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5-7: "At the Codfish Ball" 2012.04.29


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#541

fashionista79

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 3:25 PM

As someone else said, she might just have found herself needing cash she didn't have. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was a set up where Megan considerd the money she made "her money" while Don's salary was "their money." And Megan's money was reserved only for things she did for herself/entertainment or whatever. Like throwing Don's surprise party (so he doesn't know about it) or buying her wardrobe. That seems very common, especially on TV.

That would be interesting if that were the case between Don and Megan. I guess I'm still trying to reconcile if the plan was for shopping to be done that day (I have to rewatch to get a refresher on which day the shopping excursion took place) and the money-asking occurred on another day. Emile's visit to his publisher (the day Megan also asked Don for money?) was on Friday? And the women's shopping trip for gowns was Saturday? Or did the money asking also happen on the shopping trip day? I'm wondering because if they both occurred on the same day, wouldn't that mean that Megan had cash at her disposal anyway?

When Don tells her it's a good idea, she asks him to take the credit because she believes that if the idea is perceived as hers, it will be dismissed. The theme of the season is "every man for himself." The idea that Stan or Ginzo would shoot down a good idea because it came from someone they don't like or respect, even if it's bad for the agency, seems totally consistent with all the infighting we've seen.

I wonder if they would have though. I mean, their frustrations with Megan being Don's wife are real (and I think somewhat justified), but Stan, even in his anger, was able to concede that her pitch for Heinz was better than theirs. I think ever since his weekend with Peggy in the the hotel room, Stan has rethought being dismissive of someone's ideas simply because he doesn't get along with them. And we really haven't seen Stan not getting along with Megan; he's cordial to her, if anything. So, I think it was Megan's own fear that prevented her from even going through the proper channels for pitching ideas because she's insecure in her position as junior copywriter whose husband's name also happens to be on the lobby door.

#542

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 3:27 PM

If we find out that Megan is someone who has been faking her way through life and is scared she'll be found out, then this episode would make sense. Same way Dick's been playing the role of Don the entire time.

Just wish I knew what her father was talking about in regard to her giving up or settling for the easy way.

#543

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 3:28 PM

The shopping trip had to take place on Saturday, because Don was still in his robe when they came back.

#544

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 3:43 PM

As near as I can tell, the Calvets arrived on Wednesday. The money conversation occurs in bed after dinner Wednesday night, in response to Don's telling Megan that her parents have agreed to take the kids sight-seeing the next day while he and Megan are at work. The Heinz dinner (when the Calvets stay with the kids) is Thursday evening. The meeting and pitch celebration (which Peggy walks in on very late) occur Friday morning. I don't think we're shown what happens Friday evening, or maybe I've just forgotten. Shopping takes place Saturday morning and the ACS ball Saturday evening.

Since is it a fairly long schlep from Manhattan to Rye, the kids presumably are getting a couple of unscheduled holidays from school on Thurs/Fri, with Betty and Henry returning on Sunday or so?

#545

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 4:12 PM

I think ever since his weekend with Peggy in the the hotel room, Stan has rethought being dismissive of someone's ideas simply because he doesn't get along with them.


My mileage varies - I think Peggy earned his respect by calling his bluff and being good at her job. She's one of the guys now. Stan is still a male chauvinist pig at heart ("it's not fair that just because you're a boob-carrying consumer that your opinion should mean more").

Nor can I reconcile the tone of his "do you really think it's her idea?" and "it's better than what we have" comments with the notion that Stan had any respect for Megan as a colleague before the Heinz idea. And the thought of living in a universe in which yet another woman, especially THAT woman, might actually have talent after all seems to fill him with dread and loathing ;)

#546

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 4:26 PM

I think that Stan's main problem is he still sees Peggy naked every time he looks at her. He probably wishes he didn't, but alas.

#547

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 4:37 PM

The meeting and pitch celebration (which Peggy walks in on very late) occur Friday morning. I don't think we're shown what happens Friday evening, or maybe I've just forgotten. Shopping takes place Saturday morning and the ACS ball Saturday evening.

