and possibly the acting didn't have as much depth. But he is capable if he puts his mind to it (see the Bristow marriage on Alias). For the premise of Undercovers, with marriage at the centre of the concept, they've been completely been outdone by The Americans. In fact, I can hardly think of a more fascinating tv marriage.

[crgirl412]

The Russians caught an American spy in Moscow today!!! 

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t3

 

 

Clark's wigs are so much cooler!!!  ;)

Edited by crgirl412, May 14, 2013 @ 10:10 PM.