156 replies to this topic

[TWoP Lockley]

Brody's juggling of alliances appear to be leading him to a major meltdown, so Carrie, against Quinn's orders, stages a dicey intervention. Meanwhile, a conflicted Dana seeks comfort from an unlikely source.

Talk about this week's episode here but remember to take in-depth discussion about anything else to the appropriate character/topic threads.

[Midge]

how in the world could Abu Nazir get into the country?! Carrie needs to be working TSA not CIA.

I'm still loving Dana, I'm beginning to wonder if Brody is finally brought down by his family, not the government or the terroists cells.

Having everyone listening in was all kinds of squicky but it does make it seem that Carrie is a little more in control of that part of the relationship then I thought as she had to know the listening in/filming was going to happen.

Edited by Midge, Nov 18, 2012 @ 10:56 PM.

[Timid Wild One]

how in the world could Abu Nazir get into the country?!

My guess? Blame Canada.


Wow. What an episode. Excuse me while I pick my heart up out of my feet.

Also: In the awkward Olympics, Saul listening to Carrie/Brody > Jesse Pinkman eating dinner @ the White residence

[aprilgirl]

Nazir is supposed to be like a Bin Laden-level terrorist, yes? And he's just waltzing around the U.S.? And he's wasting time keeping Brody alive when he has many other minions to do his bidding? Hmm. I love this show, and I will continue to watch, but it is starting to slip a bit for me.

[Hallelujah]

WOW. My blood pressure levels will certainly thank me when this season is over. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time.
Loved this episode. I think it’s my favorite so far this season.

This Carrie/Brody stuff just gets messier with each episode. I found Carrie’s admission that if Brody really became a hero none of their past would matter to be especially heartbreaking. It’s obvious now she’s in love with him, and I feel more strongly after tonight that he may be too.

My heart also broke for Saul when he had to listen in on Carrie and Brody that night. And then when she came in the next morning telling him that she wasn’t his daughter. In many ways he probably feels Carrie is all he has left.

So Abu Nazir definitely knows that Brody is working for the CIA, right? I assume that’s why Roya removed the chip from his phone. I guess now he tries to turn him back, but then we get into a neverending loop because the CIA knows he’s been abducted, so he’s out of play for the CIA now permanently.

I really liked the Dana/Mike story. I think Dana’s relationship with Jess is one of the most realistically portrayed on this show. And being a bit over five years removed from that teenager dynamic, I think they really captured that push/pull aspect.

Having everyone listening in was all kinds of squicky but it does make it seem that Carrie is a little more in control of that part of the relationship then I thought as she had to know the listening in/filming was going to happen.

I was wondering about this, too. Saul said she went to a safe harbor where only she could find him. So she anticipated that they would be waiting in the wings, but not necessarily listening in?

how in the world could Abu Nazir get into the country?!

Private aircraft? I'm not sure how that works going across borders, though. He also was clean-shaven, which did alter his appearance more and made him look much more Western than he usually does.

[Nightmare Logic]

I was worried that Brody was going to die a couple times during the episode...then again I am pretty sure he will die by the end of the season so hey. I honestly said out loud once "They are going to kill Brody/" I'm glad I was wrong. I actually hope brody sticks around at least until the end of the season I like the Brody/Carrie train wreck.

Not sure how the Dana plot will fit with the main plot if at all, but it is interesting to compare how Dana and Brody handle stress.

Also interesting how Carrie doesn't follow orders but her instincts seem to be kinda right and yet she does dumbass things like frak Brody when she is pretty sure everyone is listening in. Honestly I'm not sure I wouldn't fire her myself if I was the CIA, yes she is brilliant,and the show does good work protraying that brilliance) but it does and equally good job at showing how unstable and unrealiable she is. Good work show.

[meandthemoon]

The scene with Saul, Quinn, and the guys listening to the sex was unintentionally hilarious.

