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2-3: "State of Independence" 2012.10.014


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#1

Oni

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:05 PM

Nobody made a topic so I thought I would. The episode just ended a few minutes ago. thanks! Technical difficulties on my end today.--Lockley

Redemption finally for Carrie! But the suicide attempt was hard to watch, I can't imagine what's going through her mind. And Brody chooses to murder someone while he's on the phone with Jess? Jeez.

This episode was a little slow, but next week should be great.

Edited by TWoP Lockley, Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:27 PM.


#2

Hallelujah

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:14 PM

I thought this episode was fantastic. I was on the edge of my seat most of the time.

But the suicide attempt was hard to watch, I can't imagine what's going through her mind.


ITA. But I think Claire Danes played it expertly; she continues to amaze me by how much she portrays wordlessly. I was practically (okay, seriously) begging Carrie to make herself throw up after she took all those pills. I'm glad she realized that there is life on the other side. She sure did seem lost for the entire episode, though. I hope this leads to some kind of growth where she realizes that the agency is not the be-all, end-all of life as she knows it. Her relationships, with Saul and her family, make her who she is more than her (former) job.

Other thoughts:

I was most enthralled with Carrie’s storyline, as usual. I find it incredibly ironic that she gets all dolled up to go out on the town and meet and sleep with strangers but she puts on a ring to project some sign of emotional detachment (she alluded to this generally in the Pilot). I feel like she resorts back to that routine when she doesn’t have anyone around her when she’s feeling the most lonely. We saw it in the Pilot after her brief falling out with Saul over the surveillance and now this when she realizes she can’t cope with an existence outside of the agency.

Kudos to Claire Danes in that final scene. Her facial expression when she saw the video – it was like this overwhelming peace just enrobed her, and you could see it in her eyes: yes, she was right about Brody.

Speaking of which, I don’t see how he can’t call himself a terrorist. I was talking with my sister earlier this week about whether he was a terrorist or not, especially since his definition seems to be rather carefully defined so as to rule himself out “technically.” Does he justify it to himself because thus far he’s only directly killed Tom Walker and now the Gettysburg bomb maker, both of whom were in on the terrorist plot to begin with?

I never thought Jess would actually kick Brody out of the house. I enjoy her much more this season when she has a bit of a backbone. Although the contrast between her just now discovering Brody’s feelings about his family not knowing who he was post-capture and him telling Carrie that in The Weekend seems telling. In the previews they seem to be setting up Carrie as Brody’s “Achilles heel” (love that motif in this show), and it’s so true. Their relationship and everything it entails will be his fatal flaw.

You could totally see the look on Mike’s face when he learned of Carrie and Brody’s weekend together, like he could now justify sleeping with Jess because Brody had been unfaithful, too.

Previews aren't spoilers, so no need for tags, thanks!--Lockley

Edited by TWoP Lockley, Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:32 PM.


#3

AnalogHeart

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:14 PM

Vindication is sweet for Carrie. That was so great of Saul. And Brody keeps falling deeper and deeper into a pile of shit.

#4

Brian C

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:15 PM

I thought I was watching Smash a few times with the people walking into a room at JUST the wrong time or Jess calling at JUST the wrong time.

But the ending made it all worth it. I can't wait for next week. Thank goodness Saul is not dead (yet).

#5

Oni

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:21 PM

In the previews they seem to be setting up Carrie as Brody’s “Achilles heel” (love that motif in this show), and it’s so true. Their relationship and everything it entails will be his fatal flaw.


Yeah the previews - Brody sees Carrie magically back at work, that's going to be really interesting.


Thank goodness Saul is not dead (yet).

More on the previews - I can't wait to hear what David says about everything because it showed that Saul tells him about the tape. And he mentions that they are the only ones who work at Langley that know about it. So I can't imagine Saul dying now he's not the only one who knows.

Commentary on previews are not spoilers, so no need for spoiler tags. Please do take major speculation to the appropriate threads though--Lockley

Edited by TWoP Lockley, Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:31 PM.


