Jump to content

3-21: "Before Sunset" 2012.05.03 (recap)


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.

144 replies to this topic

#121

Kara1940

Kara1940

    Video Archivist

Posted May 8, 2012 @ 11:37 AM

Yeah, it would be awkward, but we all make sacrifices for the people we love.

So the only way one of the brothers to prove their love for Elena is to be at her beck and call always, and stick around and watch their brother be with the woman that they both love? Really? Because now that I think about it maybe awkward is not a strong enough word to use here.

No, it was Stefan acknowledging how hard it would be for him.

And thatís your opinion and thatís fine, not a fact. In my opinion Stefan was pointing out the obvious, acknowledging Elenaís choice will have real consequences for the dynamic of all three relationships. And he seems willing to let Elena go and step aside for his brother if Elenaís choice goes against him. Some may see that as selfish, I see it is Stefan doing the best he can to navigate through the fall out.

That's ridiculous, especially for two people who claim to love her so, so much. It's like saying she's worth something only inside a romantic relationship, which has very little to do with love and very much to do with winning a contest.

I completely agree, turning this into a contest is awful. But that is not Stefan doing that, that is the show turning this triangle into something out of the bachelor.

That said, the way I read what each brother is feeling is like this. Damon, has already lived with witnessing the Stefan/Elena relationship. He also can be more flippant and pretend things don't affect him more. If Elena chose Stefan, he wouldn't be losing much of anything because he hasn't had her romantically, in the real sense of the word and he's more capable of watching her with someone else. In some ways he's more mature than Stefan in that sense. On the other side, Stefan was with Elena. They were truly together and because of his actions recently (which were sparked due to him wanting to save his brother) he could lose her. He would have to watch her be with his brother, which he's never had to do. He's also the type that sits around moping from his emotional angst so much it makes others scream, so he knows he won't do a very good job of watching them and manage to keep his sanity. And both point of views are perfectly okay with. IMO, if you know you can't handle something and you don't have to, than don't.

This is what I was trying to say, but you did such a better job at it. Stefan and Elena have so much romantic history, while Damon and Elena have flirting and friendship, so to me it's not the same thing. And Stefan does mope and brood and wear his heart on his sleeve, He feels things very deeply and I think he knows this about himself. While Damon I think feels every bit as much as Stefan, they are different people with different personalities. I think Stefan is just being more realistic about the situation, thatís just how I see it.

I guess my point is, that though I dislike both brothers as romantic interests for her, I can kind of see what the writers are going for her. And I'm not sure how much better Stefan's reaction could have been given his past with Elena and the differences in his personality to Damon's. I also have zero problem with either of them, Stefan or Damon choosing to not be around the person that didn't want to be with them. At the end of the day, they know they can reconnect at any point in their lives. At some point, they need to put themselves first and if they need to heal and know that they can't be around Elena forever, then so be it. Whichever one were to choose to.

I agree with all of this. Elena I think needs to take some responsibility and face some of the consequences of her actions and choices. Same for Damon and Stefan, they both have done some pretty awful things, and I hate that it always has to come down to the triangle and who is worthy of Elena. I very much agree with that part about them putting themselves first, that is how I see it as well. It will be heartbreaking for the brother who is rejected here, and if that brother needs distance to heal, I can find no fault with that. Besides we all know this show will always be about the triangle, if there is some distance and separation it wonít be for long.

I completely agree with the last part of your post, Elena shouldn't be with either Salvatore, they're both terrible choices for someone who wants to have a normal life.

Completely agreed. I keep thinking of last season when Elena said she did not want to become a vampire, but the show doesnít seem to address any other choice for her outside of the two vampire brothers?

What I don't like is the way other characters react to his less-than-noble acts.

Iím just putting this out there, but maybe if the show is consistently not addressing something, maybe that means something?

#122

Denari06

Denari06

    Video Archivist

Posted May 8, 2012 @ 1:48 PM

I think that the way the characters react to Stefan's actions is on par with the way they react to Damon's. That is not at all. With Stefan, they dismiss it as Ripper Stefan and him not being himself. With Damon, they dismiss it as "Oh, that Damon...he's just like that. But he really does care."

I did watch Dawson's Creek, and I got to say, Dawson was a real sanctimonious asshole. Whereas, I don't get that from Stefan. In fact, I think the only one who puts him on a pedestal anymore is Elena and that's because her character is afraid not to and to acknowledge that Stefan isn't all that awesome. Which, I think makes sense for character to an extent.

I agree they are turning it into a contest. It would have been so much better if both brothers had just agree not to try to interfere if Elena chose one of them. It would have shown them putting their relationship first - for the most part.

