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Season Four: Your NYC Plot Is in My Ohio Plot


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#541

vb68

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Posted May 18, 2013 @ 2:21 PM

 Sorry I can't blame Kurt and Rachel maybe being concerned that a friend of theirs is basically trespassing and "harassing" a student at their school.  :)

 

There really didn't seem to be any serious consequences, though.  She was still allowed in the extension classes later on.  I just took it as Santana trying to relate to NYADA people on their level.  :)  I still agree though on the larger point that even Santana needed an outlet once the choir room was no longer available. 

 



#542

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Posted May 18, 2013 @ 6:38 PM

I'm totally Mrs. Kravitzing here, but I'm so damn curious to find out what, exactly, TPTB were trying to accomplish this year.  If they wanted to set up a Degrassiesqe Glee Factory where new students were continuously introduced into the narrative, why was virtually every single new character a re-hash of a character that already existed?  What was the point?

 

Were TPTB just pissed at Fox for not greenlighting their separate NY-only series and set about making the dreckiest dreck of a series ever?  Did TPTB not actually realize that all of the new characters were retreads?  Do they think Glee is good?  Were TPTB punishing Chis Colfer, Lea Michele and Cory Monteith for GraduationGate?  Were the show runners prohibited from talking to the writers and the editors and the music people?  Were they all trying to ruin each other?

 

I want the True Hollywood Story!

 

I'm not one who ever thought the series was good.  I watched the first episode and thought Rachel was insufferable, Shue was an idiot, and Finn too stupid to live so I checked out.  I only checked back in because a friend of mine, along with her kids, really loved it and wanted me to give it another chance.  I did and became enamored of Kurt.  I've only ever watched to see what Chris Colfer will do with a scene or a song, and even though I love him to death, I never thought the show was particularly well written or well plotted.  In fact, I pretty much thought RIB were passively aggressively trying to force their vision of the show over the other two, thereby making a huge mess of the entire process.

 

But this season was just so so so spectacularly bad.  I feel like I could walk in to any middle school in the USA, point randomly at 20 students and 14 of them could plot a better television season than Season 4 of Glee. 

 

I just want to know why it's so bad!  And if they understand that it's so bad!  And if they laugh at the truckful of money Fox pays them for something so awful!  Is this Office Space for TV?  How bad would it have to get for Fox to pull the plug?  Or will they just keep giving Ryan Murphy more and more and more spaces on their schedule?


Edited by Myrna123, May 18, 2013 @ 6:41 PM.


#543

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Posted May 18, 2013 @ 10:57 PM

No True Hollywood Story would ever be satisfying enough. I want the tell all book in three volumes. Come on, Jenna, I am counting on you! 

 

There really didn't seem to be any serious consequences, though.  She was still allowed in the extension classes later on.

 

I don't mind Rachel and Kurt being upset but crazy lesbians causing drama at a New York arts school is probably just like a Tuesday for them. I love that that is a thing she does though. Mercedes, Sebastian, Sam and Brody all got musical confrontations.

But yes to your point they needed more or different staging/reasons for performances.  The whole gang getting together once again sing a song end of the episode just took away any meaning to it by the 3rd or 4th time this season.   That Finn/Marley one was probably the last end song to be relevant.

 

I think, almost without exception, my favorite songs of the season have had nothing to do with formal performances. (I liked Closer I guess.)

 

It is a musical. Fantasy is inherent in the genre. An audience goes with it or they don't. I don't think they need what has become a pointless, unoriginal staging device.

 

As for the name being "Glee" I think Glee club has strongly influenced every single one of the kids and that will always be with them. It doesn't have to be literal.


Edited by Cherith, May 19, 2013 @ 10:08 AM.


#544

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Posted May 19, 2013 @ 2:14 AM

Wait don't they all confront people with song?   Santana is not the only one to ever do that. 



#545

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Posted May 19, 2013 @ 3:19 AM

Wait don't they all confront people with song?   Santana is not the only one to ever do that.

 

Yes and no.  Kurt, Rachel, and Mercedes have all had "diva-offs," but those were always to determine the best singer, not settle extraneous arguments.  There've been a few internal monologue, fantasy songs when one character is mad at another, but very few real world performances.  Of the actual performances used to settle some kind of dispute that was not over singing talent, Santana's had a part in nearly all of them.  Rachel had "Gives You Hell" all to herself, but that's about it.



