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24-11: "Never Say Die" 2012.04.25


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#181

Constantinople

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 9:01 AM

As for why Christina has been outcast, I think the main reason is she wasn't part of Alicia's instant 5 alliance on Day One. People being people, they tend to find reasons for why the excluded person deserves to be excluded even if the same behavior by an insider wouldn't be criticized. Outsiders are sneaky, insiders are strategic; outsiders are crazy, insiders are eccentric; outsiders are meek or passive, insiders are thoughtful and patient.

I think there is too much smoke, from too many places, not to have at least a little bit of a fire here. She was not an "outcast" as far as Troy and Greg are concerned, yet Troy doesn't like her and Greg singled her out as the one person he wouldn't be friends with IRL. Someone in a secret scene mentioned that she talks nonstop and it's irritating.



Greg/Tarzan has had problems with pretty much everyone, except perhaps Kim. That Tarzan has had problems with Christina is no evidence, IMO, that there's fire.

Troy/Troyzan never thought of Christina as an ally since Christina was part of nuManano and Troyzan thought he was part of a nuSalani alliance. Moreover, Troy/Troyzan & Christina have been competing for next boot and that's bound to cause some friction.

As for Christina's alleged non-stop talking, that doesn't contradict my point, that when an outsider and insider engage in the same behavior, the outsider is scorned and the insider is praised or tolerated. Moreover, since Christina is an outsider, the insiders may have a much lower tolerance for her talking than they would an insider (shades of Chelsea telling Troyzan to take it like a man, i.e. to shut-up). And this being Survivor, sooner or later everyone gets irritated with everyone else at some point.

That's an interesting hypothesis, Constantinople, and it may have some merit (though I wonder why the contempt seemed to extend to the feelings of the men as well).


All of the men thought they were either part of the nuSalani alliance, to which Christina was an outsider, or were part of the existing majority alliance on oldManano that carried over to nuManano, to which Christina was also an outsider.

As for racism, Alicia of the slitty eye gestures put together the original women's alliance on Day 1, so I think it's fair to attribute Christina's outsider status, at least in part, to racism. This doesn't mean that anyone else is racist, just that, once Christina became an outsider, the momentum of tribal dynamics kept pushing her away.

#182

musica

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 9:07 AM

As for Christina's alleged non-stop talking, that doesn't contradict my point, that when an outsider and insider engage in the same behavior, the outsider is scorned and the insider is praised or tolerated. Moreover, since Christina is an outsider, the insiders may have a much lower tolerance for her talking than they would an insider (shades of Chelsea telling Troyzan to take it like a man, i.e. to shut-up). And this being Survivor, sooner or later everyone gets irritated with everyone else at some point.


I agree with this very much. I just think Christina is a wannabe among players. I just think, she might be too nice? I really do not know, but I do not think she is a bad person because she is not in the main group. It's just the way it worked out this time.

I'm still hoping at one point she get her revenge over Alicia. If she do not win the game, I just hope Christina make sure Alicia do not win it either for a variety of reasons.

Edited by musica, Apr 27, 2012 @ 9:08 AM.


#183

Madhoo

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 11:22 AM

Because Troyzan himself was such a good sport last week when he won with his "THIS IS MY ISLAND!" and "Don't fuck with me!" BS. I think it was very much deserved when they basically did the same to him this week. Reaping what one sows cannot be pretty.


For one thing, I expect people who are already holding an upper hand to be more gracious than someone who is clearly the underdog and fighting for survival. This is one reason why I would never compare Kim to Yul or Earl - she has never had to be in the minority and fight for her survival. Yul and Earl took crappy situations and turned them into wins. Much respect to them!

#184

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 11:35 AM

This is one reason why I would never compare Kim to Yul or Earl - she has never had to be in the minority and fight for her survival. Yul and Earl took crappy situations and turned them into wins. Much respect to them!


But isn't it the mark of a great player that you never allowed yourself you get in a crappy situation that forced you to overcome adversity?

#185

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:06 PM

But isn't it the mark of a great player that you never allowed yourself you get in a crappy situation that forced you to overcome adversity?