#123

My Way

My Way

    Stalker

  • Location:Arkansas
  • Interests:Jensen Ackles.

Posted May 8, 2012 @ 2:13 PM

also have zero problem with either of them, Stefan or Damon choosing to not be around the person that didn't want to be with them.


I also didn't like that it looked like he basically manipulated Damon, who apparently had no intention of leaving, into agreeing with him

Exactly. Stefan can leave if he wants, but that’s not what he was doing. He was trying to get Damon to leave.

[snip] If Elena said to Damon I love you, but I chose Stefan, but I can't stand to loose you, so can you please stick around and watch me and your brother be happy?

I don’t classify myself as a ‘damon fan’ purely, I enjoy both brothers at times, I just think Stefan gets a pass on all the stuff he pulls and Damon always gets called on things…even when they aren’t his fault. At this point, both brothers have done pretty bad things in the past. Stefan’s past is more recent, even. So why is he still the ‘good’ brother?

I believe in people being allowed to change. Damon has come the farthest in that respect. In real life, I would ship Elena with an airplane far, far away from MF’s and both brothers but on this show? I think it’s time to go the Damon route because we’ve already seen Stefan/Elena and it just feels played out.

Edited by TWoP Howard, May 8, 2012 @ 3:58 PM.
Quoted post was deleted


#124

zizou

zizou

    Fanatic

Posted May 8, 2012 @ 2:24 PM

I think that the way the characters react to Stefan's actions is on par with the way they react to Damon's. That is not at all.

Well yes, but at least everyone in the show thinks Damon is "bad" - which I know is ridiculous considering what he has done but at least it's something. Stefan is still considered the "good" brother, the "pure" one and I really can't see how this is possible.

I did watch Dawson's Creek, and I got to say, Dawson was a real sanctimonious asshole. Whereas, I don't get that from Stefan.

I agree but that's not what I meant, I meant that no one called Dawson out on his shit, ever, and I feel the same thing happens to Stefan. Which in my opinion is a pity because, as I said, I usually like him (while I couldn't stand Dawson).

I completely agree, turning this into a contest is awful. But that is not Stefan doing that, that is the show turning this triangle into something out of the bachelor.

Oh I know, this damned triangle is ruining everything. I wasn't blaming Stefan tho, I was blaming both Salvatores for that.

I’m just putting this out there, but maybe if the show is consistently not addressing something, maybe that means something?

I know, but what? You mean that we're not supposed to see Stefan's actions in that way? That could be true for the first two seasons but I think in this one the effort to have Stefan commit the same horrible acts as Damon was really obvious so that can't be it. Any thoughts?

Edited by TWoP Howard, May 8, 2012 @ 3:59 PM.
Please don’t hide words behind asterisks


#125

Denari06

Denari06

    Video Archivist

Posted May 8, 2012 @ 3:44 PM

I think the writers deliberately wrote Stefan as committing atrocious acts to get him on par with the Damon of the first season and half. However, they refuse to, like you said, have anyone call him on it, even if it is the lame way in which they condemn Damon for five seconds. Which does make it seem like they don't even believe that Stefan can also be a terrible person. It's the same as they refuse to commit to killing of Klaus so it just makes them runaround in circles all season long.

I guess all I can think is that it's easier for a bunch of teenagers to default to this one good, this one bad because it's easier. The only two that I think are ever legitimate in seeming more damning toward Damon than Stefan are Caroline (due to IMO, Damon's emotional and physical abuse of her, attempt on her father's life and lack of regard toward he boyfriend) and Jeremy (due to Damon literally killing him and acting like a jerk to him 99.9% of the time). The rest are just a touch hypocritical.

In essence, I think the writers tried to even them out. For me it didn't really work because Damon committed terrible, terrible things that I'm not going to get past. And they waited so long to have Stefan do the same AND played it as he was off the wagon in Ripper Mode and not in control so it doesn't resonate. It's a shame because I remember I used to be a huge Stefan fan and found Damon appealing in the he's the bad boy one as well, whereas now I'm just over both of them.

#126

StefLena

StefLena

    Channel Surfer

Posted May 8, 2012 @ 6:39 PM

Stefan is selfish,clingy and manipulative. And he does it all under a guise of nobleness and "caring too much" and "being too good", having perfected the "I'm so wronged" sad look which people keep falling for -as did Elena and Damon this episode- and it is why I can't really stand his character anymore as no one EVER calls him on his crap on this show


I would have to disagree with you on this. I think the first part of this statement sums Damon up in a nut-shell.

