154 replies to this topic

[TWoP Lockley]

Welcome to the episode thread. This is the EPISODE THREAD.

You may talk about the episode here.

If Sam or Dean or any character pissed you off IN THIS EPISODE, you may talk about why you’re pissed off here as it specifically relates to the events of this episode.

You may NOT, however use any such instance as a launching point to rehash in any kind of detail any and everything that pisses you off about the character, the writing, the overarching plot of the show, etc. A brief mention to past events/actions is acceptable. Brief = ONE SHORT SENTENCE OR LESS.

In-depth discussion of overarching themes, storylines and characterization belongs in the ALL SEASONS thread.

However, having said that, it’s time for a few new rules in general and these will apply to every thread so LISTEN UP.

I think, in my zeal for freedom of speech, I have been a little too lenient when it comes to the Sam-bashing. Not saying I don’t agree with most if not all of it. But what is not acceptable, nor interesting to read, is the sheer intensity and volume of repetition about this particular feeling.

So, unfortunately, it’s time for a bit of good old fashioned censorship.

As of today I am officially banning the words “woobie” and “whitewash” when used in reference to your opinion of Sam and how he is characterized on the show.

Yep, banned. As you will be if you use either one of those words. THIS IS YOUR WARNING

And don’t get cute and simply try to insert a synonym for either one of these words. I am telling you now, figure out another way to make your point and help move the discussion forward.

Get off the damn hamster wheel.

Also, if someone chooses to support one character over another, or hell, let’s just say it, references Sam in a good light, accept it. Move on. Don’t quote every dissenter and rehash your point of view in post after post.

Don’t take offense if someone disagrees with you in either direction. All opinions are allowed here, but I expect all of you to show even MORE respect for differing opinions from here on out.

Don’t engage if someone breaks rules or challenges you in a discourteous way. Report the post or PM me directly.

One last thing. Be very very careful if you are typing these two words in any fashion in any thread. “The writers.”

Commentary on the writing of this show is allowed of course. Whining about how the writers treat your favorite is not. If you are about to write something about “the writers” do yourself a favor and triple check that your comment is ON TOPIC, has something to do with the immediate discussion happening, and isn’t the same damn thing you just said four posts ago.

The showrunner thread can be home to that kind of bitching if you absolutely must. Keep it out of this thread, the All Seasons thread, and keep it to a minimum the character threads too.

I'll be posting a recap of these new(ish) rules in the Announcements thread too and they will apply from here on out.

[steve91199]

So, basically, this was season 1 with added misery. Sam and Dean live for each other, that is their family duty. John is a misunderstood man, horribly burdened.

The saddest part of Dean defending John is that I don't even really know if the show was saying we should agree with Dean. If John beat Dean, as I felt was implied more than once, than this episode being a reason to bring back his old, agonized defenses of John makes me feel very sad. It seems like a regression. Family is not a legacy when all you do is destroy each other. It's a prison. If the show is saying this is not a good thing, for Dean to remember John this way, I can agree with that, but I couldn't really tell.

I suppose I can count the angel feather Dean kept as some oblique Cas reference, unless Gabriel left it in the backseat. So at least that's something.

Is it true that they mentioned John's father being alive in "In the Beginning"?

Edited by steve91199, Jan 30, 2013 @ 10:12 PM.

[JDavitt]

This was an interesting episode in that it filled in some gaps, but it also did one hell of a lot of retconning and handed the boys something convenient just when they needed it then tidied away a relative who couldn't realistically hang around. Too neat. Too contrived.

And Dean was really harsh on Henry for someone who's done his own fair share of time traveling.

I think the episode just felt slightly out of step with the show as a whole. Did enjoy the THEN segment. Real blast from the past (no pun intended)

[mustbekarma]

In the spirit of full disclosure, I sort of hate watch this show on rare occasions. Hate being a strong word, but I don't know an equivalent of "I'm bored and this show is the least sucky of shows for me to watch."