#6

MasalaCurry

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:23 PM

I kept thinking, isn't Brody too high-profile now to be doing such day-to-day work for Nazir? Seems incredibly careless of Nazir. I cannot believe he doesn't have anyone other than Brody to do this type of "menial" work, transferring a suspect from one location to another. Seems too careless and stupid. Now that Brody has set his sights on politics, he needs to be more careful about his whereabouts. And what about the cameras in the store? Wouldn't Brody's loud conversation be captured in it? Also, he took the suspect IN HIS OWN CAR!!! What is someone saw him or identified the car? That whole plot was very very weak. The last 5 minutes were the saving grace of the episode!

#7

Brian C

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:24 PM

It's interesting to note that in two of the three episodes, THE moment of the episode was Carrie smiling. Very cool.

#8

Oni

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:30 PM

I kept thinking, isn't Brody too high-profile now to be doing such day-to-day work for Nazir? Seems incredibly careless of Nazir. I cannot believe he doesn't have anyone other than Brody to do this type of "menial" work, transferring a suspect from one location to another. Seems too careless and stupid. Now that Brody has set his sights on politics, he needs to be more careful about his whereabouts. And what about the cameras in the store? Wouldn't Brody's loud conversation be captured in it? Also, he took the suspect IN HIS OWN CAR!!! What is someone saw him or identified the car? That whole plot was very very weak. The last 5 minutes were the saving grace of the episode!


We kind of don't know what's going on with Brody and the stuff he's having to do yet. Highly unlikely and I'm mainly joking but maybe Nazir was planning to kill both Brody and Besel (spelling?). Probably have to wait to find out what all that was about.

#9

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:32 PM

I cannot wait to see the game of cat and mouse where Carrie holds all the cards. Damien Lewis is fantastic, but I think I officially hate Brody now. What a weak, slimy little man. Intellectually, I know he's all kinds of fucked up in ways we can't imagine, but the look of total disgust on his face when he saw Jess walking into the house with Mike when he had just been out MURDERING SOMEONE TO FURTHER HIS TRAITOROUS AGENDA was kind of the last straw for me. How dare he judge her? Or anyone?

Carrie with full knowledge of Brody's agenda and the CIA having her back will be all kinds of fun to watch.

#10

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:35 PM

Can another Emmy just be handed to Claire Danes now? Damn. 3 episodes in and she's taken viewers on such a roller coaster of emotions as Carrie. She is one of the most realistic and fascinating protagonists I've ever watched. The end? So thrilled that she finally knows she was right all along. You could see the confidence just breathe back into her. Her instincts were dead on.

Jessica's speech felt a bit awkward/tmi but maybe it was meant to feel that way since she wasn't expecting to give it? I was just a bit taken aback that she was so forthcoming with the intimacy issues in front of the VP of the US. I don't love Jess but do enjoy her calling out Brody. This eppy really illustrated how deep the issues are still between Jessica and Brody. They still don't trust one another and it was so blatant this episode.

Brody is spiraling out of control. Cannot wait to see what next week has to bring.

Edited by Lilac4381, Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:38 PM.


#11

Hallelujah

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:36 PM

Carrie with full knowledge of Brody's agenda and the CIA having her back will be all kinds of fun to watch.


This got me wondering if seeing Brody's video and allusion to the 82 dead children and the VP's role in it all will, with her knowledge of the drone strikes and Nazir's tragedy in the "fallow yellow" period, finally get her to remember Issa. I can only hope.

#12

Purejinks

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:39 PM

Great episode. I hope we get to see Carrie back in action very soon. Idk why Brody didn't just hang up the phone!

OAN: I was kinda pissed Brody pulled up and stopped the night cap. However, I totally felt it coming.

#13

meohmyoh83

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:39 PM

I kept thinking, isn't Brody too high-profile now to be doing such day-to-day work for Nazir? Seems incredibly careless of Nazir. I cannot believe he doesn't have anyone other than Brody to do this type of "menial" work, transferring a suspect from one location to another.