Emily told Stefan that his punishment in vampire life would be his human feelings, pure heart, and kindness. So when Stefan does wrong, it tears him up inside, like some humans that have a conscience.

When both brothers were human, Damon was always the bad apple son, defying his farther, drinking Katís blood to turn so he could have her forever.

While Stefan on the other hand seemed to be the mild manner son, caring about others, trusting in them, and not wanting to drink Katís blood even to be with her forever. So naturally all those traits amplified when they became vampires, and we are seeing those traits being played out in each episode.

I know Stefan has his faults, as they all do, but even in life he was Noble. Even, when he was Ripper Stefan, after he killed and dismembered a person, he felt sorry and put them back together, that is how Damon knew it was Noble Ripper Stefan, and then Alaric asked Damon how did Damon know it was the work of Stefan, Damon said after Stefan rips them apart, he feels bad and then tries to put his victims parts back together while all the time Stefan is apologizing to them, and saying he is sorry to the dead person.

Also, when Stefan told Damon he would leave if Elena chose him, I did not think that was a selfish act. But, it took all of 12 hours for Damon to say it, and then when Damon did say he would leave, he said it as if he was just pacifying Stefan for the moment.

#127

Munchiewoman

Munchiewoman

    Fanatic

Posted May 8, 2012 @ 7:36 PM

Noble Ripper


That's quite the oxymoron. A truly caring, loving person wouldn't rip people apart in the first place. Which is why every time I watch Stefan tell Caroline that his caring impulses were amplified when he became a vampire I have to be careful not to be drinking something I will snort across the room. Stefan's first impulse when he became a vampire (not counting feeding on his father since that was something unexpected) was to force his brother to turn and start going crazy killing people, risking his and his brother's lives. And reveling in every minute of it. These are not the actions of someone who CARES about people. Contrast that with Caroline, someone who genuinely cares about people, who killed because she had absolutely no idea what was happening and immediately felt guilty about it.

His first action when Elena indicates she plans to choose? Make it so that Elena loses one of the brothers and the brother who is NOT chosen (which Stefan is probably pretty sure is Damon, since Elena took Stefan to the dance), oh, that brother loses everything. That's not noble. It's incredibly selfish. IMO.

Edited by Munchiewoman, May 8, 2012 @ 7:53 PM.


#128

zizou

zizou

    Fanatic

Posted May 8, 2012 @ 7:57 PM

However, they refuse to, like you said, have anyone call him on it, even if it is the lame way in which they condemn Damon for five seconds. Which does make it seem like they don't even believe that Stefan can also be a terrible person.


Exactly. And I really can't see what's the point, why have Stefan behaving horribly if it's forgotten instantly?

The only two that I think are ever legitimate in seeming more damning toward Damon than Stefan are Caroline (due to IMO, Damon's emotional and physical abuse of her, attempt on her father's life and lack of regard toward he boyfriend) and Jeremy (due to Damon literally killing him and acting like a jerk to him 99.9% of the time). The rest are just a touch hypocritical.


Jeremy doesn't seem biased to me, I think he just doesn't want his sister with either Salvatore (he wasn't exactly nice to Stefan in the last episode). He got over Damon killing him, as incredible as it sounds.
As for Caroline, I agree, after the way Damon treated her in S1 she has every right to strongly dislike him, even if he saved her life (the disregard of Tyler is shared with Elena and Stefan tho, but Caroline is biased and she admits it so I have no problem with that). Her pimping of Stefan did seem out of the blue but I think that's just because the two of them completely stopped interacting so one tends to forget that they're supposed to be friends. That's on the writers tho, not on the characters.

And they waited so long to have Stefan do the same AND played it as he was off the wagon in Ripper Mode and not in control so it doesn't resonate.


That's another issue I have: we are supposed to think that Stefan was not in control, while they portrayed him as the complete opposite - except for while he was under compulsion, of course. His actions seemed very deliberate and again, I don't get what's the point. I think they were scared to show us "full ripper" Stefan so instead we only got S1 Damon redux.

Anyway, that's the only problem I have with Stefan: it's not about Stefan as a character, like I said I like him (I'd like him better if he was less self-righteous and hypocritical but still), it's about how the other characters in the show perceive him, I really can't understand where they're coming from.

#129

night returns

night returns

    Loyal Viewer

Posted May 9, 2012 @ 5:05 AM

I understand the complaints about using witches as designated deus-ex-machinas to kill seemingly unkillable baddies and resolve seemingly unresolvable situations, but there is an intrinsic (to the show's universe) logic to that approach. For example, the various rings (and other objects) that do magic things are not naturally magic but were imbued with their powers by witches. That passes the logical smell test for me. Plus, at least having witches be the go-to deus-ex-machinas involves using actual individuals for that function as opposed to simply *magic* items. Contrast that with other shows whose standard ploy to deal with scenarios and challenges they set up to be impossible is to introduce a last minute MacGuffin (cough, BtVS).

