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2-6: "The Old Gods and the New" 2012.05.06


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#271

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 10:20 PM

Although I'm sure in the long Targareyn reign one of them was bound to be an idiot, wasn't the general consensus that at the end of the day Robert Baratheon was kind of an idiot and a pretty bad king who didn't really know what he was doing? Not a blubbering moron like his "son" or anything, but just not exceptionally competent - bankrupting the kingdom, concentrating on feasts and tourneys and whores, surrounding himself with sycophants, etc. At heart, Robert wasn't an evil or vicious man, but he was a pretty shitty king.

That's what it seems like. Honestly, there wouldn't be so many Lannisters in high positions in the kingdom if Robert wasn't so incompetent. I remember him actually commenting on this briefly before his death. He was a great fighter, and he seemed like a fun guy in his youth, but getting down to business? Ruling like Stannis and Robb seem ready to do? Not so much.

I don't know how clear that was to the smallfolk looking on, but considering how people talk, there was probably at least an inkling that Robert wasn't the best king.

Alfie Allen is a boss. Theon can DIAF. Guess the Greatjon was right, the meat in Winterfell is bloody tough. Way to let him have it on the way out, Ser Cassel. I understand and hear all the things that have been said about how Theon's at heart a tragic character, but I also agree that that's as far as it goes. You mourn what he could have been, but there's no way to endorse what he is. Where's the guy who promised Robb his sword from this day until his last day?

Emilia Clarke is a boss. Dany needs a time out or something, lol. She's a Targaryen through and through at this point, but it seems like she could be better than that. Still, seeing her now gives a greater understanding of Viserys. We've seen people talking down to her, snickering at her and such, and you get the feeling that Viserys got that pretty much all the time, from what we saw of him. I sure hope we're not going to get a "That was all I wanted" moment with Dany down the road, that was hard enough to watch with a guy I hated.

Oh, Snow. Oh you. SMH. This will not end well. Although with the moves Ygritte was pulling, if I was a teenager who had taken a celibacy vow it'd be hard for me to remember the smart or right thing to do too. Quorin was totally testing him, and he gets an F, as he is wont to do.

Speaking of wildling women, Osha. Man, the clubs up in the North must be something else. I loved how Theon was so flustered in the scene but was totally trying to play it cool.

Robb/Talisa doesn't bug me as much as it could, I guess because Cat broke that up with a quickness. And Robb's awesome otherwise, such as when he was promising to give all the fans a love letter in the form of Theon's head, without the pesky burden of his body along with it.

dizzyd, I noted how deliberately Tywin said "girl" in front of Littlefinger. On the other hand, he's definitely the most heroic character with influence right now, which...is a sad, sad commentary on Westeros.

Edited by DigiKing, May 7, 2012 @ 10:23 PM.


#272

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 10:45 PM

I think Tywin's story about being a present and nurturing dad and Jaime's dyslexia is fake and just a ruse to gain Arya's trust by appealing to her humanity. From what we've seen of him and his kids fear of him, he is too practical, intelligent and perceptive to put his feelings before his sensibilities. ... I think Tywin is just playing her simply because she amuses him and he enjoys the game. After all, cats love to play with their food and toys and a lion is just a big ruthless cat.


Tywin is about the least likely person in all of Westeros to engage in that kind of nonsense. If he knows who Arya is, he's going to take control of the situation and secure her, not play games with her and let her run around the castle unmonitored.

#273

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 10:58 PM

I'm just wondering how Theon intends to get out of this or if that hasn't crossed his mind. Ser Roderick's men are probably in the Square to secure it since I doubt a force of a hundred could've been wiped out by Theon's force which is half its size. And seeing as how the Square is probably a coastal town that's likely where the Sea Bitch is and if not it would probably be nearby. If Roderick's men find it the Ironborn can kiss their means of escape goodbye. Then there is Roose Balton's son with an additional 200 men and if he's anything like his Dad he's probably a merciless bastard who will be bearing down on Greyjoy and probably wouldn't care if he killed hostages as long as they aren't Starks. Theon won't be able to hold onto Winterfell and the Square will be blocked too unless he thinks his sister will show up with relief forces, but I don't see that happening. I'm not sure if Maester Luwin sent out a raven as he requested, but even if he did Yara might see him as a potential rival and would prefer to sacrifice him and his measly troops. She doesn't get anything out of helping Theon, but if she leaves him to swing in the wind her father will just blame him for disobeying orders and leading a fruitless attack.

