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4-3: "Truth And Consequences" 2013.01.22


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#91

mrk63

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Posted Jan 29, 2013 @ 3:52 PM

While I agree that Leonard doesn't give equal time to the ladies, I wouldn't label him an active mysoginist. Save that for the Republican party... I kid! I kid.


I didn't mean to imply he was a mysoginist. Maybe he just doesn't 'get' women. But I do think he tends to short them in the character department.

#92

Leroyiscrazy

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Posted Jan 29, 2013 @ 4:45 PM

Aside from picking the wrong guys, what chronic problem does Winona have? Note that she breaks up with men if she's unhappy with them, which is unlike the women of Harlan.

She finds out she's pregnant, she gives the daddy, whom she liked a lot, another chance. Still doesn't work? It was worth a shot. She leaves.



I agree. They were on really shakey ground and she was ready to give him his space before she knew about babyGivens. So her reaction to him going to Harlan in Bloody Harlan was easy for me to understand. His actions and the baby clarified things for her real fast. She loves Raylan, she'd prefer it if he didn't almost die everyday or bring danger into their home. She's not trying to get shot at, and she's epecially not ok with their child being put in danger. Raylan doesn't seem to care all that much about fallout of his actions and how they affect others. She understands that and makes the decision that it's not going to work and leaves.



As to the way these writers deal with female characters, I think it's interesting that they couldn't find a way to make Lindsey "interesting" going forward without connecting her to a man to give her a backstory. It would have been more interesting for me as a viewer if they found a way to make her complicate Raylan's life w/o bringing an ex lover into it. Either way, hopefully they are both gone after tonights episode.

#93

virgo79

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Posted Jan 29, 2013 @ 5:53 PM

You are so right about Cassie. She and Boyd are due for a reckonig of some kind. There has to be more to her story. I so totally forgot about her. Maybe it is just my imagination, but Cassie seems to have a hooded-eyed, snake-like look about her. The question is, is she the good snake of wisom and enlightenment (Sophia), or the bad snake of The Fall? Maybe both. I fear that she will strike back at Boyd. I just hope she does not put that serpent in Boyd's toolbox into his bed or something. Yikes!


I see what you mean about her being rather snakelike. The expression, yes, but also even the way she talks and moves; she's very soft-spoken -- but not in a shy or insecure way; she's just got that hushed whisper of a voice.

I tend to think that if she does end up taking some sort of revenge against Boyd, she's going to be more of the "eye for an eye" type. I think she'd do to him what he did to her and take someone he loves, rather than going after Boyd himself. That's a short list. Ava. *Maybe* Raylan, depending on which way the wind's blowing that day. I don't know about this new friend of his (is it Colt? Colter?). Can't figure out just how deep that relationship runs yet.

I agree a hundred percent about the lighting in the Arlo scenes in the prison. Particularly the cell -- it was *black*.

#94

DrJoy

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Posted Jan 29, 2013 @ 6:34 PM

As to the way these writers deal with female characters, I think it's interesting that they couldn't find a way to make Lindsey "interesting" going forward without connecting her to a man to give her a backstory. It would have been more interesting for me as a viewer if they found a way to make her complicate Raylan's life w/o bringing an ex lover into it.


LeroyisCrazy, As a viewer, I feel the same about Rachel. Why can't she be fully fleshed, with all her strengths & weaknesses, without bringing in a male/husband as an explanation of why she may be unable to hold it together. Ick. She has enough going on to be able to construct a more interesting narrative. That's just me. I thought Lindsey started out as interesting. I won't repeat what I think about that Lindsey saw the money in the drawer device to make her into something else. How nice would it have been just to have Lindsey's bar recurring as a place for the characters to have occasional down time together, Lindsey as a font of wisdom & truths ;) That is probably another boring trope as well, LOL.

I wouldn't label Elmore Leonard as a misogenyst. I don't see that. His style of writing is his and his works (and movies based on them) have a myriad fans, male and female. Like most respected writers, he writes what he knows. His Raylan bears only glancing resemblance to our TV. I have admiration for his writing style, and there is a lot of wit, but I have no love for his books, characters or plots. Fire in the Hole was short, thank goodness, and being the first EL read, I could appreciate how the series came to be. Could not wait to buy Raylan (actually, I got it from the library); I got 3/4 through Raylan and could not finish no matter how many times I tried. I really struggled to finish Pronto. IMO, Justified writers have done a fine job using the source material, and have lifted some passages-dialogue included- that worked very, very well and quite humorously. When they springboard from EL, the results have been brilliant (ie, Walton's Boyd, Tim's Raylan, etc). Mining for ideas is one thing. That they may still be wearing WWLD arm bands scares the sh** out of me. Free your minds, writers.

I wouldn't say that. That's like saying the Justified writers have a problem with black characters because they made Limehouse and Joey Adair villains. This is a crime series and most of the people shown in this universe are going to be bad or broken on some level.


Atomic Clock, I was agreeing with what you had said, straight up, without interpretation. I did not mean to appear to be interpreting what you said by my segue into my opinion. I started to edit and move my sentence starting with "IMO.." to a separate paragraph, but I was too lazy to log back in.

I can look at and talk about Justified both in a straight-up entertainment way, but I also enjoy analyzing through the lens of mythology. Similar to the lens through which popular entertainment movies such as original Star Wars or The Matrix might be viewed: examples of the hero's journey, or several separate character journeys, reflected in archetypes, symbolism, myth and metaphor, masks of god, etc. It works for me and adds to the interest. There is no equivalence in the statement that saying the writers have a problem with female characters is the same as saying they have a problem with black characters. Stereotype and archetype are not the same thing in my analysis.

Very simplistically stated, secular mythologies are concerned with personal healing, transcendent spirituality achieved through personal experience, achieving wholeness, balancing and integrating the male and female aspects of the soul. Boyd, Ava, Limehouse, Raylan,Tim, et al are all struggling to make themselves whole.

ETA: The writers did their research and gave us a bit of history in Noble's Holler. I wish we get to see some of the women there this season or next.

Drat, I have to wait until tomorrow to watch on Amazon.

Edited by DrJoy, Jan 29, 2013 @ 6:50 PM.


#95

PictureItSicily

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Posted Jan 29, 2013 @ 7:50 PM

Aside from picking the wrong guys, what chronic problem does Winona have? Note that she breaks up with men if she's unhappy with them, which is unlike the women of Harlan.

Actually, she cheats on men when she is unhappy with them, then she breaks up with them once she knows she has a backup. That's a pretty icky character trait. YMMV.

#96

benteen

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Posted Jan 29, 2013 @ 9:34 PM

And instead of telling Raylan she was leaving him, she left a chickenshit letter (props to whomever posted that) for him instead.

Not to mention Winona decided to steal the evidece room money, which indicates a troubled mind.

#97

TWoP Mars

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Posted Jan 29, 2013 @ 11:53 PM

Please make sure that your posts in here are about THIS EPISODE only. I know it's confusing to go from a single thread to a full forum, but the point is that you should post in the proper thread on any given topic. If you have questions, feel free to ask me in the Moderator thread.