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2-13: "Madness Ends" 2013.01.23


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#121

yoshi

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Posted Jan 25, 2013 @ 6:45 PM

Until i read through the forum I didn't even consider the possibility that it never happened. I just assumed it was a way to hammer home one of the themes of the season. ALSO she ended up literally staring evil in the face in the form of her son.
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#122

vinyl

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Posted Jan 25, 2013 @ 7:42 PM

I think Lana's Briarcliff expose was supposed to remind people of Willowbrook. The ending leaves me torn - at first I thought it meant that none of this ever happened, but then I can see how it simply echoes back to Lana's first visit to Briarcliff.

I do have a problem with the idea that ambition = evil. I don't think Lana was evil at all, she did come into contact with evil (BF) through her actions, but I don't think ambition itself is in any way evil, at least in Lana's case. She was able to create a very successful career for herself, and helped many along the way. Ambitious people are the only ones who get things done in the world, for the most part, IMO. Surely Ryan Murphy himself is quite ambitious!
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#123

Vultures

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Posted Jan 25, 2013 @ 8:15 PM

This season could have been a LOT more satisfying...

- Arden died on his own terms without ever being subjected to any kind of humiliation. A person who made such horrible human experiments should not decide how and when he gets to die. Death isn't good enough after all the buildup.

- The Monsignor ALSO died on his own terms after everything he had done. Where's the final confrontation between him and Jude? Did he ever even learn about her relase? Again, death isn't a good enough conclusion after all the buildup. We didn't get a taste of Jude's revenge here, so his death was pretty lame.

- Not a single scene of Lana and Jude when they're both out of Briarcliff? Again, why set up this interesting relationship if it's not gonna have a payoff? Kit getting her out of Briarcliff was okay, but a scene with Lana and Jude post-Briarcliff would've been way more satisfying than anything they did with Kit.

They missed out on some HUGE opportunities here, in my opinion.
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#124

bosawks

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Posted Jan 25, 2013 @ 8:54 PM

- Arden died on his own terms without ever being subjected to any kind of humiliation. A person who made such horrible human experiments should not decide how and when he gets to die. Death isn't good enough after all the buildup.

- The Monsignor ALSO died on his own terms after everything he had done. Where's the final confrontation between him and Jude? Did he ever even learn about her relase? Again, death isn't a good enough conclusion after all the buildup. We didn't get a taste of Jude's revenge here, so his death was pretty lame.



I've always been somewhat uncomfortable about the imagery of the Nazi seeking out his own death with his Aryan princess in an oven.

But I did love the fact that, in light of his own "crucifixion" the monsignor took his own life during the Easter holiday.
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#125

Whatsyourface

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Posted Jan 26, 2013 @ 12:22 AM

The Monsignor ALSO died on his own terms after everything he had done. Where's the final confrontation between him and Jude? Did he ever even learn about her relase? Again, death isn't a good enough conclusion after all the buildup. We didn't get a taste of Jude's revenge here, so his death was pretty lame.


I don't really know how or what Jude would have been able to do, but I think his death fit with the character we've come to see; he was a coward. Instead of admitting wrongdoing or trying to atone, he took a fatal bath. Personally, I've been very confused about his character. In the early episodes where he rarely appeared, I wondered what his purpose was. Then it was ambiguously shown that he had some "knowledge" about Arden: that he did experiments, yet he did not have the common sense to determine doing experiments on humans probably wasn't a very humane thing to do. After his idiocracy increased, it seemed that he was getting some sort of redemption by apologizing to Jude and killing SME. But after that, his character seemed to jump to a definitely bad person. He went to great lengths (well maybe not that great) to ensure Jude stayed locked up, for reasons I feel were too ambiguous, and then took the time to lie to her about letting her out. He then went on his merry way to live his life while he left an innocent woman to rot in an asylum.
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#126

BuddhaBelly

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Posted Jan 26, 2013 @ 1:48 AM

I think Grace was right, in a way, about the children being special and changing the world. Their unconditional love and compassion was evident, even at such a tender age. When Jude chased them around, running and screaming, they didn't see a scary crazy person, they saw someone hurting and in need of their help. Also, their "color blindness" in regard to race made them very unique given the time period. Alma's daughter so naturally calling Jude her Nana demonstrated that beautifully. And why wouldn't she? Her father was white. :) While her parents may have suffered a lot just for the natural right to be married and have a family, the result was a big pay off in the end.