You're correct. After the celebration at the office, the next scene we see is Don in his bathrobe at the apartment Sat morning.


Nor can I reconcile the tone of his "do you really think it's her idea?" and "it's better than what we have" comments with the notion that Stan had any respect for Megan as a colleague before the Heinz idea.

I agree. I was just scanning previous eps trying to find examples of Stan badmouthing Megan -- like I believe he said, "So SHE gets to go to casting calls?" -- when i came to the ep where Peggy is looking at Ginsberg's book. She says his work is the best she's seen, and Stan says, "This is why girls don't play sports. You been working on Heinz for 4 months. Somebody else is going to carry the ball over the goal line?" It's was a nice setup to Stan's reaction to Megan carrying the ball over the goal line.

I did come across Stan's line, "She should have just rolled over and said, 'Don, what do you zink of ziss?'"

#548

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 4:47 PM

Since is it a fairly long schlep from Manhattan to Rye

Yes, in so many ways.
Grandma Calvet is sleek, fashionable, sexual Manhattan, but "dirty."
Grandma Francis is frumpy, old-fashioned, "set the table" Rye.

It must be an eye-opener for Sally, who had no grandparents just a short time ago, to have two polar opposite step-grandmothers now.

#549

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 5:12 PM

Nor can I reconcile the tone of his "do you really think it's her idea?" and "it's better than what we have" comments with the notion that Stan had any respect for Megan as a colleague before the Heinz idea. And the thought of living in a universe in which yet another woman, especially THAT woman, might actually have talent after all seems to fill him with dread and loathing ;)



I don't agree. He seems more supportive of Peggy than ever (he did actually advise Peggy not to hire Ginzo because he could become her boss some day) and even though the advise was cynical it was good advice, and he clearly had her best interest at heart. I truly believe any problem he may have with Megan is because he feels threatened for Peggy, even if Peggy isn't threatened herself. And Stan never dismissed Peggy as a professional. As a woman, yes, in "Waldorf Stories", but he was always respectfull towards her work. And him admiting that Megan's idea was good, no matter how reluctantly, is quite the opposite of what an insecure mysoginist would say.

The fact that he is a man makes it easier to label him as a sexist chauvinist because he doesn't like Megan. Yet, I'm a woman, a modern, liberal one at that and I would react the same way he and Ginzo have. Not proud of it or ashamed, but it is how it is. Nepotism just isnt my cup of tea.


I think Stan had made a couple of derogatory comments thruout the season about her. I can't recall if Michael said anything negative about her.



The only remark I've heard from Stan about Megan is asking Peggy "She goes to castings now?" in "Far away places".That's the only time I've heard him saying anything dismisive of Megan. And there was definetly some tension when he congratulated her, when she said it was only beginers luck and he didn't deny it.But that's pretty much it. I believe the "Bosses wife" comment from last episode came from Ginzo.


and Stan says, "This is why girls don't play sports. You been working on Heinz for 4 months. Somebody else is going to carry the ball over the goal line?" It's was a nice setup to Stan's reaction to Megan carrying the ball over the goal line.


Again, YMMV, but I always took this as him being supportive of Peggy. First of, they were talking about Ginzburg here, a man. He didn't want a MAN to get Peggy's job, the same way he doesnt want a woman to get it.

Edited by Bawoman, May 2, 2012 @ 5:20 PM.


#550

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 5:32 PM

There is room for both Peggy and Megan at the agency, one position does not have to come at the expense of the other, nor has it/nor is it. Peggy's position (which she accidentally fell into and then had to prove herself) is still very secure, the agency heads love her, and the only way she would put herself in jeopardy is if she continues to try to pull off things like in the Heinz presentation. There was also nothing wrong with Megan bouncing an idea off her husband, which Don also happens to be, as a test audience, even though he is also the creative head. He is, as her spouse, also a legitimate sounding board for her, and I am pretty sure Megan knows she can count on him to be straight with her as far as agency related stuff, but as her spouse, to cushion rejection in a way that wouldn't humiliate her if it was a bad idea.

