29 replies to this topic

[urlittledogtoo]

Dangerous Persuasions

All-New Series Premieres Wednesday, January 16 at 10 PM E/P -
(Silver Spring) - People are often scared of what goes bump in the night. But what if the most dangerous monsters were the very same people your life depended on? Following extraordinary and terrifyingly true tales of psychological manipulation, Investigation Discovery's latest series DANGEROUS PERSUASIONS explores everyday people who were brainwashed into making remarkable sacrifices and committing unthinkable acts in the process. Told through intimate, first-person accounts, each hour-long episode details the captivating stories of people who were lured into a web of deceit and lost themselves along the way. False prophets, criminal masterminds, and sociopathic con-artists who prey on the innocent are just some of the Machiavellian architects at the center of these unbelievable and shocking true stories. DANGEROUS PERSUASIONS premieres Wednesday, January 16 at 10 PM E/P on Investigation Discovery.

Dangerous Persuasions

I really enjoyed the premiere episode, perhaps because during the same period of time she was in Scientology I was deep inside a completely different cult and I totally get where she was coming from. I think unless you’ve been there it’s really hard to imagine how insidious it can be, how innocent it all sounds one step at a time…and then there you are. She’s fortunate she got out with an intact marriage and her son, some people wind up leaving everyone behind them and suffer a permanent break from family, spouses, and children.

I am looking forward to this series and what other tales they have to tell.

[Neeney]

I watched it, too, just to see if it was any good and I was impressed. If ID doesn't take this series down the cheeze ball road, or do the same old stories that we see over and over again, it might join the few good shows that ID has.

[glitterintheair]

Loved it! I was caught up in something similar and she is so right - you just wake up one day and wonder what in the hell am I doing?!?? Easier to fall into something than most people think. Looking forward to tonight.

[urlittledogtoo]

Regarding the woman who fell into the arms of the false 'Mormon' prophet, I have to hand it to her. It took an enormous amount of guts to tell that story to a national audience the way she did. I mean, she knows we're all thinking 'what the hell are you doing!!??' every five minutes but she pulled herself up and told us what she did and why she did it, warts and all. I give her credit for that. Mormonism is particularly set up to be the absolute worst combination of desirable female (and male, frankly) personality attributes along side a belief in present day prophets and obedience and this woman is not the first person to find herself in a situation where the two come together to completely mess up their minds and their lives. I am not knocking Mormonism itself as a religion although it's not my thing at all, but just the psychology of the expectation of a current prophet and present day new scripture revelation combined with a passive acceptance and unquestioning obedience that gets passed along the line to a lot of women and girls especially. It's one of the things that tripped up Elizabeth Smart when she was kidnapped and made it easier to brainwash her, that expectation that this impossibly awful man who declared himself a prophet and that God told him to tell her to follow him and that it could all be true. It's how those truly devout Mormon folks got talked into murdering an innocent family, including three little girls, back in the nineties in Ohio - they fell under the sway of the same claims this David guy alleged, that their leader was the secret Prophet, and he told them God wanted them to kill these people. And so they just fell in line and did it. From the outside it's almost impossible to comprehend how you get from 'family fun night' and squeaky clean dances to 'God told me to tell you that you are my fourth wife' or 'God told me to tell you to kill that five year old girl'.

This is why I think it was important for this woman to tell her story, as weird as it sounds to others, because the danger really does exist for very devout Mormons, to get caught up in bizarre cults and frauds like this. Hopefully her story will be a warning to others.

[elliegeek1]

Very good analysis, urlittledogtoo! I agree with you, it was brave of her but boy, did I have a hard time not saying, are you an idiot? every five minutes. It's amazing what this woman was willing to do just on the word of this guy.

[Enero]

It's amazing what this woman was willing to do just on the word of this guy.

But it's the word or wants of God, at least that's how those who find themselves caught up in such things think. Still I find myself wondering why they believe God has to speak to them through someone else? If God wants you to be this man's 4th or even 1st wife why would he just tell the man and not you? You are after all an important part of this revelation. But I guess it goes back to what urlittledogtoo was saying about the obedient and submissive mindset these folks have, specifically the women.