I don't see how the aliens gave them anything special. Kit was an amazing person without alien interference and I'm sure would have raised his children to be compassionate. Julia would have been raised equally 'color blind' up until she ventured out to society just from the way her family was set up. I'm not pressed about it but the alien storyline really makes no sense.

- Not a single scene of Lana and Jude when they're both out of Briarcliff? Again, why set up this interesting relationship if it's not gonna have a payoff? Kit getting her out of Briarcliff was okay, but a scene with Lana and Jude post-Briarcliff would've been way more satisfying than anything they did with Kit.


Honestly, I don't think Lana deserved a final meeting with Jude. She made a promise that she didn't bother to keep and when she did bother to look into it, and see Kit in who knows how long, she brought a camera crew along. She wasn't looking for Jude but more details for her story. Lana was concerned about being seen as the hero and Kit quietly beat her to it.
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#127

Riff Randell

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Posted Jan 26, 2013 @ 7:46 AM

Despite his actions, I do believe Monsignor cared for Jude, but he cared about Rome more. His problem was that he was a coward, weak, and gullible. It took him being having his virtue taking AFTER being told by the Angel of Death that Jude was right and even then he only cared about Rome. So, was self-centered as well. What made me laugh bitterly was him saying that he didn't want to leave Jude in there--why didn't he get her out in the first place??? He changed her name and left her in the institution for years for no legit medical reason.

I agree that he had twisted feelings of some kind for Jude, but I dunno. I think that she probably did hallucinate his promise to get her out of there. Not because he wouldn't be enough of a shitbag to dangle false hope in front of her, but because he was so stuffed with pride that I doubt they had little to any interaction after their break-up scene in the common room - and it was a break-up, almost a romantic one, albeit of a celibate nature.

Despite his ambitions, Jude's esteem of him was what held the Monsignor together throughout most of the season. She was the only one he told about Rome. He was on the verge of tears after both exiling her to Pittsburgh and the first time we see her institutionalized. And if she'd been lucid enough after his rape to coolly call his bluff on renouncing his vows, I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd have come close to doing it (while still in a fit of panic), wanting her to hold his hand and soothe his ego the whole time.

But she snapped out of the fog enough to end things between them, in the most cutting way possible. She called him foolish, disgusting, pathetic. She admitted she'd once had feelings for him, after reminding him he'd lost his virtue to the devil instead of a woman who loved him. Then she bitch-slapped his sights on Rome with a disdainful laugh, while seductively laying her head on that young orderly's shoulder. Now, that's a quadruple burn even Satan would be proud of. Sending her to that hole was just as much a vicious lash back at her for breaking his ego as it was to keep her quiet. It just happened to dovetail together nicely for him.

(Re-watching the first episode, it's almost hilarious to notice in retrospect that while Jude was lusting over him, he was trying in his own awkward, 40-year-old virgin way to seduce her, as well; he strokes her hand instead of just holding it, and he treats going to Rome like their damn honeymoon. Not to mention the creepy way he fondled her red lingerie later on. Right, the devil is the one who took your "virtue". Okay, buddy.)

After his idiocracy increased, it seemed that he was getting some sort of redemption by apologizing to Jude and killing SME.

I didn't read those scenes as his redemption at all. His "apology" to Jude was laughable. After discovering Mary Eunice's true identity, he made no move to release Jude; he only came crawling back to her after he failed on his own, and felt he'd lost everything (ironic that he considered his rape his "loss of virtue" instead of the plethora of monstrous things he'd done himself). Not because he was contrite, but because she always used to hold his hand and make him feel like a big, important man. Jesus, was there a single man this season without crippling issues about women? Not only that, but he's known Jude for years and writes off her inability to verbalize as "medicinal side effects", while Lana, who's known her for a handful of months, not only instantly knows something is wrong after the electroshock, but immediately goes to comfort her. The Monsignor's "comfort" was along the lines of "yeah, sucks that Satan fried your brains, let's talk about me now".

