231 replies to this topic

[TWoP Lockley]

READ BEFORE POSTING:

This thread is for discussion of THIS EPISODE. Brief references to past events as they may relate to the events of this episode are fine, but keep it in check.

In-depth conversations about the ongoing motivations, relationship dynamics or characterizations of any characters on this show are off-topic in this thread unless you are directly relating it to the events of the episode at hand.

There are plenty of places to talk about these things that are not this thread. I will be moving off-topic posts, or deleting them entirely so post thoughtfully here.

Also please try to avoid hyperbole everywhere. i.e... "The writers ALWAYS {fill in the blank} for Sam but NEVER {yadayadayada}for Dean."

The crybaby sound is implied in such statements and more importantly, this tit-for-tat Sam vs Dean stuff is inflammatory and against the special rules of this forum which I am politely asking you to re-visit before posting this week.

DO NOT, and this is important, because you will be immediately suspended from posting if you do this, engage in circular commentary with your fellow posters, repeating your own opinion over and over. Your posts should add something new to the discussion every time.

Thanks!

Edited by TWoP Lockley, Nov 7, 2012 @ 8:26 PM.

[hat]

Wow, this episode was a just one big borefest and I didn't think I could dislike Sam any worse, but yeah, Glass has made me like Sam even less than I already had. I can't believe how Sam never was even sorry for the crap he pulled and still blamed Dean. What is his big beef with Benny? After all the crap he did, he still gets on his high horse with Dean and acts like it's still all Dean's fault.

The flashbacks were so boring, and the girl can't act. Sam has 3 expressions throught the whole episode and I don't think JP knows how to act sympathetic. He just comes off so coarse and arrogant making Sam so unlikable.

What a waste of an hour. Garth was totally annoying and this episode was so cliched and stupid.

I give it an F

Edited by hat, Nov 7, 2012 @ 10:06 PM.

[Kimit]

I love Sam. I love his character so much, so that's why it's extremely hard for me to understand what the writers are doing to him this season. As someone who enjoys this character I can honestly say I'm finding it hard to like him this season and I can't get on his side...and I hate his stupid flashbacks. I'm glad he finally mentioned Dean in them, but it's hard to understand his sadness over losing his brother when he just gave up immediately and didn't try to look for him.

It's too bad they spent season 7 repairing the brothers relationship just to rip it apart this season. I'm so tired of the angst.

Anyway. Garth didn't bother me this time around. The episode was okay. I just watch this show for Sam and Dean, so it's hard to enjoy the show when they're being written like this.

[Grace Oakley]

Was I the only one yelling at Dean to leave Sam's ass?

[jediknight]

Sam didn't know brothers fought against each other in the Civil War? I swear you put season 8 Sam's brain in a parakeet, the thing will fly backwards. Are they going to say that Amelia has caused Sam to lose intelligence. This is only the 6th episode of the season, but Sam's been a total idiot. He dropped the Mjolnir, yelled while Dean was infiltrating a vampire's nest, and now this.

Garth was a lot better in this episode than in his previous episodes. Hell, I liked him more than I did Bobby in season 7.

[shamangrrl]

This episode was totally schizophrenic. It was clunky, the scenes didn't mesh, the scene cuts were awkward, it couldn't decide whether it was a serious episode or a comedic episode, Garth was all over the place (semi-competant one minute, totally incompetant the next), anvils rained down (*another* brother vs brother lame-ass storyline) to no avail...

I actually had hopes for this one. Silly me.

So, Dean gets the Garth equivalent of the "suck it up princess" speech, Sam equates everything he's ever done with Dean not telling him about Benny, who is actually none of Sam's business, tells Dean to get off his high horse, while once again on *his* high horse, and once again threatens to leave because Dean is a big meany. All while making bitch faces and twitching.

Drop him off at the nearest bus station, already.

[exit only]

I thought this was an awful episode, Garth was not just a Mary Sue but also the Exposition Fairy who knows everything about everything.

I don't even know what to say about Sam at this point, except that if he wants to move on, no one is stopping him. In fact, he's the one who decided to come along in the first place.

I'm glad he finally mentioned Dean in them, but it's hard to understand his sadness over losing his brother when he just gave up immediately and didn't try to look for him.

Yes.

Sam didn't know brothers fought against each other in the Civil War? I swear you put season 8 Sam's brain in a parakeet, the thing will fly backwards.

I actually told my TV that that was a stupid question by Sam.

Edited by exit only, Nov 7, 2012 @ 10:12 PM.

[Grace Oakley]

Does he not understand that Dean is hurt? Where is Mr. Compassion? If Sam would of acted a bit contrite there he would have been likeable. Instead he gets on his high horse threatening to kill someone that Dean cares about. Threatening once again to leave Dean. The writers have to know how this makes Sam look, right?

