Jump to content

5-6: "Far Away Places" 2012.04.22 (recap)


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.

721 replies to this topic

#511

rogaine2233

rogaine2233

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 8:56 AM

I keep going back to the moment when Don starts thinking about HoJo ideas and Megan uses it as an opportunity to snark rather than work. If work is so important and serious to her it's like 'hello, why aren't you working?' Instead of going all 'You can like to work but I can't?' how much better would it have been if she'd contributed her own ideas, we see them working together, and then she says something like 'See? I enjoy working as much as you do. I wish you wouldn't forget that.' Something along those lines. If she'd wanted to be there for Heinz she could have made it clear but she didn't. Since she passed on doing that why make a big stink over it after the fact? Just move on and work on something else if work is so important to her. I just find it irritating that she didn't at least try to see it as an opportunity where she could maybe take the lead creatively on her first account. All of the tools were there and I find it frustrating that she didn't at least try to make the best of it in terms of work.


I'm guessing we're seeing a little bit of what MW hinted is wrong with Don and Megan's marriage. (this should probably be in the Don or Megan thread, but it's referring to the HoJo's incident, so I'll leave it here unless the mods want to move it.)

Where an employee like Peggy would have gone if Don pulled the "I'm the boss and you'll skip out on this presentation because you need to rope in this potential account", the lines are blurred with Megan. Don had about as much interest in landing HoJo's as he did in going for a bachelor/whoring weekend up there with Roger to ostensibly land an account. Don was going up there for a weekend of uninterrupted sex with Megan. He compared it to California. He thought it would be magical. The fact that HoJo's was a potential income source was not even on his radar screen.

Similarly, if he had been in that restaurant with Peggy, even if the ride up had been chatting about personal stuff, once Don turned the placemat over and began brainstorming, Peggy would have joined in. Megan on the other hand, blurred the same lines Don did. She's personally invested in this relationship and being pulled away from work did not feel like "do what the boss says" to her. It felt like "my husband is trying to control me". So she was already on simmer and it went up to full flame when Don started to brainstorm.

They are both blurring the lines of work and personal relationships. Someone needs to nip it in the bud, or it will potentially kill SCDP. Megan is inconsequential to the business. She can be replaced with a dozen other people. But Don can not. So Bert has to reign him in. Let's see if what Bert says has any residual effect....

#512

Philipscomments

Philipscomments

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Male

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 9:04 AM

Also I am not sure if I understood it right, but didn't it have to be the candy that Don actually gave her, as opposed to her going out and purchasing it herself?


It's the candy he gave her, she keeps it as a good luck charm when she does presentations. Never opens it. Never uses a different package.


Have they even been married a year, I thought it was a few months, although I guess it may feel like a year? I think that we are four months into the season and three months elapsed between seasons four and five, right? Do we know exactly when they got married in the interim three months?


Someone said the trip to Disneyland was in October of 1965, I think. It's now Sept. of 1966. I cannot remember when they got married, but it seemed to be very quickly after he proposed. So, that would make it less than a year that they've been husband and wife.

They are both blurring the lines of work and personal relationships. Someone needs to nip it in the bud, or it will potentially kill SCDP.


I totally agree. My first job out of college was working in an office where the owner had his wife as his administrative assistant. She basically sat there and did her nails all day. And drew a salary, while many in the business were paid by the hour. He built the business from scratch, but as soon as he started taking her away for long weekends and ignoring the day-to-day stuff, business suffered.

Don is doing the same thing. He's not out busting balls to get new accounts like Pete is, tho Pete will never let anyone forget what he does while Don is much quieter about it.

#513

mickbeth

mickbeth

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 9:07 AM

Regardless of what Don specifically said about Megan and her mother, it was still a comment about something Megan/Mme. Calvet does. How is that related to Don's mother being dead? It's not like Don went out and became an orphan knowing it would annoy Megan.