Sure, but good fortune counts for a lot in Survivor. Yul and Earl took bad fortune (mutinies and whatnot) and turned it against their opponents. Kim hasn't faced any sort of adversity similar to those two.

Alternatively, Kim was very fortunate she got to keep 4/5's of her alliance when the tribes were first altered, and with which men her tribe was paired with, she's lucky there was such an early tribal shake-up in the first place, she's lucky the men were so intent on volunteering for tribal council, she's lucky so many of the men seemed to hate each other from the get-go, she benefited from Colton be medically evacuated, etc.

I don't want to take away from her game play because it has been impressive, and I think she's putting forth one of the five or six best debut runs ever on Survivor (even though I think her opposition is sort of awful). But all of the above examples happened outside of her influence, she's just managed (expertly) to take advantage of them. A lot of people throughout Survivor history who've also benefited from such good fortune, have failed to do the same.

Edited by RadarBlip, Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:07 PM.


#186

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:08 PM

I think it's interesting that many/most people are attributing Sab telling Christina about the voting situation and Christina telling Troy about the fact that she was getting votes to stupidity/being timid/being led by Kim. I say "interesting" because that didn't actually occur to me until I started reading it here - until then I attributed both situations to being flat-out tired and making a mental mistake. And I still think that's more likely, especially with Sabrina. Many former players have talked about how it just gets harder and harder to think straight the longer the game goes.


Upthread there was a discussion about how we've only really seen Christina being picked on without knowing why specifically. I wonder if it's because she's the "underdog" who makes final three and if we knew why she was picked on we might not root for her. What I mean is, say Christina is actually the most irritating human ever but for whatever reason the editors want us to be happy she made final three (over Alica perhaps?) and if she irritated us we wouldn't cheer her on. Just a thought.


I think Chelsea's actually being smart to not make a move on Kim right now - what I don't know is if Chelsea's doing it on purpose. If Chelsea got everyone to take Kim out because Kim's the powerhouse then wouldn't the group then just think that Chelsea was the new powerhouse and take her out? If fact, didn't Sabrina say pretty much the same thing as a reason not to team up with Troy? If Chelsea were to make a move against Kim it would almost have to be at final four.


Just reading between the lines of the insider stuff combined with what we've been shown it sure seems like Chelsea, Sabrina, Kat, and Alicia think they're in the final three with Kim. And I'm willing to bet that by that point of the game each one of that group had what they thought would be a convincing final tribal council argument as to why they should win over Kim. Well, all except maybe Kat. That's the reason I don't think there will be a move made against Kim - pretty much everyone thinks they're in the F3 and can win and they don't want to do anything that would mess that up.


This probably makes me a bad person but...while 99.9% of me really, really dislikes Alicia I did enjoy her yelling "This is my island!" when Troy was taken out of the reward challenge.

#187

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:09 PM

But isn't it the mark of a great player that you never allowed yourself you get in a crappy situation that forced you to overcome adversity?


Possibly. But at the same time, it could just be Kim is playing against inferior players. I haven't watched the show that long, but I don't see a Matt, Ozzy, Sophie, even a Jim or Cochran from last season at least trying to do something.

For goodness sakes, for all his bravado, Troy could not even win the IC which would have kept him in the game--with Tarzan beating him, too! So if Troy being a bad sport at the Ponderosa, he need to sit down and reflect. He had a chance, but he blew it. How is the saying, if he is going to talk the talk, he had better walk the walk, or something like that? If he gonna be arrogant as a competitor, then it would be nice to have something to be arrogant about otherwise, he need to be quiet, I think.

It was all fine and good, Troy was calling-out and undermining Kim at the end, trying to tell most of the players what they probably already knew or suspected deep down. But too little, too late, I think.

The question is will they do anything to try to stop the train even perhaps flushing out her HII before they get to the final immunity challenge, or are they going to hope they can just win immunity at the end, and take her out at the last minute. If these people think they have a shot at winning against Kim in the FTC, I just do not see it happening, but I guess stranger things have happened, maybe?