Edited by night returns, May 9, 2012 @ 5:09 AM.


#130

My Way

My Way

    Stalker

  • Location:Arkansas
  • Interests:Jensen Ackles.

Posted May 9, 2012 @ 7:05 AM

Damon was always the bad apple son

Yeah, but I never got the impression that was because Damon actually was a bad apple. It was his fathers perception. Stefan has always cultivated the appearance of good, to me. He is always trying to make everyone see how good he is (even when he's awful). Damon kind of goes the opposite route, hiding the good he does and purposefully getting people riled up. I think their father liked Stefan better because he was more of a suck up. (it was also heavily implied that one of the way's Damon was a 'bad apple' was leaving the civil war-which I can't exactly hold against him).

Jeremy doesn't seem biased to me

Me either. Jeremy's kind of an interesting case because although he and Damon have had arguments, I think he likes Damon's way of going about things better than STefan. I get the impression Jeremy responds better to DAmon's call it like it is way of speaking to him (I'm quite partial to the scene where Jermey shows up at Damon's with a stake and Damon tells him people used to know how to wittle) then to Stefan's sort of patronizing default big brother thing. In this episode, Jeremy seemed pretty fed up with Stefan. He may have also been annoyed with his sister for macking on one brother and then hanging with the other, although nothing was really said about that.

#131

Denari06

Denari06

    Video Archivist

Posted May 9, 2012 @ 9:41 AM

I disagree about Jeremy. I think he is severely annoyed and frustrated with Damon's way of speaking to him. It's not just call it like it is, it's full on disrespectful and acting like Jeremy's opinions is of zero importance. Which to Damon, it's not. I also think that one of the greatest problems I have with Elena is the way she let's Damon treat her brother. I see nothing but Jeremy being angry with both brothers and have seen nothing to say that he actually prefers Damon for any reason.

If anything, Jeremy's had to get over Damon killing him, because it's not like he could even hold a grudge since his own sister was over it two episodes later.

#132

zizou

zizou

    Fanatic

Posted May 9, 2012 @ 10:10 AM

I see nothing but Jeremy being angry with both brothers and have seen nothing to say that he actually prefers Damon for any reason.


I agree, hence my impression that he's not biased.

Edited by zizou, May 9, 2012 @ 10:10 AM.


#133

redbudrose

redbudrose

    Fanatic

Posted May 9, 2012 @ 10:19 AM

I don't know if Jeremy has a bias for either Salvatore, but I do feel like he has forged his own relationship with Damon. His relationship with Stefan is just the guy his sister is dating. Jeremy may not like Damon, but he has no problem calling him on his shit and he also goes to Damon when there is a supernatural problem, not Stefan. I think this episode was the first time Jeremy really said anything that was on his mind to Stefan. Then 30 seconds later, he had Stefan sending him to his room. SMH.

#134

My Way

My Way

    Stalker

  • Location:Arkansas
  • Interests:Jensen Ackles.

Posted May 9, 2012 @ 12:14 PM

I don't know if Jeremy has a bias for either Salvatore, but I do feel like he has forged his own relationship with Damon.

That's kind of what I meant. Not that he 'likes' Damon, but that he manages to have some sort of interesting relationship with him that he doesn't with Stefan. Damon and Jeremy had the talk about wittling the stake, they had the talk about Anna and other things I think I'm forgetting. I feel like there is at least something interesting there, that I don't see with Stefan.

I was thinking this morning. For all the talk (mostly from Stefan) about how much he 'feels' I feel like most of his relationships on the show are superficial. He might be more friendly then Damon, but I don't see deep bonds with him and most of the other characters, whereas I think Damon has really bonded with people like Liz and Alaric and that he actually cares about them, personally. I don't see Stefan carrying about people in a personal way mostly, I see him more having this vague need to be 'good' and maybe liked that makes him be nicer on the surface but I don't see him getting thrown into a tizzy if any of the non-Elena people died.

#135

redbudrose

redbudrose

    Fanatic

Posted May 9, 2012 @ 1:32 PM

I was thinking this morning. For all the talk (mostly from Stefan) about how much he 'feels' I feel like most of his relationships on the show are superficial. He might be more friendly then Damon, but I don't see deep bonds with him and most of the other characters, whereas I think Damon has really bonded with people like Liz and Alaric and that he actually cares about them, personally. I don't see Stefan carrying about people in a personal way mostly, I see him more having this vague need to be 'good' and maybe liked that makes him be nicer on the surface but I don't see him getting thrown into a tizzy if any of the non-Elena people died.