The only way I made sense of the exchange is that it referred to how a child interacts with his or her first, most intimate person: Mother. Especially a someone who is bilingual. The cradle language is an especial comfort to many. I had a grandfather who beat the gong extensively (and hopelessly) about preserving the mother tongue among immigrants, almost a century ago. He wrote that the immigrant, dying in a foreign land, most often dies speaking of his mother, in his native tongue. That might be trite, but there's a kernel of truth. Megan speaks French with her mother because it is her primal comfort. Unthinking, she gives Don the retort she does because, to her, there's only one way to react to the criticism ("It's my mother. What have you been smoking? Don't you understand?").

This brings into sharp relief how bereft Don, is. Like Ginsberg. Like a Martian. He has absolutely no idea of what any kind of connection to a mother is.

ETA that Jane also speaks what might be her father's first tongue, and, like Don, Roger is unable to get it, has never stopped to contemplate Jane's inner life and intimate connections.

Edited by mickbeth, Apr 24, 2012 @ 9:09 AM.


#514

johnacraft

johnacraft

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 9:14 AM

Do we know exactly when they got married in the interim


Not that I'm aware of.

"Tomorrowland" happens around Columbus Day weekend, 1965 (the final scenes in the office and Don's apartment are probably Tuesday, October 12, 1965).

Season 5 opens with everyone returning from Memorial Day, 1966, includes the party (June 4), and concludes the following week Monday.

Don mentions in the 'white rug' scene that Megan's been a copywriter 3 months, so presumably she started the new duties around the first of March.

This week, someone posted that he mentions a bathing suit Megan picked up in Acapulco. Maybe their honeymoon?

Other than that, I don't think we know.

As to plausible timelines, maybe a wedding around Christmas, followed by a New Year's trip to Acapulco (the trip Don would have taken the previous New Year, if not for the news about Anna). Upon returning, maybe Megan takes a few weeks off while they find the new apartment, returning March 1 as a copywriter?

All speculation.

#515

gilgi

gilgi

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 9:17 AM

Don was going up there for a weekend of uninterrupted sex with Megan. He compared it to California. He thought it would be magical. The fact that HoJo's was a potential income source was not even on his radar screen....Megan on the other hand, blurred the same lines Don did. She's personally invested in this relationship and being pulled away from work did not feel like "do what the boss says" to her. It felt like "my husband is trying to control me".


This is right on, I think.

My sense of what is going on is that Megan went into the relationship thinking: "Here's this guy with a complicated past, but whatever, that's all in the past. And he's sexy and powerful. I can have the best of both worlds--be with a man I love AND further my career." I don't think it was all conscious and calculating, but this is a pretty common self-delusion from women in their twenties who get involved with powerful older men.

And then Don was thinking: "Megan is so cool and sexy and she's the opposite of Betty! She understands and accepts me and will make me a better man. She thinks she wants a career, so I'll give it to her. And it will be perfect because then we can be together all the time!" This was also probably not conscious and calcuating, and also a pretty common self-delusion from older powerful men who get involved with younger women they work with.

And then, what we see here is what happens to that. First, Megan is realizing that it is very hard to be equals in your personal life with your boss. And she is also seeing that your colleagues resent you for your special status--doubly so when just being a woman in the workplace who isn't a secretary was rare. And she resents Don for "putting her in that position" even though she was equally culpable.

And then Don isn't really invested in Megan as a person and when he realizes that she actually has family and professional interests and dessert preferences that aren't his, it freaks him out. It's true that she's been able to get him to do new stuff, like hang out with her friends, but the HoJos trip is harder for him to deal with because it involves her actually rejecting stuff he wants, which he feels as a rejection of him.

Also, they really spend all of their time together. Beyond all the psychological stuff, they have got to be sick of each other when every single minute of their days are spent in each other's presence.

#516

BBDi

BBDi

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 9:20 AM

The only thing I can surmise about the timeline is that when Season 5 opened, they seem to have moved into the new apartment pretty recently. I would guess maybe within the previous month or two, given that Sally was still unfamiliar with it and there were some boxes around.

Just given how Don is about Megan, I can't imagine that they would have waited more than a few months to get married. A few months (Christmas or New Year's) sounds about right.

