Jump to content

Elementary: The Case of the Englishman in New York


  • Please log in to reply

4769 replies to this topic

#31

physical eye

physical eye

    Channel Surfer

Posted May 18, 2012 @ 10:43 PM

halo_pub, I don't know whether it takes place in Astoria (my guess is it takes place all around NYC), but part of the pilot was filmed on my block in Astoria. I think the proximity to the Silvercup and Kaufman Astoria studios make it convenient.
  • 0

#32

shapeshifter

shapeshifter

    Fanatic

Posted May 19, 2012 @ 12:50 AM

Jonny Lee Miller takes his acting roles very seriously and since he found this worth his time I am going to join him for the ride.

I really liked him in Eli Stone, so I'll give it a chance.
  • 0

#33

Cress

Cress

    Stalker

Posted May 19, 2012 @ 1:18 AM

The great BBC series with Jeremy Brett.


It wasn't made by the BBC. It was Granada Television. The BBC did do a couple of Holmes series in the 1960s starring Douglas Wilmer, and then Peter Cushing.

So there will be 22 more murders in New York this year. Can we please move on to something else than murder?


I wholeheartedly agree. Many of the cases in the original Holmes stories are not murders. Sometimes they're not even crimes. I would vastly love to see Holmes investigating an interesting case that isn't a murder.
  • 0

#34

Princess Lucky

Princess Lucky

    Fanatic

Posted May 19, 2012 @ 9:16 AM

I would vastly love to see Holmes investigating an interesting case that isn't a murder.

Agreed. Reading the premise, at least Aidan Quinn's character is a police Captain, not a homicide detective, so there's hope Holmes will be called to investigate other cases as well. I also hope Holmes won't just be a Mentalist-style police consultant exclusively, he and Watson should handle their own cases as well. So there could be some variety at least.
  • 0

#35

Cress

Cress

    Stalker

Posted May 19, 2012 @ 6:12 PM

So maybe Captain Gregson refers Holmes to various cases with individual NYPD detectives working them (the trailer focused on one detective in particular), but it's different every time? That would be more like the stories, because Lestrade wasn't in every story. There were other inspectors like Gregson himself, Bradstreet, Hopkins, etc. It would also be nice if they sometimes left New York to go to surrounding suburbs or states. Some of Holmes's cases took place in the countryside. That would give more variety too.
  • 0

#36

halo_pub

halo_pub

    Couch Potato

Posted May 20, 2012 @ 10:56 PM

I don't know whether it takes place in Astoria (my guess is it takes place all around NYC), but part of the pilot was filmed on my block in Astoria. I think the proximity to the Silvercup and Kaufman Astoria studios make it convenient.



Thanks Physical Eye. I wondered because Miller mentioned Astoria specifically when talking about the show in the preview video but all the casting news prior to the pilot endlessly touted Brooklyn as the big scene change. It probably doesn't sound like much to folks who don't know New York, but neighborhoods within the different boroughs can have very distinct vibes and it'd be fun to see the Queens area become a character in the show. But I suspect it really is just that the two studios are there and so many NYC shows use them as their base.
  • 0

#37

Comsimplex

Comsimplex

    Video Archivist

Posted May 20, 2012 @ 11:09 PM

Sorry, but I find this version to be a cheat. When talks with Moffatt broke down, CBS decided to just do this show, with the '80's female Watson twist. Not planning to watch.
  • 1

#38

insanityproject

insanityproject

    Fanatic

Posted May 20, 2012 @ 11:39 PM

I don't think anyone owns Sherlock, not even the idea of making it modern. As long as Elementary doesn't rip off particular inventions of the Moffat series than there's no problem. Sherlock Holmes is one of the most popular characters in the public domain. There are always going to be new takes on the story just as there are countless Hamlets, Pride & Prejudices, Snow Whites, etc.