That being said, I thought it was a good episode until Days of Our Supernatural Sucky Lives reared its ugly head again. Yegods, I get the point. Their lives are awful, depressing, and all "gloom, despair, and agony on me."

And don't forget, "deep, dark depression and excessive misery."

So Sam and Dean were supposed to be Scholars. Sorry, this episode reminded me of fan fiction where Dean, Sam, and a "Caleb" character were the new trio supposed to rule a secret brotherhood based on the whole Merlin and Arthurian legend. I gave up on that story a long time ago.

I do have to admit drawing a devil's trap on a bullet was clever, but wouldn't it get deformed after being fired from a gun. It seems to me that would make the devil's trap useless. I give an A for effort, but a D in execution.

I think I just have to tell myself I'm just not allowed to be that bored anymore. This episode did not take me to my happy place.

[kzoogal]

I think the episode just felt slightly out of step with the show as a whole

I got that feeling, too. Like a whole new branch of mythology dropped on us, when I really want to find out what was happening with Kevin and Cas.

A key to everything also seems like a dangerous thing to create in the first place--heaven etc. always seems to be in such upheaval, hard to believe anyone thought they could keep it safe.

I did like the devil's trap on the bullet, though, and also the way it was revealed after the fact.

Edited by kzoogal, Jan 30, 2013 @ 10:15 PM.

[speedroc]

I thought there was some retconning here, but not enough to take me out of the episode. The entire thing was awesome. For a minute I thought my TV was on TNT and it was 9:00 AM instead of PM.

The actor that played Henry did a fantastic job. Nice pace, good story and gore.

Felt like a season 1-4 episode.

[Blackmantra53]

John Winchester hails from Normal. How very ironic!

Overall, a very good episode that felt very much like a season opener, but I am troubled that another plot has been added to what I perceive as an already crowded and underserviced season. I think pursuing the tablets or bringing forward Castiel's troubles would have been preferable to adding another layer. Of course, I am almost certainly too impatient, and perhaps this completely heretofore unknown league of observers and their library will dovetail into one of the existing storylines.

Henry Winchester was interesting, and I appreciated that he took Dean's message about family to heart. Such a shame that in the end Dean could not allow Henry to return to his son, their father, but their ingenuity in the end was inspiring.

Much to think about and absorb in this one, multiple re-watches will be necessary.
Looking forward very much to the re-cap of this one.

Edited by Blackmantra53, Jan 30, 2013 @ 10:19 PM.

[Parcae3]

The saddest part of Dean defending John is that I don't even really know if the show was saying we should agree with Dean. If John beat Dean, as I felt was implied more than once, than this episode being a reason to bring back his old, agonized defenses of John makes me feel very sad. It seems like a regression. Family is not a legacy when all you do is destroy each other. It's a prison.

I agree. I was bothered by the whole "he did the best he could," because really, he was exactly like Henry: he choose his need for revenge over his children. And he DID abandon them. he kept coming back, but leaving a 5 and 9 year old for days on end, is abandoning.

I liked the actor who played Henry and I think the character was interesting, but this whole "Men of Letters" thing was pretty lame. Couldn't they come up with a better name, too? They sounded like some goofy fraternity! And really, for such an elitist and snobby group, they got wiped out easily, and the hunters are still around. So tell me, oh "great ones," who are the great ones after all?

Abaddon was interesting. Wouldn't have minded if she stuck around, but on the other hand, her "death" was AWESOME!! SMART DEAN for the win!!! Just loved it. Loved that he always has a plan! So, who is just the "brawn" after all, huh, Henry? LOL!!!! And good thing that it was Sam captured and not Dean.

Over all, it was an innocuous episode. I feel like they were trying to redeem John a little bit, but honestly, him having been abandoned by his father doesn't mean he gets to turn around and treat his kids badly. You should learn from your parents mistakes, not perpetuate them. What he did to his boys was on him, not Henry.

