Jump to content

3-20: "Pants On Fire" 2012.04.15


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.

85 replies to this topic

#61

Rockville

Rockville

    Couch Potato

  • Location:outside Washington, DC

Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 10:09 PM

The sign at Peter's news conference said "Florrick Governor 2012." So the election is this year. That's a much quicker election cycle than the last one.
If he wins, he'd have to move to Springfield, the capital, and that would force Alicia to move with him or not (presumably not). So my early guess is that he loses the election or some other complication happens. I don't think they'd do something convoluted like have him move to the capital and continue the sham marriage by coming "home" on weekends. So realistically, will Peter lose this fall and stay on as state's attorney, or will he drop out of the race or get indicted or some other thing?

#62

pennben

pennben

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 10:41 PM

If he wins, he'd have to move to Springfield, the capital, and that would force Alicia to move with him or not (presumably not). So my early guess is that he loses the election or some other complication


He would not have to move to Springfield, the current and last Governor of Illinois remained in Chicago and have only gone to Springfield when required (big point of contention for those in Springfield). So, that shouldn't factor into whether one guesses whether he wins or loses the election.

#63

stealinghome

stealinghome

    Stalker

Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 11:07 PM

I'm betting that Peter loses the governorship, simply because it might finally provide a situation where Alicia feels she can bow out of the marriage gracefully. I'm guessing the end of S4 ends with Peter losing and Alicia filing for divorce.

I really don't think it's feasible that Jackie faked a stroke--but if she did, I am entirely, 110% sure it will come out in the next episode or two. There's utterly, absolutely no way she could cover up faking a stroke for any real amount of time.

#64

Darn

Darn

    Stalker

Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 11:20 PM

Peter is certainly the type of son that would grill his mother's doctors about her condition. So no, I don't think Jackie faked her stroke.

#65

possibilities

possibilities

    Stalker

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Massachusetts

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 1:51 AM

Jackie looked so PLEASED, lying in her hospital bed. Like she was gleeful over having a stroke. Having a stroke is the best revenge, apparently.

If Peter wins and moves to Springfield, it would take the pressure OFF of Alicia to divorce him, because it would be easy to explain why she stayed in Chicago and they weren't living together. At the same time, it would also take the pressure off her to stay married, because he'd no longer need her to legitimize his political aspirations.

I like what the producers said about the show being about politics. That is why I watch it. I think it's true that there are people who are more interested in political power than personal satisfaction. Alicia has been figuring out where she is on that scale of priorities. Will was fun, but Peter is power. Will loved her, but it was all personal and very insular. She exercises power when she gets involved in Peter's life, but none of it is about her personal happiness, it's all about her influence on things outside her private sphere. I am sick of shows about romantic relationships, because I find them repetitive and boring. But watching Alicia clarify her values, it makes me think about things differently. Sometimes we assume everyone wants what we want, but it isn't always true.

#66

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

    Stalker

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 7:57 AM

I figured that the actually-guilty girl would take the Alford plea and walk away, and then the other two could go back to trial and blame it on the guilty girl, but I don't think that's what happened... did all three take the plea and walk?


Megan, the guilty girl, couldn't take the Alford plea alone. Peter specifically told Cary that all three girls had to take the Alford, or none of them would get it. When Alicia asked Cary about separating the cases, Cary said he couldn't risk separating them. (I assumed he didn't want to get into trouble with Peter.) I think what happened is that Alicia and Diane forced the other lawyer to cooperate with them. I'm not sure now if that meant, going with them on an Alford plea or not.


Is that what happened? I thought they convinced the girl who did it to take an actual guilty plea, by threatening that if the case went to trial, the two friends would take the stand and say it was the 3rd girl who did it. And of course if she was found guilty in court her sentence would be higher than if she took a plea.

#67

exzim

exzim

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:51 AM

Is that what happened? I thought they convinced the girl who did it to take an actual guilty plea, by threatening that if the case went to trial, the two friends would take the stand and say it was the 3rd girl who did it. And of course if she was found guilty in court her sentence would be higher than if she took a plea.


Thanks for asking this, what happened didn't seem to get explained, as somehow it often doesn't get made clear in 'Good Wife' how the cases are won.