Also, they really spend all of their time together. Beyond all the psychological stuff, they have got to be sick of each other when every single minute of their days are spent in each other's presence.



That's very true!

I think Megan got way more than she bargained for, or maybe just a lot faster than she imagined. I remember thinking when Don proposed to her that there was some reluctance on her part (oops, sorry, I know this is off-topic). In any case, when she boinked her boss and told him she wanted to be like him and Peggy, I don't think this scenario was what she had in mind.

Edited by BBDi, Apr 24, 2012 @ 9:25 AM.


#517

Philipscomments

Philipscomments

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Male

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 9:23 AM

All speculation.


But good, johnacraft, I think that's pretty accurate.

#518

Tafatia

Tafatia

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 9:23 AM

I think Megan clerarly shows that she understands how hurtful her comment "Why don't you call your mother?" is right after she says it. She has a look on her face like she can't believe that came out of her mouth and immediately tries to say something to Don like she is going to apologize

Not that he didn't deserve it, but I think its clear she was trying to hit him where it hurts the most and she knows that issue is the most sensitive one of all to him

I agree with the first part of your comment but not the second part, Don's reaction to Megan's comment was not normal, and even if she is slowly starting to realize that something's not right with Don, I don't think that she could anticipate that reaction. The comment was a reflexive comeback to Don telling her to call her mother. I don't know if Don told Megan everything about his past, but even if she did not know about Dick Whitman, she at least knows that his mother has been dead for a long time, so it is not as she just died and the wounds were still fresh.

Not that I am the model for normalcy, but my mother is deceased and I still feel her loss, but if I used profanity and if someone said, "do you kiss your mother with that mouth," I am not going to run out of the building and take off in my car. Megan knows something because it seemed like she did a quick replay in her head and realized what set Don / Dick off (which is one of the reasons I don't think it was pre-meditated) and went after him, but I think she realized it because she knows Don is screwed up and in some vague way it links back to his upbringing and mother(s), but I still don't think she could have anticipated that saying "why don't you call your mother" or any other mother reference was so fraught.

or that Don is completely delusional and truly thinks he apologized.

This gets my vote. To me this is another example of Don Draper reality, the most glaring being the comment to Pete that had he met Megan first he would not have been such a dog. The other one was in this same episode when he told Megan that she could have remained at the office for the Heinz presentation. Yeah technically she could have insisted or flat out said, "I am staying and that's final," but this would be to the same guy that a few hours later she would get into a blow up with over her not liking orange sherbet.

When Don told Megan about the trip, he was insistent / persuasive and ultimately pulled rank, when Megan brought up the Heinz presentation while they were still in the office, Don's response was "what about it... it'll be fine." When Megan brought up Heinz again in the car, Don said something like, "why are you worrying about that...you feel bad because you got to take off and they have to work... I don't, there have to be some advantages to being my wife." I just don't believe that there is a way that Megan could have refused to go on the trip without there being major fall out, if not then and there, then at a later time.

Edited by Tafatia, Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:00 AM.


#519

rogaine2233

rogaine2233

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 9:26 AM

The only thing I can surmise about the timeline is that when Season 5 opened, they seem to have moved into the new apartment pretty recently. I would guess maybe within the previous month or two, given that Sally was still unfamiliar with it and there were some boxes around.

Just given how Don is about Megan, I can't imagine that they would have waited more than a few months to get married. A few months (Christmas or New Year's) sounds about right.


Taking my thoughts on this to the Megan thread.

#520

HickoryColt

HickoryColt

    Stalker

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 9:35 AM

I was wondering about Roger and the reference to the "BLack Sox" World Series during the LSD trip. I think this related to the Roger-Jane marriage : Its a sham like the world series was that year, he was cheating on her like the players cheated during the series. They threw the series, not trying, just like he wasn't really trying during the marriage.

#521

Sister Magpie

Sister Magpie

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 10:14 AM

Women do not become 'sluts' after one job setback, in one afternoon.