Both actors were good in their roles, Henry and Abaddon. Love smart Dean. But for all of the build up of these letters things, they were fairly uninspiring. Give me an "ape" hunter like Dean, any day.

[MichaelaBelle]

I think the episode just felt slightly out of step with the show as a whole. Did enjoy the THEN segment. Real blast from the past (no pun intended)

I agree on both counts. I liked Henry but I don't know about introducing these Men of Letters and their treasure trove of knowledge at this point in the series. Not long ago, Cas told Dean time travel was difficult but angels could at times manage it. Now humans with a spell can also. And an angel feather. Which Dean apparently keeps in the trunk of the Impala. I'm not sure what to make of that.

[amazinglybored]

I don't think this breaks any rules....

That being said, the return of the 'Sammy' thing felt odd to me, more backsliding and putting Dean back into that old position without any real change on Sam's part. Dean was good this episode though smart and active with some nice chemistry between him and Henry. The defending John thing felt like another reset back to old messages and I don't know if it was deliberate to go with the Sammy thing or accidental. I guess it could be interesting if it was deliberate and some growth was the end result, Dean coming to peace with things or realizing that he can't recreate that illusion again. I liked the guest characters this episode, even if Henry's elitism did grate a bit. I loved Dean's solution for Abaddon, shades of the immortal doctor from S3, scary and smart.

I did have to lol at some of the Sam 'telling not showing' that occurred though. And I fully expect John's mother to turn up and be some type of hunter, I think she's the only one left unless there are some random siblings to pop up.

Edited by amazinglybored, Jan 30, 2013 @ 10:28 PM.

[mustbekarma]

I feel like they were trying to redeem John a little bit, but honestly, him having been abandoned by his father doesn't mean he gets to turn around and treat his kids badly. You should learn from your parents mistakes, not perpetuate them. What he did to his boys was on him, not Henry.

Like I mentioned earlier, I am in a Negative Nellie mood with this show. However, I didn't take it as a redemption of the John character but as a "John was screwed no matter what he did." He'd either be in the supernatural world through the League of Non-Extraordinary Gentlemen or drawn into hunting because of that damn angelic manipulation.

I guess if I'm summarizing, Density is still a bitch.

[gingercharm21]

I really liked Henry, knew he wouldn't survive of course, but good actor. I kind of want to find out more about his "secret" society.

[steve91199]

I agree. I was bothered by the whole "he did the best he could," because really, he was exactly like Henry: he choose his need for revenge over his children. And he DID abandon them. he kept coming back, but leaving a 5 and 9 year old for days on end, is abandoning.

What John did to his sons was psychological, verbal, and possibly physical abuse. I wonder if Carver or someone else looked at this show's background, what it had become, and said, "Holy shit, this is rotten to the core," because, aside from Mary and Mary's mother, just about everyone above Sam and Dean in the family tree was beyond toxic, and when your show is mostly about men, you can't have much of a story of anguished sons crying over their misunderstood fathers or grandfathers.

This essentially takes away the pain and anger Dean and Sam have a right to feel. And while we could say, hey, this is Supernatural, this isn't a therapy session, this isn't real life, the show chose to put that stuff out there about John and what he did to his kids. I think it's disturbing to see this downplayed or ignored, especially if it's in the name of "family." If Dean is supposed to be OK with what was done to him because family is all that matters. I don't think Sam feels this way, and I'm glad Sam doesn't feel this way. I'm just wary of the idea that Dean must feel this way, and must accept abuse, because that's what big brothers do, that's what a good son does.

And an angel feather. Which Dean apparently keeps in the trunk of the Impala. I'm not sure what to make of that.

It mostly told me that I have even more reason to root for Dean/Castiel OTP, even though I know it won't happen.