Pretty true, but maybe Nazir doesn't have that many followers on the USA mainland. I could see Nazir also showing Brody that he is the one in control still by making him do menial tasks. He repeatedly breaks down Brody's life only to bring him back up to ensure his trust/loyalty.

How did Jessica know that Brody was sleeping with Carrie? Yea, he spent the weekend away, but he did he fill her in on everything?

#14

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:42 PM

This got me wondering if seeing Brody's video and allusion to the 82 dead children and the VP's role in it all will, with her knowledge of the drone strikes and Nazir's tragedy in the "fallow yellow" period, finally get her to remember Issa. I can only hope.


I'm kind of wondering how the whole "Issa" storyline will fit in now that the CIA knows that Carrie was right. Carrie didn't want to forget about "Issa" because it was additional evidence that Brody was turned. But now that they have definitive evidence, will Carrie suddenly remembering "Issa" be that relevant?

#15

Hallelujah

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:45 PM

I could see Nazir also showing Brody that he is the one in control still by making him do menial tasks. He repeatedly breaks down Brody's life only to bring him back up to ensure his trust/loyalty.


That was my interpretation, as well. I think Nazir wants to keep reminding Brody who's in charge. Maybe the reporter let it leak that his loyalty seemed to be wavering after their meetings together. Although, if sending a Mayday text to save your life isn't a show of devotion and loyalty, I'm not sure what is.

How did Jessica know that Brody was sleeping with Carrie? Yea, he spent the weekend away, but he did he fill her in on everything?



I've been wondering that, too, since as far as I can tell he never revealed anything to her. And she only saw them together when Carrie came to their house early in the morning to tell him that Tom Walker was alive. But Jess has made reference to their affair several times and he's never denied it, so maybe she's going on that.

#16

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:47 PM

We kind of don't know what's going on with Brody and the stuff he's having to do yet. Highly unlikely and I'm mainly joking but maybe Nazir was planning to kill both Brody and Besel (spelling?). Probably have to wait to find out what all that was about.


It doesn't make sense that Nazir would kill Brody, especially after he just proved useful by saving his skin just the previous episode. I really don't like Brody's taunting Jess and Mike, Brody has been anything but present, its always Mike that fills in. And Brody cheated on Jess, murdered someone, and has been lying to Jess all along. I don't consider Jess and Mike cheating, Jess thought Brody was dead and as soon as he was back she remained faithful. Brody's sleeping with Carrie while married was unacceptable. Jess is turning out to be very ambitious, but she got into this for Brody so why not enjoy it all! The poor woman has lived a lonely 8 years, she deserves some credit.

Somehow whenever Brody is physically intimate with Jess, I have an ick feeling. There is just something ick about his kissing her, I can't figure out why.

Am so so so glad Saul wasn't killed!! He brings a balance to the show. Carrie and Brody are extremes, the VP is corrupt, Saul brings about a balance that is necessary to keep the show grounded.

#17

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:49 PM

I'm assuming it was the mole, that tipped off the journalist working for Nazir, as to the CIA knowing the whereabouts of the bomb maker. I hope that mole won't be sitting in on the meetings about Brody :(

Claire Daines was awesome as usual. Loved that Saul did the bait and switch on the memory card. I really thought it was lost and that Carrie would not get her vindication. It was an amazing moment to see at the end of the episode!

#18

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:49 PM

I'm excited for the rest of the season, now that it looks like everyone will know by next week that Carrie was right, but tonight's episode felt really contrived. As has been mentioned, I don't understand why a well-organized terrorist group with multiple operatives in the U.S. is using a sitting congressman as an errand boy, nor do I understand why they don't have an emergency plan or a secret code word or something that could have reassured the tailor and avoided all the mistrust. I get that mistrust is probably an occupational hazard of being a terrorist, but why didn't they have any emergency plan in place? And I get that we're supposed to see that Brody is totally losing it, but did he really find it easier to snap a guy's neck than to hang up on Jess, or tell her the two truck was on the other line or something? I wonder if, since Brody's arc on the show may be limited (no spoilers, just speculation based on his downward spiral,) they are setting Jess up to be a politician by showing how easily she fits into that world.

