280 replies to this topic

[TWoP Roxy]

From zap2it.com:

Robert and Cora are not speaking; the servants shun Isobel; Matthew and Robert have a falling out; Bates takes a chance.

[lottiedottie]

I loved that everyone basically ignored Robert at Isobel's luncheon. Take that, pompous ass! And really, given that Mary had a foreigner die in her bed, is he really that uptight about possible gossip for having a former prostitute serve them? Please.

I hope Daisy takes up Mr. Mason on his offer. That would be awesome. I'd watch a spin off of that.

[Dana Girl]

This was my favorite episode of the season, by far. Everyone seemed...awake, for lack of a better turn. The women of Downton, especially, were kicking ass and taking names.

Even MATTHEW showed some spirit.

I'm not sure how I feel about the Dowager Duchess twisting the reality of Sybil's death, but I guess the Granthams' really do love and need each other. I'm still kind of side-eying that situation.

Thank heavens Poor Mr Bates is getting released! The plot slammed to a halt each time we were forced to leave the interesting action at Downton to revisit the Bates plot.

[dizzyd]

I found myself flipping channels everytime the prison story came on. The only thing that would make this interesting to me is if his cellmate kills Bates off just before he gets released.

I cannot blame Vi for trying to keep the peace, it looked like it was either that or a trip for Cora to this side of the pond dto see "that woman".

O'Brien is definitely setting Thomas up for the fall. I wonder if its going to backfire on her. Afterall, he does know about the soap.

[Sunshine55]

I feel like throwing a party if this means the end of the Bates-in-jail snoozefest!
Violet's actions with Dr. Clarkson at first appeared horrible to me, but I think ultimately it was the right call; there's no way Cora could have forgiven Robert if she continued to hold him responsible for Sybil's death. And in truth, it would have been a huge gamble, and the outcome could have been the same.
I thought the actor playing Clarkson did a good job with how uncomfortable he was in bending the truth. And I'm glad he criticized Tapsall's arrogance.
I wanted to applaud when all of the Crawley women refused to follow Robert's orders to leave the house of ill repute where they were about to enjoy a Charlotte russe.
And I'm glad Mary stood up for Sybil's wish to have the baby christened as Catholic. Mary's better qualities were out in force in this episode, IMO.

[MiniDriver]

Anvil city.

I'm beginning to love O'Brien.

Mary behaved like a decent human being this week, who knew she had it in her?

I'm surprised Isabelle didn't take more heat, and also surprised Violet was more interested in dessert than in propriety.

[ggo85]

I'm trying to decide how I feel about Dr. Clarkson "giving in" to the Dowager Countess. Did he do it to keep her happy? To save the marriage? To keep the peace? And, in the end, did he actually believe what he was saying? I'm not quite sure he did. Someone said he spends most of his time trying to keep everyone happy; this is a perfect example of that.

I too loved the luncheon. Normally, I would think Isobel invited them to make a point re Ethel. But, in this case, I really believe she had Cora's best interests at heart. A nice turn for her.

[cherry malotte]

I turn the channel when the Bates Prison stuff starts, it's seriously boring and overwrought.

Robert seriously needs to get over himself, but won't. Nor will Carson apparently. I do enjoy that the ladies above stairs and below are ignoring them for the most part.

[stopeslite]

Mrs. Hughes had all the best lines of the night, followed by Mrs. Patmore. So glad everyone finally mouthed off to His Lordly Lordness and his top servant, Mr. Snooty McSnooterson. It was a right feminist revolution, upstairs and down.

I feel quite icky about Mama and her meddling, though. I could see her point, but she pushed it too far by forcing Clarkson to say that there was NO chance of Sybil surviving. I don't think that Cora is such a fragile flower of immaturity that she wouldn't grasp the implication of "not a great chance" well enough that he had to lie and say no chance at all. Bah humbug.

I think I'm starting to see O'Brien's long game - she's trying to get Thomas to expose himself (heh,not that way) to Jimmy and for Jimmy to report him? Or for both of them to end up fired, maybe?

ETA:

I'm trying to decide how I feel about Dr. Clarkson "giving in" to the Dowager Countess. Did he do it to keep her happy? To save the marriage? To keep the peace?

To keep his job. She's his boss.

Edited by stopeslite, Feb 3, 2013 @ 10:16 PM.

[lottiedottie]

I'm trying to decide how I feel about Dr. Clarkson "giving in" to the Dowager Countess. Did he do it to keep her happy? To save the marriage? To keep the peace? And, in the end, did he actually believe what he was saying? I'm not quite sure he did. Someone said he spends most of his time trying to keep everyone happy; this is a perfect example of that.

See, I'm not sure he really did give in to her. He did say there was a chance she would have survived, although a small one. That would have been accurate to say, right? Caesareans were risky under the best of circumstances at the time and given she was in distress, it probably would not have ended well. I do love that he criticized Dr. Pompous, though. He was quite annoyed with the good doctor, wasn't he?

