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3-16: "Saturday Night Glee-ver" 2012.04.17 (recap)


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#271

Sara2009

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 11:33 AM

It really seemed to me that he was just randomly choosing something for Santana to consider and added the Brittany/marriage equality angle to get her to agree.


The show didn't present it that way, though. To me, it seemed like Will genuinely got the impression from her song that Santana wanted to go to law school. It made NO sense whatsoever, but that's how RIB portrayed it. JMO

#272

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 5:49 PM

It really seemed to me that he was just randomly choosing something for Santana to consider and added the Brittany/marriage equality angle to get her to agree.

Yes, previously he had heard Santana say that college is a waste of time, so of course he knew she wasn't singing about becoming a lawyer and fighting for marriage equality. IStM he was trying to force her hand, get her engaged in a dialogue, perhaps start thinking in a different direction, etc.

Edited by DEM, Apr 20, 2012 @ 7:08 PM.


#273

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 6:14 PM

…from what I remember of high school it seems pretty legit, at least when it came from my circle of friends; five of us thought were going to be writers when we graduated in 05, but come '12 only one of us has a degree in Creative Writing (myself), everyone switched to a major they found a bigger passion in that they hadn't realized before, hell, I nearly switched to a Communications major. Acting/singing/performing is these kids passion now, but I bet half the kids who want to go into the arts graduate with a different degree.

But the thing is, the writers don't seem to acknowledge that. They seem to think that at eighteen you need to have a life path locked down and you need to follow it. If you are unsure about your life at eighteen, you are destined to be a failure.

Edited by TWoP Howard, Apr 23, 2012 @ 1:27 PM.
Quoted post was edited


#274

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 7:09 PM

If you watch the movie Rachel was spot on as Janet. The over acting is kind of a part of the whole thing.


I'm going to have to disagree with this. I've seen the movie more times than I'm comfortable admitting to, as well as having performed the role of Janet in our local stage show. Overacting is a part of playing the part, but Janet is the ultimate straight woman until she gets corrupted later on in the movie. The whole point of the character is to be the subject of the joke. The way Rachel played the part, she was clearly in on the joke. It was a complete miss in how the part should have been played.

I've never gotten any sense of Rachel being such a great actress (and the show is iffy on supporting it since Rachel had failed in all of her community theater auditions prior to joining ND - something that she stated herself). And considering that Maria is basically the kind of character that she is most comfortable playing - the young ingénue - it really wasn't any kind of real stretch for her. She wasn't exactly going outside her comfort zone. It wasn't like Kurt playing Krupke (a burly, hard bitten cop who's not afraid to shove the gang members around) or Mercedes playing Frankenfurter. Of if we need another example of one of the gleeks actually acting and playing a character other than themselves in a vocal performance, Kurt's performance of Le Jazz Hot is probably the clearest example.

Why would Will (and Emma) have given Finn a bunch of college brochures(one of which about animal husbandry) if he ONLY wanted him to pursue a career in the arts?


The impression I got is that they were basically throwing everything at the wall, hoping that something would stick. Finn has no idea at all of what might possibly motivate him so they were giving him every reasonable option possible. The problem is trying to get someone who has always been an iffy student to get excited about going on to college very, very late in the game. It’s past the point where Finn is suddenly going to buckle down and focus on his grades. And while I have no problems with someone going to college without immediately knowing their major and using the freshman year to explore, Finn was not going to do that. He’s not an intellectually curious individual.

Will’s encouragement of Finn was such a contrast to how Sue handled Santana in that Sue actually gave Santana something concrete to aid her (the scholarship) and granted that she would need a bit of time to figure out what she wanted. The scholarship would be a stepping stone and give her the freedom to find her path while still giving her the familiar security of cheerleading. That is far more meaningful that the constant “you’re wonderful” pep talks that Finn got from Will. Will didn’t give Finn a focus, which is what he needed more than anything else. Just telling someone who’s got no directly at all that he’s got so much potential and can do anything is dangerous because he’s focused Finn on what is likely to be another unachievable goal.