#546

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Posted May 19, 2013 @ 4:35 AM

Finn vs Schue in Fued is maybe the only other one I can think of.  Of course, it barely counts because it was probably the least threatening confrontation in history.  Will initially talks up Biggie v 2pac, and I was set for an epic smackdown duel despite Will and Finn , but they ended up doing Backstreet Boys v Nsync???  And to top it off, the confrontation was all in their heads and they ended up hugging it out.  Just lol....

 

I suppose there was also Ryder v Unique and Blaine v Sylvester in Feud as well, but certainly Santana does seem to like to diss via song and has been doing it since season 1.  It's basically her "Come at me bro" card lol.



#547

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Posted May 19, 2013 @ 10:33 AM

I suppose there was also Ryder v Unique and Blaine v Sylvester in Feud as well, but certainly Santana does seem to like to diss via song and has been doing it since season 1.  It's basically her "Come at me bro" card lol.

 

And in Feud that was an explicit white board assignment. Blaine requested that Will and Finn do that and then it was the theme for the club. Since, at McKinley winning School Council President grants you the power to be a benevolent dictator they really didn't have the choice. It wasn't just random. Like various mash-offs were assignments. Will assigned the Defying Gravity off etc.

 

It's basically her "Come at me bro" card lol.

 

There are so many levels to her absurdity that it is, itself, absurd.


Edited by Cherith, May 19, 2013 @ 10:37 AM.


#548

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Posted May 19, 2013 @ 12:51 PM

I get what you mean with your Santana examples but I was thinking a broader context of confront as to confront someone to face or deal with  a difficult situation not necessarily a angry confrontation.

 

I guess for me when they even bring up a new issue  it could be considered confronting them.  Like Blaine singing it's not right but its ok when Kurt is texting that guy for example


Edited by rachmo, May 19, 2013 @ 12:57 PM.


#549

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Posted May 19, 2013 @ 1:33 PM

I guess for me when they even bring up a new issue  it could be considered confronting them.  Like Blaine singing it's not right but its ok when Kurt is texting that guy for example

That definitely counts but he fit it into his assignment for Glee he didn't just do it in a coffee shop or show up at Chandler's record store. It was a passive aggressive way to not discuss the issue and instead turn his glee homework to do the trick. Most of the characters use music to express emotions but they are also somehow grounded in some sort of reality. So they don't just show up somewhere and expect to have a sing off or confront someone through song with absolutely no pretext. Santana's definition of sane behavior is questionable at best.


Edited by Cherith, May 19, 2013 @ 1:37 PM.


#550

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Posted May 19, 2013 @ 1:43 PM

Santana's definition of sane behavior is questionable at best.

And God love her for it.



#551

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Posted May 19, 2013 @ 3:18 PM

Indeed.  Actual humour: Hoorah!

 

In general, I most enjoy those crazy kind of performances where a person is actually, literally singing but shouldn't be.  At then other end of the spectrum are the pseudo-dream sequences.  The Scientist, Rachel & Brody's Creep, and the NYC Crew's At the Ballet were prime examples.  Sure, the vocals were nice, but they were vaguely disconerting to watch and they just lay there. Suddenly one was being assaulted by metaphor!  Ryan Murphy put those into several of his episodes.  I wouldn't have minded a little more creativity and fun on his part.


Edited by DEM, May 19, 2013 @ 4:00 PM.


#552

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Posted May 19, 2013 @ 5:01 PM

I liked At the Ballet and The Scientist for what they were, although I agree that the tone was off and could just take you right out of an episode. But, in the case of Lights Out I was more than happy to be taken out of that episode. Like seven more kids would have confessed to being molested in the time At the Ballet took. But I wouldn't want there to be a ton of them every season.

 

Fun is absolutely 100% what was missing for me this season (not Fun, the band, they were present). They tried to force it but a bunch of kids running around a stage isn't "fun". That is why Santana was such a breath of fresh air every single time she was on for me because she can be hilarious even when she is serious. I remember in Seaon 2 thinking that this whole serious coming out arc (when I thought, like an idiot, that the show might take it seriously) would make Santana lose her edge and she wouldn't be funny anymore. But she has never been funnier. She has only diversified her crazy portfolio since then. For me, Santana works better as a comic character than Sue because there are just so many ways she is hilariously absurd and OTT. Being a bitch is just scratching the surface. And I think that was pretty visable in her limited screen time this season.