And after that Heinz presentation, and Peggy was pulled off the account, how could Stan possibly even think that Peggy even had a shot at "carrying it over the goal line" anymore anyway?

#551

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 5:38 PM

There is room for both Peggy and Megan at the agency, one position does not have to come at the expense of the other, nor has it/nor is it.


Stan is just being territorial for Peggy. Maybe not for the Heinz account anymore, but in general. I agree that there is room for both Megan and Peggy. But Stan doesn't see it that way.

Edited by Bawoman, May 2, 2012 @ 5:44 PM.


#552

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 5:41 PM

And in "Tea Leaves," Peggy also tossed aside a portfolio because it might have belonged to a woman. I wasn't sure what to read into her support of Megan in this episode, in light of that.

#553

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 5:46 PM

And in "Tea Leaves," Peggy also tossed aside a portfolio because it might have belonged to a woman. I wasn't sure what to read into her support of Megan in this episode, in light of that.

That was because Roger had specifically asked her to find "someone with a penis".I'm sure she would have hired a woman in a second if that hadn't been the case.

Edited by Bawoman, May 2, 2012 @ 5:47 PM.


#554

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 5:49 PM

And in "Tea Leaves," Peggy also tossed aside a portfolio because it might have belonged to a woman. I wasn't sure what to read into her support of Megan in this episode, in light of that.


I think Peggy was being ironic, since she knew Roger specifically asked for a copy writer with "a penis" and no matter how good the woman who belonged to that portfolio was, she didn't stand a chance.

#555

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 5:50 PM

and Stan says, "This is why girls don't play sports. You been working on Heinz for 4 months. Somebody else is going to carry the ball over the goal line?" It's was a nice setup to Stan's reaction to Megan carrying the ball over the goal line.

Again, YMMV, but I always took this as him being supportive of Peggy. First of, they were talking about Ginzburg here, a man. He didn't want a MAN to get Peggy's job, the same way he doesnt want a woman to get it.

I agree that when he said that he was being supportive of Peggy. I didn't say otherwise. Stan was talking about Peggy making the mistake of cheering on ANY good copywriter. Of course Megan wasn't in the (copywriting) picture yet, but she -- whether good or just lucky -- did score the goal.

When Peggy congratulates Megan, she is cheering on all of womanhood. Peggy had been bolstered by Joan, and now Peggy is supporting Megan. She said, "This is good for me." What's good for one woman is good for all. It's not Stan's philosophy.

#556

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 6:13 PM

Even if he had, it might not have mattered. This guy's product line responsibilities are small beans (pun intended) to HJ Heinz. If he had been in charge of a more lucrative product line, I guarantee you he would not have been that hokey and he would have been able to articulate what he was expecting.

Just think about how businesses are going to look at their products through Don's newly-enlightened viewpoint:

Auto manufacturers: Don could turn on them for making unsafe products.

Real estate developers: Remember the Penn Station/Madison Square Garden controversy? Don could turn on a developer for any controversy attached to them.

Food companies: Beans are fairly safe, but sugar makes you fat and rots your teeth. Don't trust Don to promote an unhealthy food.

Chemical companies: In the late 60's, they were destroying the planet. I hope Don approves of that.

Thanks to Don's sour grapes letter, more corporations would feel comfortable around Ralph Nader than Don Draper. How could they know he won't turn on them later?

And not to nitpick, but this brings to mind another point. A product manager is charged with preserving the integrity of the overall brand and within that, he/she needs to promote the product line. This guy is a loose cannon. Either Heinz wasn't and still isn't set up that way, or they really couldn't care less about this red-headed stepchild of a product line and tossed this guy over there until he's up for retirement.

I don't think I understand this. Proctor and Gamble has dozens of products but each product promotes its brand name against other P&G products, not the P&G brand name. Heinz on the other hand puts its name on everything it sells but that created a problem: to most people Heinz was ketchup and Heinz 57 sauce, not beans.