I also didn't understand why the debriefing was happening while Saul was still on a plane to the U.S. Did the U.S. government not know that their other main field operative had left Beirut? How could he have left with no notice, and if he did notify them, why wouldn't they wait until he returned to do the briefing? Why was the physical chip so important? Why couldn't Saul back it up by saving it onto his laptop and encrypting it, if there was no secure wireless available to transmit it? Was it worth risking getting the chip destroyed to make sure that Carrie saw it first?

#19

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 10:57 PM

Somehow whenever Brody is physically intimate with Jess, I have an ick feeling. There is just something ick about his kissing her, I can't figure out why.

To me it's because he's playacting the role of 'husband'. I don't think he hates his wife but he definitely doesn't really feel the affection he portrays to her either. It's creepy and intentionally so, I believe.

#20

Hallelujah

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:02 PM

There is just something ick about his kissing her, I can't figure out why.


IMO it's how aggressive and detached he seems to be.

I also didn't understand why the debriefing was happening while Saul was still on a plane to the U.S. Did the U.S. government not know that their other main field operative had left Beirut? How could he have left with no notice, and if he did notify them, why wouldn't they wait until he returned to do the briefing? Why was the physical chip so important? Why couldn't Saul back it up by saving it onto his laptop and encrypting it, if there was no secure wireless available to transmit it? Was it worth risking getting the chip destroyed to make sure that Carrie saw it first?


I can let things like this slide, and to be honest I'd never even thought of them until you mentioned them. My reasoning is that Saul wanted to make as little noise about his departure from Beirut as possible. If he had told the agency that he was leaving there would have been inquiries and at that moment all he wanted to do was show Carrie the video.

As for the second part of your questions, it's been shown that Saul is no technology expert. He even asked Carrie to put the chip into her computer because he didn't want to screw it up. Seems a bit of a stretch that he'd all of a sudden be able to transfer the video from the chip to his computer and then encrypt it.

#21

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:14 PM

I'm assuming it was the mole, that tipped off the journalist working for Nazir, as to the CIA knowing the whereabouts of the bomb maker.

I'm confused about the Saul's memory card. Seems obvious that somebody tipped off lebanese TSA that Saul had a memory card they needed to get from him. They knew exactly what they were looking for and, having apparently found it, they let Saul go. So who tipped them off? If it was Nazir, how did he know that Saul had the card and, more importantly, hadn't made a backup? Seems like the mole had to be involved. Question: did Saul say that nobody at CIA had seen the video or that nobody at CIA even knew there was a memory card with a video?

And for what it's worth, I live about 20 miles from Culpepper and 29 is a pretty large-ish road. Hardly the 'middle of nowhere', and unlikely that you'd have much problem getting help with a flat. Clumsy lie there, Brody.

#22

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:22 PM

The fact that they knew Saul had the memory card means that they know that the CIA knows about Brody. So it seems Brody is now a threat to Nazir or at least expendable.

#23

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:25 PM

To me it's because he's playacting the role of 'husband'. I don't think he hates his wife but he definitely doesn't really feel the affection he portrays to her either. It's creepy and intentionally so, I believe.


I get mixed signals from him though. Yes he does seem terribly detached and does it more to oblige Jess. But when she insisted in this episode, he suddenly put her on the kitchen counter and started going at it passionately. I thought he was into it. Then she started guiding him and he follows. I found that to be very strange. However, when his daughter returned, it was clear that he had a boner, it was so so obvious so I thought he was really into it with Jess. Yet it feels as though he is just trying to live normally and go through the motions with Jess and his kids, and probably the rest of the world. What does he want to do in life? Will he keep doing Nazir's work? Why not let him die and be freed of being his mole? He seems to want stability at home badly, but is that for his political ambitions? I would really like to see what goes on in Brody's head. Reading Carrie and Saul is clear, but Brody is a tough nut to crack. I really hope Carrie is able to make him talk, it would be amazing since so far she is the only one.