There’s a huge difference between a dream and a fantasy. A dream can possibly be achieved with talent, hard work and a bit of luck. A fantasy is a dream that has no chance of coming through. Rachel, Kurt and Mercedes have dreams. They have a lofty goal in mind, but have the talent to achieve those goals. Mercedes lacked a plan (which now seems to be geling) and Kurt and Rachel most definately have their course charted. They are gathering the tools they need to achieve their goals. But pushing Finn the way he did, Will gave him a fantasy rather than a dream.

#275

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 8:18 PM

I agree that giving most of the glee clubbers some kind of actor/singer/performer career goal is a device to try and bring them together next season. On most shows about teenagers, that 70s show for instance, if they don't spin them off, they usually invent reasons for the main cast to stick around their home town after high school to keep the show going.

This is kind of Glee's version of that. They aren't going to have them all hanging around Lima, so they need to invent a reason for characters that might have realistic stayed home and started a career to go off and do something else. Even with puck, it's no accident that he decides to open his pool cleaning business in California, where I'm sure gleeks will turn up looking for acting and singing jobs at some point.

They've been pretty vague about Finn's athletic and academic performance in recent seasons, but back in season one they made it clear that he was pretty clueless...trying to cheat off Britt who thinks the square root of 4 is rainbows S. Pierce and he still acts pretty stupid, though it isn't specifically stated. They also portrayed him as being a fairly hopeless athlete and even specifically had that scene where the Ohio State recruiter was like, sorry dude you're not that great, so I'm not sure what scholarships we're now supposed to believe he could get.

I really think this having Finn go off to be an actor thing is both a device to keep him and Rachel going to NY and a continuation of RM & BF treating the Finn character as their sort of gay boy dream of a straight man who's hunky and athletic, but still artistic and sensitive, as per the speech from Kurt about how he and rachel are a dime a dozen, but "talented" straight boys like Finn are something special. ::eye rolly::

#276

Sara2009

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 8:30 PM

Will’s encouragement of Finn was such a contrast to how Sue handled Santana in that Sue actually gave Santana something concrete to aid her (the scholarship) and granted that she would need a bit of time to figure out what she wanted. The scholarship would be a stepping stone and give her the freedom to find her path while still giving her the familiar security of cheerleading. That is far more meaningful that the constant “you’re wonderful” pep talks that Finn got from Will. Will didn’t give Finn a focus, which is what he needed more than anything else. Just telling someone who’s got no directly at all that he’s got so much potential and can do anything is dangerous because he’s focused Finn on what is likely to be another unachievable goal.


Will didn't have anything concrete to offer Finn, though. Sue wouldn't have either had Brittany not thought of applying for Santana. IMO, Will did everything he could for Finn. Personally, I'm glad he didn't just apply to a bunch of schools for Finn.


Plus in season 1 Finn mentioned going to college, so I could understand why Will/Emma/Rachel gave him college brochures.


There’s a huge difference between a dream and a fantasy. A dream can possibly be achieved with talent, hard work and a bit of luck. A fantasy is a dream that has no chance of coming through. Rachel, Kurt and Mercedes have dreams. They have a lofty goal in mind, but have the talent to achieve those goals. Mercedes lacked a plan (which now seems to be geling) and Kurt and Rachel most definately have their course charted. They are gathering the tools they need to achieve their goals. But pushing Finn the way he did, Will gave him a fantasy rather than a dream.


This isn't how the show has presented the situation at all, though. IMO, we're clearly supposed to think that Finn is special. Will, Rachel, and Kurt have all said as much throughout this season.

#277

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 10:44 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention another thing that super bugged me about this episode: It's April. This is the time when high school seniors hear back from colleges. You can't apply for the fall semester in April anywhere but maybe community colleges. So why wasn't Will worried about getting Santana and Finn to apply to college back when admissions were still open? It's a good thing Brittany secretly sent in Santana's application and Finn is choosing not to go to college!

#278

Sara2009

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 11:22 PM

I don't think the writers are aware of that. Nobody on the show said anything about admissions being closed now for the fall semester.

#279

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 7:53 AM

Finn is choosing not to go to college!


He is? I thought he was choosing to go to Pace and study acting. (Clearly, I didn't pay enough attention to Finn's aspirations this episode).