I hate to say it, but that prick might've done the Starks a favor since they now know what the Greyjoys are up to and can prepare against Yara's fleet of 30 ships.

#274

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 11:49 PM

I believe his plan is to have his sister send reinforcements, 500 men he said. That'd be more than enough to hold the castle against anything but a major force I would think. Especially since the northerners only know that he attacked with a skeleton crew.

#275

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 12:05 AM

We really need a spin-off set in Harrenhal. It would mainly consist of Tywin bonding with Arya over how incompetent everyone else is, and a man killing people in amusing ways. (Tywin's annoyed expression when Amory Loch falls down dead is priceless). I imagine by the end Arya is his chief general and very confused about how she got there. In case that would be too awesome to put on TV, we could intersperse it with Theon finding new and exciting ways to be a complete fuckup.

Just felt this needed quoting for sheer awesomeness. Also, I just rewatched the Winterfell scene and I really needed a laugh.

#276

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 2:27 AM

The taking of Winterfell was as awful onscreen as in the books. Poor Ser Rodrick. Add me to those who, after a rewatch, think Littlefinger knew who Arya was.

I think Tywin's story about being a present and nurturing dad and Jaime's dyslexia is fake and just a ruse to gain Arya's trust by appealing to her humanity....I think Tywin is just playing her simply because she amuses him and he enjoys the game. After all, cats love to play with their food and toys and a lion is just a big ruthless cat.

Actually, I think male lions just wait for the lionesses to do the hunting and bring the kill home. But why would Tywin need Arya's trust? If he knew who she was, he'd clap her in irons and trade her for Jamie in a heartbeat. He's in the middle of a long, risky war with that damn winter right around the corner. Even if he wins, the realm can't eat his gold if the various armies can't get home in time to plant/harvest. Toying with children seems a waste of his time and resources when so much more is at stake. I confess Daenerys is starting to annoy me, mostly because at my core the whole notion of "rightful" kingship just chafes. But even if she had an army it doesn't seem like the middle of a civil war is the best time to show up an assert your claim. People would be as likely to snarl "get in line" as to support her.

Is it normal that Robb didn't ask his mother who that huge woman is, who is following her?

Well, he was used to Hodor being around all the time so maybe extra-tall doesn't strike him as that odd?

#277

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 3:04 AM

I think Tywin's story about being a present and nurturing dad and Jaime's dyslexia is fake and just a ruse to gain Arya's trust by appealing to her humanity


I don't think it was fake, in the sense that Tywin made it up. I think that's how he sees himself. And I think he thinks he taught Jamie to read. That doesn't mean Jamie remembers things the same way.

#278

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 3:21 AM

Well, he was used to Hodor being around all the time so maybe extra-tall doesn't strike him as that odd?


It came out wrong. She is the bodyguard of her mother, and Robb has never seen her, so i thought that he would be curious who that woman he doesn't know and follows her mother is.
I get that it would be boring to show a conversation on tv like "who is she?", "my new bodyguard", "hmm, ok", but i thought it was strange that he didn't wonder...

#279

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 3:32 AM

I guess I could see how a sworn brother of the Night's Watch would see it that way because of the celibacy vows/oath,

And that's what matters, since what works on one person doesn't necessarily work on another.

but I don't share the opinion.

Why not? Not obvious enough? Not fast enough?

Edited by mrhooks, May 8, 2012 @ 3:33 AM.


