Jump to content

5-10: "Crucifixed" 2012.11.13 (recap)


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.

86 replies to this topic

#61

CtLady

CtLady

    Fanatic

Posted Nov 15, 2012 @ 12:43 PM

Wake up Jax - Pope caused Opie's death - stop licking his shoes.


Hmm..as much as Jax is worthy of twirling a moustache like Clay, I have this sinking suspicion that he's working Pope. For what, I'm not sure, but the more I think about Jax renegging on his promise to T.O., makes me think that he might be setting up ot replace one black ally with another (Pope) and with more power. Pope wants Jax to be smart - he's gonna wish he never made that charge to him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it winds up with the club not only allies with Pope but making him indebted to him somehow. How?? Maybe an attempt on Pope's life which the club thwarts. I don't know, but there's more to what we're seeing and, if Sutter follows his usual routine, he'll smack it all down on us in the finale.

I have a lot of theories about what might happen which I'll take over to the Speculation thread

#62

Snookums

Snookums

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Female

Posted Nov 15, 2012 @ 1:17 PM

I think both Pope and Jax are playing the other party. It's going to be a race to see who outflanks who first.

Pope has openly stated he wants the club to go down, since a club member and club business killed his daughter. He burned Tig's daughter alive for his punishment but decided to "study" the rest of them (Mistake number one for an efficient leader: Don't Get Fascinated By Your Target. Shoot and move on.)

He does his usual "brutal destruction of someone you love" routine on Jax in prison, assuming this will either break him or mold him into an efficent king. It does the latter and Pope now assumes he "knows" Jax and can manipulate him as much and as long as he pleases, destroying him whenever he wants to.

Wrong. He thinks he knows Jax, but he doesn't. It's like reading a case file on someone and deciding you know all about them. Jax has wounds and scrapings Pope just can't get his head around, just as Jax can't really comprehend the amount of sociopathy and will that goes into becoming someone like Damon Pope. Thinking you can shape your target into the form you understand destroying is a shortsightedness that can leave you fatally exposed.

Jax was raised in a messy, messy world, of love and old wounds and keening and revenge, so his version of "efficient", now that it's been overlaid with Pope's version of it, is really raising hackles and busting chops with his family/brothers/allies/subjects. Jax is trying to "be" a version of Pope in order to lull him into a trust position so he can take him out, but he's way too unstable and has too much of a past to answer to for it to work right.

The question becomes: who will alienate enough of their followers and ruin enough of their lives to become vulnerable to the other's attack first? Pope seems to be holding all the power, but he's been on top too long. He's forgotten how to lose something precious and irreplaceable and keep going. Jax does that every three days or so.

#63

Wainegro

Wainegro

    Just Tuned In

Posted Nov 15, 2012 @ 10:28 PM

[snip] Not to bore anyone, but I am a SOA fanatic. Seen every episode atleast 2-3 times just the same as all of you. Im 36 years old and I've never EVER posted on an internet message board. I happen to love this forum. I eagerly check every single day for your updates/comments. You guys/gals are so thoughtful and sincere in what you type. I am a fan of you all as much as I am a fan of the show. Sincerely. Thank you.

Now, I've had these feelings this whole season but this episode I can't take it anymore. I feel stinking HORRIBLE for Clay. This man LOVES Gemma. I mean l o v e s her to death. He is a flawed man, sure. I feel so terrible for him. He has lost his girl, his lover, his partner in crime, his best friend in Gemma. He has lost his club. He is deteroriating physically. He is on the outside of a club he once ran--looking in. I feel rotten for him. I really do. To the point where it compelled me to register here and type this. Trust me I am not an eloquent enough person to really convey just how bad I feel for him. [snip]

I see an old proud man. I see a veteran. A soldier. I don't know. I look back at old episodes. He loved Jax. Like his own son. He is being plotted against, schemed upon, shunned, and more. I really feel for him. He thinks Gemma is sincere in her newfound "interest" in him. He is sorry for what he did. God, it bothers me so much. I want to see Clay standing tall at the series finale at the head of that gosh darn table where he belongs. He earned it. [snip]

Edited by TWoP Howard, Nov 20, 2012 @ 10:52 PM.
Boards on boards


#64

toxxic

toxxic

    Just Tuned In

Posted Nov 15, 2012 @ 11:48 PM

Wainegro I do feel a little sorry for him when it comes to him and Gemma. It would be hard to watch her with Nero but at the end of the day it was his own doing.