The whole Kalinda investigations are starting to be stupid. No one ever tells her to FO, they open their hearts and minds to her even though they could end up with a murder charge.

#68

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

    Stalker

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:56 AM

Oh during that scene I was thinking Mike thought Alicia was secretly recording them (I hoped she was) and that's why he stuck to his story so vehemently. Yeah, anything other than that and the guy should be fitted for a straight jacket.


I figured that was part of it, but it was part of a whole weird politician thing where if he admits he lied, even to Alicia in private it will make it more difficult for him to make it sound like the truth to someone else. So he has to keep repeating the lie to anyone so that it eventually sounds like he is speaking the truth. That plus the recorder and the fact that someone could walk into his office at any time.

#69

watcher1006

watcher1006

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 9:07 AM

possibilities

Jackie looked so PLEASED, lying in her hospital bed. Like she was gleeful over having a stroke. Having a stroke is the best revenge, apparently.

Yes indeed, there are strokes and there are strokes. I recall there was a teacher in my high school who suffered a stroke in the middle of one of her classes, and after she was taken to the hospital and all the medical procedures had all been done she was back in class just a day or so later. And then there are debilitating strokes that leave people speechless, paralyzed, or worse. My impression was that Jackie had indeed suffered a stroke, albeit a mild one that nonetheless put her in a hospital bed with the medical staff taking all the precautions and doing the necessary tests, and that she was milking it for all she could get out of it.

#70

crashdown

crashdown

    Couch Potato

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:New Jersey

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 9:50 AM

I like what the producers said about the show being about politics. That is why I watch it. I think it's true that there are people who are more interested in political power than personal satisfaction. Alicia has been figuring out where she is on that scale of priorities. Will was fun, but Peter is power. Will loved her, but it was all personal and very insular. She exercises power when she gets involved in Peter's life, but none of it is about her personal happiness, it's all about her influence on things outside her private sphere.


Yes, I completely agree. I seem to have come full circle from my initial WTF! reaction to Alicia's standing beside Peter as he announced his candidacy. Personally, I'm not particularly political, and I'd like to see Alicia just disentangle her life from Peter's and get on with it. But I don't find what she did baffling, or weak, or out of character. I get it.

First, politics has ALWAYS been important to Alicia. I read an early review of the show that said that both Alicia and Peter were true believers in the Jed Bartlett (The West Wing) sense of the term: they both honestly believe that politics is something that can change the world for the better. (Remember that good government/bad government parable that Peter told to Alicia in season 1? It was obviously something that was very important to both of them.) Ultimately, Alicia gave up her own working life because she believed in Peter and wanted to support his career. Peter might have had to do unclean things in the SA's office (every politician does), but I don't think he's ever lost the sense that serving in office is doing something noble. Alicia knows that about him, and it's something about him that she still respects, even though she's no longer able to be in love with him.

I think a lot of people tend to think that it's a simple given that personal happiness is the number one goal toward which we all should strive. That's a nice thought, but it's just not the case for everyone in every situation. Right now, stopping Kresteva from being elected is more important to Alicia than snuggling by the fire with someone she loves. That may change in the future, but this is where she is today.

It's also important to realize that Alicia is not doing this FOR PETER. She's doing it for herself, because of her own conscience and beliefs, and because she doesn't want Kristeva to win either over her or have the political power that could ultimately do harm to society. In a sense, she's actually using and manipulating Peter. Peter wasn't certain that he wanted to run--he was actually leaning against it, and Alicia talked him into it. She did that because she believed that he would be a much better governor than Kristeva, but she decided that at the expense of what might have made Peter personally happier. (Don't forget that he told her that he was finally enjoying his job--she didn't care much about that. She had already decided that her big picture goal was stopping Kristeva, and the only way she could do that was with Peter.) Alicia has made a power move for a greater good here, and it's a noble one. (I do believe that she enjoys the trappings of Peter's power somewhat--she used it to get her kids into school, for instance. But that's far secondary to her desire to prevent a crazy person from being governor.) At base, Alicia is choosing to play the role of Peter's wife in order to be able to attack Mike Kresteva and serve a higher political goal. It's a strong choice, even if it's not something that will lead to her personal happiness. But right now, that's not what she cares most about.