Sadly, women become 'sluts' whenever society decides they've stepped out of line sexually. (Peggy would probably have crossed that line many times already in the minds of many people.) It's a shaming label, not a real description. This isn't the first time Peggy's experimented with a sexual encounter to see how it would make her feel.

I don't think that Peggy wants to get married or to have a similar long-term serious relationship. She wants a convenient boyfriend she can summon and dismiss - someone to accompany her to social and work events and have sex with - rather than a husband, who would too demanding on her time and energy.


I think Peggy's also struggled with over-defending her territory. She sometimes thinks she's being treated badly when she's not. And there's a point where she will pull the switch on a relationship--she threatened it with Abe and did it with her last boyfriend. She also threatened it with Don. I think she does that when she's feeling especially harrassed and stressed.

Plus, I think this is a client who wants the 'Don Draper treatment' in the advertising sense. It was a recipe for disaster or at least disappointment.


And Don had really let her down with the bean ballet already.

It wasn't 2 minutes with the Heinz a'holes outside talking to Pete and Ken that Pete came in to tell Peggy she's off the account. Which means...neither of them went to bat for her. Yep, I see a showdown with Don looming on the horizon.


I don't think it was a question of going to bat for her in that situation. If the client doesn't want to work with that copywriter, they're going to pull her off the account, not fight with the client to force them to deal with Peggy. Pete's announcement, while blunt, wasn't overly judgmental either. He didn't yell at Peggy for the client when she asked what the client said, he just said what she needed to know: he won't work with her. She's off the business. No arguments, no gossip.

I thought he was trying to put her mind at ease about doing something that he mistakenly thought they'd both want to do. I agree that Don is an arrogant SOB but I don't agree that he was aware that this was important to Megan....Not only that but I keep going back to the moment when Don starts thinking about HoJo ideas and Megan uses it as an opportunity to snark rather than work.


Yes, I thought Don was almost entirely in the wrong for the whole episode, but he wasn't, imo, always wrong because he literally saw Megan wanting something and overruled it. That didn't make him any less arrogant, but I think he genuinely was clueless. And when they fight, I don't think Megan's always taking the exact opposition position to him (he wants her to blow off work vs. she's passionate about work). I think Megan's own pov makes things more complicated.

Don hasn't been good about Megan at work at all. He's not dealing with it seriously, either in terms of mentoring Megan like a real junior copywriter or by considering how this will be awkward for other people. But it always seems to come back to that first seduction scene to me, where Megan reveals her desire to be a copywriter. I saw Megan say she wanted to be a copywriter, but when the actual ad-talk started she moved it into a romantic encounter with Don. I don't think that's a mistake, that I can assume that when she's not onscreen she's Peggy.

This ep just seemed like the over-arching theme was the way Don treated Megan with the Heinz thing just being one more example of Megan feeling like he was making her decisions for her. The things Megan herself says about copywriting have been rare and vague imo. I do think Megan does, in some ways, want to be a copywriter. But the two times Don actually has sat down alone with her and started to do his thing, she (not he) moved the conversation to their romantic relationship instead. I think her relationship to the job is more about being part of things and being on the team than actually coming up with ideas for how to sell things. Even when she tried to bring it up in the car, she talked about Peggy being nervous, not the campaign--which seems significant because she never does.

When Don brought it up at the office, he was insistent / persuasive and ultimately pulled rank, when Megan brought up Heinz at the office he was like "what about it... it'll be fine." Later when Megan brought up Heinz, Don said something like, "why are you worrying about that?" You feel bad because you got to take off and they have to work?" I don't there have to be some advantages to being my wife? I just don't believe that there is a way that Megan could have refused to go on the trip without there being major fall out, if not then and there at the office, at a later time.


Yes, Don and Megan were coming from different places. Don saw a day playing hooky as a fun thing and thought he was reassuring Megan that she could enjoy that. Megan was feeling like Don just expected her to mirror back his own feelings.