As for the club, no way do i want him back at the head of the table. Are we meant to forget what he did to Piney? That he put a hit out on Tara? He may have loved Jax like his own but he also put a hit on the mother of his children.

I get why you feel bad for him but you know, he's doing/done his fair share of scheming and plotting. :)

#65

RocketFuel

RocketFuel

    Channel Surfer

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 3:07 AM

Yeah, I did feel a bit bad for Clay during that scene last season, with him bleeding on the hospital bed clutching his "President"-less cut, like it was all he had left in the world. But they just made him too evil by the finale, with what he did to Piney, Gemma and Tara (not to mention JT).

And then they started him this season still all scheming with little remorse. That little stunt with Emma-Jean to piss off Gemma, getting the nomads to beat up Unser, etc. I think if the writers veered more into fleshing out characters than making an adrenaline-y, chasing-bad-guys-to-loud-music show, than Clay totally would be more sympathetic. The only humanizing thing I remember about him this season is when he was looking at the old photo of him and Tig. I don't remember how he reacted to Opie's death, but he watched him grow up too and probably felt like shit about it. I believe he is a complex character and torn up about his broken relationship with Jax, but that hasn't been explored much. Clay seems to largely exist now to antagonize Jax and Gemma. Then again, with the actions of Jax recently, maybe I will root for Clay!

On another note, even if they do find those legal documents of "evidence" now, can't Clay just claim he found those on Frankie or in the nomads house after they all bit it 'cause he heard they were behind the invasions and was looking for his stuff back?

#66

Dallas Fan

Dallas Fan

    Fanatic

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 4:21 AM

I grew to like Clay - he's a man of action, yo! Stupid, reckless action, but at least he gets shit done. When he wants to kill someone, he goes and does it, or gets somebody else to do it, as opposed to plotting for entire season. And then he goes and plays noble old men to victim's husbands, sons, etc, who just sulk back at him. Sure, he is pretty dumb, and often makes his situation even worse, and on show with smart protagonists, he'd be long dead, but since he's surrounded not by cancer ridden chemistry teachers, but rather dumb and sometimes bizarrely undecisive bikers, he actually stoods out as somebody who is at least active, and gets to manipulate even stupidier, weak characters around him.

It also cracks me up how he manipulates everyone playing wounded lion. I also like how he goes about killing, not with sadistic glee, but rather pragmatic "oh well, that's too bad, but off you go". I don't think he enjoys murdering all those people as much as they just get in the way. He's pretty much moral vacuum.

Doesn't Jax need "proof" to kill Juice? You know, forensic evidence everyone is so concerned with nowadays? Just say "I plead fifth", Juice, if it works for Clay, then is sure should for you!

Edited by Dallas Fan, Nov 16, 2012 @ 4:23 AM.


#67

CtLady

CtLady

    Fanatic

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 8:06 AM

Pope has openly stated he wants the club to go down, since a club member and club business killed his daughter.


You see, this is the dangling chad that irks me.

Tig and the club did NOT kill Veronica Pope - at least, on purpose. She was NOT the target. LaRoy was. Veronica was just caught up in it. Does it make her death any less tragic, no. But Tig is not the real culprit. He acted (or reacted) on what Clay told him - that it was 'black' who shot him. Being extremely loyal to Clay, Tig took it upon himself to avenge his shooting by going after LaRoy, but Veronica was the one who suffered. When Clay admitted at the table that he lied about it being 'black' who shot him, the look on Tig's face was heart wrenching - realizing a young woman died because of a lie that was told him.

Tig can't die. Heck, Redwood can't lose any more members. My guess is that Jax has to somehow convince Pope that it was Clay who got the ball rolling by telling the lie and that Tig was only doing his duty based upon what Clay admitted. Then, Pope can have Clay killed, however, the tables get turned and Clay winds up killing Pope. Knowing Clay's a wanted man by Pope's people (and the club has every reason to kill Clay) someone (Happy I hope! That man needs to live up to his tats!) kills Pope's killer (Clay) and the club gets the 5 million from Pope's 'death insurance policy' or.....at least splits it with the assassins Pope has 'on call' to kill his killer.