Overall, a very good episode that felt very much like a season opener, but I am troubled that another plot has been added to what I perceive as an already crowded and underserviced season. I think pursuing the tablets or bringing forward Castiel's troubles would have been preferable to adding another layer. Of course, I am almost certainly too impatient, and perhaps this completely heretofore unknown league of observers and their library will dovetail into one of the existing storylines.

I think some of that might be mostly if they get another season.

Too bad they can't bring in Tony Head or Alexis Denisof as some of these observers.

Edited by steve91199, Jan 30, 2013 @ 10:34 PM.

[skeeter22]

I don't understand how a centuries old secret society charged with protecting the key to all things supernatural gets completely wiped out by one demon. I don't usually have any problem with suspension of disbelief, but that just seemed really stupid.

[Parcae3]

I forgot BABY!!!

Poor baby! Henry needed to be smacked just for that, LOL!

And I was sad when the Goth girl died. I liked her.

[steve91199]

That being said, the return of the 'Sammy' thing felt odd to me, more backsliding and putting Dean back into that old position without any real change on Sam's part.

I feel like the show might have decided the only way to get Dean and Sam back to what they want the brothers to be is to pretend this is season 1 or season 2. What I don't get is if this is the plan, why have all that ugly stuff in the first half of the season.

[Sudoka]

And an angel feather. Which Dean apparently keeps in the trunk of the Impala. I'm not sure what to make of that.

He did have Cas's trench coat back there for a long time, so maybe a feather was stuck to it with all the leviathan goop.

[Tippi Blevins]

So I guess Henry's wife didn't know anything about the Men of Letters? It's not like women weren't allowed, since Josie was there in some capacity. Otherwise, Mrs. Winchester would have told their son some version of the truth, right?

[amazinglybored]

I don't understand how a centuries old secret society charged with protecting the key to all things supernatural gets completely wiped out by one demon. I don't usually have any problem with suspension of disbelief, but that just seemed really stupid.

Arrogance, they seemed pretty damn elitist and arrogant about themselves and the information they had. Legacies and looking down on people fighting the same fight doesn't make for a very broad network, so a small group of people and growing sloppy from their own egos.

I feel like the show might have decided the only way to get Dean and Sam back to what they want the brothers to be is to pretend this is season 1 or season 2. What I don't get is if this is the plan, why have all that ugly stuff in the first half of the season.

I'd say to resolve some of the issues that have decimated the [s]abusive[/s] brotherly relationship but they didn't actually do that and I'm not sure they saw the need, or they just like the drama and think it's exciting. Either way it's a major problem within the show for me.

[Blackmantra53]

So I guess Henry's wife didn't know anything about the Men of Letters? It's not like women weren't allowed, since Josie was there in some capacity. Otherwise, Mrs. Winchester would have told their son some version of the truth, right?

In the era of the mid nineteen- fifties women often did not ask about their husband's work if he was not forthcoming, and this seemed a secretive society, much like the Masons so he may have been bound by oath to not reveal anything to anyone without permission.

I forgot to mention how much I liked the retro motel room. It was almost as wonderful as the disco room from Provenance.

Edited by Blackmantra53, Jan 30, 2013 @ 11:54 PM.

[Aeryn13]

I don't understand how a centuries old secret society charged with protecting the key to all things supernatural gets completely wiped out by one demon.

I felt in the end they were just a bunch of snobs with books. I mean "hunters are apes"? Smart enough to survive extinction, Henry. Which by Darwinism puts them far above you on the evolutional ladder.

I don`t know, the whole Winchesters being hailed from a "we`re not hunters, hunters" struck me a bit cheesy. And I`m someone who defended the show when Mary turned out to be hunter from a family of hunters.

Cupid bringing them together was explained in previous Seasons as bringing together bloodlines, the Cain and Abel descendants so I took it to mean, John and Mary could have been a farmer and an accountant respectively and didn`t have to be hunters vs. letter-men.