Right now, I just don't see that Kim has been challenged by anyone except for a brief moment by Troy. It just might be editiing, except for Kat sort of grumbling, nobody else has shown anything sort of resistance.

Edited by musica, Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:21 PM.


#188

SpeciousLogic

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:26 PM

Just reading between the lines of the insider stuff combined with what we've been shown it sure seems like Chelsea, Sabrina, Kat, and Alicia think they're in the final three with Kim. And I'm willing to bet that by that point of the game each one of that group had what they thought would be a convincing final tribal council argument as to why they should win over Kim. Well, all except maybe Kat. That's the reason I don't think there will be a move made against Kim - pretty much everyone thinks they're in the F3 and can win and they don't want to do anything that would mess that up.


I think it's possible that they are thinking to let Kim be the bad cop when the backstabbings are done, and play up her "betrayal" at FTC. Since most of the jury (except Jonas, possibly Leif, and probably Christina if she's there) thinks they had some sort of agreement with Kim at one point or another, she will almost certainly be seen as the one who orchestrated their booting from a position of trust. And the rest of the core may be counting on a jury where many will vote against Kim for that reason.

It's not an unreasonable strategy; it's worked before. And if they all feel they can beat Kim for that reason, they won't be looking to knock Kim out. They'll assume they have a good thing going.

We may think the jury will reward Kim's strategic play, but we don't know that for certain. One really bad/bitter apple can poison the jury against her. I think it's far too early to crown Kim the winner, even if she does make FTC.


Right now, I just don't see that Kim has been challenged by anyone except for a brief moment by Troy. It just might be editiing, except for Kat sort of grumbling, nobody else has shown anything sort of resistance.


Many of them did not see their boot coming, so weren't really in a frame of mind to be challenging Kim in the first place. Jonas was trying, but in doing so he showed himself to be a threat to Kim, and was summarily booted. Mike was blindsided, as was Jay, both of whom thought they were going to go a lot further with Kim. Don't know what Leif was thinking; he truly seems to be the inferior player who was no threat to anyone.

Troy did have more than "one brief moment". Once he saw the tea leaves after the Jay booting, he was constantly trying to stir up the other forces against Kim's core. He seemed pretty relentless to me, and Kim was shown to be scrambling to cover her bases. His failure doesn't necessarily mean he was bad at it, as that sort of argument certainly could have (and has) swayed people in previous seasons; it could simply be that Kim has such a lockdown on those loyal to her that nothing Troy said or did was going to sway them. If Kim has convinced them that they have a good F3 deal with her, and they think they can beat her at FTC, why would any of them flip, regardless of what Troy said?

Even if/when Troy pointed out that they couldn't all be F3 with Kim, if each of them felt that she personally was definitely in and Kim was just leading the others on with false promises, why would that cause anyone to flip? Maybe Kim has managed each of them so well with "I've promised F3 to X, but that's just to keep her in line. Trust me, we're together all the way." type talk, and they know the others have been promised F3 but don't care, because they each trust Kim more than they trust anyone else.

Troy can make the most compelling argument possible, even promising people F3, etc. -- but if they trust Kim more than they trust Troy, why would they go with him instead?

ETA:

Since Jay was just voted-out before Troy, it was a brief a moment in my opinion. It wasn't that long between boots in real-time, no?


He had a full 6 days (he won immunity after Jay, forcing Kim's group to send Leif home instead), which IMO should be plenty of time to force a mutiny if one was going to happen.

Edited by SpeciousLogic, Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:51 PM.


#189

musica

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:40 PM

I think it's possible that they are thinking to let Kim be the bad cop when the backstabbings are done, and play up her "betrayal" at FTC. Since most of the jury (except Jonas, possibly Leif, and probably Christina if she's there) thinks they had some sort of agreement with Kim at one point or another, she will almost certainly be seen as the one who orchestrated their booting from a position of trust. And the rest of the core may be counting on a jury where many will vote against Kim for that reason.