Even still, I'd hate to see Clay killed off so soon. That man's utter punishment is living with the memory of everything he destroyed. I love his character too. He's being who he is - a man who goes to whatever lengths he has to to protect what's his. Is he heinous? Is he despicable? Yes, of course, but that's the beauty of Clay

Even if Clay, Tig and Juice get offed, the club is left with, what.....five people? And you know what that means - bringing in MORE extra characters, which I do not want. I miss the first and second season when it was all about the characters we have and family. When's the last time they got together as a 'family'? Why aren't we digging into the lives of other members and flesh them out better? This show now reminds me of Rescue Me - great the first two seasons, but just became a mess of incontinuity and unexplainable contrivances to make things work and shock people and make the viewers not even care for the characters anymore

#68

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

    Stalker

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 8:23 AM

Even if Clay, Tig and Juice get offed, the club is left with, what.....five people? And you know what that means - bringing in MORE extra characters, which I do not want.


I was thinking about that. There is no way Jax's plans go off like planned. Because if Clay, Tig and Juice get killed then that along with Opie is like half of the main Samcro characters. And I don't really care to see a season that is just Bobby, Chibs and Jax (along with Happy , Phil and some prospects).

As for Tara's legal role in this mess: Accessory to Murder (or Aiding and Abetting in said murder) requires knowing that a crime had been or was going to be committed. No way the police can prove she knew Otto was going to kill someone, let alone use his dead wife's crucifix (not normally recognized as a physical weapon) to do it.


I am no lawyer, but I am not so sure about that. I mean Tara brought a sharp pointy metal object into prison for a guy who is on death row for killing a guy with a sharp pointy metal object. Sure she might not have known exactly that he would use it to kill the nurse, but it would be reasonable to assume that he might use it as a weapon. And even if she was dumb enough not to think that as a possibility, I would think that a good DA would be able to convince a jury that she did. Especially once it is revealed that she is the wife of the man who runs Otto's gang.

That said I don't think it will go anywhere, although my ideal outcome would be for Tara to lose her medical licence for acting unethically in using her position as a doctor to do prison favours for her husbands motorcycle gang. Losing any chance of actually being a doctor again would fit perfectly with Tara;s downward spiral since she got involved with Jax.

Edited by Kel Varnsen, Nov 16, 2012 @ 8:24 AM.


#69

Dallas Fan

Dallas Fan

    Fanatic

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 8:37 AM

eing extremely loyal to Clay, Tig took it upon himself to avenge his shooting by going after LaRoy, but Veronica was the one who suffered.

If it were my daughter, I would not find it remotely convincing and would want him to die screaming.
All Clay said was that some black guy shoot him. It is plausible that it was Leroy's crew, but not certain. Basically, it could be anyone. Clay never asked Tig to act like complete moron. Tig didn't have to go and try to kill someone right then, and without consulting his club. And even if Leroy was certain culprit, there was absolutely no need to jam into his table when he was sitting there with obviously innocent girl. Wait half an hour until Leroy is on his own.
If these pathetic excuses do not mollify me in the least, I expect nothing else from ruthless crime boss.

Of course he's the real culprit. If I tell someone that black guy tried to kill me I would not naturally assume that my best friend is about to blow up restaurant on account of another black person sitting there, even if I were part of a gang.

Tig didn't HAVE to do any of that and innocent woman dying was completely predictable. That she was just some unimportant collateral damage doesn't make her death any less offensive to her parent. As for Tig being particularly upset about it, well, he killed guard's wife, another innocent woman, soon after.

If I were crime boss, my idea of peace offering from club would be nothing short of Tig's head. They didn't send it - one of their own died.

#70

CtLady

CtLady

    Fanatic

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 10:44 AM

. Clay never asked Tig to act like complete moron. Tig didn't have to go and try to kill someone right then, and without consulting his club. And even if Leroy was certain culprit, there was absolutely no need to jam into his table when he was sitting there with obviously innocent girl


All well and good, but, in the end, NONE of this would've happened if Clay wasn't a lying liar who lies. Plain and simple.