But if Don obviously doesn't get where Megan's coming from she has to speak up--as she did in this ep. And I honestly don't think the fallout from Megan actually seriously telling Don that she wanted to be there for Heinz would have to be so negative that she's afraid to disagree with him. Her job, marriage and well-being weren't in any danger if she had called him into his office and seriously presented it as something she was excited about so she'd really like to go to HoJo's tomorrow he could have handled it fine. As it was I have no trouble believing that her protests were her feeling like she ought to stay instead of that she wanted to say, since Don's deep in his fantasy world. As a viewer it looked to me like she was conflicted, but not unhappy.

So instead when she does speak up she does it in a confrontational way because she's (rightfully) angry. So obviously fallout isn't something she's avoiding at all costs. She just confronted him, imo, on the thing that was really bugging her, that he treated her like LovingWife!Barbie. As she herself said, he got to like work (and pull out a placemat for ideas) but she didn't get to like work (he dismissed her lingering regret about leaving for the day and just assumed she'd be thrilled to go with him).

#522

mickbeth

mickbeth

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 10:40 AM

I noticed the childish tone, but I did not assume that it was out of character / unintentional.


Add me to the JP can indeed act school. Jane had that same sulky tone when she locked herself in her room following the wedding gift contretemps.

I also didn't see her in the apartment scene as That Girl or Mary Richards half as much as a terrified little girl—in costume, actions and expression—from the moment Don kicked down the door until the scene ended.

#523

Tafatia

Tafatia

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 10:49 AM

Don hasn't been good about Megan at work at all. He's not dealing with it seriously, either in terms of mentoring Megan like a real junior copywriter or by considering how this will be awkward for other people. But it always seems to come back to that first seduction scene to me, where Megan reveals her desire to be a copywriter. I saw Megan say she wanted to be a copywriter, but when the actual ad-talk started she moved it into a romantic encounter with Don.

I think that this is a good point and is likely one of the reasons why Don sees Megan as his beck-and-call geisha during office hours. Even though I don't think that she should be stuck in this role, I can see why it would be difficult to get Don to take her seriously in the office. Untraining Don is going to be a process, and likely not be a pretty one.

I do think Megan does, in some ways, want to be a copywriter....
I think her relationship to the job is more about being part of things and being on the team than actually coming up with ideas for how to sell things. Even when she tried to bring it up in the car, she talked about Peggy being nervous, not the campaign--which seems significant because she never does.

I think that this is a fair point as well. Aside from Megan murkying up things when she expressed her interest to Don as a prelude to seduction, this is I am OK with Megan being a copywriter even though she has not shown any kind of creative talent. She does not need that to be a competent contributor, at least at the junior level. I think that a lot of the job is basic writing and placement of text, so really the skills required are composition writing and visual ability. For example if ads have to be placed for Mohawk, then Ginsberg is the one who comes up with the selling type language and then someone like Megan figures out, or executes based on someone else's directions, the placement of the more prosaic stuff like the fares.

Edited by Tafatia, Apr 24, 2012 @ 10:52 AM.


#524

Scaramanga

Scaramanga

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 10:58 AM

I don't think you have to know a lot of detail about a person's past to know that "I talk to my mother too much? Well, your mother's DEAD ! So there!" is a bad place to take an argument.

As far as what happened in the apartment I think if she wanted to be away from Don then she should have gone to a place that wasn't "theirs".


I think it's possible she didn't expect him to come home before she had changed and left for the office. She seemed dressed and ready to go when he got there.

After Don busted his way into the apartment, he said that he had said he was sorry. When? Did I miss this or did Don just think he had apologized because he was clearly so stressed out when he didn't know where she was?


I noticed this as well. I never heard him say it.


I recall him doing that to Betty once, too. I don't remember the exact exchange, but it was the time she stayed up all night in her party dress while they fought. She told him he had never said something, and he said that he had, but we had never seen him do it. I'm going to have to dig that up and rewatch it.

Most men in that time period, even those that thought they were enlightened, had been raised to have a feeling of entitlement and dominance over women. Sometimes they didn't even realize they were doing it, but they just expected their woman to follow their lead and do what they said.


That's true. For a man of Don's generation, ordering for your date in a restaurant was not an unusual thing to do at all.