It's not an unreasonable strategy; it's worked before. And if they all feel they can beat Kim for that reason, they won't be looking to knock Kim out. They'll assume they have a good thing going.

We may think the jury will reward Kim's strategic play, but we don't know that for certain. One really bad/bitter apple can poison the jury against her. I think it's far too early to crown Kim the winner, even if she does make FTC.


This is all very true, but at this point, I just have not seen any of them display any persuasive talent against Kim. I think Kim is very smart and articulate. Plus, she is physically strong, too, and could very well rack up more IC wins.

Troyzan seem to be very angry, and I guess he could poison the jury against her.

But then again, Kim is a pretty cool-headed competitor. I do not think she is the best. survivor. player. ever even based upon the few seasons I've watched. But she is definitely a good player, positioning herself for win.

I still say, unless her chosen final 3 want to do some scrambling at FTC, it would be safer to take her out, but YMMV.

Troy did have more than "one brief moment". Once he saw the tea leaves after the Jay booting, he was constantly trying to stir up the other forces against Kim's core. He seemed pretty relentless to me, and Kim was shown to be scrambling to cover her bases. His failure doesn't necessarily mean he was bad at it, as that sort of argument certainly could have (and has) swayed people in previous seasons; it could simply be that Kim has such a lockdown on those loyal to her that nothing Troy said or did was going to sway them. If Kim has convinced them that they have a good F3 deal with her, and they think they can beat her at FTC, why would any of them flip, regardless of what Troy said?...

He had a full 6 days (he won immunity after Jay, forcing Kim's group to send Leif home instead), which IMO should be plenty of time to force a mutiny if one was going to happen.



I forgot about Leif already, poor fellow!

Nonetheless, I still think it was too little too late. 3 days or 6 days did not matter because as I said, I have a feeling they already know Kim is in charge. Again, it depend whether or not they decide to take her out or use her as goat in certain respects. I stand by my opinion, sooner or later would be better to take her out, and I agree going with Troy's plan would have not been the best idea. Honestly, I just don't think using Kim as goat is the best strategy, but ymmv. I will concede that it is easier to be armchair quarterback led by editing of a TV show for entertainment than it is to be in the midst of the "game" as it really played-out. So there is probably a lot we don't see, too.

Edited to correct time line.

Edited by musica, Apr 27, 2012 @ 1:02 PM.


#190

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 1:07 PM

It was all fine and good, Troy was calling-out and undermining Kim at the end, trying to tell most of the players what they probably already knew or suspected deep down. But too little, too late, I think.

I think he assumed, as I did, that the "outcasts" would see the advantage of organizing against the core 4. When he realized he had to sell that idea, it was indeed too late.

#191

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 1:20 PM

I think he assumed, as I did, that the "outcasts" would see the advantage of organizing against the core 4. When he realized he had to sell that idea, it was indeed too late.


I was just going to come-back to add, I just do not think to dump Kim and align with Troy would have necessarily been the best strategy either. Of course, Troy wanted to save himself, so yeah he was going to do and say whatever he could to remain. As far as I'm concerned, his only chance to remain in the game and possibly win was going on immunity challenge run, then beating Kim (since nobody has else has challenged her at this point)in the final immunity challenge.

I do like the fact, Troy actually brought-up the notion of getting rid of Kim, and acted upon it. But I also agree it is very true the rest might be biding their time or using her as goat. But I think Kim is looking like a formidable opponent at this point. The others have not really shown me anything yet. There is still time though.

It could all change in a moment, and it would be nice to see how Kim deals with true adversity because really unless he stuck around through winning IC, Troy's days were numbered.

Edited by musica, Apr 27, 2012 @ 1:27 PM.


#192

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 2:04 PM

Troy can make the most compelling argument possible, even promising people F3, etc. -- but if they trust Kim more than they trust Troy, why would they go with him instead?


That's kind of the point. Getting people to believe your bullshit is the mark of a good player, and believing that bullshit is the mark of a bad player. If Kat and Sabrina trust her and it ends up the whole time that she's been playing them, then they made the same mistake Jay and Mike did. They all will have been pawns; they just had the good fortune of being pawns less likely to go on an immunity run at the end.