#71

DanDanNoodles

DanDanNoodles

    Couch Potato

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 10:47 AM

I mean Tara brought a sharp pointy metal object into prison for a guy who is on death row for killing a guy with a sharp pointy metal object.

Seems to me what Tara could say is, "That was MY crucifix, and Otto ripped it off me during his frenzied attack on the three of us." There's no reason for her to admit she had smuggled it in for him.

#72

CtLady

CtLady

    Fanatic

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 11:09 AM

I mean Tara brought a sharp pointy metal object into prison for a guy who is on death row for killing a guy with a sharp pointy metal object.

Seems to me what Tara could say is, "That was MY crucifix, and Otto ripped it off me during his frenzied attack on the three of us."



Not sure that would fly either because I think anyone coming into contact with prisoners would've had to leave certain objects (ie: jewelry, cell phones maybe, hairpins/barrets, etc behind which may be harmful. Which makes me wonder how the heck she got that girnormous crucifix in past security. That thing would've set off metal detectors galore!

#73

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

    Stalker

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 11:31 AM

Not sure that would fly either because I think anyone coming into contact with prisoners would've had to leave certain objects (ie: jewelry, cell phones maybe, hairpins/barrets, etc behind which may be harmful. Which makes me wonder how the heck she got that girnormous crucifix in past security. That thing would've set off metal detectors galore!


The more I think about it the more I think that loss of medical licence is probably going to be the outcome. If they try and do charge Tara with accessory to murder, and have an actual trial, there are going to be too many questions about how she got the cross into the hospital, or even how she got to work in the hospital, that are going to poke holes in the story and cause it to not make sense. But if the professional origination that licences doctors is anything like the professional organization I belong to then the burden of proof is a lot less lower than an actual criminal trial. So it would be a lot easier for them to say she acted unethically and strip he of her licence without any kind of big trial scene.

#74

Snookums

Snookums

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Female

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 2:03 PM

Tig and the club did NOT kill Veronica Pope - at least, on purpose. She was NOT the target. LaRoy was. Veronica was just caught up in it. Does it make her death any less tragic, no. But Tig is not the real culprit. He acted (or reacted) on what Clay told him - that it was 'black' who shot him. Being extremely loyal to Clay, Tig took it upon himself to avenge his shooting by going after LaRoy, but Veronica was the one who suffered. When Clay admitted at the table that he lied about it being 'black' who shot him, the look on Tig's face was heart wrenching - realizing a young woman died because of a lie that was told him.



I sincerely doubt Damon Pope would care. There's facts and there's truth. The facts may be that Veronica was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the truth is Tig went off half-cocked because of a giant, self-serving lie by Clay and set all this in motion. They didn't want to get on Damon Pope's radar; heck, they didn't even know about him at the time. But that's exactly where they ended up, because of their devotion to emotion and revenge over ten seconds of clear, collected thought. Pope is probably just offended by their sloppiness as by the death of his daughter.

#75

Biker Lady

Biker Lady

    Channel Surfer

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Idaho
  • Interests:Harleys, horses and dogs

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 3:39 PM

I would think that a good DA would be able to convince a jury that she did. Especially once it is revealed that she is the wife of the man who runs Otto's gang.




Which will happen. Didn't Margaret tell Tara in the hospital that she filed Tara's marriage to Jaxs so their kids would be covered by her insurance?

Edited by Biker Lady, Nov 16, 2012 @ 3:54 PM.


#76

Dallas Fan

Dallas Fan

    Fanatic

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 4:31 PM

All well and good, but, in the end, NONE of this would've happened if Clay wasn't a lying liar who lies. Plain and simple.