I really loved Estes and Quinn in this episode, especially when they were doing their job and questioning Carrie's attachment to Brody. Seriously, if there weren't people in the CIA who occasionally said how stupid Carrie is acting, then I would have quit watching a long time ago. As long as there are people who acknowledge it, then I'm cool.

I actually liked Mike this episode, which was a first. But I also disliked Dana for the first time, since the storyline just seems to be going nowhere.

[Brian C]

Yeah, Dana was a bit too slow on the uptake this episode. "A...deal?!?"

[Milburn Stone]

Not sure how the Dana plot will fit with the main plot if at all, but it is interesting to compare how Dana and Brody handle stress.

Both Dana and her father want to come clean, and find themselves stymied by a world in which no one else's interests are served by this.

[Brian C]

A very 24-esque ending. Terrorists could come and go as they pleased on that show.

[Purejinks]

I loved this episode. To be honest if Dana boredrama wasn't in play I'd never get a chance to catch my breath.... And jessica would have nothing to do but attend to Chris like a toddler and call Brody all day/night. So I guess it serves it's purpose.

[Hallelujah]

Also interesting how Carrie doesn't follow orders but her instincts seem to be kinda right and yet she does dumbass things like frak Brody when she is pretty sure everyone is listening in. Honestly I'm not sure I wouldn't fire her myself if I was the CIA, yes she is brilliant,and the show does good work portraying that brilliance) but it does and equally good job at showing how unstable and unrealiable she is.

Well Carrie is literally the only person Brody trusts. Without Carrie, the CIA really has nothing. Carrie is only thing Brody can cling to at this moment (other than maybe Abu Nazir, based on next episode's previews). It speaks to their relationship and both of their sanities that they still can't let go of this messy, messy relationship. Carrie is holding on to a hope that they could actually make it through this ordeal intact, and this hope is becoming more and more delusional with each passing week. But I love it. There is a real savior complex going on beneath the surface there.

Both Dana and her father want to come clean, and find themselves stymied by a world in which no one else's interests are served by this.

I love this interpretation.

Dana was a bit too slow on the uptake this episode. "A...deal?!?"

Yep, this whole story really just highlights how, despite the outward appearance she puts on, Dana is very naive about the way the world works and much more innocent than she seems. Why did she go see the daughter?! You could see the world closing in on her that whole time. I really felt bad for her. I bet she's wishing she had stayed with Xander after all.

I was worried that Brody was going to die a couple times during the episode..

Ugh, me too! Roya really scares me.

[Gironbachs]

That was an extraordinarily implausible 24-sy moment, Abu Nazir showing up. The mythology of this show had him on par with Osama Bin Laden, and he just rolls into town like he's just back from a Wizards game, ostenibly to oversee the detonation of a large, non-nuclear explosive? Did he fly First Class on EgyptAir?

That was a fancy Helicopter - you can only hear it when it's less than 40 yards away.

Seriously, have they finished with Dana's subplot? Hell, I'd confess to the hit and run if I thought it would make the whole thing go away and then she could go back to smoking bowls with Xander in the Park.

[Pallas429]

Agreed, Milburn, and I find Dana's coming of age around this issue to be interesting, even in the storyline itself is a bowser. There will be no total amnesty for the Brody family, no matter how this shakes out.

So Abu Nazir definitely knows that Brody is working for the CIA, right? I assume that’s why Roya removed the chip from his phone. I guess now he tries to turn him back, but then we get into a neverending loop because the CIA knows he’s been abducted, so he’s out of play for the CIA now permanently.

I doubt Nazir or Roya are certain; Roya was taking precautions. For all she knows, Carrie could have surreptitiously planted a tracer in Brody's phone, without his knowledge. As for Nazir, the last time Brody tried to jump ship Nazir again played hurt/comfort on him, with "comfort" via satellite and "hurt" via brass knuckles. This time Nazir is going to inspect his asset in the flesh. Nazir knows Brody very well. Better than Carrie? Perhaps not. Better than Brody? Definitely. At least, to date.