#553

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Posted May 19, 2013 @ 7:50 PM

Let's have a kiki turkey lurkey was fun.    Mama Mia would have been more fun IMO without the ND butting in.   Not sure why there weren't some other fun songs in the loft. 



#554

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Posted May 19, 2013 @ 9:03 PM

  Not sure why there weren't some other fun songs in the loft.

 

I think it was primarily because too much singing (and fun in general) in the loft would just twist that dagger in even deeper at how bad the McKinley side was with all their group songs that they were trying so hard to sell.  

 



#555

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Posted May 20, 2013 @ 9:18 AM

Yeah, basically for the NY/McKinley split to be a fair fight, NY had to be blindfolded with both hands tied behind its back and one foot in a bear trap.



#556

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Posted May 20, 2013 @ 12:19 PM

Even with so little screen time I still think NY came out ahead, the characters there are still riveting and must see, unfortunately for Mckinley the Noobs are still question marks as personalities so NY pretty much survived even the major neglect. Santana, Rachel and Kurt exchanging banter is something you can't put a price on with such good actors.

Edited by caracasd1914, May 20, 2013 @ 12:19 PM.


#557

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Posted May 20, 2013 @ 12:26 PM

 

Yeah, basically for the NY/McKinley split to be a fair fight, NY had to be blindfolded with both hands tied behind its back and one foot in a bear trap.


 

 

Yet, it still came across like George Forman fighting Steve Urkel.

 

 

Santana, Rachel and Kurt exchanging banter is something you can't put a price on with such good actors.
 

 

 

I would be fine with them only getting five minutes of screen time an episode next season if they make sure to have an intervention each and every one.


Edited by Cherith, May 20, 2013 @ 12:28 PM.


#558

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Posted May 21, 2013 @ 10:59 AM

I don't know, I found the season killed all the characters. The only character I managed to have a chuckle here and there with was Santana. So I guess based on that NY wins but honestly, I found that I was completely and utterly indifferent to Rachel by season end, I was happy for Kurt that Burt was okay but other than that, whatever.

 

And McKinley's not even worth mentioning. As someone brilliantly stated, this season might go down as a study in how to completely and utterly fuck up and destroy your show. There is not one thing I can think of that makes me look forward to S5 of this show. 


Edited by dancingonmyown, May 21, 2013 @ 3:26 PM.


#559

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Posted May 22, 2013 @ 4:13 AM

From the acting thread:

 

 

Good point on the lack of a male lead.  Kind of ironic on a show that feels very male-dominated to me.

 

 

 

With the exception of Marley, I think the McKinley side has been really male dominated this season, and even when it was a Marley story, a lot of the time it was about which guy to choose and which guy would save her from her eating disorder. McKinley just felt like a constant rotation of Jake, Sam, Blaine and Ryder stories, throw in a bit of Kitty being a horrible bitch, Marley and her two boy toys she can't decide between, Brittany's romance with Sam, and Tina's non stop crush on Blaine, and that was the season for me. 

 

I think the NYC side is more even, and possibly skewing to the female side because Rachel and Kate Hudson took up quite a lot of time, and then Santana arrived too. The two guys who took up significant time were Kurt and Brody, but even then, Brody was used for Rachel's stories. 

 

My post isn't a comment on which gender is better, I don't really care, as long as I find the characters engaging. The McKinley side could've entertained me even with the guys dominating the stories, but if only the guys were well written. They weren't, so I snoozed. And the girls on that side were also poorly written, so I snoozed even more. 

 

That's not the say the NYC side was spectacularly written, I don't think it was, there was a lot of squandered potential, but at least I enjoyed Rachel and Kurt as roommates and adding Santana into the mix to wreak some havoc was even better. 



#560

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Posted May 22, 2013 @ 9:21 AM

I think McKinley was a very conscious attempt by the writers to be more male dominated after three seasons of having it be a female dominated show, intentionally or not. Which, in theory, I think makes a lot of sense. Shake it up. I think it was a failure since most failed to leave much of an impression, the break out star was Kitty, and they had to pull out stunts rather than just let the kids naturally hold up the story.


Edited by Cherith, May 22, 2013 @ 9:24 AM.


#561

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Posted May 22, 2013 @ 9:39 AM

From the acting thread:

 

But some of it is they are just plain written to be much funnier or smarter or more talented. Puck and Santana may both be lost but Puck is not going to be given an intervention about his talent by two people who consider themselves to be immense talents.