#24

evalusion

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:32 PM

My reasoning is that Saul wanted to make as little noise about his departure from Beirut as possible. If he had told the agency that he was leaving there would have been inquiries and at that moment all he wanted to do was show Carrie the video.

As for the second part of your questions, it's been shown that Saul is no technology expert. He even asked Carrie to put the chip into her computer because he didn't want to screw it up. Seems a bit of a stretch that he'd all of a sudden be able to transfer the video from the chip to his computer and then encrypt it.


I get that's what the show wanted us to go with, but it just feels forced, and a lot of it feels unnecessary. I mean, Saul was the main U.S. field operative stationed in a country where they just pulled off an assassination attempt on Nazir, and did kill high-ranking operatives in both Nazir's group and Hezbollah, meaning it's a really sensitive time on the ground. He can't just up and leave without telling anyone or making arrangements. If he was supposed to be leaving anyway, because the operation had compromised his safety/anonymity, which would make total sense, then why would they not hold the debriefing for a few hours so that he could be there in person, since he's the actual CIA agent who was overseeing the mission and made the call to go forward? If they could only meet without Carrie because she wrote an 18 page report, how did they meet without Saul?

And maybe he wouldn't have been able to fully encrypt the chip, but given that it's periodically his job to handle sensitive evidence, I can't imagine no one's taught him to click save. I mean, it seems in this scenario that the risks of the evidence being destroyed before anyone saw it were greater than the risks of the evidence becoming public too soon, so it would make more sense for Saul to risk saving/transmitting the video without full encryption than trusting that the one chip would make it safely back to the U.S in his pocket.

#25

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:42 PM

Speaking of which, I don’t see how he can’t call himself a terrorist. I was talking with my sister earlier this week about whether he was a terrorist or not, especially since his definition seems to be rather carefully defined so as to rule himself out “technically.”

Brody wasn't going to blow himself up in a busy shopping mall in an attempt to spread terror amongst the general population, he was going to blow up a bunch of top brass in the US military and US government with very little "collateral damage" (assuming the reinforced safe room would have contained the blast). To him, this act would have been an entirely justifiable military strike at those who were involved in the planning and execution of the drone strike that killed Nazir's son and 81 other children. Asymmetric warfare, if you will, not terrorism.

#26

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:54 PM

As for the second part of your questions, it's been shown that Saul is no technology expert. He even asked Carrie to put the chip into her computer because he didn't want to screw it up. Seems a bit of a stretch that he'd all of a sudden be able to transfer the video from the chip to his computer and then encrypt it.


I just took it as Saul joking around. Saul plays be benevolent papa to Carrie's neurotic daughter, so I just saw that comment as an extension of the joke. I'm glad they didn't drag out Carrie's vindication all season, she earned that.

I take Nazir's keeping Brody on scut work as a way to make sure he doesn't start thinking he has a chance to get out of it. It's possible that Brody could leverage his "American hero" persona to convince everyone that he was truly brainwashed into becoming a terrorist, fearful of his family being murdered, etc, etc. What better way to make that option go away than to send him on mission that are meant to be simple, but extremely incriminating? Being in a position where Brody had to kill the guy is just a bonus. With each task Nazir makes him do (stealing documents, escorting bomb-jacket manufacturers), Brody is 100% solidifying himself as a methodical agent of the enemy.

I don't know what it is, but I really can't feel sympathy for Brody's wife, even though Morena Baccarin is working really hard. I would probably laugh at her reaction to finding out her political meal ticket is a terrorist. I would mostly feel sorry for the daughter, she's probably the only one who would really understand why he did what he did.

#27

tacitus

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:55 PM

As for the second part of your questions, it's been shown that Saul is no technology expert. He even asked Carrie to put the chip into her computer because he didn't want to screw it up. Seems a bit of a stretch that he'd all of a sudden be able to transfer the video from the chip to his computer and then encrypt it.