#280

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 4:57 AM

And poor Sansa. Being in King's Landing is definitely hazardous to her health. Lucky for her the Hound has her back yet again. And dumbass Cersei...that could easily could have been Myrcella instead of Sansa. She's lucky that she was sent the hell out of Dodge before the whole thing went down. But I don't imagine that she'll see that.


This is such a good point! It could have been Myrcella. And it could have ended a lot worse for the poor girl. Good thing the Hound was there, and felt like rescuing Sansa.

I thought Tyrion's concern for Sansa was very real. I think he only brought up her value as a hostage because he had to convince his psychopathic nephew that he had something at stake here. Joffrey wasn't going to be motivated by "she's your fiance," or any of that--he only cares about himself.

But Tyrion, Tywin, and Cersei are the ones who care about getting Jaime back, not Joffrey. For Joffrey, Jaime's just a big embarrassment. I'm sure he'd prefer it if nobody ever saw them side by side, (where they could compare faces,) ever again.

Is it normal that Robb didn't ask his mother who that huge woman is, who is following her?


It was very weird and artificial that he didn't comment at all about her. The writers obviously thought it would be boring and repetitious to have yet another conversation about who Brienne of Tarth is, so they just left it.

It occurred to me that it's possible that being traded for Jaime would get Arya back to her mother and brother, which she wants. So it's ironic that she's working so hard to conceal her identity.

All of the child actors really hit it out of the park this episode. Brilliantly acted. I cried for Bran, the dragons, Roderic, and Sansa. And it bears saying again that Arya and Tywin's scene was gripping.

For some reason my mind kept wandering during the scenes with Jon Snow and the ones with Danaerys...I kept having to rewind, despite good performances by all of these actors. I guess you can't be on the edge of your chair the whole episode--perhaps we were meant to rest during those scenes. The non-execution of Ygritte seemed awfully drawn out and repetitive, possibly because it was juxtaposed with all these scenes in which people really meant business.

Theon is breaking my heart. He swore to be Robb's brother, and destroyed that bond for some people who don't care if he lives or dies. Alfie Allen is an incredible actor. He made it so believable, and made every thought visible in his eyes. That said, I'm still glad Robb said, "no talking." Theon deserves to die for his betrayal. Nobody forced him to swear loyalty to Robb.

#281

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 6:22 AM

After second rewatch I am going to retract what I said about Littlefinger earlier. I think he did recognize Arya. Or at the very least strongly suspects that's who she is.

And the baby dragons definitely sounded like baby children crying mixed in with the sound. Creepy and very effective.

I also noticed that Shaggydog looked smaller than Summer. Could have been a trick of perspective but I don't think either of the two younger boys wolves looked to be the same size as Robb or Jon's. Interesting.

#282

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 6:53 AM

Holy hell. I did not expect this, and I have read the books. When one looks up the term 'Douchebag' in an encyclopedia (or Wikipedia, since the times are changing and all), Theon should be there.

My favorite part was Arya and her urgent request. A Man was starting his "A Man needs to speak slowly and in quizzical terms"-speech, but Arya was like "Cut that crap, kill him NOW!". The eyeroll was priceless.

Loved Ygritte! She looks a lot like how I imagined her. Also loved the non-CGI direwolves.

#283

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 7:01 AM

Completely random observation: As horrific as the opening scenes were - nothing creeped me out more than the current (male?) fashion of Quarth. I kept staring at all those horrific bug adornments on their clothes. I hadn't noticed those before and was completely distracted. I can't imagine wearing something like that, every time I happened to look on my shoulder a fight-and-flight response would set in before I remembered that they're fake. And any guy trying to make advances on me covered in giant creepy crawlers would be in big trouble, urgh! If Daenerys gets her babies back she should train them to blaze those critters to ashes!