There are schools that people could still get into, and realistically, those are the kind of schools that Finn should be looking at anyway. Schools like Ohio Northern or Kent State or other smaller and less selective state schools often keep admissions open at least through May. Not OSU or NYU (or, I suppose, NYADA), but there are non-community college schools. Not that Glee is paying attention to that.

Edited by eireann113, Apr 21, 2012 @ 7:54 AM.


#280

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 1:47 PM

I don't think the writers are aware of that. Nobody on the show said anything about admissions being closed now for the fall semester.


Considering that Pace is a relatively competative school and per their website, early acceptance letters go out in January, for Finn to just now be applying is rather absurd. He certainly is too late for admission for the fall semester, even if he is accepted.

This isn't how the show has presented the situation at all, though. IMO, we're clearly supposed to think that Finn is special. Will, Rachel, and Kurt have all said as much throughout this season.


Finn is a nice guy, but he's hardly an extraordinary talent either as a singer and certainly not as a student. Rachel's opinion is certainly colored by her romantic interests. Will, for some reason that I have yet to really understands, sees Finn as some kind of serrogate that he's imposing his own dreams and regrets on. Kurt was more measured in his praise of Finn, just basically telling him that he can do more than what he believes he's capable of (which as this point was nothing). I think the show has been very carely in pointing out that despite all the praise that has been heaped on Finn by those around him, he really isn't as special as he's been told that he is. And that is what's driving him right now.

Finn is interesting in that he's the guy that seems to have peaked in college. He's facing leaving McKinley and going out into a bigger world that isn't going to care that he was one a football hero or the most popular guy in high school. Outside of McKinley, his deficets will be even more obvious. A college professior isn't going to care that he was a high school quarterback when he hands in his work. He's going to have to prove himself on his own merits and no matter what avenue he choses, he's going to have a difficult time. Unless he suddenly blossoms as a great talent in something, no one is going to stand around and applauding him the way he gets at McKinley. He's afraid - not unjustly - that his greatest life achievements are behind him now.

#281

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 2:04 PM

Finn is a nice guy, but he's hardly an extraordinary talent either as a singer and certainly not as a student. Rachel's opinion is certainly colored by her romantic interests. Will, for some reason that I have yet to really understands, sees Finn as some kind of serrogate that he's imposing his own dreams and regrets on. Kurt was more measured in his praise of Finn, just basically telling him that he can do more than what he believes he's capable of (which as this point was nothing). I think the show has been very carely in pointing out that despite all the praise that has been heaped on Finn by those around him, he really isn't as special as he's been told that he is. And that is what's driving him right now.

[snip] To me, the writers have clearly been propping Finn up as something special since season 1.

I don't think Kurt was measured in his praise at all. He even said "You're a star too Finn, just as bright as Rachel." He even said "there are plenty of us"(referring to himself and Rachel), which implied that Finn would be the most unique of the three in an arts environment. Will never tried to get Finn to pursue a career in the arts, so I don't see how he was imposing his dreams on him. I've also never gotten the impression that we're supposed to think Rachel is wrong when she talks about how talented Finn is.

Edited by TWoP Howard, Apr 23, 2012 @ 1:34 PM.


#282

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 2:34 PM

To me, the writers have clearly been propping Finn up as something special since season 1.


But that's exactly the point. Finn has been "propped up" to be special when in reality, he just isn't. And it's those who aren't in the ND incubator who see Finn in a more rational light. It's Biest who first recognizes that Finn isn't exactly irreplaceable as quarterback, and Cooter who makes it clear that he's just not good enough to make it in the college leagues. He became the defacto male lead of ND because he fit what Rachel and Schu envisioned a male lead should be. Because Kurt and Artie didn't fit that narrow image (Kurt because of his pretty obvious sexuality and Artie because of his disability), it didn't matter that they were better singers - Finn just fit the image better. Finn has bascially been coasting because of other people's impressions about him rather than his actual talents. Even with this sudden desire to become an actor, it's not so much that he's found a dream of his own, but more that he's latching onto someone else's dream.