Nazir is supposed to be like a Bin Laden-level terrorist, yes? And he's just waltzing around the U.S.? And he's wasting time keeping Brody alive when he has many other minions to do his bidding?

Minions, yes, but none with Brody's access, and none with Brody's story. Terrorism aims to create psychological aftershocks in the population at large, by targeting representative victims: ordinary people going about their business. Nazir is raising the stakes by using an actual member of the U.S. House of Representatives as the agent. A Marine now under consideration as the other half of a frontrunning, major party Presidential ticket. He may have in mind blowing up the convention on the night Walden accepts the nomination.

As for the waltzing around part..shipboard, outside the 12-mile-limit? Still pretty ridic, but there you go.

[OptimisticCynic]

Did Quinn make a Wedding Crashers reference when he said "stage five getting boned?" I'm going to take that as a yes even if it's not. And was it just me or was there a hint of jealousy in his eyes when he was listening to them?

A little unbelievable that they would only have one audio tracker on Brody - his cell - and not another one hidden in his car. It would have made more sense that once they got out of the car, then Roya took out the chip in the cell phone and that's why they couldn't hear anything.

By season's end I want them to kill Roya, I can't stand that smug face of hers. The actress is obviously doing a good job though.

Edited by OptimisticCynic, Nov 19, 2012 @ 1:08 AM.

[Joimiaroxeu]

He may have in mind blowing up the convention on the night Walden accepts the nomination.

That would be hitting the Manchurian Candidate reference pretty hard.

To be honest if Dana boredrama wasn't in play I'd never get a chance to catch my breath.... And jessica would have nothing to do but attend to Chris like a toddler and call Brody all day/night. So I guess it serves it's purpose.

I don't know who I want to punch in the face more, Dana or Jess. They're both so effing earnest and have no idea how much destruction it could cause if they were left to their own devices. As it is, Jess' ex-boyfriend now knows way too much about a potential political scandal which could put both him and Jess' family in harm if they don't shut up about it. I'm having a hard time understanding what Brody ever saw in Jess besides her looks. I guess she was the perfect military wife for him but it just seems like he's worlds beyond her now. And I don't know why they indulge Dana so much. The girl is a drug addiction or teen pregnancy waiting to happen.

Edited by Joimiaroxeu, Nov 19, 2012 @ 9:46 AM.

[dwmarch]

And was it just me or was there a hint of jealousy in his eyes when he was listening to them?

I got more than a hint. To me, Quinn was practically screaming "I'm supposed to be the one making her moan like that!"

The Abu Nazir twist didn't work for me. With his beard shaved off I thought he was Bassel reincarnated which would have been a real 24 twist. I'm glad they didn't go that route however. As for how Nazir got in? He obviously slipped in through a plot hole.

[bcharmer]

When that car drove up, and a man got out, I said to myself, "Do NOT tell me that's going to be Nazir." Then, sure enough. Yeah, he slipped in through a plot hole, alright (good one, dwmarch).

[ferrix]

As for how Nazir got in? He obviously slipped in through a plot hole.

Good one. But you know, according to wikipedia, "There are an estimated half million illegal entries into the United States each year" ... so clearly it is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Edited by ferrix, Nov 19, 2012 @ 1:42 AM.

[toogoodtobetrue]

The car did not even have tinted windows.

[shapeshifter]

Nazir is supposed to be like a Bin Laden-level terrorist, yes? And he's just waltzing around the U.S.? And he's wasting time keeping Brody alive when he has many other minions to do his bidding?

Actually, this part makes sense to me given their backstory together. Nazir spent years grooming Brody. I even still wonder if Nazir deliberately put Isa in harm's way to turn Brody. Brody's a big investment. What seemed implausible to me was that Nazir was seemingly going to off Brody and Basel in that earlier episode.