I also don't see his killing of Mary Eunice as truly selfless, either; it was only after she told him that she'd be running the show in their little race to Rome, calling him weak and telling him she owned him, that he became incensed enough to try killing her again. His pride is his Achilles heel.

I find the Monsignor a bigger dangling plot thread than the aliens, honestly - his motivations were twisted all over the place, and I'm not sure if it's the result of uneven writing, Fiennes not knowing ahead of time where they were taking his character, or dropped plot points (the latter is certainly possible; quite a few scenes between him and Jude in the promos were cut from the episodes, which might explain why their relationship seems to have a lot of missing gaps).

Despite this, Jude still got to live out her dream from the very first episode of spending the rest of her life with a man of God who respected her - only it ended up being kind, selfless Kit. Meanwhile, the Monsignor died alone. Yeah, I wish he'd suffered more, but I'll take what we were given.

Edited by Riff Randell, Jan 26, 2013 @ 7:48 AM.

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#128

MmmAspartame

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Posted Jan 26, 2013 @ 9:21 AM

- Not a single scene of Lana and Jude when they're both out of Briarcliff? Again, why set up this interesting relationship if it's not gonna have a payoff? Kit getting her out of Briarcliff was okay, but a scene with Lana and Jude post-Briarcliff would've been way more satisfying than anything they did with Kit.

I couldn't disagree more...I wasn't really dying to see Lana and Jude together. Lana changed after leaving the Asylum. I did enjoy seeing the relationship between her and Kit post-Asylum though. I like the chemistry between the two of them. He's the only person she still seems vulnerable post after becoming this hardened reporter.

I do agree about Arden- would have liked to see him suffer a lot more.
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#129

yoshi

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Posted Jan 26, 2013 @ 5:50 PM

I don't think Lana so much changed after leaving the asylum as she reverted to form. She was calculating and ambitious when she went it and ended up being calculating and ambitious.
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#130

vinyl

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Posted Jan 26, 2013 @ 6:54 PM

Honestly, I don't think Lana deserved a final meeting with Jude. She made a promise that she didn't bother to keep and when she did bother to look into it, and see Kit in who knows how long, she brought a camera crew along. She wasn't looking for Jude but more details for her story. Lana was concerned about being seen as the hero and Kit quietly beat her to it.


In her defense, Lana DID go back to the asylum for Jude, not long after she got out and killed BF. That's when she went back with the police and the Monsignor told them Jude had committed suicide and showed them her (fake) death certificate. I'm not sure what else Lana could have done to save Jude at that time. Monsignor was particularly evil in that scene, actually blaming Lana for Jude's death by mentioning that, if Lana had come looking for her sooner, maybe Jude wouldn't have killed herself. So wrong.
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#131

curlyblackeggs

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Posted Jan 26, 2013 @ 7:51 PM

I do agree that the final scene was a means to bookend the series, but I also thought it was a flashback -- purely for the audience -- to the moment when Lana chose to look into the face of evil, the moment that was the incendiary to this whole story.

As for Dr. Arden, Mary Eunice, etc: these characters were never the focus. The focus, as established in the pilot, was Lana, Jude, and Kit. These tertiary characters were significant, but not primary. It's the double-edged sword of a show that will flesh out plots or supporting characters: we rarely get a FULL story, because theirs was never the story we were meant to hear.

I loved the aliens "taking Kit home." It made me wonder if we're meant to believe the aliens do this all over the world, planting seeds and creating great minds, taking their aides to a place other than death (could be paradise, could be a chemical lab) -- and we just caught one of these stories in the crossfire of Bloodyface and Briarcliff.

We can assume that he let the bookstore lady live and she was the one who alerted the cops that Johnny was going after Lana, which would explain why the cops were talking to her and showing her his picture


I assumed they were showing her photos because of the Adam Levine incident?