But it also wouldn't happen if Tig wasn't murderous idiot. It's not like responsibility works. Lots of actions lead to certain outcome, but guilt lies on person who could predict outcome of their action. If I lie to someone that I saw his wife holding hands with another guy with red hair, and he immediately assumes that it was his friend, and that it was an affair, and without spending five minutes to check either fact, kills his wife and his friend, that's definitely on him. Since nobody forced him to commit actual murder, and he owed it to victims to make sure in any case. Clay - or anyone - is guilty as far as consequences of his actions were predictable - if I leave car keys in the car, some teen steals it and kills someone, it's not something that I absolutely couldn't guess, but it's unlikely consequence, and not my fault. I mean, the murder also wouldn't happen if Veronica decided not to go for a date, but it's not her fault, as she couldn't predict end result of her decision. OTOH, Clay should know his good friend pretty well by now. OTOH, I don't think he would guess that Tig would decide to ram into innocent woman to get to some maybe-guilty maybe-not guy. That was absolutely unnecessary, there was no reason to drive straight into this table with innocent woman behind it, even if LaRoy was guilty as hell. That's on Tig. I'd say Clay is guilty of putting black gang (Niners?) in mortal danger, as he knows Tig and his pals pretty well, however, Tig is absolutely guilty of every one of his action. None of them were necessary, and he wasn't forced into either of them. If he cared one fig about killing some girl, he would wait until LaRoy was alone - plain and simple. He knew that his actions could lead to her death, and didn't care.

In Pope's place I'd kill both to be on the safe side. Certainly no loss for humanity.

They didn't want to get on Damon Pope's radar; heck, they didn't even know about him at the time.

Just to think, if it was somebody else's daughter they'd get away with it, too. Sickening.

ETA: Seriously, since when "I didn't mean to kill this kid, but they were standing in the way of killing rival gang member" is a valid excuse?

Edited by Dallas Fan, Nov 16, 2012 @ 4:39 PM.


#77

elkana

elkana

    Video Archivist

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 5:40 PM

A little late to the party this week, but I have to chime in and say not only do I absolutely fucking loathe Tara now (thank you, Kurt Sutter for ruining one of my favorite characters with pointless stupidity) but I was actually hoping that Otto was going to kill her with the absolutely enormous crucifix that is completely unrealistic to bring into a prison. I used to root for Tara. Now I am disappointed she wasn't murdered.

I get the idea Tara is an emotional mess and maybe needy and thought a big hug from the baby would be comforting. But if that is the point they are trying to make, why have her frightening Thomas by stomping on a kiddie piano like a mean old hag? That just makes her seems like a terrible mother, a complete hypocrite for judging Gemma and Wendy so harshly, and just generally dispicable.

#78

justareader

justareader

    Just Tuned In

Posted Nov 16, 2012 @ 7:13 PM

Long time lurker here but I also love Clay & want to see him rise again & become a better person. I know Clay always plotting and his plans never go the way their suppose too. I think hes finally at a point where hes tired of lying/protecting something he doesn't really care about anymore. On the subject of Gemma, Jax is being vengeful he doesn't need her help to take down Clay, he has like 2 other people working on that & I bet if clay knew what Jax is forcing her to do he would be pissed at Jax not for tricking him but forcing her to be with him. One thing I don't understan.. whats with Jax hiding everything from the club?? They don't know about Pope,Tig,Gemma,Juice,Reco,Clay. I bet if they knew they wouldn't support what Jax is trying to do. The only thing I can think of is that Jax doesn't care what happens to the club after he leaves.

#79

Ronin Jackson

Ronin Jackson

    Couch Potato

Posted Nov 17, 2012 @ 7:20 PM

This is one of those shows I'm not really sure why I still watch. It's well made and I am invested enough to want to see where it goes, but I'm not sure there really is a purpose in watching a show about the relentlessly brutal consequences of people behaving stupidly and never learning. I'm okay with shows about anti heroes. My favorite show is Breaking Bad. That's also a brutal show about criminals but there are fewer of them and the big difference, they are truly smart criminals. The decisions they make are fascinating because they find unique ways of problem solving whenever their criminal behavior comes to a head. SOA pales in comparison in every facet. I will probably close out the season at least but if they drag on some of these story lines to next season I won't bother continuing.

#80

HannahMiller

HannahMiller

    Channel Surfer

Posted Nov 17, 2012 @ 11:45 PM

Random superficial comment---any notice how much leaner Tommy Flanagan is this season compared to 3 and 4? Wondered why is hotness level just exploded this year.

#81

SarahEC308

SarahEC308

    Couch Potato

Posted Nov 18, 2012 @ 10:10 AM

Random superficial comment---any notice how much leaner Tommy Flanagan is this season compared to 3 and 4? Wondered why is hotness level just exploded this year.


