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24-13: "It's Human Nature" 2012.05.09


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#151

needschocolate

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Posted May 10, 2012 @ 11:10 PM

Sabrina's playing the game her own way, and if she's cultivating relationships in such a way that there isn't much, if any, ill will toward her from the people shes voted out, I'd say that she is doing something in the game.

But she may have to convince the jury that she wasn't a coattail rider.

Easily beatable Alicia/Christina in the FTC vs. bitter Sabrina and (less so) Chelsea on the jury?

I hope Sabrina is on the jury because I am interested to see how bitter she would be. She seems to be the only one saying comments like (paraphrased), "If I can trust what Kim is saying..." I think Sabrina (and Kim) realize that an alliance is only an alliance until it stops being helpful to your game and that sometimes you need tovote out your friends to put yourself in a better position. I just don't see Sabrina complaining that Kim lied to her. Of course, this is also why I think if Kim is voted out before FTC, Sabrina wil be the one initiating the plan (and I don't think Kim would be bitter either). They both just seem so rational.

#152

katesus7

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Posted May 10, 2012 @ 11:38 PM

So, is it possible Sabrina is the JT and Kim is the Stephen of this season?

Wow, that gives me something to think about. Mostly with the editing possibly setting up a similar scenario. Stephen seemed to be set up as the one making all the moves, the "brains" of the operation, but JT had a fantastic social game, and was able to sit back a bit and let Stephen be the 'face' of the alliance, he gave entertaining confessionals, and it worked out for him pretty well. I wonder if the final 3 vs. final 2 dynamic changes things, though, although I'm not sure how. And I think Kim has a much better social game than Stephen.

So it is interesting to me (as has been pointed out) that Kim went from a final 3 of her/Alicia/Kat last week to a final 3 of her/Sabrina/Chelsea this week, and it just happened to be the same people she went on reward with. But I don't think it's as simple as her going with whoever she happens to be with at the moment.

At the time, her/Alicia/Kat might've been the best move for her. They were still part of the original 5 alliance, she could make the argument she wasn't betraying her original alliance, but they were probably easier to beat at the end. But the Sabrina boot didn't work out - partially due to Alicia's change of heart - which might've raised a red flag to Kim about Alicia. Especially since Alicia has this bond with Tarzan, and Christina was shown to be loyal to Kim/Alicia/Tarzan after Chelsea approached her. I think at that point, Kim had to switch plans. She had to go with the 2 people she was 'alligned' with, who need her vote, as opposed to the 3 people she was 'alligned' with, who were suddenly this group who could easily boot her at final 4. It's one of the things I like about her - she doesn't decide that plan A has to happen, no matter what. She's fine with plan B, C, whatever. She re-evaulates things on a regular basis, which I think a good player has to do. But I don't know, I might just have a huge fangirl crush. It's those eyes!

#153

Aza

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 12:55 AM

So let me see if I've got this right... Alicia and Christina voted out Tarzan because they were scared that he was starting to play the game, as opposed to voting for Chelsea, and by extension Kim, who have been playing it from the start. I don't see the sense in this at all. Add to that, Alicia had a million times more chance of winning the whole thing against Tarzan than she does against Kim or Sabrina.

Am I the only one hoping for a season where every contestant they cast is smart (at playing the game), socially adept, willing to make moves, not happy to just make the F3 etc. For me that would be the ultimate because people wouldn't get voted out without kicking and screaming, they would always be looking to make moves and put themselves in a better position. I can only dream though (though I'm sure there would be some down sides as well).

Regarding the IC, I found it unusual that the 'fish bones' didn't have to be in the correct position (apart from the colour coding). They were a bit all over the place.

#154

xr11576

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 1:20 AM

Am I the only one hoping for a season where every contestant they cast is smart (at playing the game), socially adept, willing to make moves, not happy to just make the F3 etc. For me that would be the ultimate because people wouldn't get voted out without kicking and screaming, they would always be looking to make moves and put themselves in a better position. I can only dream though (though I'm sure there would be some down sides as well).


Well there have been 2 All-Star seasons like this, not including the half-star FvF.