I agree, in S1, Stefan told Damon he had no friends, but he managed to make a best friend out of the guy that tried to kill him, a very close friend out of Elena, and one out of Liz.

Aside from Lexi, Stefan didn't make any friends that are his. He made a friendship with Caroline, but most likely wouldn't have if she hadn't been turned. Stefan wasn't able to make a relationship with Jeremy or Alaric that wasn't about saving Elena.

Edited by redbudrose, May 9, 2012 @ 1:32 PM.


#136

Denari06

Denari06

    Video Archivist

Posted May 10, 2012 @ 11:38 AM

I wonder though, if that's because Stefan can't forge those relationships or because he's been so wound up. He was clearly good friends with Lexi and apparently was close with Klaus and Rebecca in the 20s. He tried to get to know Bonnie more but she was terrified of him. I wonder if Stefan hadn't had to be focused on not losing control and/or cleaning up Damon's messes at the beginning and then dealing with Katherine/Klaus/whatever other big bad he could have had a better shot.

Damon's much better at making friends (though I often wonder what kind of psycho wants to be friends with him or Stefan - think God for Jeremy and Bonnie who are both like WTF?) even in high stress situations.

#137

pjamma

pjamma

    Stalker

Posted Sep 25, 2012 @ 9:46 PM

Was it explained why Klaus died but Tyler did not? Did I miss the part where Bonnie used her magic to break the curse that causes all vampires part of an Original's bloodline to die if the Original dies? Because no one seemed worried.

#138

BerryIsHere

BerryIsHere

    Couch Potato

Posted Sep 25, 2012 @ 9:57 PM

The Jr Murder Club doesn't know who created their bloodline. Elijah states to Rebeka when they're alone that he thought Klaus turned Scary Mary. So they could still not be tied to Klaus' blood line (save Tyler) if Kol turned her.

#139

pjamma

pjamma

    Stalker

Posted Sep 25, 2012 @ 11:31 PM

I figure it is still up in the air for the Vamp Bros. but we know Tyler and Abby were created from Klaus' blood. But after he died everyone was hanging out, happy, like Tyler wasn't about to die.

#140

babybluez

babybluez

    Fanatic

Posted Sep 25, 2012 @ 11:35 PM

When Bonnie did the spell to desiccate Klaus, that was to basically put him in a permanent coma. He wasn't dead, thus Tyler and Abby wouldn't die, bur since he was incapacitated he couldn't bother the JMC anymore.

#141

pjamma

pjamma

    Stalker

Posted Sep 26, 2012 @ 12:44 AM

Thanks babybluez! So, in other words we haven't seen the last of Klaus. Because no coma is ever permanent.

#142

luvprue1

luvprue1

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Female

Posted Sep 26, 2012 @ 3:34 AM

When Bonnie did the spell to desiccate Klaus, that was to basically put him in a permanent coma. He wasn't dead, thus Tyler and Abby wouldn't die, bur since he was incapacitated he couldn't bother the JMC anymore.


It wasn't the desiccation spell that save Klaus ,Tyler and Abby. Bonnie did the body swap spell. the same spell Klaus did back in season 2 when he had taken over Alaric's body. The spell Esther did in season 3 when she switch bodies with Rebecca.

#143

babybluez

babybluez

    Fanatic

Posted Sep 26, 2012 @ 8:10 AM

Well yes, there were two spells. But I thought pjamma was talking about what happened to Klaus in ep 21, which is when Bonnie did the desiccation spell then Caroline threw a "yay Klaus is dead" party where they all celebrated the supposed end of his reign of lameness. Bonnie didn't do the body switch spell until 3x22, and no one was happy then because they thought Tyler was definitely a goner and Matt and Caroline completely lost it when they thought he died.

#144

redbudrose

redbudrose

    Fanatic

Posted Sep 26, 2012 @ 9:13 AM

I figure it is still up in the air for the Vamp Bros. but we know Tyler and Abby were created from Klaus' blood. But after he died everyone was hanging out, happy, like Tyler wasn't about to die.


Abby was created from Damon's bloodline. That makes her Klaus's but if they don't know why they are alive, they wouldn't assume Abby shouldn't be.

#145

pjamma

pjamma

    Stalker

Posted Sep 27, 2012 @ 2:22 PM

Babybluez, you are correct, I was referring to the reaction to Klaus's "death" in this episode and the celebration after.