The problem Mr. Beans was facing was how to sell a yummy bean product without accidentally promoting Heinz's well-known sauces. He may have had pressure from above to emphasize the Heinz name ("Our name sells!") or he may have had pressure from above for the bean division to sell as well as the sauces division. Or maybe both -- contradictory orders would explain his inability to make a decision. Peggy's first pitch focused on the beans and he didn't like it. Her second pitch focused on the Heinz name and he didn't like it.

If the season one or season two Don Draper had been in charge, I would have expected something larger like giving Heinz's bean product a distinctive name and promoting that. That's exactly what Van Camps did, creating "Beenie Weenee" and "New Orleans Style Beans".

#557

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 6:20 PM

When Peggy congratulates Megan, she is cheering on all of womanhood. Peggy had been bolstered by Joan, and now Peggy is supporting Megan. She said, "This is good for me." What's good for one woman is good for all. It's not Stan's philosophy.



I get what you're saying, and it does make sense. Still, I'm not sure if we can hold not sharing that philosophy against Stan. "What's good for one woman is good for all" sounds nice, and I do think it was an important factor in the emergence of the feminist movement, and it certainly makes me happy and proud when people of my own sex achieve something through hard work and struggle. But it's not a philosophy I would live by now, probably because I don't see it as necessary as it was then. Now women have reached a level were we can compete and be shrew just like men were always able to. Yipee!

Edited by Bawoman, May 2, 2012 @ 6:22 PM.


#558

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 6:21 PM

There is room for both Peggy and Megan at the agency, one position does not have to come at the expense of the other, nor has it/nor is it. .... There was also nothing wrong with Megan bouncing an idea off her husband, which Don also happens to be, as a test audience, even though he is also the creative head.


There is definitely room for both Peggy and Megan at the agency. The women, however, are polar opposites. Peggy is rather plain and her clothes and hair are dowdy. She is "shacking up" while she'd rather be engaged. Peggy fell into her job but has put in long hours to keep it. She is willing to stay up all night, even if she isn't taking all of Roger's cash to do it. She is also proud of her work. Megan is French, pretty and has stylish, flattering outfits and hair styles. She slept her way up in the company, but still managed to marry her boss. Partly because of Don, she works her own hours and barely spends time with the creative team. Megan rarely works at night, which is her choice since she could take work home. Her "brilliant idea" for the Heinz ad team was an random thought, finished in the shower. She is one lucky girl. But Megan doesn't seem happy that she had such a successful start. She may follow up on this, or she may be a one hit wonder. I don't think she cares much one way or the other.
I never bought Megan,the naive au pair for whom Don fell for without any wiles. Her Father has affairs with his students, so that can explain her attraction to an older man. But Matt Weiner hasn't filled in much about her traits and values. She is almost a blank canvas. Megan is so bland now, that I'd like to see a dark side to her.

#559

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 6:47 PM

Girls of that generation (and Sally's generation as well) were still brought up to buy the fantasies about the proposal, the ring, the wedding, the dress, etc. Peggy may be more "like a man" when it comes to work, but given when and how she was raised, I don't think she has a vision of what a different life from her mother's would look like. She sees bits and pieces of it, I am sure, but otherwise she is stepping out into the great unknown.


Not just Sally's generation, but women today, too. Say Yes to the Dress, anyone?

By the way, something about Sally and fish bothered me. I thought she ate fish - didn't she ask for a tuna sandwich a few episodes ago? Or are meant to understand that she only eats the canned variety (and perhaps the frozen food aisle variety) but not whole fish/fish fillets?

#560

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 7:15 PM

But Megan doesn't seem happy that she had such a successful start.


I think Megan was very happy about her success but reluctant to show it out of modesty or because she was afraid the others would see it as bragging or gloating. If you look carefully at the scene with Peggy, after being encouraged to enjoy her triumph she walks away with a huge smile on her face.

#561

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 7:15 PM

I eat tuna salad but not fish -- it tastes too "fishy."

I took Megan's request for cash as just that, she doesn't tend to carry cash with her, maybe she even banks her paycheck every week without taking money out. She pays her department store bills with credit cards, I'm sure, although at this point I assume they are addressed to "Mrs. Donald Draper." Think about it -- she's always with Don, does she ever go out to lunch with "the girls" as women in offices do? Whether it's secretaries with other secretaries, or teachers with other teachers, most women from time to time go out for lunch on payday. Who would Megan go to lunch with? Don, and he pays.