 

Yeah, but that's not because he's a dude, it's because he's Puck, and he apparently has no talent. They'd do it for Finn. Or Blaine.


Edited by SNeaker, May 22, 2013 @ 9:40 AM.


#562

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Posted May 22, 2013 @ 9:44 AM

Puck did get an intervention, a multiple episode one, in season 3.

 

As for being male/female dominated, I think we're using different operational definitions of the word "dominant."  While subjectively I would say that Lea and Naya are the most talented actors on the show, I would never argue that females have or do dominate on Glee.  Even when they're given a storyline it's filtered through a male POV.  Santana's coming out being the most glaring but certainly not a rare example.  I somewhat jokingly said in the acting thread that Game of Thrones is probably the only show I watch that's more male dominated, but shit, even that show has strong female characters who are allowed to experience their shit themselves.  We don't get Dany's experiences filtered through the men around her.  

 

Perhaps the worst example this season in my opinion was Rachel's "pregnancy" "plot."  What a bunch of smoke and mirrors.  And although I hated the very thought of that storyline, it's a pretty major thing to go through [I imagine, for people who can get pregnant from the kind of sex they have.  Suckers!]  Compare that to the time, care and attention that Ryder's gripping catfish storyline got.  Nothing the girls experience is taken seriously on this show.  What does it take?  Getting hit by a truck?  LOL, no.  That won't work either.


Edited by brave little toaster, May 22, 2013 @ 9:45 AM.


#563

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Posted May 22, 2013 @ 9:54 AM

I agree... The females only dominated  because of the actors and or singers involved.  Yes Rachel gets storyline but she still never got that big issue storyline so she had to make boy trouble and auditions work.  Santana had to just worm her way in before getting a big issue plot that well lets just say could have been handle better.  Sue was written to dominate and well Jane does dominate.

 

Add Mercedes' voice to the mix and the female voices certainly dominated.


Edited by rachmo, May 22, 2013 @ 9:55 AM.


#564

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Posted Jun 9, 2013 @ 12:11 AM

If I could re-do S4, I would first replace the S3 nationals solo It’s All Coming Back with the superior Being Good Isn’t Good Enough, then open the season with recent NYADA graduate Rachel Berry’s Funny Girl audition song To Love You More. Then she goes home to her fellow recent graduates and roommates Kurt & Santana to tell them/worry about how it went. And go from there, without any of this New New Directions existence. Jesse, Harmony, and sporadically Shelby could be around their lives too. Oh, and the great Aaron Tveit as...someone since his new show proves he's willing to be on TV and that show looks bad. There, a main cast of 6 talented people would work.



#565

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Posted Jun 9, 2013 @ 12:12 PM

Puck did get an intervention, a multiple episode one, in season 3.

 

Puck's intervention was that if he tried he could probably pass geography. Not a ringing endorsement. Santana's intervention was that she was the talented person they knew, except for themselves, and could do anything she wanted. (Hers was also multuple episodes with Quinn doing it with hostility in Thanksgiving, Britt in Diva and the Kurt and Rachel).  So they weren't exactly the same thing.

 

 

 

I agree... The females only dominated  because of the actors and or singers involved.

 

I don't think that is entirely true. There was no outside acting or singing reason that Puck, Finn and Sam are all varying degrees of idiot. And Quinn, Rachel, Santana, and Mercedes are all clearly bound for success. And Cory is a pretty good actor and Mark a pretty good singer. The females in Season 1-3 partially dominated because they happened to have better voices (an imbalance they tried to offset in Season 4) and because they were often played by people who had more presence. But the women were written to be smarter and more primed for success. Cory could pull of witty as well as Naya or Dianna. These were writing choices. It is just a weird dichotomy of the show. It is insanely misogynistic but for whatever reasons the writers seem to have a stronger sense of identity with their female characters.

 

For instance, in Season 4 they tried to make McKinley more brocentric and instead the newbie who seemed closest to landing was Kitty.

 

Even when they're given a storyline it's filtered through a male POV.

 

This is a different thing. It is something the show is guilty of but it doesn't mean that in day to day writing they don't create more complex, funny, interesting female characters. Because they do. They just don't let those characters have agency. It is disgusting but those are two completely different issues. For instance, Brittany takes away Santana's agency just as Finn does for Rachel and Santana (for instance outting her on her webshow or posting a sextape without permission). It isn't the preference for males it is the preference for the desire to take strong women down a peg and make them dependent. It is a misogynistic show. Highly misogynistic but I wouldn't say it is traditionally a male dominated one.