[urlittledogtoo]

Well, in Mormonism women are saved through men. They aren't saved on their own. That's a very simplistic way of saying that, but it's built into the religion. And although salvation itself isn't at issue in fundamentalist Christianity (not Mormonism), there are a lot of small and sometimes not so small sects out there who believe that authority goes from God to men to the women they are 'covering' and down to the children. And in a system like that men's opinions and statements about what God told them to do and to tell the women they must do holds a lot of power if the woman herself believes that way too. So I can totally see the woman in last night's episode falling into that mindset, just as I can see a woman in a fundamentalist Christian sect falling into it if that is the preaching of the denomination/sect. Personally, I was in a cult where women were more equal and no one spoke to God for anyone else so I have a hard time with that concept myself. But I know a number of women in other fundamentalist Christian sects and groups who were told that the man in their life was acting as God to them and that they had to listen and obey and do what God had revealed to him for her. Some men take it to a level where they believe they are acting as God to their wives and want them to be perfect as God wants them to be perfect and feel justified in completely dominating every bite they eat, their exercise, anything they might do or think that would be negative or hurtful, to the point of crazymaking micromanagement, all in the name of 'God put me over you to perfect you and I am only doing what God would want me to do to make you a better person'. All the while the man can be a complete jerk and overweight and have all kinds of faults but the woman can't say a word because he is subject only to God's work to perfect HIM and no one is perfect etc and seriously you just want to smack them it's so hypocritical. But that's the mindset. So yeah, she believed God spoke to a man and told the man to tell her what to do. It's all sadly familiar to me.

[Runner123]

I'm really enjoying this too. It's a nice placeholder until my Lt. Joe comes back. :)

I really enjoyed the episode on Scientology. It confirmed many things that I had thought, or heard on my own. I did have a harder time watching the second episode, due to wanting to shake her every three minutes and say, WHAT?? WHY???? But I do understand how you can become so caught up in something like that, that everything gets twisted around. I do agree she was very brave to put her story out there, and I'm very glad she seems to have had a happy ending. I enjoyed reading your analysis, urlittledogtoo, (also a Lt. Kenda fan, if I remember).

[ScrubMonkey]

I don't know too much about the LDS church, and Elizabeth Smart said she didn't run because she thought he'd kill her family; but the way this blond woman kept talking about "he's a Prophet; I must do as he says" hinted at being trained to be absolutely obedient in such cases. (ETA: I don't know that that's a religious thing, though; I think she had a dependent personality disorder.) But then again it didn't seem different than any other cult in that regard. (Not the LDS church but this fake prophet's 'church' was cult like. And he was an admitted atheist.)

I also kept thinking she must be unusually 'innocent' as her son said or 'gullible' - or some of both. Her friend said she was brainwashed - also possible. The creep really broke her will down bit by bit. Then again I thought part of her wanted to let go and have an excuse to, even if that was really in her deep subconscious. Isn't living in a parole flophouse and showering in the communal shower a line most people won't willingly cross, let alone 'hooker for god?'

Quite a dramatic episode, though. I felt like I couldn't miss any of it and inwardly was watching with mouth hanging open. I don't think I actually was, but I kept marveling at her sinking lower and lower and lower. And then, marveling that she got out of it all again, apparently unscathed. That's a small miracle in itself.

Edited by ScrubMonkey, Feb 2, 2013 @ 12:09 PM.

[Neeney]

Never mind.

Edited by Neeney, Feb 2, 2013 @ 9:22 AM.

[canaanite2]

The episode about the woman who was held captive for 8 years was horrifying. From the moment her head was locked in that box in the car the brainwashing had begun. I have a feeling some people watched this and rolled their eyes and were like "Why didn't she call someone? Why didn't she run somewhere when she had the chance? Why didn't she tell a neighbor? Why didn't she tell her family?" But anyone who has been in a controlling relationship would understand how it all went down and why she didn't do the "logical" things she should have done. Even though the majority of controlling/abusive relationships aren't nearly this bad (thank God!), there are similarities. The only thing that I would consider faulting the victim for was hitchhiking, but I guess it was commonplace among young people at that time and the ones who didn't pay for that mistake were just lucky.

[smittykins]

In the late '80s, I read Perfect Victim, the book on the case written by prosecutor Christine McGuire, and was discussing it with a coworker who asked many of those same questions. I was trying to explain it to her, then just handed her the book and said, "Read it." When she did, she understood.

[urlittledogtoo]

Re what I said about Elizabeth Smart, I was going off early reports on that and I haven't read what she has said/written now that she's an adult so I withdraw that statement. Whatever she says was her reasoning at the time I won't dispute that obviously. Perhaps instead I should use the example of Colonia LeBaron and the statements made by Vernon LeBaron's wives as well as what we know of Ervil LeBaron's psychopathic hold on his followers there. It's fascinating reading. But it does give a good example of good well intentioned people being manipulated by the use of their own scriptures to conform to the will of a man who had nothing but his own egotistical desires at heart. And I want to make clear that I am not saying that the Mormon religion or scriptures are wrong or that those who believe them are wrong, I am saying that for a person who wants to manipulate and control someone else, there is a very good starting point in there to launch from and it behooves folks to be careful of that fact when confronted with self-proclaimed Mormon prophets. Every belief system has a weakness within it that can be exploited in some way by psychopaths and manipulators if you become expert in the scriptures or system and find a fertile audience for it. It doesn't even have to be religious for that to work. I was just pointing out the Mormon achilles heel if you will. All belief systems have an achilles heel. That doesn't make them untrue, it just means that's a point you have to watch out for where the unscrupulous can take advantage of your good nature.