Mrs. Patmore and Mrs. Hughes were pretty awesome tonight.

Like someone said above, it's as though the characters were actually awake this episode!

ETA: I love the pile on Travers during dinner. Bahahah! Take that, smug Travers!

Edited by lottiedottie, Feb 3, 2013 @ 10:22 PM.

[ggo85]

To keep his job. She's his boss

A fair point. But would she really have "fired" him over this? I don't think so. I have to think that, in the end, he figured that standing on principle might not be the best thing to do.

One could see his true emotion when he took off after Tapsell. As for the other. . . I felt rather badly that he was almost forced to admit he was "wrong" when, in this case, he was mostly right -- at least more "right" than the consultant.

[neonlite]

Dr. Clarkson didn't say Sybil would have had no chance of surviving, he said it was an infinitesimal chance, which is a different thing. He didn't lie, he told the literal truth and actually made it possible for them all to stop feeling guilty.

[Scoutlet]

He stretched the truth. There was a small chance, and he changed it to insignificant.

I bet if they had asked Sybil and her husband, they would have taken the chance.

The problem I have is Violet was being a bully, validating her son and letting him off the hook (which he didn't deserve), invalidating Cora's grief and anger, and basically preventing Robert from having the Come To Jesus moment he desperately needs.

No wonder he is such an overgrown child. He was more concerned with being right and getting back into Cora's bed than he was with justice for his daughter.

Carson can also drop dead any time as far as I am concerned. How dare he glare at a newly widowed father at his desire to baptize his daughter in his own faith.

[katms]

"Me too"??? Did that turn of phrase ring false to anyone else? I find it hard to believe that Lady Mary said "Me too" twice, in bed, to Matthew.

[Contralto]

How about "learning curve"?

[jlc1967]

I think Clarkson told the truth: it was a remote chance that Sybil would have lived. She needed medical attention *way* before she went into labor, and without that, it was almost inevitable that she would die.

I can't figure out Jimmy/James' intention around Daisy and Alfred. It seems unlikely that Jimmy is interested in Daisy; it's almost like he flirts with her as a game. He seems to dislike Alfred too, though they get along all right enough. I think Ivy is really beautiful and can't figure out why Jimmy isn't interested. Alfred's obvious crush on Ivy is just heartbreaking to watch; I have been Daisy in this situation so often in life, it makes me wince to watch her go through this.

Thomas, have you learned nothing in your years at Downton Abbey? Q: When do you trust O'Brien? A: Never. The answer is always never.

Clap clap clap for the ladies of Downton staying for the luncheon.

On to the anachronism thread: I find it hard to believe that all the young people around the dining table would challenge the vicar's notion of Anglican superiority. They would have agreed with him, no? And someone correct me: Wouldn't high church Anglicans ALSO use smells-n-bells, similar to the Roman Catholic church?

[Scoutlet]

My question is, didn't Reverend Travis just conduct Sybil's funeral? And is now there being a pompous ass to her bereaved husband and insulting his faith? I wouldn't think a decent Anglican Priest would behave in such a horrid way. No wonder they defended Tom.

Yorkshire has a large Catholic population. I would guess there is a Catholic priest in the vicinity, and he and Travis probably have an understanding of some kind. He wouldn't just insult the Catholics like that in such a delicate situation.

In Anthony Trollope's "The Way We Live Now," which is set in 19th century England, one of the protagonists, a country gentleman, regularly has the local Anglican and Catholic Priests over for dinner. They might have had disagreements, but there was a certain degree of decorum and mutual respect. Under the circumstances, I just don't think Travis would have been so unkind.

Edited by Scoutlet, Feb 3, 2013 @ 10:42 PM.

[stopeslite]

YES- I heard Mary say "me too" and it was like a record scratch. Her speech at all times is much more formal than that. I would have believed "and I as well" or something of the sort.

[stillshimpy]

I wanted to applaud when all of the Crawley women refused to follow Robert's orders to leave the house of ill repute where they were about to enjoy a Charlotte russe.

What I loved about that was that none of the women, save Cora, were staying to thwart Robert. They've all been through so much in the past few years, they honestly weren't judging Ethel and didn't care that she'd cooked the food. I liked that touch, the only one having the vapors about propriety was Robert, apparently the only in-spirit Victorian Lady of the bunch.

I didn't mind Violet meddling. As much as I've grown to dislike Robert, no one should be made to feel responsible for another person's death (particularly that of their child) if they truly aren't. Robert was an ass to disregard Clarkson so fully, but the guy has a bad track record, and Robert actually did and does love Sybil. The man's a pill and deserves a comeuppance, but that's too harsh.

Hey, Edith has a great "hat face", that hat really suited her.