#525

rogaine2233

rogaine2233

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:04 AM

I recall him doing that to Betty once, too. I don't remember the exact exchange, but it was the time she stayed up all night in her party dress while they fought.


I think that was the time when she said "you never say that you love me."

#526

mickbeth

mickbeth

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:05 AM

I agree with posters upthread who think the season is less subtle and a bit disjointed.


Also agree, but as someone who is interested in generational cycles, I prefer to think it is intentional rather than just "mission drift" on the part of the writers. Mostly. One of the few shows in recent times that I followed was ER, and by the time patients had become an afterthought and a tank crashed into the emergency department, I was thinking, "Oh for fuck's sake. Why am I still watching this, again?" There is a whiff of that in this season, as someone pointed out, but, as I said, I prefer to think this is an intentional reflection of the enormous changes at work in 1966.

In 1966 I was still filling diapers and barely walking, but I do recall much, and am aware of that time as pivotal, through family lore and history.

1) We were on the verge of a spiritual and cultural awakening that would remain fresh for years
2) We were at high tide in terms of national prestige, wealth and influence
3) An everyday American (not otherwise oppressed) was at his own economic high tide, which began to ebb a few years later.
4) Suburbia really was an increasingly alienating force, as was car culture and individual atomization, to name a few. Check out Bowling Alone for more about that.

On a superficial level, I remember fidgeting in Mass around that time and seeing ladies with hats, veils, gloves, men in suits, kids in Sunday best. At some point, that level of formality in dress sure flew out the window. I suspect mod styles were the first, ugly, reactive (though not unformal) salvo in that revolution.

I could go on, but to sum up, I think the disjointedness of the episodes' and the series' narrative this season reflects a chaotic time in our national life. And, since Weiner claims he knows the entire arc of the series, we're sort of nearing the series' climax. I would expect a more laid-back denouement in later seasons.

Rethinking Ginsberg, and although something is definitely off about his affect, for whatever reason, I believe his main narrative purpose is a lettres perses-style alien perspective. He happened to spoon-feed it to us by saying he is from Mars. He's the one looking at SCDP and in fact the state of America with a gimlet eye and responding in a rather appropriate and completely needed way to it.

On a totally shallow note I thought Peggy's eyeshadow was awful in this episode. Almost distractingly so


I recall seeing blue eyeshadow on young women and matrons alike, back then. I remember it because, yes, it was fuggenugly on everyone. One thing missing from this show, though, is the cotton puff Pat Nixon-type teased hairdo. Thank gawd! That would take me out of the story something terrible. Even so, I wonder how well Mad Men's look will wear 15 or twenty years down the road. Period pieces that seem good at the time seem to take on a dated appearance after a while. As in "Oh yeah. I can totally tell they made `Thornbirds' in the early 80s . . . '" Sometimes it's just a little thing, like eye makeup or a neckline.

Edited by mickbeth, Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:14 AM.


#527

HickoryColt

HickoryColt

    Stalker

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:09 AM

I actually would have been pissed too if I were Mr. Bean, and it had nothing to do with Peggy doing the pitch or her being a woman

You are paying to have Don Draper as your ad person, not Peggy. Peggy is a very important person in the company, but she isn't DOn. He is the reason clients seek out their services, he should be there for the pitch. He wasn't there for the prior pitch either, until the end. Two pitches, Don isn't there for either one of them. Then to have Peggy say what she did, I can see why he would be upset. I thought he was actually pretty restrained, all things considered. He seems a bit confused on what he wants, but still, he is paying for Don, and that is not what he is getting. We don't know what he said outside the room, but if I were him, I would have said I want Don in the meeetings, thats what we are paying for. Maybe that is what he said and Pete just shortened this to Peggy being off the account.

#528

Coolerheads

Coolerheads

    Just Tuned In

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:14 AM

And the "You owned the night award" goes to Peyton List. Jane's realization that her marriage was over unfolded with such quiet tragedy my heart broke for her. Brava, Ms. List.