Random theory for the Adam story: these modern day Bloodyface fans are glorifying him. Bloodyface Jr. is tracking them, enraged that they are trying to take over his father's legacy. The modern-days note that on Adam Levine's wedding website, he and his wife are blogging about their tour of haunted asylums and such. They plan to ambush the couple, but Bloodyface Jr. sees this as an opportunity to ambush them all at once.

This season certainly was manic in it's storytelling, but it was fitting with the 'asylum' theme, and it certainly kept the Internet-savvy audience salivating to the last moment. I prefer the red herrings to a story that loses all meaning because it tries to wrap up all plots, giving definitive answers where they needn't be.

I will definitely be back for season three.

Edited by curlyblackeggs, Jan 27, 2013 @ 10:23 AM.

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#132

bilgistic

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Posted Jan 26, 2013 @ 8:13 PM

I assumed they were showing her photos because of the Adam Levine incident?

I read the end of this line as "Adam Levine concert".
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#133

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Posted Jan 26, 2013 @ 9:55 PM

I thought the episode was amazing. The endings...not so much. I hated Lana the whole season so I was pissed she was the only one that survived. Call me heartless, I suppose, but I kinda really wanted Johnny to kill her. Well, not necessarily, but I'm more mad that the finale completely revolved around her. I didn't like the interview format.
During the scene when she went back to Briarcliff I wanted to punch her. Can't do anything good without the camera rolling.

Jude's post-Briarcliff story (and, by extension, Kit's) was hands down my favorite part. Her death scene had me bawling. I loved the dynamic that she and Kit had.

Kit being taken by the aliens was idiotic. Especially since we're left to assume that they didn't really bother with him much for the rest of his life. I mean, I'm assuming he and his new wife had sex...where were the aliens then? Was anything mentioned about his wife that I just don't remember? Are we supposed to believe she was also abducted? What a pointless storyline.

I found the monsignor's death to be satisfying. More so than Arden's, definitely.

I keep going back and forth on the theory of "was it all just made up?" I'm looking forward to hearing something from RM about it.

Side note, I groaned upon seeing Adam Levine again, even if it was just a flashback. I actually texted my friend saying "I THOUGHT WE WERE DONE WITH THIS GUY"
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#134

ThatPoshGirl

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Posted Jan 26, 2013 @ 9:58 PM

I'm sure this will sound horrible, but the Monsignor made a beautiful corpse.
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#135

Majipoor

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Posted Jan 29, 2013 @ 1:58 AM

Kit is Stephen King!!! He was kidnapped by the aliens so he could gather research for his future books because they really like his stories.
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#136

Zyx

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Posted Feb 2, 2013 @ 5:14 PM

I didn't like Lana any better this episode than the last. It seemed to me that she had just learned to hide her cold, ruthless ambition a little better now that she has success, money, and everything she ever wanted. I don't think she's evil but she's still a user who has to be reminded to care about other people; it certainly doesn't come naturally to her. Her natural instinct is to exploit them - for example, ambushing Kit with her camera crew. Maybe her girlfriend taught her manners since she doesn't snap at the help any more.

I wasn't watchimg particularly attentively - I found this episode boring - but Lana's actions didn't make a whole lot of sense. If she knew Son of Bloody Face was in her apartment, why didn't she leave with the rest of the crew when she had the chance. She could just say, "I'll walk down with you to the lobby", and then called the police as soon as she left the apartment.

Kit being taken by the aliens was idiotic. Especially since we're left to assume that they didn't really bother with him much for the rest of his life. I mean, I'm assuming he and his new wife had sex...where were the aliens then? Was anything mentioned about his wife that I just don't remember? Are we supposed to believe she was also abducted? What a pointless storyline.


Kit's wife just sort of disappears after he gets sick. She's inexplicably not there when he's abducted - and there's no mention of how she reacts to his disappearance, just the kids. Another untidy dropped thread. Why begin something in the very last episode and then drop it?