[canaanite2]

I am not knocking Mormonism itself as a religion although it's not my thing at all, but just the psychology of the expectation of a current prophet and present day new scripture revelation combined with a passive acceptance and unquestioning obedience that gets passed along the line to a lot of women and girls especially.

I'll knock any religion that subjugates women. I'm tired of it. This woman's freefall began when she confessed to having sex outside of marriage (an archaic "sin") and was promptly excommunicated. I doubt a man in the church would have been trained in a way that he would have been compelled to confess in the first place, even though men supposedly have to live by the same rules regarding their sex lives. This poor woman had to endure two years of judgment and was practically obsessed with being accepted by her church again. In a way, she was already brainwashed, just in a less harmful way. This idea that only men can speak for God is unacceptable to me, and I don't care what religion proclaims it.

I've only watched the first half. Was it explained why she was so gullible and naive? Were there any details given on her first marriage? I have a feeling her ex-husband did a number on her, and that combined with her religion, set her up to be a victim of a con artist. If it wasn't this guy, it would have been someone else. It was only a matter of time.

[ScrubMonkey]

No, it was never explained why she was so naive. It just said, or implied, her downfall began once she was excommunicated. She fell apart and then would do anything to get back into heaven. She also thought her children were damned unless she somehow saved them all. I'm not sure where all of that came from. Her son said she has always been and still is very 'innocent' - I read her as a true believer, who is tougher on herself than anyone else could ever be, which the sociopath exploited. I thought it especially evil at the end, when the sociopath's former friend said "he said he would go to Mormon dances to meet women, because they were so easy to get. They were always looking for hope." What a horrible, exploitive monster.

I saw the episode about a husband and father who brainwashed his entire family to go along with his coke-fueled paranoiac delusions. He beat and put a gun to the head of his wife and mostly psychologically tortured them all. He got life in prison. Did anyone see that episode? Odious man.

[Callasin]

I saw that episode with the paranoid father. When she had all but one kid in the car I was saying Go! Go! and send social services for the other kid.

[BondGirl]

The most recent episode is really frightening. Even worse, the guy still sees nothing wrong with what he did.

[MorganleFae]

RE: the crazy woman who believed she was married to the Prophet. I watched that show and was torn between laughing and crying. Then I made my ex Mormon husband watch it with me. Ok, the bad guy apparently really knew his Joseph Smith, and that is pretty much all it takes, I guess, to get a woman to marry you. I am really torn about this episode. Excommunication for having sex, that is kind of a tough sentence. If this woman was so devout that she actually "confessed" to the bishops of her ward, she probably would not have had the sex to begin with. And then to have to do whatever it was to get rebaptized, though it really didn't sound like much more than going to church every Sunday and attending study groups, all normal, regular activities to begin with, and then throw it all away when a guy who looks like her "dream man" comes into her life? Not sure that is a normal response. Now we already know that women are nothing in the LDS church, unless they have a husband and can produce children. The thing about being with her children for all eternity is the big draw for some people. A temple marriage is called being "sealed" and you are married for time and all eternity. But there are a whole lot of divorces in the LDS church. And no one has ever been able to explain how that works, in the afterlife. I am guessing that this woman had a temple marriage for her first one, since she was talking about having her children with her in heaven. What is rarely talked about is the fact that there is a rather odd system of belief in dreams, and seeing into the future, in the church. Everyone gets a reading, though it isn't called that. It is called a Patriarchal Blessing. Perhaps she was told about finding the evil guy, but they forgot to put the evil part into the reading. The thing that gets me is her telling this on TV. I am very open about my life, but there are a few things I keep to myself, and damn, I would keep that way deep inside. For her children's sake at least. I would be willing to bet her upbringing was very much LDS, which made her the doormat type. I will say at the end, in the video of her most recent marriage, it was not in the temple, because she was wearing a strapless gown, which isn't allowed. You do need special permission after a divorce, to remarry in the temple. Ok, long winded person will stop now, lol. And I like Joe Kenda, too.