#193

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 2:12 PM

Maybe Kim has managed each of them so well with "I've promised F3 to X, but that's just to keep her in line. Trust me, we're together all the way." type talk, and they know the others have been promised F3 but don't care, because they each trust Kim more than they trust anyone else.

It could also be that she's just letting them dream based solely on the rapport she's established with them. As far as I know, the only person she's explicitly made a F3 pact with is Sabrina. She may well have decided for herself about Chelsea, but as many of you have pointed out, Chelsea makes so much sense as a lightning rod, a potential goat, and symbol of Kim's loyalty that no promise is necessary.

If I were Kim, I'd be worried about four people turning on me as jurors: Troy, Kat, Alicia, and Chelsea. Sabrina won't like it, but since she's playing with the same mindset as Kim, I suspect she won't take it personally. And two of the others can be taken to F3, where they present little challenge.

If Jay and Mike weren't predisposed to hate Kim, I don't know what Troy could say to turn them. She's too strong? Her troops were mean to me? She doesn't get her hands dirty? None of this seems like jury poison.

#194

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 2:49 PM

It's actually one of the factors of why i really don't like this particular cast. They're playing a decent strategic game, which i'm enjoying, but there's not a person out there that i actually like. The nastiness and bullying of this cast has left me pretty disgusted with them. I haven't seen every single one of them behave this way, mind you, but a person who sees this behaviour and allows it to continue is just as guilty imo.


This is spot on, tezza. I would point out that Kim is at least as guilty as anyone (other than the really egregious ones like Colton, Alicia, and to a lesser extent Tarzan). I say that because she sort of casually said "Christina's used to seeing her name written down", and some other casual reference to Christina being kind of the omega (my term, but it's very fitting). No sense that Kim, out of pure humanity, had any compunctions about describing Christina this way.

I also agree with you, obviously, about Chelsea's nasty tweet, as I've said many times. The rebuttal we've heard is that "hey, Christina doesn't seem to be holding a grudge, so why should we?" I'm hoping that we have now seen enough evidence of Christina either being clueless, in denial, or just allowing herself to be a doormat, that this excuse won't be offered any more.

She is meticulous to the extent that anyone can be in the game.


I strenuously disagree. I think she is actually fairly sloppy, but gets away with it (so far) because of who she's dealing with.

Edited by neplusultra, Apr 27, 2012 @ 2:50 PM.


#195

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 2:53 PM

It could also be that she's just letting them dream based solely on the rapport she's established with them. As far as I know, the only person she's explicitly made a F3 pact with is Sabrina.



She didn't make this pact in confessional though, so I am a little skeptical if this is in fact her true plans. Regarding Chelsea, I just don't see how she is a goat. With the exception of Christina she appears to be well liked by all the women out there. If Kim did indeed promise each one F3 I could see a couple of them (Alicia, Kat) voting against her and sending their votes to Chelsea. Amonst the men I could see her picking up jay's vote as they seemed to be pretty close out these. Jonas is a possibility as well since she stuck up for him at TC when he got voted out. Do i think she wins? No. But I can see her picking up 3 or possibly even 4 votes. I can almost guarantee that Kim sees that as well.

#196

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 2:57 PM

No sense that Kim, out of pure humanity, had any concern about describing this way, beyond how it might affect her game.

The "pure humanity" moment was back when Colton and Alicia were ganging up on Christina, and I don't think anybody else in the Kim group was present for that. I lost all respect for the people who were there and for Chelsea (after the fact). But take away that ugliness and what you're left with is just Alicia being mean to Christina, which is pretty mundane for Survivor.

As for "Christina's used to seeing her name written down" -- well, she is. The only person who's responsible for doing something about that is Christina.

Edited by BurnXFreeze, Apr 27, 2012 @ 2:58 PM.