[btp]

I kind of knew Nazir would appear at the end, and I'm of two minds about that. Part of me sees that as a negative, because the one thing this show has always been able to do is to take unexpected left turns at critical moments and thus defy conventions of the genre. And that part of me, the disappointed part, thinks of how cool it would be if the shadowy figure emerging from the car had turned out to be... I dunno, Walden. Or Mike. Or Tom Walker. Not only would it have been good and twisty, it also would have obviated the whole "how the hell did Abu Fucking Nazir get into the country?" thing.

On the other hand, Nazir appearing at the end does do one positive thing -- it sort of reconfirms for us, in no uncertain terms, that Brody really is Nazir's #1 most important asset in the States, so important that he's willing to risk his life and pretty much his entire cause in order to have this meeting. I agree that it's pretty damned improbable, but then again, I am willing to concede that someone as powerful as Nazir would have an array of effective disguises at his disposal, not to mention plenty of means of acquiring falsified IDs. That he could mobilize all that in, what, less than 24 hours? -- seems a little far-fetched, but I do think at some point we have to realize that this is a work of fiction and meet the writers halfway on this kind of stuff. Is it far-fetched that Nazir could get into the country that quickly for a meeting with "Nicholas?" Certainly. Is it completely out of the realm of possibility, so much so that it ruins the story for me? Meh. Probably not yet. I would prefer it if they limited the number of these, though.

I kind of figure if they can keep the number of highly improbable things to fewer than 3 or 4 a season, that, for this genre, would be pretty acceptable. Maybe even groundbreaking.

With regard to Dana -- I don't post here all that often, and when I do I feel like I always find myself defending the Dana character, and here I am again being the contrarian on this. But for whatever reason, I continue to find her character compelling and interesting and extraordinarily realistic in the way she is rendered, both by the writers and by Morgan Saylor. As it happens, for a variety of reasons, I spend a fair amount of time in the company of actual teenagers in my real life, and I continue to find Dana's story to be near pitch perfect. Unlike most of the viewers, I have enjoyed the hit-and-run storyline, because I always knew it would fit into the story in an important way. And I think it has done just that.

First of all, people have questioned Dana's idealism and its attendant naivete, but in my experience, this is often how real teenagers are. Yeah, they put on a good show of being jaded and worldly and not trusting anyone, but most of them really have a pretty clear ideas of what's right and wrong, and, in the end, pretty strong moral compasses. I actually think a good part of what causes teens to enter what I like to call the "eye roll phase" of their lives is that that age is the point where they suddenly realize that their parents are not perfect, that they are in fact hypocrites much of the time. Teens become disappointed with their parents, and with adults in general, when they begin to realize for the first time that the real world does not actually run on the rules they were told it ran on. So they rebel, act out, and make faces. Ultimately, they make peace with this, though, and still, for the most part, enter young adulthood pretty idealistic, believing that they can do better than their parents did when it comes to always doing the right thing.

Interesting, for me, is the fact that I think Dana is very much her father's daughter in this respect. Think about it: What is it that turned Nicholas Brody from perfect Marine to almost successful suicide bombing terrorist? It was the same disappointment, the same kind of shattering of ideals, that Dana is now experiencing. Brody was "turned" by Nazir showing him (perhaps with partially trumped up evidence -- we don't really know) that the good guys are maybe not as good as he thought. In his suicide video, Brody explains that the US kills innocent women and children, and that he engaged in this act not out of revenge for the death of one boy, but to show the world how things really are. And, in his twisted mind, to bring Walden to justice.

Well, now Dana, who believed her father to be a misunderstood hero, and who believed that when you are responsible for the death or injury of another person, you damned well own up to it and make it right if you can ... she is discovering, in this and the previous episode, that the real world is a mean and crooked place. She is watching her ideals crash and burn around her, just as her father did the day of the drone strike. And I think one of the interesting questions this show is asking is, will Dana go as far off the rails in response to this kind of stress as Nick Brody did? And -- by the way -- it is not insignificant, I think, that Brody still shares this idealism, still is with Dana when it comes to doing the right thing with regard to the hit and run, and it is his second hard dose of reality shattering his ideals that broke him down yet again. And, by the way, the villains in all of this -- the people getting between Nick Brody and What's Right -- once again turn out to be the Walden family. Nice parallel, no?