Finn was getting thrown because he was now being judged in a much more critical light. He was being considered by those who don't have a personal investment in him (romantically in Rachel's sense, and as a serrogate for his own life choices for Schu). Now he's got to stand on his own merrits and being found lacking. And Finn is very aware of this. This is why he's so damned scared. He's facing going off into the greater world where he's no longer going to be Finn Hudson, high school hero. He's just going to be Finn, no longer the coolest or more important guy in the room.

#283

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 3:05 PM

Because Kurt and Artie didn't fit that narrow image (Kurt because of his pretty obvious sexuality and Artie because of his disability), it didn't matter that they were better singers - Finn just fit the image better.


To be fair, in season 1 many of the other character talked about Finn as if he were a fantastic singer. It was only in season 2 that that changed. Rachel even said she needed a male lead that could "keep up with her vocally," which implied that Artie and Kurt couldn't. Finn was supposed to be a better singer than Cory just like Rachel is a better dancer than Lea.

Even with this sudden desire to become an actor, it's not so much that he's found a dream of his own, but more that he's latching onto someone else's dream.


Except that he said that he "always wanted" to be an actor, which tells me the writers don't want us to get the impression that this is a sudden dream of his.

Edited by Sara2009, Apr 21, 2012 @ 3:07 PM.


#284

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 3:19 PM

Except that he said that he "always wanted" to be an actor, which tells me the writers don't want us to get the impression that this is a sudden dream of his.


I still call bullshit on the whole "Finn always wanted to be an actor" conceit since it was never mentioned a single time (or even hinted at) during the whold course of the show. The writers pulled this out of their asses to give Finn a rational for going to NY.

I think that the whole point of season 3 has been to strip away the fantasies harbored by the various members of ND, and refocusing them into adult aspirations that they actually have a shot of achieving. Finn had the illusion that he was always going to be the coolest, most popular guy around and good things will just fall into his lap because he's Finn Hudson. He's now learning that he's actually got to be some real thought and effort into his life and the goals that he thought were all but absolute certainties just aren't going to happen. Mercedes now has to accept that she's going to have to put some serious work and take some huge risks if she wants to achieve her dream of being a famous singer since playing it safe didn't get her anywhere. Kurt had his reawkening earlier in the season - he learned that he's always going to be judged, sometimes unfairly, and he's going to have to work doubly hard and make his own opportunities since nothing is just going to be handed to him. Next on chopping block will be Rachel. She's already had it shoved in her face that she's not the only exceptionally talented girl who's dreamed of being a star all her life and honed her talents from birth. I think that Rachel will be next to discover that the things that she believed were certainties in her life are a lot less certainthan she might have believed.

#285

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 4:19 PM

I still call bullshit on the whole "Finn always wanted to be an actor" conceit since it was never mentioned a single time (or even hinted at) during the whold course of the show. The writers pulled this out of their asses to give Finn a rational for going to NY.


It was contrived. My point was that the writers clearly wanted us to believe that Finn always wanted to be an actor even though there had been no build-up.

#286

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 9:46 PM

I might be setting myself up for disappointment, but I've decided to give Glee the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the Finchel/NYADA mess. There's been such a toxic undercurrent of co-dependency to that relationship this season that I think it has to be deliberate. There've been all these glaring signs that Rachel is NOT happy with Finn, deep down. She gave him her virginity to cheer him up. Like a damn muffin basket. Not to mention that scene in Michael where she breaks down in fear that she won't get into NYADA and she'll end up in Lima for the rest of her life with nothing "except my boyfriend." I feel like this is all leading to Rachel having to give up Finn to live her dream. And I'm down with that.
Is it even possible for the writers to suddenly fail to understand their own character so badly that they'd seriously have her give up New York for Finn?
Don't answer that.

Edited by danicas, Apr 21, 2012 @ 9:50 PM.


#287

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Posted Apr 22, 2012 @ 9:57 AM

Sometime I get mad when Cory puts out a wonderful performance in a pivotal scene and all that get unnoticed because the writing goes the typical stupid Glee way and does no favors for the consistency of his character. Finn's aimlessness and not knowing what to do with his life after graduation has been the overall themes of Season 3. And I don't know if this is the resolution but it certainly is an unexpected one. At least this time, a few of the critics noticed that the scene was good and remarked on it in their recaps.