#197

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 3:08 PM

BurnXFreeze, I'm not talking about Kim failing to intervene or whatever; I'm saying that her own comments about Christina in the most recent episode were lacking in "pure humanity". I don't remember her exact words, but my paraphrase would be "we can get away with this, because Christina knows she's the omega, that no one really likes her, so she won't be shocked". (Not really relevant, but interesting as a side note, is that Christina seemed either not to be aware of this, or unwilling to admit it...either of which just makes the whole thing sadder.)

#198

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 3:28 PM

Chritina's anthematization (a word I just made up but it could be a word) is, for me, the second most mysterious thing about this season. No one likes her, some seem to hate her, at least at times, but I don't recall her doing anything objectionable except for standing up for herself against Alicia at their first TC, and that makes her aces in my book. I just don't understand how the editors could leave this without at least a token explanatory scene of confessional or... something that would shed some light on this. We're all just guessing about this and we're well into the season. I don't like it because to the viewer it just looks like everybody is bullying her and she is so meek and mild she doesn't object. Not fun to watch.

I agree, especially about the editors. If Christina had done anything remotely objectionable, annoying or hell, even interesting, wouldn't the editors have been all over that shit? God knows they pounce on any display of craziness, crankiness, what have you. Whatever's behind the whole dislike of Christina must be such a non-issue they don't even include it as part of the narrative. That seems to support the notion that Christina hasn't really done anything egregious enough to merit the unanimous dislike of her, and at least some of the tribe simply decided they didn't like her from Day 1, and the rest of them went along in group-think. If you're part of an alliance where one or two members are fixated on disliking someone you're probably not moved to defend that person since you figure, well, they're not in my alliance anyway so who cares?

In the end I have to figure that Christina is this season's Rick in that she's ultimately such a non-issue in the overall season the editors don't really even bother with her.

#199

musica

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:07 PM

BurnXFreeze, I'm not talking about Kim failing to intervene or whatever; I'm saying that her own comments about Christina in the most recent episode were lacking in "pure humanity". I don't remember her exact words, but my paraphrase would be "we can get away with this, because Christina knows she's the omega, that no one really likes her, so she won't be shocked". (Not really relevant, but interesting as a side note, is that Christina seemed either not to be aware of this, or unwilling to admit it...either of which just makes the whole thing sadder.)


For some reason, I did not catch Kim saying this. She make this comment behind the back of Christina, no?

Well, I think with the game of Survivor, a lot of things that happen in real life play-out. I just think Christina is not in the chosen group ultimately, and it may well be the other women sense she sort of march to the beat of her own drum. Her independent spirit would be liability for sure in forming alliances, knowing she is capable of not towing the line.

I do not know which is worse--making fun of Christia behind her back or to her face? Christina is adult and chose to be on show, knowing things can get rough. Somebody always gonna be ostracized, but perhaps is true Kim's two-faced,sort of mean girl treatment of Christina might prove to be a strategic mistake, too? Hopefully, Christina will fight back in one way or another. This is the game they signed-on to play.

To me, Alicia's comments against children not capable and will never be capable of defending themselves is more troubling whether she is teacher or not, but for sure worse due to the fact she is a teacher.

Edited by musica, Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:16 PM.


#200

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:30 PM

BurnXFreeze, I'm not talking about Kim failing to intervene or whatever; I'm saying that her own comments about Christina in the most recent episode were lacking in "pure humanity". I don't remember her exact words, but my paraphrase would be "we can get away with this, because Christina knows she's the omega, that no one really likes her, so she won't be shocked".


I completely fail to understand how this is some knock on Kim's character. She's making an in-game comment about an in-game topic (voting history) and the likelihood that Christina is less likely to be shocked/jolted by seeing her name at TC because she's gotten votes before. It's a completely matter-of-fact statement concerning why they're targeting Christina as the split vote.

#201

neplusultra

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:35 PM

She didn't only talk about voting history; she also said something like "no one really likes her, and she knows that". If need be, I'll find the exact words and the time mark on the CBS full episode viewer.

#202

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 5:49 PM

She didn't only talk about voting history; she also said something like "no one really likes her, and she knows that". If need be, I'll find the exact words and the time mark on the CBS full episode viewer.