#284

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 8:04 AM

I dont think Danny is like Viseris. Beside being spoiled brat to anyone including his little sister he had nothing to support his claim. Danny is fireproof and has the only three living dragon-babies on Earth. She has a right to feel special and believe she is destined for more than marry Zaxo and have his babies. Does she acts delusional or stupid sometime? Sure, but its not like being all humble and modest would make any difference. And her blood and fire speach already saved her life once, why dont try it again.

#285

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 8:13 AM

In the preview, was Jaime with Gendry?

No. I believe that was the cousin who was sent to King's Landing with Robb's peace terms.

#286

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 8:49 AM

Theon is a shit but, I'm loving Alfie.


I'm probably alone in this but I'm absolutely hating Alfie Allen's performance. Maybe it's the perpetually whiny tone in his voice, or his propensity to shout all his lines like he's just on the edge of hysteria, but it's driving me crazy. Then again, I thought Theon was a putz in the books up until the point where I completely loathed the little shit (about the same point as last night's episode), so maybe he's doing something right after all. Still find his voice unbearably whiny though.

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If she really wanted a position of power then I think she would've seduced him instead, so I guess she smiled because even Jon himself tends to forget he's kinda cute sorrounded by his brothers all the time. Hence the "you're brave, but stupid".

Where I come from, grinding against some guy's junk is a seduction...

I guess I could see how a sworn brother of the Night's Watch would see it that way because of the celibacy vows/oath, but I don't share the opinion.


I think the average drunk guy in a bar on Saturday night would definitely see it as a come on, and more than a couple of non-drunk ones as well. I took the whole wriggling to "get comfortable" as an attempt to get Jon interested, and distracted.

I think Tywin's story about being a present and nurturing dad and Jaime's dyslexia is fake and just a ruse to gain Arya's trust by appealing to her humanity. From what we've seen of him and his kids fear of him, he is too practical, intelligent and perceptive to put his feelings before his sensibilities.


Even if it was true, I don't see it as Tywin helping Jaime but as him fixing something non-perfect and embarrassing about one of his kids. I doubt any of his tutoring sessions would've been anything less than frightening. Would you really want to fail THAT man?

#287

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 8:49 AM

[quote]I wondered how long before someone stole those dragons, I wonder if it's that guy who wouldn't give her the ships? I must say though that I am getting a bit tired of the "I am Danaerys Stormborn yada yada yada." She should wait until her dragons are a bit bigger. Also she is in for a big surprise if she feels the people of Westeros are eagerly awaiting her return.

[quote]I'm surprised she held onto the dragons this long. To me, Dany is the most tedious character in the show.

So agree! Dany was my favorite and most compelling character last season and now she's just lost her way. Not being a real Khalissi to her people (and now she has way fewer!) and she's waiting for somebody to give her what she needs just because of her name - she's not negotiating or strategizing. Where was Ser Jorah - I love him! (Dany should too!)

#288

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 8:58 AM

Even if it was true, I don't see it as Tywin helping Jaime but as him fixing something non-perfect and embarrassing about one of his kids. I doubt any of his tutoring sessions would've been anything less than frightening. Would you really want to fail THAT man?


This! I remember back in the beginning of last year's series--Jaime and Cersei are standing, looking down at the body of Jon Arryn lying in state. Cersei reminds Jaime that when they were kids, he jumped off a cliff into water without a moment's hesitation. She tells Jaime 'You weren't afraid of anything.' Jaime responds: 'There was nothing to be afraid of...pause...until you told father.' That little exchange said so much to me--jumping off a cliff was nothing to be afraid of--but father learning about it? Yep, be afraid, be very afraid.

#289

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 8:58 AM

[quote]It occurred to me that it's possible that being traded for Jaime would get Arya back to her mother and brother, which she wants. So it's ironic that she's working so hard to conceal her identity.

That never occurred to me! You are so right! I wonder what her plan is? Or if she's just thinking about her daily survival. If she was listening to Littlefinger, she would know that the Lannisters WANT to trade her if she didn't before.

#290

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:01 AM

Tywin:Tutor of the Dyslexic? another thing to add to his resume

I thought that part was totally unbelievable.