With John, the show is kind of all over the place. When he was alive, he was somewhat conflicted, mostly an asshat but with some redeeming backstory given. After his death, they started in on him culminating in Bobby claiming to have done the "raising" the brothers in the good sense. Now he gets a retroactive sob story on how he was abandoned as a kid? Thing is, I thought Matt Cohen-John seemed to be perfectly happy and sunny individual.

Also for the brothers and Dean especially it brings in epic character regression to go back to "must defend John" and "family trumps all". Especially when we have seen it doesn`t this Season.

I did like Smart!Dean coming up with a plan. The character was actually in fine form this episode.

[awab]

Smart Dean is for the win but I wish they'd show Henry as smarter guy cause thinking that he can just leave in the middle of a hunt to raise his kid? Having an demon knight on his tail? Any ape, sorry hunter would tell him it's a pipe dream and he won't be able to teach his kid anything cause he'll be dead. A demon easily traveled through time to the future, what would stop her to follow Henry back?

[Sudoka]

I feel like they were trying to redeem John a little bit, but honestly, him having been abandoned by his father doesn't mean he gets to turn around and treat his kids badly.

I think in the Jeffrey Dean Morgan thread there was a link to an interview where he mentioned not being happy with the way John had been represented over time, so perhaps this was an effort to make amends. JDM thread

Edited to add quote:

He was recently asked if he would be willing to return to Supernatural and said he would love too (and seems to really want too?), but says he's never been asked and doesn't think it will ever happen.

"Yes, I would go back if they asked me. My stance has always been that I would love to come back. In fact they have trashed John so fucking much on that show that I would like to go back just to set the record straight the real way...there are a couple of story lines that I'd like to resolve and more importantly those people mean a lot to me"

Edited by Sudoka, Jan 30, 2013 @ 10:46 PM.

[MichaelaBelle]

I don't understand how a centuries old secret society charged with protecting the key to all things supernatural gets completely wiped out by one demon.

With all that knowledge you would think they could keep a demon out of their headquarters.

[Lemuria]

I didn't think I was going to, but I liked it. I did want to slap Henry around a bit at the beginning, but by the end, I liked him, too! Lost some of that elitism and recognized the worth of the men his grandsons had become. Loved how he bonded with Dean. I felt rather sad at the end.

I also liked hearing what had originally been titled the "Dean's Family Theme" (I don't know if the title has been changed over the years). It's a very nice piece of music.

Glad to see Smart!Dean. Coming up with the plan that took out the Big Bad Demon and rescued the Samsel in Distress.

I didn't think Dean was either contradictory or overly harsh in regard to the time travel. With the exception of the Phoenix (who does not, at least in traditional lore, have offspring), he didn't choose to travel on those occasions. What Henry was going to try to do had the potential to change everything, and not necessarily for the better. It was a major crapshoot, and there were a lot more ways for it to go wrong than there were for it to go right.

I don't understand how a centuries old secret society charged with protecting the key to all things supernatural gets completely wiped out by one demon. I don't usually have any problem with suspension of disbelief, but that just seemed really stupid.

I thought they told us that Abaddon was a "Knight" of Hell, one of the first demons created, and thus was majorly powerful. And honestly? The "Men"--and how sexist is that?--Of Letters" were not all that impressive. I kept thinking how lucky Henry was to have the "apes" there to point out the clues! lol


Speaking of smarts: Sam, major boner there!

Which Dean apparently keeps in the trunk of the Impala. I'm not sure what to make of that.

Nudge nudge. Wink wink. Hee

Smart enough to survive extinction, Henry.

And Dean actually pointed that out at one point! I admit to loving the way he was snarking on Henry at the beginning.

Edited by Lemuria, Jan 30, 2013 @ 10:55 PM.

[steve91199]

I think in the Jeffrey Dean Morgan thread there was a link to an interview where he mentioned not being happy with the way John had been represented over time, so perhaps this was an effort to make amends.

The most damaging moments for John's character were scenes that JDM played. The first implication of John beating Dean was also in the first season. I'm surprised that he did not realize the message they were sending with John.