#71

rerunz

rerunz

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 11:12 AM

Alicia also really does not want to get divorced unless she absolutely has to, she's had that conversation with her brother about their parents.

#72

CozyKat

CozyKat

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 12:43 PM

Alicia also really does not want to get divorced unless she absolutely has to, she's had that conversation with her brother about their parents.

I have to wonder what constitutes "absolutely has to" for Alicia - at this point, it appears to be major professional wrongdoing on Peter's part (and I'm still wondering if that shoe will drop next season). I'm just impatient with her apparent belief that she can have her marriage both ways - privately separated, politically united - for months on end, as a semi-public figure. But I know it's a necessity for the show, which needs that tension and probably never expected itself to last this long. Maybe they'll let Alicia get divorced while shifting the "technically still married, and possibly still a little bit in love!" baton to Kalinda. (Total speculation on my part; I know nothing.)

#73

possibilities

possibilities

    Stalker

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Massachusetts

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 1:15 PM

I'm just impatient with her apparent belief that she can have her marriage both ways - privately separated, politically united - for months on end, as a semi-public figure.

I actually think this is very realistic and possibly very common. I'm pretty sure Bill and Hillary have this arrangement, for example.

#74

knots

knots

    Loyal Viewer

  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:UK

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 2:29 PM

possibilities

Alicia has been figuring out where she is on that scale of priorities. Will was fun, but Peter is power.


If Alicia is drawn to power, she will never divorce Peter, especially if he wins (there can be hundreds of Krestevas in her/their future) unless she knows she can exercise this kind of power herself. Now that I'd really like to watch.

Edited by knots, Apr 17, 2012 @ 2:29 PM.


#75

possibilities

possibilities

    Stalker

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Massachusetts

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 4:35 PM

Alicia finding she can wield power herself is what I'm hoping for. If Peter's campaign uncovers more scandal (like the racial bias in his employee management or whatever the FBI was talking about 2 seasons ago or who the hell knows what else is in his closet), I can see her finally having to break with him publicly, disavow her connection, and then consider running for herself. It was already suggested by the Democratic Party managers that she's more popular than Peter, and that they actually do want her to take more of a leadership role, not just be a prop for Peter. I don't think she realizes this, and even if someone told her I don't think she's ready emotionally to believe it. But I think she's getting close to that point, I really do.

Being on the inside, like with the Blue Ribbon Panel, and dealing with Kresteva's lying to her face without a glimmer of conscience, I think was closer than she's been before to the corruption she abhors. She knew intellectually that there was BS in politics. But mostly she's been hands off while Peter dealt with it. Her first brush with it up close made her mad as hell and determined enough to fight it that she even failed to fully consider the impact on her kids.

I think she is growing both fed up enough and confident enough to be ready to kick ass without a proxy.

Edited by possibilities, Apr 17, 2012 @ 4:45 PM.


#76

crashdown

crashdown

    Couch Potato

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:New Jersey

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 5:52 PM

I think she is growing both fed up enough and confident enough to be ready to kick ass without a proxy.


That's definitely what I hope will happen, and frankly what I expect to happen. The show is about politics, and the show is about Alicia. A culminating arc that sees Alicia in politics herself makes all kinds of sense. I think it's both wonderful and inevitable.

#77

Cress

Cress

    Stalker

  • Gender:Female

Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 3:09 AM

I thought they convinced the girl who did it to take an actual guilty plea, by threatening that if the case went to trial, the two friends would take the stand and say it was the 3rd girl who did it. And of course if she was found guilty in court her sentence would be higher than if she took a plea.


An Alford plea is a guilty plea. As the lawyers explained to all their clients, they would plead guilty, but the court would let them go with time served. Meghan's lawyer wanted her to not take the Alford plea, because then she would be retried in court, could be found innocent, and she could also sue for being wrongfully imprisoned. The lawyer wanted to make big money in the lawsuit, and they couldn't sue if Meghan pleaded guilty in anyway. Diane and Alicia said basically, "Well, if you want to go for your lawsuit, then we'll get the other two girls to testify in the court that Meghan's guilty. So if she gets convicted again, you can't win your lawsuit."