I mean, in the end, this whole show is about people's idealistic views of things bumping up against cold reality -- and usually losing. How each of the characters deals with this is very interesting to me, and I am still waiting to see where the Dana storyline goes.

Edited by btp, Nov 19, 2012 @ 7:18 AM.

[JJforLife47]

When will these people ever learn. CARRIE IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

[purplebubbles]

When will these people ever learn. CARRIE IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

RIGHT?!

And with regards to her stubbornness this episode, I'm pretty sure she still feels resentful over being dismissed and ignored over Brody last year, after having been right all along. She probably doesn't think too highly of her superiors at this point.

Carrie and Brody is undoubtedly messed up, but I find that entire relationship incredibly compelling and multi-faceted. With regards to where Carrie's feelings truly lie, I think that she's 45% truly in love with him, but the other 55% of her that's intent on getting this mission done and stopping Abu Nazir over powers it - little things that her hiding that gun in the cabin during "The Weekend", and bugging the motel room, in my opinion prove where Carrie's heart really lies. Speaking of, Saul's and Quinn's reactions to overhearing the sex were priceless. I was dying from laughter/second hand embarrassment/horror. What. A. Show.

ETA: Just went back and it turns out that the CIA followed and tracked her, not she herself. Oops! I stand corrected. I still do have faith in Carrie's intentions, though.

I wish I could feel more kindly or sympathetic towards Dana, Jess and Mike, but their characters seem like extra, dull blanks of space within the entire context of the show. As I said before in another thread, I usually find the 'wife' characters very sympathetic, but Jess isn't doing it for me and Mike is so boring. By all means, I think that Jess deserves some peace of mind and so do her children, but god, it's all such a drag to watch.

Abu Nazir appearing at the end of this episode proved to me that this show is more of a highly sophisticated Dexter/dramatic thriller rather than a drama on par with Breaking Bad or something. But I don't care? Kind of? This entire episode had me on the edge of my seat - much like Dexter used to during its earlier seasons - and it's still such an adrenaline rush.

Edited by purplebubbles, Nov 19, 2012 @ 8:06 AM.

[Mama No Life]

I found it fascinating to watch Brody just meltdown last night, and very telling that the straw that almost broke his back was his family, not his doubled-agentness (new word). It's another side of the terrorist that reminds us that no one is every totally evil or good. Carrie was willing to do whatever it took to keep Brody in play, but she certainly wasn't upset over having to sex him up. Saul's horrified reaction to having to listen to it was priceless. On a shallow note, DL swallows CD's entire mouth when they kiss.

I was not sold on the Nazir arrival at the end, but the show has earned the right for a little leeway from me for now, so I'll reserve judgement. One thing about this show...it moves. Nothing gets dragged out...you miss one week, you're screwed.

[Divergent]

I still love the show and find the performances compelling, but while last year's show had the feeling of "this could happen" to it, I'm finding season two to be falling into the "oh come on" category. How does the world's biggest terrorist just waltz into the country? How does a high-profile congressman just disappear for long stretches of time and nobody seems to notice? And while the Carrie/Brody hookups felt real last year, this year they seem awfully contrived.

I guess I'm falling into the camp that feels Brody should've been died at the end of last season. They obviously brought him back because of DL's great acting and chemistry with CD and the mentality of "why ruin a good thing," but the show really should be about Carrie and Saul and the protection of the "homeland" from terrorists. Let's say Brody foils this big terrorist plot. Where does he go from there? Does anyone really believe that the CIA would allow a known terrorist (Brody) to rise to the level of Vice President, a heartbeat away from POTUS? Come on show, right the ship.

[Lilac4381]

Still digesting the episode. On a purely shallow note, has DL ever looked as handsome and smoking as he did in that motel room last night?

[mdem]

WOW. My blood pressure levels will certainly thank me when this season is over. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time.
Loved this episode. I think it’s my favorite so far this season.