The first time was kind of boring since everyone just let Rob (and by extension Amber) march to the end (since Rob is great at making everyone think they're going to the end with him...like Kim).

Second time (HvV) was just pure chaos and very entertaining. Any tiny alteration in that timeline and you get a total different F3. Like that Tyson vote goes different and you probably get some whacky Candice-Sandra-Rupert F3. Run that simulation again and it's Tyson-Coach-Courtney at the end.

#155

kazou

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 7:32 AM

Frogsrule: He's An Idiot: Alicia holds court on how "she" (bwah!) figured out that Tarzan was trying to play her against Kim and vice versa. He wasn't going to fool her! She saw through him!


This cracked me up. I wonder if Alicia is self-aware enough to cringe when she sees some of her talking heads? Yeah, probably not.


Frogsrule: How Is That Fair? You knew this was coming. After saying that she didn't think she would get chosen for this reward because she (Alicia) has been on two back-to-back rewards, she then gripes. And. Gripes. And gripes some more about the fact that Kim got to go on three back-to-back rewards. Wait a minute Alicia, if Chelsea had picked you, YOU would have been the person who went on three back-to-back rewards, no?

Alicia *insists* that she's not angry that Chelsea took Kim. She's only angry (she says) because Chelsea took Kim after her pre-Sabrina-pick about choosing her because it was the fair thing to do.


In Alicia's defense (??!!! o_O !!!), the clip seems to indicate she has no problem with not being chosen, it's just the way Chelsea went about it that upset Alicia. Specifically, she felt it was unfair for Cat to be targeted for choosing the "wrong" people in her reward challenge but Chelsea did the exact same thing with impunity.

In fact, based on this clip and the other clip where Alicia admits to feeling like a "wicked stepsister" for targeting Cat -- especially after hearing her cry post-elimination -- I think Alicia feels guilty. Of course, she conveniently forgets SHE was the one who switched things up and targeted Cat. Or maybe that was more of Kim's magic that was just edited out?? I can totally picture Kim planting the idea in Alicia's head ("Can you believe how Cat DOMINATED that challenge? Wow!") and Alicia then deciding it was all her idea! LOL.

As you mentioned, Alicia also stated that she didn't expect to be taken since she's had two rewards but Chelsea said she was going to choose someone "fair." Sabrina was a "fair" choice according to Alicia, but Kim was not fair. I wonder if Chelsea had chosen Christina instead of Kim, whether that would have been "fair" in Alicia's book. However, who knows? Alicia seems to be holding a LOT of resentment towards Chelsea about Cat's blindside. Or maybe it's just jealousy because on some level she intuits that Chelsea and Kim are besties? (Although according to Alicia's talking heads, it's all her and Kim! LOL!) To quote someone upthread, I feel all kinds of dirty defending Alicia. Ick!

ETA:

Sabrina is the biggest remaining threat to win and Kim needs to boot her before FTC.


fnftw: I agree that Sabrina is a threat, though when you judge two people who have both been strategic and worked together in the game, you usually go with the stronger one, which is why I think Kim can take Sabrina in the final vote. However, when you judge two people on different criteria, one who's been strategic and the other a goat, and you happen to hate the smart strategic one, you might vote for the goat just to not vote for the player you hate.


I'm not sure it's a question of Kim "taking" Sabrina to the finals. Someone upthread mentioned that Sabrina admitted to being the leader of their tribe initially, then deliberately taking a back seat so Kim could be the face of deception with the target on her back. I think it's equally possible she's been throwing challenges -- she went out waaaaaay too easily on this last one. First? Meh. I could be wrong but think we're going to see Sabrina turn up the heat in these final challenges and kick some serious ass. For that reason alone, perhaps it was a mistake to take Sabrina on the reward and give her the change to replenish her strength. Hopefully Kim is ready for that, and prevails (then votes Sabrina off). Because much as I like Sabrina, there's an extremely good chance she can sway the jury if she gets to the final three, and based on overall game play I'm pulling for Kim.

Edited by kazou, May 11, 2012 @ 8:33 AM.