[ScrubMonkey]

Saw the episode with the extremist mountain men or whatever they were. Let's see, they began as a Christian fellowship in the mountains, became neo Nazis and then domestic terrorists. Wow. I kept thinking at what point does someone's inner metronome kick in and say something is off here? Everyone likes to fit in, sure, but to the point you are agreeing to all of that? I felt worse for the women in the group. "God told me to take a second wife." Yeah, up yours, buddy!

[canaanite2]

Regarding the episode with the paranoid guy who insisted his father-in-law was a satanist/pedophile, was anyone else confused by it? I actually went back to the beginning to see if I missed something. I couldn't figure out how the wife so easily and quickly believed him. It wasn't explained very well. I'm wondering if her own drug use was downplayed because that's the only way I can imagine her going from thinking her marriage was on the rocks and her husband was going through a midlife crisis to being brainwashed into thinking that her father was part of a satanic cult and that she sexually abused her own children in such a short period of time. It seemed like such a leap. Maybe she already had a difficult relationship with her father and that was also downplayed for the show. It's hard to say since it seems there was a lot left out of the story. Whatever the relationship was with her father, it couldn't have been that strong if he and the rest of the family were willing to disown her because of her accusations. If your adult child accused you of being in a satanic cult wouldn't you worry that something is seriously wrong with them and try to get them help? Her old friend is the hero of this story. She saw an old friend in trouble and decided to try to help her instead of just shaking it off and going on with her own life. What she did took guts and character. She did what the woman's (can't remember her name) family should have been doing. Another thing I couldn't figure out was whether the husband was truly sick and paranoid or if he was faking it the whole time.

I'm starting to see how this show works. If the victim is open and honest it gives you a fascinating look into how people can be brainwashed. OTOH if they leave things out to protect themselves or others, things don't add up and you're left going 'huh?'

I saw that episode with the paranoid father. When she had all but one kid in the car I was saying Go! Go! and send social services for the other kid.

This was about the only part of the story that made sense to me. Abuse victims often start to leave and then change their minds when an excuse allows them to because, in their mind, it's more terrifying to leave and face the unknown than it is to stay and face the devil they know.

[ScrubMonkey]

What I got from the story where the wife was being abused and the paranoid husband led his whole family to believe his delusions was, at first the wife knew it was all lies, but with the isolation, hazing, abuse, threats and stress, she eventually became confused about reality, herself. There was also the fact he made their kids gang up against her. That made her question herself when they turned on her too. Of course they were part of the abuse, i.e., victims themselves.

[canaanite2]

But in the show it started with them having a difficult time in their marriage, but nothing too out of the ordinary, and then all of the sudden one night he sat her down and started leading her into the idea that her father molested her. Then the next thing you know, she's following his lead and letting him elaborate on the story. It seems like there had to be something else going on before and during this initial sit down when he started in on her. I don't know. Maybe an hour just wasn't enough time to lay out all the crazy shit that went down up to that point, or maybe his form of emotional abuse was so subtle in the beginning that it was hard to capture in a reenactment. I just get the feeling that there's something missing in the story. Now, when it got to the part where he had her children turn against her, that was incredibly brutal, and so much worse than any physical abuse could have been, worse even then the gun being put to her head. That would kill a mother inside. From that point on she was GONE.

Edited by canaanite2, Feb 15, 2013 @ 6:03 PM.

[urlittledogtoo]

I wasn't so surprised about her believing him. First of all, it was during a period of time when satanic cult sexual abuse was being alleged and people were being locked up for it and well meaning and some not so well meaning therapists were using a one hundred item checklist to determine if you were a victim of repressed memories of sexual abuse. You could convince someone who was persuadable to believe it at that time. Also, satanic cult abuse was specifically supposed to use conditioning so the 'victims' could not remember and would trigger psychological failsafes if they did start to remember their abuse in order to protect the cult. That was the crap the therapeutic community and their law enforcement shills were believing and peddling during that whole period. So the husband had plenty of material and framework to use against his wife. Second, he had her doing cocaine with him. That was clearly shown and stated in the episode. They'd do cocaine and he'd start in on trying to force her to remember what he said was true. Third, he was a very persuasive and strong personality and he married a woman who was more passive in her personality, probably on purpose. She was a stay at home mom which also put her in a more vulnerable position vis a vis him. So once he started going and had her doubting herself all he had to do was keep it up and turn up the screws and get the kids involved.

The whole set up reminded me of that old New York case where the attormey beat and emotionally abused his wife and kept her strung out on cocaine to the point that she was just a shell of a person and then they both abused their two young adopted children, the five year old girl died from beatings and that tipped off the authorities to what was going on in their apartment. It was the dad, though, that was doing a whole drug and psychology number on his wife who was just a mess under his abuse. That was a horrible case from the seventies I think it was. Joel Steinberg; the girl's name was Lisa.