I am very curious about how/if Elementary will work. My impression of Holmes (via the books) was that the character was somewhat sexist. Will that be true for this version? How would work with a female Watson? Will this Watson (like book Watson) be a veteran of Afghanistan? Is this going to be a very loose take on the Holmes or will they draw heavily on the stories? It's 22 eps a year so there has to be a fair amount of new material but I think the show also has to appeal to fans of the books themselves, too. I'm keeping an open mind, certainly hope it does well, and I think Miller & Liu are great actors but I can also see how this can go easily wrong.
  • 0

#39

Cress

Cress

    Stalker

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 12:45 AM

Yes I agree that Moffat & Gatiss only own their particular characters (Anthea, Molly, Anderson, Donovan, etc.) and their unique details (text on screen, mind palace, etc.) Even then, they're not totally original because they've stolen the thin Mycroft with a hostile relationship with Sherlock from the movie The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes. Someone ought to sue them for that, if they're going to keep railing against Elementary.

My impression of Holmes (via the books) was that the character was somewhat sexist. Will that be true for this version? How would work with a female Watson? Will this Watson (like book Watson) be a veteran of Afghanistan?


According to the descriptions of the show released by CBS, Joan Watson is a "sober companion", basically a sobriety coach to keep Holmes in check after his stint in rehab. The backstory mentions that she used to have medical license but lost it after losing a patient. It doesn't mention any military background for her. Of course they could change their mind and surprise us.

Yeah, Holmes is sexist in the stories, but can occasionally come to respect a smart woman (such as Violet Hunter in "The Copper Beeches" or Irene Adler). I suspect that he'll be initially dismissive of her but learn to work with her out of necessity. I've seen the Holmes/female partner dynamic before in the aforementioned Margaret Colin movie as well as the Sherlock in the 22nd Century cartoon, where Holmes has to reluctantly work with the female Inspector Beth Lestrade. He starts off old-fashioned and unwilling to take orders, but eventually learns to cooperate. So that might be what they do in CBS's show.
  • 0

#40

Alexandria Bay

Alexandria Bay

    Stalker

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 5:41 AM

They Might Be Giants had a female Watson who was Holmes's psychiatrist. Actually, George C. Scott thought he Holmes and she was trying to cure him. I only saw it once and it was a long time ago but I think the ending was open to interpretation.
  • 0

#41

hlisy

hlisy

    Fanatic

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 7:00 AM

Female Watsons are nothing new there's been a slew of shows dealing with this. I'd love to see Holmes be the brains and Watson be the brawn with her karate. I don't think they'll make Holmesvroo sexist as CBS is quite the PC network. I'll watch and hope that it wont be too bad.
  • 0

#42

clemmari

clemmari

    Channel Surfer

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 7:08 AM

I loved They Might Be Giants. (I saw it a long time ago too.) George C. Scott and Joanne Woodward were great.

I don't know what I think of Elementsry, it does though look, from the trailer, more like another police procedural than anything else.

(Moffatt and Gatiss should shut up about this, Moffatt is a child.)
  • 0

#43

insanityproject

insanityproject

    Fanatic

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 7:59 AM

Well I do think Moffat has a right to make sure CBS doesn't crib any of his particular innovations but I do think that Moffat has to also realize that all his (wonderful) series did was remind execs is that there's a great character (s) in the public domain they could use. I don't know the story behind Moffat and CBS but there's no way CBS could do 22 eps a year if they just copied Moffat's version. CBS must come up with their own innovations to make it work. For all we know, they might not use any of the book mysteries at all and this might be an extremely loose adaptation (which I personally would not like). We won't be able to see if Moffat had a valid complaint until after the series premieres.
  • 0

#44

caseylane

caseylane

    Fanatic

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 8:55 AM

Like most new shows that grab my interest, I'll give it 3 episodes. Pilots are often kind of weak because they spend so much time setting things up. Unless it's horrible. In that case I reserve the option of dumping it right away.

Still, it seems to have enough talent on board that it should be interesting at least.
  • 0

#45

Princess Aldrea

Princess Aldrea

    Stalker

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 11:48 AM

My impression of Holmes (via the books) was that the character was somewhat sexist.

He also lived in the nineteenth century. Was he really that sexist by the standards of his time? If not then there's no need to make him still sexist today.
  • 0

#46

Cress

Cress

    Stalker

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 2:04 PM

Well Holmes does say that "Women are never to be entirely trusted--not the best of them" in Sign of Four, and Watson thinks that is an "atrocious sentiment" even though he doesn't bother to argue about it. So Holmes's attitude to women is different than the general sexism of Victorians. This doesn't necessarily have to translate to him thinking that present day women are stupid or don't have rights to work, vote, etc. They might just make him somebody who objects to authority figures in general, regardless of gender.
  • 0

#47

insanityproject

insanityproject

    Fanatic

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 2:43 PM

Cress, that's what I was getting at in a way. I don't know how Sherlock's sexism compares to other Victorians but it did seem that neither Watson nor by extension Doyle shared that sentiment.