#156

Yogurt Baron

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 8:33 AM

Someone upthread mentioned that Sabrina admitted to being the leader of their tribe initially, then deliberately taking a back seat so Kim could be the face of deception with the target on her back.


Alicia still "admits" to being the leader of the tribe. Troyzan admitted it was his island. And so on. That's the one fascinating change in the game that the mactor era has brought about: everybody thinks they're the star of the show. A personality like Kim's just reinforces that. She's good at making whoever she's talking to think that that person is the star, and that she's just happy to be their friend.

I feel about Sabrina roughly the way I felt about Sophie at this stage of last season: 2% annoyed by her bad moves, 98% "wait, there's a Sabrina on this show?" So I'm starting to worry she'll win.

#157

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 9:10 AM

Alicia seems to be holding a LOT of resentment towards Chelsea about Cat's blindside. Or maybe it's just jealousy


I know there are no mirrors on the island but surely this girl has seen who's the fairest of the maidens and it ain't her. She's trying to build up resentment toward Chelsea so she won't wind up in the F3 with Kim... and her, since Alicia has this delusion that she's one of the F3. I would be surprised if she is, I sure hope she gets booted next. I'd rather see clueless Christina in the F3 with Kim and Sabrina, since nobody would vote for her and it would be down to the final two women who deserve to be there. Chelsea has done nothing but slobber at Kim's feet the entire time.

#158

needschocolate

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 9:41 AM

So, is it possible Sabrina is the JT and Kim is the Stephen of this season?

Wow, that gives me something to think about. Mostly with the editing possibly setting up a similar scenario. Stephen seemed to be set up as the one making all the moves, the "brains" of the operation, but JT had a fantastic social game, and was able to sit back a bit and let Stephen be the 'face' of the alliance, he gave entertaining confessionals, and it worked out for him pretty well. I wonder if the final 3 vs. final 2 dynamic changes things, though, although I'm not sure how. And I think Kim has a much better social game than Stephen

JT was a likable, challenge monster and Stephen was a oddball strategic mastermind. This time around, Kim is a strategic challenge monster and Sabrina is just likable - neither is an oddball. At least those voting for JT could tell themselves he deserved it for winning challenges and providing food - not sure they can say that about Sabrina. If Sabrina and Kim end up in the FTC and Sabrina wins, I think it will be the sign of a very bitter jury.

Stephen and JT were a final 2? I didn't think they were that long ago, but can't figure out who the third one would be.

#159

BurnXFreeze

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 9:45 AM

I could be wrong but think we're going to see Sabrina turn up the heat in these final challenges and kick some serious ass.

I'm not sure. Last week would have been the ideal time to turn it on: an endurance challenge when she was on the chopping block. Instead, she was the first one out.

I would love to see how Sabrina strategizes with the other players one-on-one. She comes across as very bright but her signature move seems to be rallying public sentiment. That's worked for her, so I'm not discounting it, but I don't have much insight into how she's setting herself up for the endgame.

#160

chelonia

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 9:58 AM

Kim is a person who is very good at the game of Survivor. I was stunned at what she pulled off with Alicia and had to kind of process it for awhile before figuring out what had happened. Consider that Alicia actually had it figured out correctly and SAID SO - if Kim comes back from the reward with a song-and-dance about how they need to vote someone off other than Chelsea, then it's time to stop trusting her and maybe even vote her off.

So whaddya know - Kim comes back with a song-and-dance about needing to vote off not-Chelsea and Alicia completely flips on her previous nugget of wisdom and goes along with it. Because of course it's not really something so transparent as a song-and-dance - it's 11th dimensional Kim-fu that convinces Alicia that's she the one who thought up the idea of voting off Tarzan.

Really stunning to watch.


Agreed that it was stunning, but that's not how I saw it go down. Alicia didn't figure it out, Tarzan was the one who made the comment about watching for a Kim switch from Chelsea. Kim didn't return with a song-and-dance about needing to vote off not-Chelsea, she didn't mention Chelsea at all. She just exposed Tarzan's double-dealing and let Alicia flip all on her own.