I remember Kim talking about Christina being used to seeing her name (which I agree isn't a knock on Kim's character) but I really don't recall her saying that no one really likes C. If you find the timestamp can you post it - I'd like to go back and watch it.

#203

Yogurt Baron

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 5:52 PM

No sense that Kim, out of pure humanity, had any compunctions about describing Christina this way.


Has there ever been a good Survivor player who showed the kind of "humanity" you're speaking of, though? Kim, to me, seems to completely separate the game from real life, which is how it should be. When you're playing chess against someone, you don't worry about how their bishop might feel if you take it. (This analogy is complicated by the fact that in Survivor, your opponents are both your opponents and the pieces you have to move around.) Thinking about your opponents as people outside of the game, not as strategic pieces to move around in the game, is the one thing that separates Kim from Kat.

I strenuously disagree. I think she is actually fairly sloppy, but gets away with it (so far) because of who she's dealing with.


I'm somewhere between neplusultra and OurJames on this one. I think she makes occasional mistakes and then fixes them. And in terms of "who she's dealing with"...for me, this might be the second-savviest cast ever after Cook Islands. Certainly no lower than third or fourth.

#204

OurJames

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 6:02 PM

(This analogy is complicated by the fact that in Survivor, your opponents are both your opponents and the pieces you have to move around.)

The way you try to keep the chess pieces from getting up and moving themselves around is sell your view of reality, one which causes the least distress to the most people. Kim has been very good at this. If a chess piece starts hopping from square to square, he's gone. Of course, Kim's reality is one that serves her the best, but she has been effective in convincing others that it serves them as well. So very little dissension. But pretty soon the story she has been telling so far will be exposed as being at least partially false as the numbers dwindle. If she's really smart she'll make it seem that others are responsible for the boots from now on. But even that will become impossible as the numbers thin. We'll see what she's made of when it gets down to F5 or so. Which is very soon.

Edited by OurJames, Apr 27, 2012 @ 6:03 PM.


#205

needschocolate

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 6:57 PM

I think it's interesting that many/most people are attributing Sab telling Christina about the voting situation and Christina telling Troy about the fact that she was getting votes to stupidity/being timid/being led by Kim. I say "interesting" because that didn't actually occur to me until I started reading it here - until then I attributed both situations to being flat-out tired and making a mental mistake. And I still think that's more likely, especially with Sabrina. Many former players have talked about how it just gets harder and harder to think straight the longer the game goes.


I attributted Sabrina's telling Christina about the vote as an effort to have Christina vote for her at the FTC. Over the years, so many players have asked/begged that someone tell them if their name is going to be written down before they go to tribal (which never seems to happen), and then they get all huffy at FTC because they weren't told they would get votes. Sabrina can point out that she was honest with Christina when others weren't. I also think Sabrina waa very confident that Christina couldn't do anything to change the situation.

I think Christina told Troyzan in an effort to get the target off her back and onto Chelsea's. If Troy knows Christina's voting for Chelsea, then maybe he will too and convince someone else to vote with them. Then, if Troy plays his idol, Chelsea is gone instead of Christina. But this would hinge on someone else in addition to Troy and Christina voting for Chelsea. It was not a good idea, but what else could Christina do to make it be someone else to go home if Troy did have an idol? Well, I suppose she could have said that she wanted to make a move while Troy and Trazan were still there and that she was going to vote for Chelsea to break up Kim and Chelsea.

I don't understand why Christina was the idol insurance pick instead of Tarzan.

#206

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 7:08 PM

Troy won't vote for her (such a bitter betty) - he will likely vote for whomever is brought along as goat, just to get Kim's goat.