I feel like they just wanted to salvage the Winchester mythology, which is great, but Sam and Dean were abused children. I don't care if John could have been a good man in an alternate timeline. He abused his sons. Now his sons have to sit around and feel sorry for him and, in Dean's case, likely feel like they failed him. That's a shitty thing for children to have to do. It's not healthy and it's not very entertaining to see grown men have no outlets for life other than latching on to each other, because of their wreck of a father. Yet apparently the show sees this as some type of legacy.

I'd say to resolve some of the issues that have decimated the [s]abusive[/s] brotherly relationship but they didn't actually do that and I'm not sure they saw the need, or they just like the drama and think it's exciting. Either way it's a major problem within the show for me.

Maybe they feel like hey, get over it, you're family. Then why bring up all the text crap and all the rest in the first place.

I don't have a problem with Sam and Dean being close, wanting to protect each other. I just don't know why this has to be their only reason for being. Even in the first season, this was not their only reason for being. Sam wanted a life of his own. Dean wanted a life with Cassie, some kind of a life, if he'd had the chance.

Now their grandfather, who failed his son, came back and died, and the lesson is that family is all that matters. If anything this should show them the severe limitations of family and blood.

[Lemuria]

Now their grandfather, who failed his son, came back and died, and the lesson is that family is all that matters. If anything this should show them the severe limitations of family and blood.

steve, I thought we did get something of that. At the graveyard, when Sam is talking about how "Now I get it, etc" and about there being a legacy, Dean says something (I don't remember the exact words at the moment) about how all their family has is a history of dying. So, I saw it as Dean seeing that dark side to it.

Edited by Lemuria, Jan 30, 2013 @ 11:09 PM.

[steve91199]

I took that more as Dean's dark humor and being burnt out, while Sam, who was more detached from the family, in a way (since his only real parent was Dean), was able to see the legacy. I feel like that was about Sam being recharged, and maybe he will show Dean how to be recharged, and so on.

I actually think that's a good way to have Sam get back into seeing the purpose of hunting (or even beyond hunting), but I didn't like that they had to do this by reinforcing such toxic patterns. I wish they could just dump the whole Winchester and Campbell "legacy" for good, other than Mary, and maybe her mother.

[amazinglybored]

Maybe they feel like hey, get over it, you're family. Then why bring up all the text crap and all the rest in the first place.

The whole thing is stagnant and circular to me now; drama, 'resolution', repeat.

At the graveyard, when Sam is talking about how "Now I get it, etc" and about there being a legacy, Dean says something (I don't remember the exact words at the moment) about how all their family has is a history of dying. So, I saw it as Dean seeing that dark side to it.

That seemed like a ripoff of John's cremation scene to me, with Sam choosing to believe whatever (legacy = ivy league schools have legacies = acceptable or something in this case) and Dean seeing the dark reality of the situation (their family tree is fraught with death and toxic relationships). The legacy part rang hollow to me, at best it's a legacy of a failed society, and it still ties into family getting thrown aside for it.

[Lemuria]

with Sam choosing to believe whatever (legacy = ivy league schools have legacies = acceptable or something in this case) and Dean seeing the dark reality of the situation (their family tree is fraught with death and toxic relationships)

There is a similarity (though I think it was Adam's cremation scene and not John's), and I think that this also demonstrates one of the differences in Dean's and Sam's thinking. Dean has always been the more pragmatic of the two and has always been the one who could adapt to whatever the situation required ("Hollywood Babylon," for example), while Sam was always the one who wanted the world/reality to adapt to what he wanted (one of the reasons I feel that Sam will never truly be happy).

I'm hoping that we have finally seen the end of Sam's waffling back and forth on hunting vs. white picket fences, or that hunting doesn't count. As Dean said to him last week, Sam has to either be truly in or be out. Maybe he's made the decision and will finally stick to it.