I really hope the F3 are Kim/Chelsea/Sabrina--Chelsea because that shows Kim's loyalty to her best friend in the game, and Sabrina precisely because she is Kim's biggest threat. If Kim is to be crowned Best Ever she needs to win against the strongest opposition. I think she can do it. I agree with the many posters here who have said that Kim has the MAGIC, and I don't see how she would suddenly lose it at FTC.

#161

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 10:29 AM

If Kim is to be crowned Best Ever she needs to win against the strongest opposition.


That's the problem IMO. She did not compete against strong competition. There is no way I personally can crown her best ever.

Now if she plays in an all-star season and runs things there, I would definitely reconsider.

#162

BurnXFreeze

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 11:08 AM

That's the problem IMO. She did not compete against strong competition. There is no way I personally can crown her best ever.

I feel like this can balance out in the end. Kim doesn't have a true peer out there in terms of rational gameplay -- maybe Sabrina if you're generous. But irrational players give you an irrational jury, and winning over people like that after you've orchestrated their ousters takes a different kind of skill.

I've got no idea if she's the best ever, but if she wins I'll have no problem putting her in the top tier. (And if she doesn't win, I'm sure she'll go on with her life, which is another reason I like her.)

Edited by BurnXFreeze, May 11, 2012 @ 11:09 AM.


#163

Doener Kebap

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 12:06 PM

She's also more like Yul in the sense that she's doing this her first time out, rather than relying on a cast that's looking at her like a legend, since she's at it for the fourth time, plus a couple of Amazing Race losing attempts, and a wedding special. Plus, the producers don't have a Save-Kim's-Ass Island gimmick as a back-up just in case the player they really really want to finally win the game gets voted out by people with brains who aren't starstruck that squeezed through the casting process somehow.

Rob, in reality was a mediocre player, not even making the jury phase twice in 4 attempts, needlessly pissing off a jury in another attempt. His "win" really took a lot of producer manipulation.


Amen to the over-hyping of Bahstan Rahb.

#164

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 12:45 PM

Double amen!

I feel about Sabrina roughly the way I felt about Sophie at this stage of last season: 2% annoyed by her bad moves, 98% "wait, there's a Sabrina on this show?" So I'm starting to worry she'll win.

Sophie had bad moves? Ooooooookay.

I really don't think Sabrina's made any bad moves. If hers is that she hasn't booted Kim, then I don't see it that way. She clearly thinks they have a F3 agreement. And they might. Why betray that and risk losing her vote?

#165

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 2:07 PM

That's the problem IMO. She did not compete against strong competition. There is no way I personally can crown her best ever.

Now if she plays in an all-star season and runs things there, I would definitely reconsider.

Its hard to say she's THE best. But there's nothing wrong with saying she's played ONE of the best games we've seen. Its not a statement crowning her as Queen of Survivor, but rather an admittedly subjective opinion that the strategies she's used and her handle on the game is impressive.

Personally, I'm not sure winning an ASS is even the best indicator. Weird things happen in the ASS seasons, and egos clash in a totally different way (often based on real-world outside influences and alliances, since these people all know each other). I'm not saying winning an ASS isn't a great validation, it is, I just almost see it as a slightly different game (with the crappy "bring back two alumni" seasons being kind of a bastard step-child in between the two).

I feel like this can balance out in the end. Kim doesn't have a true peer out there in terms of rational gameplay -- maybe Sabrina if you're generous. But irrational players give you an irrational jury, and winning over people like that after you've orchestrated their ousters takes a different kind of skill.

That's an interesting observation about her. "Rational".

I think the big difference between her and most Survivors is that she doesn't fall pray to irrationality the way most inevitably do. And I DO mean "most". Not just the obvious basket cases, not just the people who have break downs or make unexpected mid-game emotional decisions at odds with any earlier claims to be there just to win. MOST. Just as much the ones who come on bragging about what game players they are and that "they aren't there to make friends". Those people are irrational too, in how it affects their social game often. Kim isn't. She's calm, collected and if she's got an ego, its been well hidden.

#166

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 3:33 PM

And I DO mean "most".


Our of curiosity, who would you include on the list of the rational?

For me, it's Hatch, Heidik, Yul, Earl, Yau, and Cirie as an edge case.