I'm thinking that Megan's dreams must have been something that her father would have respected, and thus wouldn't have been capitalist or artistic. Maybe academic? She was going to be a professor, writer, even Ph.D. in some field? It would take many years of struggle to get a penthouse in Manhattan on a teacher's salary.

By the way, Mr. Beans, the pitch you bought was completely the opposite of what you were asking from Peggy. No college students, no protesting, pure nostalgia from the caveman days. I guess the irony will hit you sometime in 2013.

#562

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 8:32 PM

Stan is just being territorial for Peggy. Maybe not for the Heinz account anymore, but in general. I agree that there is room for both Megan and Peggy. But Stan doesn't see it that way.


Plus, given the state of the agency they'd all--except for Peggy who's particularly protective of Don--have reason to be grumbling things like Stan did about Megan. Don hired her because she was his wife, Don's checked out as a boss and Megan comes and goes with Don while they have to like whatever she does. He's naturally cynical about the arrangement and is looking out for ways that Don's private life is going to affect the agency again.

Leaving aside for a moment that Megan's idea was a good one, the account was still a disaster. Don left Peggy twisting in the wind with her apparently good idea about the bean ballet, he skipped out on the second meeting when Peggy upset the client (but cared enough to approve the junior cpoywriter going to casting) and then, after they worked late coming up with another pitch suddenly got re-engaged with the whole thing because while their ideas don't interest him any more, Megan's do.

I don't think Stan's got that much against Megan or women in the workplace--he's not super progressive or anything, but he does seem to work with Peggy fine now. I think he thinks the situation is ridiculous and probably sees it in a sexist way, with Don creating a job for his wife so he doesn't start off assuming Megan is talented. He snarks about Megan rather than alpha dog Don.

By the way, Mr. Beans, the pitch you bought was completely the opposite of what you were asking from Peggy. No college students, no protesting, pure nostalgia from the caveman days. I guess the irony will hit you sometime in 2013.


Yup. Like he said--"stop writing down what I say and tell me what I want" or whatever he said. And at dinner he was still reluctant but the combination of Don and his wife put it over the top. If Peggy had pitched the exact same thing in that last meeting it still would have ended in Peggy "losing the business."

Edited by Sister Magpie, May 2, 2012 @ 9:03 PM.


#563

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 8:49 PM

It probably was for our enjoyment that a fish with a face was presented as the only entree at the Cancer Society dinner, so we could watch Sally deal with it. Maybe that was an event entree in Stockholm, but no way in Manhattan in the 60s. If there was only one choice, it was usually a beef dish, something "Continental" sounding like beef bourguignon or strogonoff, so that men didn't complain. Ladies-only luncheons might serve fish, but then it would be a filet or more likely a shrimp dish, not a whole fish. But who cares since it was such fun to watch Sally work it.

I remember going to a charity event around 1970 in midtown, where I was told the buffet included tuna. I kept looking for a salad or something made with canned tunafish and that was the night I discovered there was another whole world out there, where fish could be rare and pink and cold. I was 22 and Sally will be more sophisticated than that by 13.

#564

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 8:58 PM

Plus, given the state of the agency they'd all--except for Peggy who's particularly protective of Don--have reason to be grumbling things like Stan did about Megan. Don hired her because she was his wife, Don's checked out as a boss and Megan comes and goes with Don while they have to like whatever she does. He's naturally cynical about the arrangement and is looking out for ways that Don's private life is going to affect the agency again.


I agree, and I think many of us would be cynical in that situation. That's why I don't agree in blaming misogyny for the men not being 100% overjoyed about Megan.


Now, maybe I'm wrong and it will turn out he does have a growing hostility for Megan herself that'll be really misogynistic


God, I hope not. If Stan is thrown under the bus just so that Megan can yet again be martyrized, I really don't think I would be able to take much more.

Edited by Bawoman, May 2, 2012 @ 8:59 PM.