I read in the news today Guiness World Records says Sherlock Holmes is the most portrayed character on film an tv, even more than Hamlet! I know Holmes was popular but had no idea he had been portrayed more than Hamlet. Amazing! There's room enough for all of them I guess.
  • 0

#48

Cress

Cress

    Stalker

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 4:52 PM

I was thinking about what they'll do for 22 episodes, and I hope they won't feature Moriarty in many of them. There can be hints, but I really don't need to see him constantly referenced or hanging over the show like Jim was in BBC's Sherlock, or how Red John is in the Mentalist. In the Jeremy Brett series, Moriarty was added into the case just before the Final Problem, but after those episodes, that was it. There was no suggestion that Moriarty was behind every criminal case Holmes ever solved, or hounding him out of personal obsession. Moriarty only wanted to kill Holmes when Holmes interfered in his business.

I would like Elementary to use Moriarty sparingly and not as a constant bogeyman. I would like other villains to get the chance to shine, like Milverton, Stapleton, John Clay, and Grimesby Roylott. (If they don't use those characters, I hope there will be interesting equivalents.) There was a 1950s TV series starring Ronald Howard as Holmes, and there was never any Moriarty in it, for 39 episodes, nor was he in the 1960s BBC Holmes series with Douglas Wilmer and later Peter Cushing.

Also, I liked the Ronald Howard series even though they did very few adaptations from the stories. Mostly they made up their own original cases, and many were good. I hope Elementary can do similarly, if they're not going to do straight adaptations.

Edited by Cress, May 21, 2012 @ 4:57 PM.

  • 0

#49

hlisy

hlisy

    Fanatic

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 5:05 PM

I have my doubts that they're even goiung to use the stories. More likely, they will write new stories, after all murder was only used in about half of Holmes stories. As for Moriarty, I think they'll have a nemesis as every TV detective seems to have one, but that it will only be one or two episodes a season, if they're not canceled. I do think it's novel having him riding the subway as Holmes never used the Tube but some of his deductions seemed a bit too simplistic. And I've never seen so much plaid in one scene. I think I can't judge until the entire pilot is released. Sine it's 21 episodes instead of 3, I'm not expecting BBC like quality, judging hoping I won't want to change the channel midway through.
  • 0

#50

hertolo

hertolo

    Video Archivist

Posted May 21, 2012 @ 5:14 PM

Hamlet is like much of Shakespeare a very Anglo-Saxon phenomenon, so it's not surprising that it isn't that famous. We never did read it in school or anything. Shakespeare is just what Faust (Goethe) is for the Germans or Moliere for the French (ok, that last one may be a bit sketchy). I hope I don't shatter anyones Anglo-Centrism, but Shakespeare... eh.

Holmes on the other hand is the prototype for the modern detective I'd say. And Crime (Procedurals) are by far the most consistently popular type of tv, not? So it doesn't surprise me that he or adaptions of him are popular. I guess it depends if you include "inspired by" as well.

So that's my stance, if "elementary" is run-of-the-mill crime procedural, I will not watch it. If it does its "cases" in a special way, I will probably watch it.

Edited by hertolo, May 21, 2012 @ 5:15 PM.

  • 0

#51

calais

calais

    Video Archivist

Posted May 22, 2012 @ 4:21 PM

Oh, just found this thread, as someone linked to it on BBC Sherlock :)

I share most of the sentiments that people have mentioned here so far, such as this looking a lot like a run of the mill CBS procedural. I also think that casting Watson as a woman in this incarnation is far less groundbreaking than some people want to think, because as others have pointed out "The Watson" role as been filled by women in a million incarnations of crime-fighting duos, all pretty much owing their existence to Holmes and Watson in the first place (from Dana Scully to Alexandra Eames on L&O: CI to that brunette on the Mentalist). And The Watson is of course the prototype of the supporting role, the caretaker, the water-carrier, etc. So yes: Lucy Liu even *looks* like what I imagine a female Sherlock would look like. I personally would have loved another all female crime-fighting team which I don't think I've seen since Cagney and Lacey! In any case, I hope at least that Joan is given a lot more to do than look up at Holmes in amazement and say "but how did you know THAT??" and if she is, the show might be good.