Edited by Grace Oakley, Nov 7, 2012 @ 10:17 PM.

[Tippi Blevins]

Dean should have shot Garth for talking with his mouth full.

With or without the penny's influence.

[sallymonelly]

Wow, I like Sam but he was really an arrogant asshole in this episode. He compared Benny to Amy, when they were nothing alike, and making everything about himself, and in the end, he didn't even have enough shame to apologize to his brother but instead threatens to leave him? Dean, drop his ass off to the nearest train station, bus station, taxi terminal, whatever but get rid of this ass.

Garth was ok but he's not my favorite character and if he doesn't show up for a long time I will be happy.

Amelia is, bland and all the flashbacks were too many to be interesting.

This episode was really bad, making Sam look stupid and an asshat.

Dean honey, you deserve better.

[calamitysxchild]

There was a bit at the end of the promo for the next episode that replayed ten times on my station. Did that happen to anyone else? It was so bizarre!

I was pretty bored by the episode in general. I actually left the room to make some food, came back ten minutes later, and didn't feel like I missed anything.

[Parcae3]

Wow, I don't even know what to say about this. I mean, way to make me hate Sam even more. Funny how he can identify and sympathize with Amelia's loss, and yet he can't sympathize with his brother. And I guess Sam only thinks of Dean fondly when Dean's dead. Or when he thinks Dean MIGHT be dead, because it's not like he bothered to look. And way to get on your high horse, Sam. Because yes, you abandoning your brother in Purgatory and not even giving a crap about him is completely the same about Dean keeping his friend a secret. The friend who helped save him and who actually does care about him. Whatever, Show. It doesn't matter how much Sam snorts and shouts and whines, it doesn't make what he did right and it sure as hell doesn't make him a good brother. Or even a good friend or hunting partner. It just makes him a lousy human being.

Garth is a complete Mary Sue. I was fine with him in his first episode, annoyed with him in his second, but this one pushed the limits. It's like they can't figure out what they want for him. First, he's an over affectionate child. Then he's some Bobby wannabe, bad ass hunter. Then he's an Encyclopedia of knowledge. Then he's a child who wells up when Dean says one harsh thing to him. Just too much. Garth is too much. I'm done with him.

I thought the specter was interesting, and I really felt for his victims, although the last two before Dean were pretty shallow with their resentments. But I thought the flashback to what had happened was not very well done. Way too hammered in. It wasn't like the one used in "Road Kill," which was better done, IMO.

I loved Dean in this one, and I LOVED that he was allowed to bring up all of Sam's betrayals! But I HATE that he backed down in the end. I really was rooting for him to just say, "fine, bye" when Sam talked about "letting it go." So hateful. Sam abandons his brother, and DEAN is the one who gets the "you are all you have" speech. Tell that to Sam, who cheerfully left his brother behind. Garth really was Bobby like in that regards.

I so wish Dean hadn't backed down at the end. I'm so tired of him being told his hurt and feelings of betrayal are nothing and he should let them go. But maybe he really didn't remember what he said. I don't think the woman who murdered her husband remembered. She was shocked by the Alcott mention. So maybe Dean didn't really remember. I do wish he would go off and find Benny and hunt with him, and let Sam go back to Amelia. Who apparently is a drunk who thinks everyone is feeling sorry for her. At least in the latter, she and Sam will get along! Regardless, at least Dean didn't apologize. And he stood up for his friend against Sam, whose biggest argument seemed to be that he was pissed off Dean had a friend and therefore, he should get to gank him. Oy.

All in all, a typical Glass episode. Which isn't a compliment. I would really have rathered Carver or Edlund wrote this one.

[omelas]

If this episode was supposed to make me understand Sam better then they failed miserably. This must be deliberate on the writers part because his actions/words are too outrageous to be anything else. His characterization is making the show unwatchable for me.

[MadCaps]

Garth really is the new Bobby complete with suck it up princess speeches.

Sam has become completely loathsome. He continues to think only about himself and what he wants and his feelings.

He doesn't feel any remorse for all the times he has betrayed Dean and he's completely delusional if he thinks that Dean not telling him about Benny equates to all the shit he has pulled over the years. Oh yeah, and he's going to kill Benny for revenge on Amy. There is nothing heroic left about this character.

He also makes a complete joke out of this so-called brotherly bond that the writers keep telling us is the heart of the show.

And instead of constantly threatening to leave, he should just go. It's not like he gives a shit about Dean or saving people so I don't even know why he is hanging around to torture Dean and us.

I didn't think I could hate an episode more than Fallen Idols, Adam Glass managed to top even that. Well done.