I've got to completely disagree with this. In fact, I would be very suprised if Troy votes for anyone else but Kim, with the possible exception of Kat (and then only if she starts folliowing his advice), Consider that Troy is a huge Survivor junkie; he lives and breathes the strategy and the game and the ethos. He's probably studied Heidik's and Boston Rob's and Yul's games like chess addicts study past masters. There's no way a guy like that would vote for a goat; he wouldn't respect anybody with not enough respect for the game to try to play, like Christina, or who just follows along like Alcia or Chelsea. He's already said on a couple of occasions that he is impressed with Kim's game, plus he doesn't actively dislike her. She's never confronetd him like Sabrina or Chelsea or Alicia. Troy especially hates Chelsea, since that "take it like a man" speech. And Tarzan has disappointed Troy on so many occassion with his unwillingness to shake things up and play the way Troy thinks is logical, that Tarzan's not getting his vote either.

Now, if Kat makes a killer move soon, and gets into F3, then she's got Troy's vote, since he'll see himself as the proud parent of that strategy; or as they say on 30 Rock, a mentor-manatee relationship.

Edited by El Guapo, Apr 27, 2012 @ 7:10 PM.


#207

JudyObscure

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 7:27 PM

I don't understand why Christina was the idol insurance pick instead of Tarzan.

Neither do I. If they actually plan to vote out Christina next, instead of Tarzan, it will really tick me off and I think it will add to the hard feelings from the men on the jury. As it stands now, the men can think that none of their ousters were personal, just a straight forward case of one tribe out numbering the other and methodically picking off the opposition. If the women suddenly reveal that they had formed an alliance with Tarzan, while reneging on their promises to all the other men, then it makes them look much shadier. It's also needlessly harsh toward Christina, after using her vote all this time as part of a women-together-till-the-men-are-gone deal.

Edited by JudyObscure, Apr 27, 2012 @ 7:30 PM.


#208

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 7:52 PM

It's a good question, needschocolate and JudyObscure (why wasn't Tarzan the other name written down), and just adds to the sense that Kim (and, yes, pretty much everyone else) is contemptuous of Christina on a personal level.

#209

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 8:01 PM

Problem is, JudyObscure, while we agree that keeping Christina around until Tarzan is gone is smarter, I could understand the other women's reasoning should they choose to oust her next week ahead of him. Sabrina did suss out that she'd be a potential flipper this week, and she more or less proved it with her Chelsea vote this week, unless that was also part of a cover to Troyzan and she was planning on throwing her vote somewhere else, anyway, to keep him from voting for her. Which I doubt. So while I personally want them to oust Tarzan next week, I don't totally blame them if they send her packing instead of him after her performance this week.

Edited by TDWT Kristen, Apr 27, 2012 @ 8:33 PM.


#210

tezza

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 8:26 PM

TDWT Kristen:

Problem is, JudyObscure, while we agree that keeping Christina around until Tarzan is gone is smarter, I could understand the other women's reasoning should they chose to oust her next week ahead of him. Sabrina did suss out that she'd be a potential flipper this week, and she more or less proved it with her Chelsea vote this week, unless that was also part of a cover to Troyzan and she was planning on throwing her vote somewhere else, anyway, to keep him from voting for her. Which I doubt. So while I personally want them to oust Tarzan next week, I don't totally blame them if they send her packing instead of him after her performance this week.


If they do boot her next week because of her actions this week, then it will be of their own making. They forced Christina's hand this week by making her the idol insurance vote. Who could blame her for fighting back a little? Their whole point was they thought she would be too stupid to realise what the votes for her meant (Implying that if she's smart, she'll know its a bad move to allow herself to be the second vote). FWIW Troy said he never understood the Christina hate either, so i think at this point, i'm just going to have to chalk it up to the outsider thing that was mentioned earlier.


What i do find fun about this season is that we're not really sure of how the endgame is going to go down. At this point it almost seems like a foregone conclusion that it will be Kim/Chelsea/Other. But who is the other? Kat, Sabrina, and Alicia all believe they are #3. Chelsea has some ideas, but Kim still hasn't been shown stating her plans. For all we know, she wants to take Tarzan as their goat. All we know for certain is that nobody wants Christina around. The rest is a mystery. Usually at this point we have some sort of idea of what the status quo is, but i have to applaud Kim for keeping us (and them) all guessing. Its hard to rally the bottom 4 players together when even we, the audience, can't qutie discern who the top 3 are.