I think what will determine for me whether it's a legitimate adaptation of Sherlock Holmes rather than just another procedural in the style of... is whether they incorporate ACD canon stories or not. If the stories are all new (besides some requisite Moriarty arc which plays out just like any other arch villain like Red John or Nicole Wallace), I won't see how this is an 'adaptation' any more than all these other shows are; but if they actually make a point of staying close to canon mysteries, twisting them here or there in order to modernise them or surprise the viewer, then it could certainly have potential.
  • 0

#52

Princess Aldrea

Princess Aldrea

    Stalker

Posted May 22, 2012 @ 4:36 PM

Sherlock Holmes is also easier to understand than Shakespeare's 400-year-old English.
  • 0

#53

Ess Cee

Ess Cee

    Loyal Viewer

Posted May 22, 2012 @ 4:39 PM

I also think that casting Watson as a woman in this incarnation is far less groundbreaking than some people want to think, because as others have pointed out "The Watson" role as been filled by women in a million incarnations of crime-fighting duos, all pretty much owing their existence to Holmes and Watson in the first place (from Dana Scully to Alexandra Eames on L&O: CI to that brunette on the Mentalist).



calais, exactly. Sensible female care-takers of prickly, brilliant crimesolvers is in no way a new (ir interesting, IMO) dynamic. Making 'the Watson' a literal Dr. Watson doesn't change that.

Making Watson a 'Joan' doesn't bug me. Making her a sober coach bugs me.

ETA: I feel the need to babble more about this. The sober coach idea bothers me because, instead of Holmes and Watson being legit friends, one of them is being paid to babysit the other. Blech.

Edited by Ess Cee, May 22, 2012 @ 4:44 PM.

  • 0

#54

Princess Aldrea

Princess Aldrea

    Stalker

Posted May 22, 2012 @ 4:57 PM

Well, chances are that no amount of money would make it worth it for Watson to babysit Holmes if she didn't genuinely like him.
  • 0

#55

insanityproject

insanityproject

    Fanatic

Posted May 22, 2012 @ 5:18 PM

Canon!Watson does wean Holmes off of drugs and Canon!Watson chooses to live with Holmes in the first place because it's more economical to have a roommate. So a sober coach paid to leave with Holmes is a fairly decent updating. And like Princess Aldrea says money cannot be the reason Watson stays. Holmes is a wonderful character to read about (or watch) but he is certainly not ideal roommate material.
  • 0

#56

hlisy

hlisy

    Fanatic

Posted May 22, 2012 @ 5:18 PM

I just hope this whole addiction storyline doesn't overshadow the mysteries and quirkiness. Usually addiction on US Telly=very special episodes. And Watson quitting medicine after patient death. That's going to be the subject of another episode.

I didn't see chemistry between the two leads but perhaps they'll pull a Mulder/Scully and we'll be talking about what a great team they make. I'd love for this show to work but I remain skeptical.
  • 0

#57

Dallas Fan

Dallas Fan

    Fanatic

Posted May 23, 2012 @ 5:47 PM

My take on this show is that it sounds interesting, only has nothing to do with Sherlock Holmes. One of those "write your own story then" situations.
  • 0

#58

AimingforYoko

AimingforYoko

    Stalker

Posted May 25, 2012 @ 9:47 PM

Full trailer.
  • 0

#59

Cress

Cress

    Stalker

Posted May 25, 2012 @ 10:21 PM

Why are their clothes so wacky? Both Watson and Holmes seem to wear weird stuff. Glad for more clips, though.
  • 0

#60

TheSporkWielder

TheSporkWielder

    Fanatic

Posted May 26, 2012 @ 12:03 AM

Okay, this looks more interesting. And this Sherlock is definitely more emotional than Cumberbatch!Holmes, which is good. The fewer similarities between "Elementary" and "Sherlock," the better. I'm more convinced that I'll tune in for at least the first few episodes.
  • 0