As for her family, I don't think even if they wanted to they could have broken through since they were part of the paranoid scheme. It was the friend's subterfuge of pretending to believe that let her get through the defenses and position herself to offer a way out. The family could not have done that. From what other families where members were accused of satanic abuse or even regular sexual abuse via repressed memory recovery (discredited now thank goodness) most of the time they do react like this, refusing to deal with the accuser and cutting off ties. Remember, the husband and wife were suing her dad and making these allegations legally against him. The rest of the family circled the wagons around him instead of her, which is not that unusual. She was lucky she had a smart friend. Most people don't have someone who thinks that quickly and stays that loyal and determined to help.

Edited by urlittledogtoo, Feb 15, 2013 @ 8:16 PM.

[ScrubMonkey]

and then all of the sudden one night he sat her down and started leading her into the idea that her father molested her.

I'd have to watch it again to make triple dog sure but I remember her resisting that idea. For a while, ay time she questioned his 'insights' he would punch her in the face. I think that began breaking her down, demoralizing her. I did get he feeling there was way more than could be told in one hour, though. For instance, why did her father get a restraining order against her? The husband must have had her making threatening phone calls to her own father, or - what?

How sinister was that husband, though? How insidious and how just plain mean? He was so jealous that his wife was close with her own father (in a totally healthy way) that he sought to destroy them all from the mind outward? He never took responsibility for it even in the police interview. I think the police detective said the guy still hadn't? Interesting episode but very hard to watch, and I might have fuzzed out in a couple places too, it was a lot to take in.

I had forgotten about her friend. Thank heavens for that clever, quick and loyal friend! Without her that whole nuclear family could have ended up well, earning that name in more ways than one. I think it would've ended in a mass murder/suicide - or the husband might have run off afterward like John List.

Oh Joel Steinberg - what a creep. Poor little Lisa! I felt bad for Hedda too, I mean her nose was just flat. What makes those types of men do it? Monsters.

[BDArizona]

And although salvation itself isn't at issue in fundamentalist Christianity (not Mormonism), there are a lot of small and sometimes not so small sects out there who believe that authority goes from God to men to the women they are 'covering' and down to the children.

Well, that's the basis of all Christian doctrine. Why are women not allowed to be Catholic priests? Because men are "closer" to "god", and women aren't allowed to preach the word of said "god". It's not peculiar to the LDS church or fundamentalism. It's the underpinnings of Christian thought.

I'll knock any religion that subjugates women. I'm tired of it. This woman's freefall began when she confessed to having sex outside of marriage (an archaic "sin") and was promptly excommunicated. I doubt a man in the church would have been trained in a way that he would have been compelled to confess in the first place, even though men supposedly have to live by the same rules regarding their sex lives

Actually, I've known men who were excommunicated from the LDS church for extramarital sex. The doctor who delivered me and cared for me until I was in my late teens was one of them. And, like I said, the very basis of Christianity is a hatred of the female. There may be a lot of knee jerk anti-Mormonism, but it's neither better nor worse than other strains of the religion. One only needs to pull out the bible to see that. Of course, a show like this isn't going to make that point. It's going to play up on the freak factor, instead of asking hard questions about misogyny in religion.

[ScrubMonkey]

Why are women not allowed to be Catholic priests? Because men are "closer" to "god", and women aren't allowed to preach the word of said "god".

Actually that isn't why...but it would take months of RCIA to explain it. I didn't get religious misogyny from that episode personally but she had a very dependent people pleasing personality and was highly gullible.

[Neeney]

After watching this series I guess brainwashing is easier than I thought, because it seems to happen more frequently than I'd expect.

The last show as just sad. And very creepy.

[ScrubMonkey]

Caught the episode about Scientology. I think it was a rerun.

Just seems like this show's been going for religion lately; not sure what to make of that but it does really offer up a cautionary tale of don't ever give all your power to another human being for any reason. Making a heavily pregnant woman live in a parking garage? What the hell.

[Neeney]

The Scientology episode was the first episode. It was good, but not all of them have been about religions.

Scientology seems all about absolute control, so they probably didn't/don't have any problem about making a heavily pregnant woman live on the streets, if they can control her.

[canaanite2]

Scientology isn't a religion on par with Mormonism. Scientology is only allowed to call itself an official religion because of the relentless, very dirty fight to be recognized as such by the IRS and given tax-exempt status. They are really just a cult pretending to be a religion.

Edited by canaanite2, Mar 1, 2013 @ 3:35 PM.