#529

brooklynbull

brooklynbull

    Channel Surfer

  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brooklyn, NY

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:19 AM

Women do not become 'sluts' after one job setback, in one afternoon.

Sadly, women become 'sluts' whenever society decides they've stepped out of line sexually. (Peggy would probably have crossed that line many times already in the minds of many people.) It's a shaming label, not a real description. This isn't the first time Peggy's experimented with a sexual encounter to see how it would make her feel.

[Exactly. [I think that] Peggy has always been a character who has been, often unknowingly, or unwillingly, transgressive - she had a child and no-one knew, except the priest who offered her no solace. She asked for & got a job that most other women thought totally unsuitable for her. She competes with men, drinks with men, is taken for granted by men. Her 'empowerment' makes much more sense in a dream. I still think the 'real' Peggy that we have known would NEVER give an afternoon handjob to a strange man in a movie theater - it was her dream.

[snip] [I flashed] ahead a bit to the mood of Looking for Mr Goodbar and the very dark side of a new era in sexual dynamics.

Edited by TWoP Howard, Apr 24, 2012 @ 6:32 PM.
Boards on boards


#530

Luciaphile

Luciaphile

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:22 AM

[snip] FWIW, there have been characters who I disliked who I thought were acted well: Joy and Suzanne come to mind. For that matter, I don't dislike Megan. They've done a poor job of integrating her into the story. I have seen worse actors than JP. I just don't think she's of the same caliber as the majority of the cast and it shows.

You are paying to have Don Draper as your ad person, not Peggy. Peggy is a very important person in the company, but she isn't DOn. He is the reason clients seek out their services, he should be there for the pitch. He wasn't there for the prior pitch either, until the end. Two pitches, Don isn't there for either one of them. Then to have Peggy say what she did, I can see why he would be upset. I thought he was actually pretty restrained, all things considered. He seems a bit confused on what he wants, but still, he is paying for Don, and that is not what he is getting. We don't know what he said outside the room, but if I were him, I would have said I want Don in the meeetings, thats what we are paying for. Maybe that is what he said and Pete just shortened this to Peggy being off the account.

BINGO. We have a winner.

Edited by TWoP Howard, Apr 24, 2012 @ 6:32 PM.
Quoted post was deleted


#531

Philipscomments

Philipscomments

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Male

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:26 AM

She does not need that to be a competent contributor, at least at the junior level. I think that a lot of the job is basic writing and placement of text, so really the skills required are composition writing and visual ability. For example if ads have to be placed for Mohawk, then Ginsberg is the one who comes up with the selling type language and then someone like Megan figures out, or executes based on someone else's directions, the placement of the more prosaic stuff like the fares.


That's not what a jr. copywriter at an ad agency does. She should be doing no design work. That's the art director or graphic designer's job.

Megan's responsibilities as someone with no experience would be limited to proofing copy, making sure things are grammatically correct and writing short press releases about products or adding small bits of copy to an existing ad where the art director tells her to put them. Those price offers on the coupons she couldn't get right, so she's lacking in experience. If you are making a suggestion, make sure it's one that makes sense.

She does need to be competent if she's drawing a paycheck. Thus far, I don't see it. She's there because Don wants her there.

#532

tadasana

tadasana

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:27 AM

beeble:

I want Trudy to take LSD next. She can take Don into a Dreamatorium.


ROTFLMAO

#533

Coolerheads

Coolerheads

    Just Tuned In

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:27 AM

I don't read too much into the orange. It was 1966.

Edited by Coolerheads, Apr 25, 2012 @ 12:52 PM.


#534

rogaine2233

rogaine2233

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:30 AM

FWIW, there have been characters who I disliked who I thought were acted well


Don Draper

#535

tadasana

tadasana

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:30 AM

It must have been hard for overtly ambitious women like Peggy to find a man that "got it" so to speak, . . .

Nearly 50 years later [I don’t think this has] really changed.