#167

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 3:46 PM

I really don't think Sabrina's made any bad moves. If hers is that she hasn't booted Kim, then I don't see it that way. She clearly thinks they have a F3 agreement. And they might. Why betray that and risk losing her vote?


I was referring mostly to her antagonizing Troy. And although others have told me this was just misleading editing, I really judged Sabrina harshly when Kim and Chelsea made a side alliance with the men and Sabrina seemed to be on the outside of it.

And...why should Sabrina betray Kim? Because Kim will beat her if she doesn't.

If Kim is to be crowned Best Ever she needs to win against the strongest opposition.


I'm curious, then, who you think is Best Ever. Most casts are filled with people who, next to the winner, look like weak opposition. Probably the best cast ever is Cook Islands...and even there, in the F3, Yul only had to beat Ozzy, whose subsequent appearances proved him to be less than useless at the game.

Edited by Yogurt Baron, May 11, 2012 @ 3:50 PM.


#168

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 7:05 PM

As I said before, I think the way Kim is playing this game and the way this episode played out is a lot like the Thailand one where Brian H won. Alicia is just as despicable as Clay. One would have thought there was no way Kim would tkae Alicia the way some of us were hoping Brian H wouldnt take Clay. BUt it looks like a possibility. THe only difference I see is they don't show much of Kim working around camp the way Brian would. Brian to me played the best game of all. Kim is pretty close.

#169

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 9:03 PM

Let's try to keep the discussion about the episode. It's fine to bring up past players as a point of comparison, but if your whole post is about past players, it belongs in another thread, or start a new thread in General Gabbert if no appropriate one exists. But please don't use this thread to restart the debate over Boston Rob, Sophie, or whomever else.

#170

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Posted May 12, 2012 @ 1:27 AM

Based on this episode, the only two people I see winning are Kim and Sabrina. There is a lot of evidence to support why Kim wins, but there is a lot of evidence to support why she loses. First, she has control of the game and is thinking about her options and applying them to advance her game. Everyone is convinced that she is in their corner. She also has a great social game, and everyone likes her. However, she has a deal with everyone, so there are going to be hurt feelings when she votes them out. She is a convincing liar in which she will have justify to the betrayed jury. She made people trust her which could make people feel foolish on the jury. If this is the case, enough people could not vote for her costing her the win.

Sabrina, on the other hand, has been actively strategizing along side Kim, but she didn't have to make any deals with anyone to break them. She has a good social game. Earlier in the game, it was presented that the Salani tribe was falling apart until Sabrina was chosen the leader. After that, the tribe was improved and started winning. She has stated several times (different tribal councils) that she will look you in the eye and tell you the truth. She even stated that telling Christina the deal about voting for her the night Troy went home was important because how you vote people off can shape their opinion of you, which shows she has better jury management skills than Kim. She is the only one who sees Kim for what she is and knows how she lies and people keep believing Kim. The editing is subtle, but every time I think that Kim is the clear winner, the editors show Sabrina as someone who is a threat to win the game.

Kim decided to keep her original final 3 deal with Sabrina and Chelsea this episode. If she does, I think that decision will be the reason Kim loses and Sabrina wins. If she votes Sabrina out, then it doesn't matter who is in the final 3, Kim wins. This is why I see a case for both Kim and Sabrina.

#171

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Posted May 12, 2012 @ 11:30 AM

I really hope the F3 are Kim/Chelsea/Sabrina--Chelsea because that shows Kim's loyalty to her best friend in the game, and Sabrina precisely because she is Kim's biggest threat. If Kim is to be crowned Best Ever she needs to win against the strongest opposition.


I would think the Best Ever would get rid of the strongest opposition first rather than let them make it to FTC. You still have beaten the strongest opposition, you've just done it early before they can do damage to you as the game progresses.

I don't see why failing to eliminate a legitimate threat and allowing them to make FTC, would be a prerequisite for a player to be Best Ever.

Besides I think Kim doesn't give a hoot about that, I think she is just concerned with winning the game.

#172

lemonsherry

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Posted May 12, 2012 @ 12:49 PM

All I can say is, I'm already preparing to mute Kat and Troyzan's jury speeches. It was all I could do to stomach Kat's antics during tribal. Spoiled brat.