I'm not sure if the unbelievable refers to the method of teaching a dyslexic person to read, or that Tywin himself spent four hours a day with Jamie on it.

I can't comment on the former, but the latter was totally believable. There's nothing more important to Tywin than his family and service to his family. Jamie isn't just some random Lannister cousin, but the son of the Lord of Casterly Rock. He needs to be able to read to serve his family, and Tywin will do anything he must to ensure that Jamie can.

#291

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:01 AM

But hasn't Robb already nixed that trade--'the girls' for Jaime? He told Catlyn that his men would hang him by his heels or somesuch, if he made such a trade.

#292

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:03 AM

I wonder what her plan is? Or if she's just thinking about her daily survival.


At this point I think Arya's all about day-to-day survival, without any long-term plan.

#293

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:05 AM

Dany seems to be getting younger or looks younger in her good clothes.


This is something I noted while watching & forgot to mention earlier. It's not a huge detail, but one of those things that provide a certain cohesion for me to the story. Dany is quite young in books, I believe (14? 15?), and not that much older than that in show. And I think Emilia Clarke is in her mid 20's. In any case, the point is to portray Dany as a young, inexperienced girl. So I like that she actually looks quite innocent/youthful in scenes, as opposed to times when characters are supposed to appear young/old but it just doesn't work. It makes it all the more logical to see a young girl behaving like a self-centered teenager (when she does hit those notes). So when she missteps, it's like, well this kid is still learning her way.

I suppose much of the cast is in that same boat, learning as they go, since they are so young and in dire predicaments, and will make mistakes, sometimes grave ones, perhaps. Wow, comma much? Although, I don't expect much growth for Joff, heh.

#294

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:08 AM

Excellent episode.

Theon may be a hit and miss character for me but his whole treachery was rather effective, even if he was stupid enough to let Osha trick him and make off with Bran, Rickon and Hodor.

Arya - was she recognised by Baelish? It looked like it and I have a feeling that Tywin is getting more suspicious as well. Still, she's got one more kill to call in though.

Joffrey getting thrown at him and being slapped by Tyrion was more than he deserved. Felt bad for Sansa though and Shae better hope that Cersei doesn't find out about her and Tyrion as well.

Both Robb and Jon seem to have acquired love interests, I like them both but Ygritte is the more interesting of the two though.

Daenerys seems to be getting more and more out of her depth and her dragons got snatched in this one, 9/10.

#295

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:17 AM

At this point I think Arya's all about day-to-day survival, without any long-term plan.

I think that upon reading that note she realized Robb and his camp were a lot closer than she thought, and now she knows exactly where they are. IMO she was running to tell Gendry so that he might come with her and try to get to Robb's camp.

Of course Ayra wants to be reunited with her mother and Robb but there is no way she is going to disclose her identity to ANYONE in the Lannister camp. 1. They may not believe her, 2. If negotiations go sour she's a royal hostage like Sansa. Ayra's strengths are out on the road posing as a commoner, just as Sansa's are being a royal hostage. They both would be dead meat in the other's position.

#296

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:49 AM

But hasn't Robb already nixed that trade--'the girls' for Jaime? He told Catlyn that his men would hang him by his heels or somesuch, if he made such a trade.


Robb nipped that in the bud, but I'm not sure who amongst the Lannisters knows he won't trade 2 sisters for 1 brother -- especially if they think Cat has any input (as Tyrion and LF obviously do).

#297

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:54 AM

A great bit that's been overlooked is how utterly unimpressed Tywin is with Littlefinger.

"Chaos affords opportunities!"

"Uh, duh."

#298

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 11:07 AM

Unfortunately you can blame some of Dany's delusions on Jorah himself. He was the one who came up with the idea that they should take a boat to Westeros and that there were allies just waiting to come out of the woodworks. Of course this was something he just pulled up out of nowhere to discourage her from marrying Xaro.