Edited by TWoP Howard, Apr 24, 2012 @ 6:39 PM.
Opinion as fact


#536

pookie207

pookie207

    Channel Surfer

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:51 AM

I can believe that Don probably never hit Betty or Megan. He can still be an abuser but controls it up to the point of hitting, like kicking in the door and chasing around the room. I was married to a man who would get so angry at me, his response would be to leave me and drive away like Don did. Yes, had to find my own way home because he didn't come back for me. Another time, he stopped the car on the highway and told me to get out. I said no and reminded him he was driving MY car. He drove us home and ran ahead of me to our apartment and locked me out. Had to go to a friends house to sleep on her couch. He took all my things and put them in garbage bags and put them on my mother's front yard and called me at work and told me to not come home. But no, he never laid a hand on me. To this day, he tells everyone I was the love of his life. Go figure.

Ginsburg story of his birth was heartbreaking and even Don's childhood makes me sad. There are no do-overs for sad childhoods.

#537

BBDi

BBDi

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 11:56 AM

We don't know what he said outside the room, but if I were him, I would have said I want Don in the meeetings, thats what we are paying for. Maybe that is what he said and Pete just shortened this to Peggy being off the account.



I think we can probably infer that Mr Bean either asked for/demanded another copywriter or specified that Peggy be taken off the account. He probably also requested/demanded having Don be more closely involved. Given how quickly Peggy was taken off the account, I doubt it was the result of internal discussion at SCDP about how they could better serve the client. I don't work in advertising, but I do work in another type of writing/communications. If a client is that unhappy, throwing the writer under the bus is one of the easiest ways to placate a client, even when the writer has done nothing wrong. In this case, Peggy might be considered to have stepped in front of the bus. Sometimes the writer is better off being removed from a project with a client who can't or won't be pleased. What are the chances that this client will ever like anything that comes from Peggy's pen or mouth going forward?

Wrt to Peggy's adventures in the movie theater, I think she has shown herself willing to stray outside social norms from the beginning of the series, and is someone who is often motivated by curiosity. If she were a man I don't think people would even think twice about it.

#538

Jflower

Jflower

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 12:07 PM

Can anyone explain why Betty was told by her lawyer that Don wouldn't have to give her any money when they divorced, but when Roger divorced Mona to marry Jane there was a lot of talk about how much money it would cost him? Is it because he left her for another woman?

If that is the case, then why would it cost Roger a lot of money to divorce Jane when it seems that it's a mutual decision?

#539

rogaine2233

rogaine2233

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 12:09 PM

Mr. Beans could have been how Bert finally saw the extent of what Don's "love leave" was doing to the company. Perhaps the client complained to him or he overhead him talking to Pete and Ken. I think Bert is willing to turn a blind eye to a lot of weird things in that office, but when clients are upset, he will put his foot down, and rightfully so. And good for him for pushing right back on Don's "it's none of your business"!

#540

Tafatia

Tafatia

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 12:10 PM

That's not what a jr. copywriter at an ad agency does. She should be doing no design work. That's the art director or graphic designer's job.


Megan's responsibilities as someone with no experience would be limited to proofing copy, making sure things are grammatically correct and writing short press releases about products or adding small bits of copy to an existing ad where the art director tells her to put them. Those price offers on the coupons she couldn't get right, so she's lacking in experience. If you are making a suggestion, make sure it's one that makes sense.

She does need to be competent if she's drawing a paycheck. Thus far, I don't see it. She's there because Don wants her there.

I think we agree more than we disagree. I may be recalling this wrong but I thought that I have heard Don, Peggy (even when she was junior) and Paul giving input on visuals, although in Don's case he is over art as well. I never questioned because it made sense given the size of Sterling Cooper / SCDP. There seems to be a lot of scut work in an ad agency that I think a more senior copywriter or art director would hand off if it can be done, I am thinking of things like coupons and air fares - although I don't think that air fares were that dynamic back then. I know that the art director decides things like font and spacing, but I can see a junior copywriter working on something recurring and basic like coupons and making decisions, or at least proposing ideas, of a visual nature.


She does need to be competent if she's drawing a paycheck. Thus far, I don't see it. She's there because Don wants her there.

I don't see proof of it either but I don't need to because I don't think that the job is that hard.