#565

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 9:32 PM

Re: Maman Calvet.
I posted earlier that she was sick, projected some stuff about smoking & cancer, etc.
Then I read posts such as this, referring to Mme C:

I think Megan loves her mom and her mom can be charming and fun so she is probably delightful to talk to on the phone. But as the child of an alcoholic she has also resigned herself to the bad parts. It felt like weariness more than anything.


I watched Mme C drinking heavily,but I did not put together she was so drunk she fell asleep w/a lit cigarette in her hand. An eye-opening series of posts for me, especially since I grew up in an alcoholic household & have been sober for many years - yipe. I simply did not see how drunk she was, & attributed her behavior to something more dramatic. Once again MW et al go rather deeply into the wonderful world of active addiction. A lot of layers in some deptivey straightforward scenes. Ormond played a drunk quite convincingly.

Re: "Creepy" Glen - I am in the camp that attributes his odd dissociated state and 'dead eyes' to his being an interesting and skilled actor. Directors' children can often be skilled actors and portray both interesting & repellent characters - Anjelica Huston comes to mind. Of note, none of Sally & Glen's multiple parents have any idea of the extent of their communications; and Sally has always been quite willing to meet him in his weirdness - keeping the lanyard he made for her & crying when he moved away.

Sally very well may share her vision of Roger and Mme C with Glen before anyone else - he will likely understand how strange it was for her, given their shared cynicism about divorced parents, Bluto grandmas, siblings, etc.

Edited by brooklynbull, May 2, 2012 @ 11:38 PM.


#566

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 10:51 PM

Still, I'm not sure if we can hold not sharing that philosophy against Stan.

I get the feeling that his feelings about Megan's sudden success will become significant later.

#567

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 6:07 AM

Abe had no idea she expected a proposal - I think he has every reason to believe she'd decline if he dared. His face was red and he was nervous has hell asking her to live together.


He was extremely nervous when he asked her but I don't think it was because he thought she'd say no to a marriage proposal. In Abe's mind, his proposal was tantamount to a marriage proposal. He's not bound by the rules other people blindly follow. Jews are not supposed to eat pork yet Peggy's ham is his favorite meal. He wants a committed relationship with Peggy but doesn't need a marriage license as proof.

#568

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 6:32 AM

Jews are not supposed to eat pork yet Peggy's ham is his favorite meal.


Again, this is not quite correct: Jews who are kosher are not supposed to eat pork. Plenty of Conservative and Reformed Jews are not kosher. We have no idea about Abe's background, but even if his parents are Orthodox or even Hasidim (which, even though there are plenty in NYC, I somehow doubt), he himself clearly is not.

Edited because it's good to close your italics tag.

Edited by Ms. Poly Theist, May 3, 2012 @ 6:33 AM.


#569

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 7:29 AM

Thanks to Don's sour grapes letter, more corporations would feel comfortable around Ralph Nader than Don Draper. How could they know he won't turn on them later?


He should change his name again! Welcome to Sterling Cooper Whitman Pryce!

By the way, something about Sally and fish bothered me. I thought she ate fish - didn't she ask for a tuna sandwich a few episodes ago? Or are meant to understand that she only eats the canned variety (and perhaps the frozen food aisle variety) but not whole fish/fish fillets?


Seems like she's very specific about how food is prepared. She likes sweet potatoes, but NOT with marshmallows. She likes tuna salad, but NOT with relish. She probably likes baked fish, but NOT with scales. I'm actually a little surprised that Betty allowed her to become such a picky eater. It seems like one of those things the Hofstadts wouldn't tolerate, like small talk at the dinner table.

#570

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 7:45 AM

There are lots of kids who like tuna sandwiches and fish sticks but "won't eat fish." I used to be one of them. And as an adult, I don't like relish in my tuna nor marshmallows on my sweet potatoes, but I'm not a picky eater. However, since we've seen a few scenes with Sally where food was an issue, I wonder if there's relevance or if it's just being truthful to how many kids are. Also, it's a handy way to set up little conflicts betw Sally and adults around her.