Well, he knew enough to make a copy, assuming that he would have wanted anyone who found the SD card on him to believe they had the one with the video on it.

But it was all a bit silly all around really. Why would the man searching the briefcase assume they had the one and only copy? And in any case, even in a place like Beirut, the CIA would likely have a secure VPN connection for the transmission of top secret intelligence and they would never risk shipping something as key as that video on physical media alone -- what if the plane went down? The only reasonable explanation would be if Saul wanted to keep the video out of the hands of the mole, so couldn't risk transferring it electronically. I guess we'll know next week if that was the case (no trailer spoilers please!)

But all that said, the only thing that really irked me (channeling my inner geek) was the fact that the "micro SD card" they've been using in the show is not actually a micro SD card, which is much smaller than that (and much easier to hide too). They've been using a micro SD card adapter, probably because it says "micro SD" on it. I get why they did that--microSD cards are tiny and probably don't show up well on film, but it irks me all the same!

Edited by tacitus, Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:56 PM.


#28

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 11:58 PM

Yay! I was hoping they wouldn't wait till the next ep to vindicate Carrie. While it was awesome that she got the news on the same day she attempted suicide, it was too obvious that she would upchuck the pills (as opposed to someone else saving her life) so that part wasn't very dramatic for me. And I laughed when Magic Mike thought he'd get away with a nightcap. Heh. I'm really enjoying season 2 so far, but I'm noticing that every ep will have one major element that seems totally ridiculous, and that wasn't the case last season. This time it was Brody being called to transport the bombmaker. That was more than a reach.

Question: did Saul say that nobody at CIA had seen the video or that nobody at CIA even knew there was a memory card with a video?

I think he did say that, which left me wondering what intel Estes was referring to when he told Carrie that they found something.

#29

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Posted Oct 15, 2012 @ 12:27 AM

If it was Nazir, how did he know that Saul had the card and, more importantly, hadn't made a backup?


I think Nazir knew the SD card was gone when they couldn't find the bag that guy's apartment. I do think it's strange that the Hezbollah operative only assumed there was one copy. Maybe Nazir just wanted to confirm that Saul actually had the card rather than assuming. Knowing for sure that Saul has the card might change his plans for Brody. If Nazir can't contain the information, then he needs to figure how to respond to it. That would explain to me why Saul wasn't searched more thoroughly. It almost felt like a farce. (Or maybe just really bad writing? ...I'm going with my version!).

I wasn't expecting Brody to be exposed so quickly! Awesome. And now you have three good CIA minds on the case. Of course they want to figure out the larger picture and find all the cells, so they aren't going to expose him too quickly. Love it.

I found the whole killing in the woods a bit unsettling. He's just unraveling while Carrie is getting her shit together. It's satisfying, but I do hope Brody bucks up a bit more. I need him to be a compelling anti-hero, not a pathetic one.

I think he did say that, which left me wondering what intel Estes was referring to when he told Carrie that they found something.


The suicide bomb building tailor was some of that Intel, I assume, given the rest of the show's plot. So that's "actionable information".

Edited by jeansheridan, Oct 15, 2012 @ 12:27 AM.


#30

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Posted Oct 15, 2012 @ 12:30 AM

Estes could have said that to make her feel better, he seemed to feel sympathy for her, or she actually pulled up something bigger.

Numb, I'm totally seeing the trend and I know why its happening. The writers don't have any good way of making Brody be Nazir's B without these elements. Brody is not valuable to the US at all...he has nothing on Nazir; however, Nazir, has everything on Brody. Brody is too valuable to actually be used in the way he is right now. Everything he has done could've been handled by others.
It seems they've thrown the whole CIA mole thing right now to make Brody be a convenient puppet. Jessica is way different than she used to be, she likes her new life...with the exception of Brody. I was happy for her character in this episode since she really came out of her situation rather well. I just don't like this harsh hidden thing she does when it comes to Brody.
Overall this episode was okay but the writing seems to be getting more sloppy.