As for Finn's choice for the future, it's stupid that they had no foreshadowing for this but when you think about what Finn said during that episode, it's understandable why he wants to do it. Finn wanted something that made him feel like he was in the middle of the football field with the crowd cheering and like he was on stage performing with the audience cheering. It's not an admirable characteristic but it's actually in line with how Finn has been portrayed, his need to be popular etc.

#288

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 2:43 AM

catherin, I think that's definitely true. I absolutely loved the moment where Finn held up just long enough to throw the pamphlets away, that was some amazingly subtle work by Cory, and I was a little disappointed that in typical Glee fashion he didn't really get enough time with it.

I was being a bit cynical and assuming that his choice is slightly motivated by being forced to make one. I kind of thought he'd chosen acting mostly because he still doesn't really know what he wants, but he doesn't want to lose Rachel or the life he had with the Glee club. So he just rolled the dice and picked something he'd only really vaguely considered before.

Your interpretation is much better, and it's a damn shame they didn't get that across in the episode, because I think that would've made it a lot less out of the blue for viewers. I can even extend that to the other character who took a sharp turn into wanting to be an actor- Quinn's always been very preoccupied with other peoples opinions and forming herself. Acting's not that odd a choice for her, either.

Edited by HanatheWreck, Apr 23, 2012 @ 2:43 AM.


#289

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 12:31 PM

I was being a bit cynical and assuming that his choice is slightly motivated by being forced to make one. I kind of thought he'd chosen acting mostly because he still doesn't really know what he wants, but he doesn't want to lose Rachel or the life he had with the Glee club. So he just rolled the dice and picked something he'd only really vaguely considered before.

Your interpretation is much better, and it's a damn shame they didn't get that across in the episode, because I think that would've made it a lot less out of the blue for viewers. I can even extend that to the other character who took a sharp turn into wanting to be an actor- Quinn's always been very preoccupied with other peoples opinions and forming herself. Acting's not that odd a choice for her, either.


It's been canon since Season One that Finn is not completely comfortable with the "jock, Big Man On Campus" persona he thinks he should be. He's come back to Glee several times so I don't find it a stretch that he finds it a stretch that he enjoys performing, and that while he has insecurities about his singinig/dancing acting is something he thinks he can handle.

Edited by delplata, Apr 23, 2012 @ 1:40 PM.


#290

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 1:52 PM

The recap is up.

Now for thread business: this is a sampling of problem comments from the last few pages.

…of course that is what we were all expecting him to do…

…so of course he's going…

It's been canon since Season One…

All of these are from posters who posted their opinion as a fact. Just because you see something in the show, or believe something about a character, doesn’t mean that your conclusions and interpretations are fact or "of course" going to happen, or canon. Canon is "Finn thought he got Quinn pregnant, but he didn’t" and other events. Your interpretation of what the character wants isn’t a fact. And using the royal "we" as if you can speak for anyone but yourself comes across as forcing your opinion on the thread. Don’t do those things, please.

The rest of these are boards on boards:

I have never understood why…

I don't get what…

These phrases break the boards on boards rule because they come across as dismissive. If you disagree with someone, great, but just say so an why, rather than imply that their opinion is incomprehensible.

I know everyone is ragging on the…

People ragged on Rachel…

I’m in the minority/probably alone on this/Am I the only one?…

These are boards on boards because it’s your opinion about people or the thread or viewers or the audience, instead of being your opinion of the show. Again, if you disagree with something someone said, just say so and why. Leave your opinion of others out of it, and don’t take the temperature of the thread or count up sides, please.

True. And the writers have never contradicted themselves before. No reason to think they'd start now.

This was sarcasm aimed at another poster, which is never allowed. Save the sarcasm for the show, please, and use respect towards others here.

I mean, if I'm just going to say in response to anything that happens "but the writing is so bad, nothing that happens means anything", then there isn't any point in discussing anything that happens on the show at all. Right?

Please don’t put words in another poster’s mouth, or assume you know how someone is going to respond. It’s dismissive. Share your opinion about the thread, rather than your dismissive assumptions about others.