I liked this episode a lot, even if I feel sorrier than hell for poor Jimmy being used as a pawn in an O'Brien scheme.

Edited by stillshimpy, Feb 3, 2013 @ 10:48 PM.

[Scoutlet]

I just felt it was incredibly unrealistic for Cora to forgive Robert so fast. The show shouldn't portray such traumatic, impactful deaths if it is not prepared to portray and deal with the prolonged emotional fallout that would inevitably follow.

And notice that when Clarkson did what he did, Robert immediately had to know that Sir Philip (and thus he) had been "right." That should not have mattered at such a moment, but to him being validated is the most important thing, always.

Edited by Scoutlet, Feb 3, 2013 @ 10:55 PM.

[stillshimpy]

That should not have mattered at such a moment, but to him being validated is the most important thing, always.

I don't know, Scoutlet, I think he was just extremely anxious to know that he hadn't killed Sybil. Robert has been nearly unbearably priggish for almost all of this season, but I think in this instance he was just desperate to know that he didn't kill Sybil unwittingly. I can't blame him on that, simply because that kind of guilt would drive nearly anyone insane or at least haunt they for every moment of the remainder of their lives.

I just felt it was incredibly unrealistic for Cora to forgive Robert so fast.

I agree, it was unrealistic, because it doesn't really change that Robert wouldn't do as Cora was asking, nearly begging him to do. Then again, I can't imagine being that crushed by grief and not having the comfort of your spouse. Have ascertained that Robert's stubbornness hadn't actually killed her daughter, I think it's understandable that they immediately embraced. They'd have been so lonely in their grief. I thought the fact that they nearly collapsed onto each other in front of Violet was a big indicator of how painful it was for both of them to be trapped in separate grief.

[RCTina]

I think that maybe Cora was spending so much time being angry with Robert that she actually wasn't able to grieve properly. And Robert couldn't grieve properly because he was too busy apologizing for being wrong about Sybil.

I think once Cora let go the idea that Sybil would have lived if Robert had listened to Dr. Clarkson, they were able to move on and grieve together.

[Ima Pilgrim]

I think Violet thought that everyone had suffered enough, Cora continuing to blame Robert would not solve anything, he realized his mistake; she didn't really ask the doc to lie, and she sure didn't beat him about the head and shoulders like she did with the vicar when she wanted him to marry Daisy and William. I think she acted with good intentions, because grief is harder when there is resentment and blame, and enough is enough. She even was nonplussed by a former prostitute making the pudding - cheers to her!

[Jschoolgirl]

There were hints that Violet has experienced a tragedy beyond the accumulated lifetime of grief over the deaths of family and friends.

[bannana]

When you lose a child, parents blame each other, no matter the circumstance. Violet was wise, in her effort to help them get past this.

[oceanblue]

I agree. It's the first time that Violet did something that made me think "good mother". But I hope that Cora holds on to her independence. I hate that she was ignored when Sybil was ill. The men kept talking about how women act in childbirth. Only one person in the group had ever given birth and she was ignored. I agree that if Sybil and Tom had been asked, they would have opted for modern medicine when it was possibly early enough for it to change the outcome.

[quarks]

I think Violet meant to be kind, and she was right to see that this situation was not healthy for Cora, since Cora was hanging onto anger, not grieving. Not to mention the major awkwardness at dinners.

My concern is, based admittedly on just the anecdotal evidence of friends and coworkers, pre-eclampsia isn't THAT uncommon. I don't know if it's inherited at all, but I do know that it's not outside of the realm of possibility that either Mary or Edith might develop pre-eclampsia, only to have Cora tell them, "Well, Dr. Clarkson assured me that a C-section wouldn't have helped Sybil."

Though I don't think this show will be cruel enough to put us through another death sequence like that. Will it?

[ChimmyChai]

Cora wanted to forgive Robert because that was the only way she would've been able to also forgive herself. If the C-section would have saved Sybil then not only was Robert in the wrong but Cora was as well, for not fighting harder for her daughter's life. Cora blamed herself as well as Robert. But Dr. Clarkson's words released her to forgive herself and Robert and for them to truly grieve as parents for a lost child.

[IHateSpunk]

Has Violet ever lost a child? I had the impression that she had.

Shouldn't we have at least heard something about Martha's reaction to Sybil's death?

[buttersister]

The problem I have is Violet was being a bully, validating her son and letting him off the hook (which he didn't deserve), invalidating Cora's grief and anger, and basically preventing Robert from having the Come To Jesus moment he desperately needs.

Exactly--and no doubt she's been doing it his whole life, hence his tendency towards being such a pill. Otoh, you have to hand it to compassion and its ability to help people through the most difficult of times.

Poor OTP boys, the times are most certainly changin' and "something is happening here/ But you don't know what it is/ Do you, Mr. Jones, Lord Grantham or Mr. Carson?"