To be fair, this was actually coming from Illyrio way back in S1E1, and he put that notion into Viserys' head. I've never heard Jorah himself say anything similar until this episode. I think he knows better, but it worked with Viserys and I guess he figured it might work with Dany.


It is curious, as one of the first and best things Jorah ever told Dany was that the common people couldn't give two craps who sits the Iron Throne, and we've not been hearing about any noble die hard Loyalists. I mean, the Lannisters were not on the side of the rebellion until the very end, and they are not going to welcome back the Targaryens (or be welcomed given Tywin ordered the children killed). Obviously with book knowledge we know which Houses fought the rebels and thus might be inclined to support a restoration, but why would Jorah or Dany think they might be amenable now?


Tywin:Tutor of the Dyslexic? another thing to add to his resume

I thought that part was totally unbelievable.



Even if it was true, I don't see it as Tywin helping Jaime but as him fixing something non-perfect and embarrassing about one of his kids. I doubt any of his tutoring sessions would've been anything less than frightening. Would you really want to fail THAT man?

I'm on the side of those who can believe Tywin would do it. It's about his family being great, not being weak, and as stated, given how he tears into his own lords and cousins for being idiots, I doubt it was pleasant for Jaime, and he was Tywin's heir, so he would take a very direct role in purging him of suspected weakness. The man has dominated so many scenes this season he was not even present in, with his children very conscious of his wishes and what would be expected of them despite being hundreds of miles away. That says to me he has always been a domineering figure, to his family even more than his bannermen. He's proud, intelligent, energetic and even wise, and he exudes this aura of having spent his whole life dealing with idiots, or just people like Baelish who think they are smarter than in fact they are (as DoctorDogBoy wonderfully demonstrates above).

Also, once I get past the quibble of Tywin being so accomodating of Arya, which I let go as artistic license to permit more character development and cool as hell scenes, I can buy him revealing the story to Arya as random cupbearer. He seemed qutie tired in that moment all of a sudden. He isn't a young man anymore, and he had to revive a Great House which had almost been ruined by his father Tytos (according to him anyway) and then still as a young man he was Hand to a king who at some point went insane, and now he is fighting an unexpectedly difficult war with further enemies on the horizon to keep his grandson, his legacy, on the throne. For a second, it seemed like it was getting to even him.

At heart, Robert wasn't an evil or vicious man and he did mean well, but he was a pretty shitty king.

He was, but given the chaotic hell that immediately preceded and succeeded his reign, I imagine his rule will be seen as something of a golden age for quite a long time until historical revisionists take another look at it. The reign of King Robert the I, time of the ten year summer!

Edited by kieran555, May 8, 2012 @ 11:08 AM.


#299

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 11:16 AM

I guess I could see how a sworn brother of the Night's Watch would see it that way because of the celibacy vows/oath, but I don't share the opinion.

And that's what matters, since what works on one person doesn't necessarily work on another.

Since Ygritte's intention was to raise Jon's body temperature without any shelter or fire available, I can't possibly see that as an attempt of seduction.

I could see how someone as naive/young as Jon might see it that way, if only because the show established he has never even slept with a woman before, but that's about it. I seriously doubt someone as experienced as his Lord father Eddard Stark or even a lothario like King Robert would've seen it that way.

I think that upon reading that note she realized Robb and his camp were a lot closer than she thought, and now she knows exactly where they are. IMO she was running to tell Gendry so that he might come with her and try to get to Robb's camp.

Now that you mention it, Gendry does work at the armoury (or at least he should)! I never ever thought about it until you brought it up.

Edited by agora, May 8, 2012 @ 11:25 AM.


#300

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 11:25 AM

A great bit that's been overlooked is how utterly unimpressed Tywin is with Littlefinger.

"Chaos affords opportunities!"

"Uh, duh."


I also liked Tywin's dismissive greeting:

Littlefinger: Lord Tywin
Tywin: Baelish

Couldn't even be bothered to call Littlefinger a lord.