 

Although I don't think Rachel's pregnancy counts too much because that was supposed to be about Santana becoming Rachel's friend and we did see it impact Rachel. The fact that it was just a false alarm was bad writing. It wasn't filtered through a male POV and her agency in the situation wasn't taken away there was just nothing to have agency over.


Edited by Cherith, Jun 9, 2013 @ 12:28 PM.


#566

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Posted Jun 18, 2013 @ 3:01 PM

I feel like RIB really cheapened the entire storyline and lost a good opportunity for character growth.  (I'm ignoring the fact that false pregnancies for serious pretty much NEVER happen...)

 

Rachel's a planner, she would have already had a contingency plan (or five) for the baby's first three years by the time she found out she wasn't really pregnant.  Even if she didn't want a child, there would be more of an emotional reaction there that we didn't see, and that threw me out of the scene.

 

I felt like the "false pregnancy y'all!" was more of a reaction to a reaction - to me it came off as "this is an AWESOME idea!" from the writers, and then when the ratings came in the backlash started online the writers went "whoa, we were not prepared for this, abort".

 

Well, inappropriate choice of words, as "abort" was not something they probably were ready to show on national syndicated tv...



#567

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Posted Jun 18, 2013 @ 3:13 PM

Random question do we know where NYADA is? Like physically located in the city? I honestly don't pay close enough attention in exterior shots.

 

I feel like RIB really cheapened the entire storyline and lost a good opportunity for character growth.  (I'm ignoring the fact that false pregnancies for serious pretty much NEVER happen...)

 

I really believe that the scene where she was coming out of the doctor's office and Santana was there to hug her was supposed to be a post-abortion scene but they had to change it. It isn't like the writers themselves would be afraid to go there. For all of their many flaws they aren't afraid to go into taboo places it is more the network afraid to let them.

 

Everything about Santana's reaction and Rachel closing up and refusing to even talk about anything that happened in the rest of the episode makes more sense with an abortion, imo. No matter which way you slice it Santana acted crazy even by her own standards. But it makes more sense if she is trying to help a friend who just went through something difficult but she has no idea how to do it so she takes out the frustration on a target.  Overcompensating is Santana's middle name. As does her saying Rachel just couldn't ignore what happened. And even Rachel trying to ignore it all and her sudden zero tolerance policy for Santana makes more sense for a girl trying not to think about something difficult and wanting to not be around the person who keeps forcing her to. (I am not saying her zero tolerance policy for Santana is unreasonable just that Rachel was always more about getting right into it with her not a cool distanced make her leave.)  I think she would throw a not pregnant party if it was just no big deal (not really but I don't think she would be as guarded and wanting to pretend it didn't happen).

 

God knows these writers suck so it probably was always meant to be a dumb "false-positive" (as though we are still using the rabbit method) but I just really think both girls' actions make more sense if it was post-abortion. Rachel just seemed shell shocked the whole episode. And Santana went from sort of amused about the Brody situation in the episode before to just insane vendetta. I think by the time they wrote the next episode they knew it wouldn't be an abortion and their reactions seemed more in tune with what actually happened in text. With them just snapping at each other with relatively little malice and Rachel's toothless threats to make Santana move out.

 

ETA: Don't get me wrong I am not complaining that it wasn't an abortion because if it was we would have had Finn singing Brick. Or Finn and Brody doing a Brick duet.  And, God knows, any fall out would be centered around his feelings about it. Just in context I think it was supposed to be.


Edited by Cherith, Jun 18, 2013 @ 6:33 PM.


#568

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Posted Jun 18, 2013 @ 3:59 PM

Random question do we know where NYADA is? Like physically located in the city? I honestly don't pay close enough attention in exterior shots.

Probably around Washington Square Park case that is where Brody and Rachel talk before walking to class and where she is surprised by Kurt.

 

An abortion for the dialog and scenes would make way more sense.  If it was jsut a false alarm what was the point?  They never really connected the dots of the false pregnancy to her actions or her even learning a lesson.   It was just dropped.


Edited by rachmo, Jun 18, 2013 @ 4:02 PM.


#569

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Posted Jun 22, 2013 @ 3:37 PM

Probably around Washington Square Park case that is where Brody and Rachel talk before walking to class and where she is surprised by Kurt.

 

Thanks! Knowing this I think everything about NYADA makes more sense to me if I imagine it is a college within the New School.