[MichaelaBelle]

I thought it was an okay episode. I don't mind Garth, not that I want to see him again too soon. I really hope Sam is the one who kills Benny. Dean is just such a nasty jerk to everyone, I can't find anything likable about him this season. I guess it's all part of his PTSD to have him act like this but he's just insufferable. I really can't blame Sam for not being thrilled to be stuck in the car with him. Sam is a much more sympathetic a character, although I'm still not liking Amelia much. Although I can see why Dean likes Benny, he's becoming rather monsterous himself.

Edited by MichaelaBelle, Nov 7, 2012 @ 10:24 PM.

[Blackmantra53]

That's it? A little finger pointing and accusations flying and it's finished? Sam ran away again and Dean forgave him again. Perhaps that makes Dean the bigger man, but somehow I find it hard to believe that a couple of words from Garth would bring about that epiphany. Dean can forgive Sam and still tell him to go away, and I wish he would do that. Sam is so sanctimonious I cannot stand him at all now.
No originality with this one whatsoever. Brother has to become possessed to speak him mind, then all is glossed over in the end.
Please may Garth never darken my screen again. I do nor care that he was drawn into the hinting life when he dispatched a toothfairy. A toothfairy of all things.
He is not Bobby, he will never be Bobby, and given his age cannot possibly know a fraction of what Bobby did. I was terribly disappointed when Dean tacitly gave his approval to Garth's self promotion.
Sam had better not go looking for Benny or I shall be most displeased.

ETA-I retract my comment about Dean forgiving Sam. A second viewing now indicates to me that Dean simply chose to not rise to the bait Sam was chumming the water with. I think Dean has made a decision concerning his relationship with Sam and Sam may find it rather shocking.

Edited by Blackmantra53, Nov 7, 2012 @ 11:23 PM.

[WynterWolf]

This must be deliberate on the writers part because his actions/words are too outrageous to be anything else.

That's all I can come up with too, otherwise I have stepped into bizarro world.

Sam ran away again and Dean forgve him again.

Dean didn't look very forgiving to me. That's really the only thing I'm clinging to right now.

Edited by WynterWolf, Nov 7, 2012 @ 10:24 PM.

[Grace Oakley]

Nevermind.

Edited by Grace Oakley, Nov 7, 2012 @ 10:37 PM.

[lynnea6]

So Dean finally has a chance to confront Sam about his feelings, and he doesn't get to remember it because he was ghost-roofied? And then Sam used it as an opportunity to pile on him and threaten Benny? Wow.

[hat]

I find it hard to believe that a couple of words from Garth would bring about that epiphany.

Garth spoke to the wrong brother. But then again, Garth was channeling Bobby who really had lessons only for Dean. I'm not sure this writer likes Sam cause he sure made him an arrogant bitch.

[Aeryn13]

Wow, Sam needs to walk into oncoming traffic right now as far as I`m concerned. Dean "getting off his high horse"? How about you try it first, Sam? Instead of smugly sitting on it and not showing a single bit of remorse over, well, anything. And threatening to leave again? Pfft. Please do.

Garth is totally annoying with the pimpage. And I had hoped losing Bobby would lose the "suck it up, princess" speeches too. But nope, it`s still only Dean that gets them while Sam skates free forever and ever. No wonder he apparently feels entitled to be the biggest jackass ever.

Am unhappy Dean didn`t drop Sam`s ass at the nearest bus station. But he didn`t completely back down in terms of Benny which I liked.

Because Sam wouldn`t kill Benny out of care for his brother or the world, because he thinks him a potential danger. He would do it completely out of spite. For "Ruby and Amy", if you will. His pettiness is pathetic. He takes something he finds to look down on Dean for (even imagined) and uses it to boost himself up. Loser.

[bethy]

Was I the only one yelling at Dean to leave Sam's ass?

No. And I had just gotten a kiddo back to bed.

As someone who has always liked Sam (though I do generally symaphathize more with Dean), I honestly cannot figure out what the writers/show runners think they're doing with the character of Sam this season. Do they also believe what Sam seems to believe, that Sam is justified in his behavior? That Dean's not telling Sam about Benny is the same as Sam's not looking for Dean at all or trying to save his brother from Purgatory? That Dean is "wrong" because he didn't tell Sam about Benny, and that Sam is "right" because he was honest about the fact that he wants to quit the hunting life?

Through Dean's whole rant at Sam I thought, "Yes. Good. It's out in the open, let's have them deal with it," and then we get Sam arrogant, self-righteous, "I told you the truth and you lied to me" diatribe and Dean all, "Yeah, OK."

Let Sam leave, Dean. Go find Benny, or help out Garth or whatever. But cut Sam loose. We're all tired of him.

[Cieley]

Wow, I really hated this episode. The more things change on this show, the more they stay the same, don't they?