Finally, we have a rule against repetitive posting here. Make your point once or twice and then move on. And please don’t attempt to end the discussion with a controlling phrase like "let’s agree to disagree." That just comes across as you wanting to make your point, and grab the last word. If you really, truly want to end a back-and-forth discussion, then just don’t post.

I’m not trying to pick on anyone in particular here, but there were too many of these problems for me to write out warnings for all of them. So please take this as a warning, and change your posting style if you recall writing something akin to this. Thanks.

#291

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 2:06 PM

In season one there are negative repercussions to Finn joining Glee club, it's canon that Will Shcuester blackmailed Finn into joining by planting the weed in his locker and he tried to hide that fact from his fellow football teammates.

Finn tries to quit several times in seasons 1 and 2, and each time he gets lured back in. Other than personal enjoyment IMO there are no benefits as far as McKinley High for Finn to stay in New Directions. He gets slushied, alot of the football quit in tandem due to Glee, and he gets mocked and labeled as being part of the losers of New Directions.

IMO there is something about New Directions that appeals to the character Finn, so his thinking he's always wanted to be an actor clicks with someone who likes to perform in front of others and gets personal satisfaction from it. What the show failed to do was connect the dots to why Finn remained in Glee all these years , it seemed to me it was something that reduced him socially around the school and made him part of the outcasts. When the show started he was a popular athlete, and the show has wavered as to how popular Finn still is in the high school.

The show has highlighted Finn's insecurities about the future, and in season 1 in the pilot, it was part of the dialogue that Finn wanted to get out of Lima, Ohio. So Finn's frustration about his future is something that has been shown since season one. It's not in quite the same way as Rachel, but Finn has been shown to have dreams/ambitions. So this episode I liked that Finn still had dreams and ambitious, for as much that the show doesn't give them much context or storyline continuity.

#292

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 2:34 PM

But pushing Finn the way he did, Will gave him a fantasy rather than a dream.

Fantasy vs Dream is in the eye of the beholder. My Directing I professor in college directed Barbra Streisand before she hit it big. And he told her she shouldn't be an actor. I'm sure in his eyes, her dreams were fantasy. (And since Susan Sarandon was sort of brought up through talking about Janet - he directed her in one of her first movies...)

I still call bullshit on the whole "Finn always wanted to be an actor" conceit since it was never mentioned a single time (or even hinted at) during the whold course of the show. The writers pulled this out of their asses to give Finn a rational for going to NY.

I sang in high school. We didn't have show choir, we only had concert choir and madrigals. I sang in college for 2 years. I'd always fantasize about doing Star Search or some such, but never said, "I want to be an actress." On a lark, because my BFF was doing it, I took Acting I one semester and auditioned for a musical.

My acting teacher (who, incidentally, was married to the director I mention)asked me if I was a theater major. When I said no, she told me I should consider it. My major changed from Music (classical style) to Theater in the blink of an eye. I started realizing that everything I loved about singing was the performing of it. I don't think it's all that unheard of for someone to realize that something they dismissed as not attainable might be attainable if they tried it. If you don't ask, the answer is no, right? Well, if you don't try to be an actor, then you never will be.

#293

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 2:46 PM

I did love in the episode the diorama that Mr. Will had of the Glee members and the stage. That is "such" a Will cheezy thing to have.....

#294

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 3:22 PM

I'd always fantasize about doing Star Search or some such, but never said, "I want to be an actress." On a lark, because my BFF was doing it, I took Acting I one semester and auditioned for a musical.

My acting teacher (who, incidentally, was married to the director I mention)asked me if I was a theater major. When I said no, she told me I should consider it. My major changed from Music (classical style) to Theater in the blink of an eye.

Ok, but you took the acting class. And there you discovered your love for acting. And then someone else encouraged you. That's not the same as, "I want to be an actor because I saw a movie, even though I've never done it, and I totally expect to get into this prestigious drama program."

Not to mention that Finn claims this has "always" been his dream.

All they needed to do was give us one scene earlier this season of Finn acting and really enjoying it and being good at it. But he didn't even try out for the musical (not out of insecurity, he just wasn't interested), and then he was terrible in the Christmas Special.

Edited by SNeaker, Apr 24, 2012 @ 3:33 PM.