#173

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Posted May 12, 2012 @ 1:11 PM

I would think the Best Ever would get rid of the strongest opposition first rather than let them make it to FTC. You still have beaten the strongest opposition, you've just done it early before they can do damage to you as the game progresses.

I don't see why failing to eliminate a legitimate threat and allowing them to make FTC, would be a prerequisite for a player to be Best Ever.

Exactly. It would not diminish Kim's victory in any way to get rid of Sabrina prior to FTC. People keep wanting to add an asterisk to Brian Heidik's nearly-flawless game because he took the buffoonish Clay to FTC, but why should he have willingly taken someone who could have beaten him? Keeping Sabrina would just be a dumb move, like Colby keeping Tina. The winner gets the same million dollars whether or not there's any suspense at FTC.

Besides I think Kim doesn't give a hoot about that, I think she is just concerned with winning the game.

I agree. The only Survivor players who have shown the slightest concern about their "legacy" in the game are the returnees like Coach and Ozzy. (Oh, and Kat, who already wants to come back and redeem herself.) As a first-time player, Kim simply wants to win. She doesn't really have the luxury of trying to show that she's the "best ever."

#174

chelonia

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Posted May 12, 2012 @ 6:46 PM

I'm curious, then, who you think is Best Ever.


Meet me over at Best Survivor Contestant Ever? Same for anyone who thinks eliminating the strongest player early still makes you the best.

#175

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Posted May 12, 2012 @ 8:23 PM

Did anyone notice how that immunity challenge would have been really unfair to Leif if he had got that far?

I am not sure if he could have picked up three hooks and bag of puzzle pieces.

#176

aemilia

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Posted May 12, 2012 @ 11:29 PM

Did anyone notice how that immunity challenge would have been really unfair to Leif if he had got that far?

I am not sure if he could have picked up three hooks and bag of puzzle pieces.


They probably had Leif friendly challenges available to them for the entire run just in case, but once he was eliminated they would not have to use them and went to the other ones.

#177

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Posted May 13, 2012 @ 12:48 AM

Here's a question I want answered by the show...

does anyone other than Chelsea know about Kim's idol. In this episode, along with previous ones, the editing makes it look like people are glancing Kim's way when Jeff asks if anyone wants to play an idol. I can't decide if I think it's just that, editing, or if others know. Since it hasn't been mentioned in the extra videos of those still in the game or those voted out, I'm leaning towards no one knowing.

I do believe Kim will play at the final 5 (since it's the last time she can play it) just to make 100% sure she makes final 4. If no one but Chelsea knows, I can't decide if Kim hiding the idol will impress the jury or not.


Thoughts?

#178

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Posted May 13, 2012 @ 2:50 AM

I think if Chelsea or Kim had told anyone else, we'd have seen it. It might impress the jury that she was able to keep her mouth shut, it also might make them see her as more manipulative. Holding an idol till the very last moment is so very Rob-like, which may not play well. If I were on the jury and saw her say "Well, I guess I better use this, just because" I'd see it as a chink in her armor. I'd be more impressed if she kept it because she was confident that she didn't need it. Whoever gets voted out that round (let's hope it's Alicia) and thinks they were her BFF will be pissed she didn't give it to them.

#179

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Posted May 13, 2012 @ 4:06 AM

Yeah, I really don't see Kim playing that idol unless she really feels like she's in trouble. She might very well sit on it because she's that confident that she won't be targeted.

#180

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Posted May 13, 2012 @ 11:16 AM

I would never in a million years sit on an HII at the last TC I could play it. You can regret a lot of things in this game, but getting blindsided with the HII in your pocket when there was zero reason to save it would have to be Top 3 Facepalm Moments ever.

I can't conceive that someone on the Jury would change their vote from Kim because she played the HII at the last TC she could play it. I think it far more likely that someone would be impressed that she found it and kept her mouth shut about it (and still didn't need to play it until the last possible moment).

I think it's even more likely that she would lose someone's vote because she had it and didn't play it at all, which would be the ultimate in arrogance/cockiness.