Didn't like Jude's "men are evil; they'll do you down if you don't watch it" speech at the end. Too simplistic and reductive. Let's all forget how Sister Jude acted when she had the power and blame it all on the evil menfolk.
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#137

bigredcat7

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Posted Feb 3, 2013 @ 5:44 PM

She could just say, "I'll walk down with you to the lobby", and then called the police as soon as she left the apartment.

Too much of a chance he gets suspicious and gets away. Also, Lana knew what he had done. Since she brought him into the world, she knew she had to be the one to dispose of him. She was at a point in her life where she would have been OK with either outcome: He kills her or she kills him.

Kit's wife just sort of disappears after he gets sick. She's inexplicably not there when he's abducted - and there's no mention of how she reacts to his disappearance, just the kids.

The story was never about Kit's new wife. She was only mentioned to let people know Kit had a happy life after all of the torture and torment. And family members don't spend every minute of every day with their loved ones at the end -- they still have to eat, shower and use the rest room. Lana said Kit just disappeared, leaving no trace behind. How others reacted to the mystery wasn't part of the story.

Edited by bigredcat7, Feb 3, 2013 @ 5:48 PM.

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#138

Zyx

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Posted Feb 3, 2013 @ 8:39 PM

Too much of a chance he gets suspicious and gets away. Also, Lana knew what he had done. Since she brought him into the world, she knew she had to be the one to dispose of him. She was at a point in her life where she would have been OK with either outcome: He kills her or she kills him.


To me, that's poetic or literary license - metaphor rather than real world logic. Lana's not to blame for deciding not to abort him; she's not responsible morally or in any other way for his actions. So why is she embracing this "kill him or die trying" martyrdom when there are other alternatives? It's much more dangerous staying in the room alone with him than it is trying to leave with the tv crew.

"I brought you into this world; I can take you out again" isn't actually meant to be taken literally. Son of Bloodyface blames Lana for his crimes; with this ending, Lana (rather bizarrely) seems to agree with him.

Perhaps I'm supposed to see the death of present-day Bloodyface as the crowning achievement of Lana's successful career as an alternative universe Barbara Walters. Here ends the Briarcliff story as told by crusading journalist Lana Winters. Her last and greatest blockbuster. I have to admit that I'm not quite sure what the writers/ producers' intentions were in this episode. Generally, I've found the last couple of episodes (once Kit and Lana left the asylum) not as compelling. The writers/producers seem to be trying to cover too much time and too many events, so everything is left sketchy and under-developped.

The story was never about Kit's new wife. She was only mentioned to let people know Kit had a happy life after all of the torture and torment.


Did they even give her a name? If so, I can't remember it. That's how superfluous she was.

I think that there were too many characters introduced and then carelessly discarded along the way - the Mexican, Pepper, Shelley, Grace, Alma, Spivey, Leigh Emerson, Mrs. Kit the Third ...most of them dead. It could be argued that a lot of corpses is par for the course for a show called "Amercian Horror Story" but last season was a bit more cohesive, and the deaths (Addie's in particular) mattered more and carried more emotional weight.

Edited by Zyx, Feb 3, 2013 @ 8:53 PM.

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#139

vinyl

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Posted Feb 15, 2013 @ 8:16 PM

I think Lana DID think it was her fault for not aborting him, and that she needed to kill him now to right that wrong.
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#140

Bkwrm

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Posted Oct 10, 2013 @ 8:01 PM

IMHO, a better ending would have been if Johnny had been delusional and not Lana's biological child at all. 

 

I hate the idea that A) adoption is some sort of evil, adopted children are all damaged by being adopted, dooming said children to forever searching for the Truth,

 

and B) we are all doomed by our biology - that's like saying he had no CHOICE but to butcher people. 

 

 

I'd have preferred it if Lana had taken the gun and said, "By the way - the baby I gave birth to is a dentist. He lives in Kansas with his wife and three children - I wasn't there to see you at the playground, you delusional monster." 


Edited by Bkwrm, Oct 10, 2013 @ 8:03 PM.

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