So Sam claims that he has been completely open and aboveboard about everything with Dean? So what was his excuse for not even looking for Dean when he disappeared? I must have missed his explanation.

Dean tells Sam that Benny is his friend, that Benny is the reason he survived in Purgatory, and Sam makes a big point to Dean of threatening to kill him? Nice. Dean was possessed; what was Sam's excuse? And what does Sam have against Benny anyway -- I thought he was determined to quit hunting, and if people got killed because of it, it wasn't his problem. So why would he even care if Benny is a vampire?

Garth was not just a Mary Sue but also the Exposition Fairy who knows everything about everything.

Garth is worse than that -- he has become the "Creator's Pet". As in this quote from tvtropes.org in their entry on "The Scrappy":

On the other hand, if the writers take a shine to The Scrappy and add some elements of Mary Sue, or otherwise put more focus on them over more popular/liked characters, this will add gasoline to the flames - they've just turned The Scrappy into the dreaded Creator's Pet.

Edited by Cieley, Nov 7, 2012 @ 10:34 PM.

[Sudoka]

Was I the only one yelling at Dean to leave Sam's ass?

I yelled "BYE!" so loud my pet rabbit leapt a foot in the air out of shock!
The look Dean gave him when he said that he might be the hunter to kill Benny was pretty cold. It's weird because Sam doesn't even want to be a hunter anymore, and now all of a sudden he might be the hunter to kill Benny? Nothing like revenge/one-upsmanship to motivate someone back into the family business.

[Andiamo]

I loved this episode. I laughed myself silly during the first half-hour with Garth as the new Bobby and the boys reactions. And Garth killed the tooth fairy! Dean and Garth in the motel was lovely. "Bobby belonged to all of us." (Or something like that.)

A lot of grievances were aired that needed to be aired. Sam stood up to Dean when he needed to, accepted Dean's criticism when necessary. Dean's closing scenes with Garth were touching. You could see some of Dean's bitterness evaporating (a testament to Jensen's acting).

Is everything ok with the brothers? No. But at least they're being honest with each other.

Edited to add:

Dean should have shot Garth for talking with his mouth full.

I thought the same thing. Then I remembered Dean's the same thing several times. :D

Edited by Andiamo, Nov 7, 2012 @ 10:38 PM.

[Parcae3]

And what does Sam have against Benny anyway -- I thought he was determined to quit hunting, and if people got killed because of it, it wasn't his problem. So why would he even care if Benny is a vampire?

I really think that he hates Benny simply because Benny is Dean's friend. He had no problem with Lenore going non killing. And he believed Lenore just because. So why does Benny not get the benefit of the doubt? Simply because he helped Dean and Dean likes him.

And you are right, what does Sam care? He's going to quit hunting anyways, and he doesn't care about saving people anymore. So what does he care about Benny being out there? There are a LOT of vampires out there murdering people that he doesn't give a crap about because he doesn't save people anymore, yet he conveniently is laser focusing on the one who is Dean's friend.

It's all just spite.

Edited by Parcae3, Nov 7, 2012 @ 10:44 PM.

[MadCaps]

So Sam claims that he has been completely open and aboveboard about everything with Dean? So what was his excuse for not even looking for Dean when he disappeared? I must have missed his explanation.

He conveniently assumed Dean was dead. Apparently that's his explanation.

A lot of grievances were aired that needed to be aired. Sam stood up to Dean when he needed to, accepted Dean's criticism when necessary.

I didn't see Sam accepting Dean's criticism. I saw him keeping quiet because he had a gun pointed at his head. Then he unloaded on Dean in the end scene and threatened to run away again. He's an entitled petty, vindictive little asshole.

Edited by MadCaps, Nov 7, 2012 @ 10:41 PM.

[Sudoka]

I would also say that Bobby's filthy baseball cap might be the link to him possibly returning if it wasn't for the fact that he seemed to burn up when the flask was melted.
Who knows though... the writers seem eager to constantly rewrite their own mythology as it suits them.

[Grace Oakley]

One thing interesting here, Dean was willing to take Sam's anger. Even allowing Sam to compare not telling him about Benny with letting him rot in purgatory, until Sam threatens Benny. You could see Dean change there, Sam had gone too far Dean was no longer willing to play that game with Sam.

[sallymonelly]

Sam stood up to Dean when he needed to, accepted Dean's criticism when necessary.

Sam didn't accept Dean's criticism, he flung them back at Dean and threatend not only that he would leave, but that he would kill Benny. Sam was exceptionally cruel and heartless in this episode at least to his brother, which was quite a contrast with his flashbacks showing how patient and understanding he was with Amelia.

So if Sam loves Amelia, and can't seem to stand staying with Dean, then why doesn't he just leave? Please.