I just loved it too. I'm afraid the end of the season is going to mean a painful wait until season 3!!!

how in the world could Abu Nazir get into the country?!

That's a bit odd, but not impossible. So I will do with it.

My heart also broke for Saul when he had to listen in on Carrie and Brody that night. And then when she came in the next morning telling him that she wasn’t his daughter. In many ways he probably feels Carrie is all he has left.

Somehow Carrie telling Saul he's not his father really looks like a daughter comment. Of course, a "really" daughter would phrase it differently, but that's the same. This relationship is such an important one.

So Abu Nazir definitely knows that Brody is working for the CIA, right? I assume that’s why Roya removed the chip from his phone. I guess now he tries to turn him back, but then we get into a neverending loop because the CIA knows he’s been abducted, so he’s out of play for the CIA now permanently.

You think Nazir knows: I guess they are wondering. They have all the reason for that, and Nazir wants to make sure he's with them. Obviously his role is a main one otherwise that's not worth the trouble.

I doubt Nazir or Roya are certain; Roya was taking precautions.

I agree here.

Nazir knows Brody very well. Better than Carrie? Perhaps not. Better than Brody? Definitely. At least, to date.

I don't know who knows Brody best, but for sure Carrie has true feelings for Brody while Nazir doesn't have. Is Brody able to see that? I would tend to think so, but in the mean time his life is such a mess, I'm not sure what he's able to do or not.

I was wondering about this, too. Saul said she went to a safe harbor where only she could find him. So she anticipated that they would be waiting in the wings, but not necessarily listening in?

She wanted Saul to know where she was, not sure she thought they would find her that early, well not sure she thought she would hear that B & C were f**g. Even if Carrie is in control, she does love Brody. At the end, she was so seriously afraid that he might die.

Both Dana and her father want to come clean, and find themselves stymied by a world in which no one else's interests are served by this.

Yep, this whole story really just highlights how, despite the outward appearance she puts on, Dana is very naive about the way the world works and much more innocent than she seems. Why did she go see the daughter?!

Not sure either about the Dana SL: just a parallel, or also a way to show how Brody's life is a mess ... It was great to see Dana/Mike (quite unexpected), but if she can even relate more to the main SL it would be better.

[btp]

Abu Nazir appearing at the end of this episode proved to me that this show is more of a highly sophisticated Dexter/dramatic thriller rather than a drama on par with Breaking Bad or something. But I don't care? Kind of? This entire episode had me on the edge of my seat - much like Dexter used to during its earlier seasons - and it's still such an adrenaline rush.

For what it's worth, the writer of this episode, Chip Johannessen, served as producer and show runner of Dexter's fifth season. Not that this sort of cross-pollination isn't pretty common in Hollywood anyway, but if there's any similarity in the shows' respective ethos, that could be part of the reason.

[mdem]

2 posts as I couldn't post all in one.

By season's end I want them to kill Roya, I can't stand that smug face of hers. The actress is obviously doing a good job though.

LOL yes. The actress is really good, and I agree I want Roya to go away ;)

I got more than a hint. To me, Quinn was practically screaming "I'm supposed to be the one making her moan like that!"

Don't know if it's just me (or a few us), but I always get the feeling that they want to show us that Quinn wouldn't say no to Carrie..

She is watching her ideals crash and burn around her, just as her father did the day of the drone strike. And I think one of the interesting questions this show is asking is, will Dana go as far off the rails in response to this kind of stress as Nick Brody did. And -- by the way -- it is not insignificant, I think, that Brody still shares this idealism, still is with Dana when it comes to doing the right thing with regard to the hit and run, and it is his second hard dose of reality shattering his ideals that broke him down yet again.
Haven't quote btp entirely, but quite an interesting analysis of the Dana SL.

I mean, in the end, this whole show is about people's idealistic views of things bumping up against cold reality -- and usually losing. How each of the characters deals with this is very interesting to me,

Yes, you're right.