This was the first episode that I have noticed. I kept thinking that he looks skinny and I wondered if he had always been that thin and I never noticed, or if he had lost weight.

#82

Dallas Fan

Dallas Fan

    Fanatic

Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 10:45 AM

I'm okay with shows about anti heroes. My favorite show is Breaking Bad. That's also a brutal show about criminals but there are fewer of them and the big difference, they are truly smart criminals. The decisions they make are fascinating because they find unique ways of problem solving whenever their criminal behavior comes to a head. SOA pales in comparison in every facet.

I agree with that, but to me it's still the best season so far (last season was great too). I couldn't stand the show in the beginning because there seemed to be some sort of glorifying of violent career criminals, who are trash plain and simple, even if few have some slightly redeeming qualities. There is nothing cool about violence, misogyny, racism, selling drugs and guns, and pimping out women. I am glad they are shown as what they are, just like those who choose to love them.
It is very funny to think though how every single character on Breaking Bad is more badass that any Son. Even Walter Jr, if he came to Charming, would probably end up running the club.

#83

elkana

elkana

    Video Archivist

Posted Nov 20, 2012 @ 7:22 PM

It is very funny to think though how every single character on Breaking Bad is more badass that any Son. Even Walter Jr, if he came to Charming, would probably end up running the club

.

Love it!! Can that be a spin off please? Pretty, pretty please??

I can see it now, Walt Jr trades in his crutches for a Harley, and if war erupts between the "fierce mothers"... well, my money will be on Skylar over Gemma as well.

But seriously, this is a problem with the show these days (SOA that is, not BrBa) in that it is harder and harder to buy that these guys are who they are supposed to be.

#84

TWoP Howard

TWoP Howard

    Stalker

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Minneapolis
  • Interests:If you have a question for me, please use the Messenger/PM system to do that rather than leaving a question on this page (unless you’re a Just Tuned In, who won’t be able to use it until you’ve made ten posts). Thanks!

Posted Nov 20, 2012 @ 10:56 PM

Remember, this thread is for this episode. We have other threads in which to speculate, or discuss characters in depth, or to talk about the season as a whole.

The recap is up.

#85

Guest

Guest

    Just Tuned In

Posted Jun 24, 2013 @ 3:34 AM

In a conversation with the mayor, Jax refers to "TM". Does anyone know what it stands for? Here's the exchange: 

 

"There's a couple things I'd like us to be clear on. When I make this happen, T.M. gets the contract to do all the mechanical work on Charming Heights' maintenance vehicles."

 



Another abbreviation I came across was "G.N." 

 

Bastards' leader (?) says to Jax: "G.N. recruited Randy because of his size."

 

 

Darn all these abbreviations! Why can't people spell shit out anymore?? 


Edited by Guest, Jun 24, 2013 @ 3:35 AM.


#86

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

    Stalker

Posted Jun 27, 2013 @ 7:49 AM

 

In a conversation with the mayor, Jax refers to "TM". Does anyone know what it stands for? Here's the exchange: 

 

 

TM is Teller Morrow Automotive, the auto shop next to the clubhouse.



#87

HickoryColt

HickoryColt

    Stalker

Posted Jul 2, 2013 @ 1:54 PM

A little late to the party this week, but I have to chime in and say not only do I absolutely fucking loathe Tara now (thank you, Kurt Sutter for ruining one of my favorite characters with pointless stupidity) but I was actually hoping that Otto was going to kill her with the absolutely enormous crucifix that is completely unrealistic to bring into a prison. I used to root for Tara. Now I am disappointed she wasn't murdered.

 

Way late to watching this on iTunes, but I have never liked Tara and she is fucking stupid for giving Otto a crucifix and leaving him alone in that room.  Deserves what she gets. 

 

It is a bit ridiculous how fast they are killing off so many characters anymore.  The whole club is going to be dead by the end.  Its turning out like survivor, last one standing I guess gets to be "president". 

 

Why on earth would so many people want to be in this club?  Most are lucky to survive the trial period before becoming a member


Edited by TWoP Howard, Jul 2, 2013 @ 5:35 PM.
It's okay to use words like "fucking" here, but don't hide them behind symbols, please