I wasn't sure before, but now after reading other people's recaps, I think I believe that Meghan's lawyer convinced Meghan to take the Alford plea as well. Now all three girls (not just Meghan) have pleaded guilty, and they go free today instead of waiting another year in prison. Meghan (and her lawyer) don't get the big money they wanted, but Meghan goes free for the murder. The other two girls have to live with being felons for the rest of their lives, even though they might be innocent (or maybe they were accomplices to Meghan after all? I'm not 100% sure).

Edited by Cress, Apr 18, 2012 @ 3:10 AM.


#78

ilovemoose

ilovemoose

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 5:17 AM

Quite honestly, I do not see Alicia divorcing Peter anytime soon. For as long as the show is on, and it is called The Good Wife, we will see her in that capacity. Whether she and Peter eventually reconcile romantically or not - is more of the question.

I don't believe she wants to divorce Peter for a variety of reasons, but that is just my opinion.

I also don't know that we know enough to say that Alicia will not be happy in this role - supporting Peter. I think there are parts of her that enjoys politics, enjoys the role of things (maybe not being in the direct spotlight), but right now, she's in a different place then she was when Peter was States Attorney (pre-scandal and show). She told Owen that she was going to do what she wanted to do and I believe that is what we are seeing.

I also don't think Alicia talked Peter into doing anything. She didn't completely buy his reasons for not wanting to run, but supported him if that is what he wanted. All she did was show that she believed in him and his abilities - which meant a lot to Peter. His decision to run, to me, was his decision.

My question is.....how long will the election run for? All next season? I only ask because MP is not signed for the whole season (if his pilot is picked up)...so what happens to Mike? Does Peter take him down? I feel like the results of the election are up in the air.....it could be that Mike does win and goes off to Springfield or stays in Chicago, but we don't see him.

#79

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

    Stalker

Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 7:17 AM

An Alford plea is a guilty plea. As the lawyers explained to all their clients, they would plead guilty, but the court would let them go with time served. Meghan's lawyer wanted her to not take the Alford plea, because then she would be retried in court, could be found innocent, and she could also sue for being wrongfully imprisoned. The lawyer wanted to make big money in the lawsuit, and they couldn't sue if Meghan pleaded guilty in anyway. Diane and Alicia said basically, "Well, if you want to go for your lawsuit, then we'll get the other two girls to testify in the court that Meghan's guilty. So if she gets convicted again, you can't win your lawsuit."

I wasn't sure before, but now after reading other people's recaps, I think I believe that Meghan's lawyer convinced Meghan to take the Alford plea as well. Now all three girls (not just Meghan) have pleaded guilty, and they go free today instead of waiting another year in prison. Meghan (and her lawyer) don't get the big money they wanted, but Meghan goes free for the murder. The other two girls have to live with being felons for the rest of their lives, even though they might be innocent (or maybe they were accomplices to Meghan after all? I'm not 100% sure).


That is interesting, I thought they convinced Megan to take an actual guilty plea, as in she walks into the courtroom and tells the judge she did it by herself. It seem strange to me that they would do it the way you described, since it sounded like Kalinda had, or was very close to having evidence to prove that their client wasn't invovled. I know Carey said he wasn't able to split the cases, but if they had enough evidence to prove this is what happened, wouldn't the judge have to? I mean the Alford plea for Alicia's client seems even worse, now that they actually have evidence to prove that she didn't do it. Although this makes me wonder, what was Kalinda doing during the original trial, that she couldn't find this stuff out?

#80

stealinghome

stealinghome

    Stalker

Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 9:11 AM

It seem strange to me that they would do it the way you described, since it sounded like Kalinda had, or was very close to having evidence to prove that their client wasn't invovled.

Actually, I don't think they had anything of the sort. By the time the episode ended, I think Diane and Alicia were actively wondering about their client's innocence. Because if one of the girls is actually guilty, how can you really know the other two aren't?

Alicia went off the reservation when she threatened to have her client testify against Megan. That was a huge gamble, because I actually don't think they could've convinced their girl to turn on her friends, even for her own freedom.

Although this makes me wonder, what was Kalinda doing during the original trial, that she couldn't find this stuff out?

My sense was that LG didn't handle the initial case--that they only came on-board for the appeals, etc.

#81

Good Lion

Good Lion

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 2:51 AM

A poster above wrote something about how Alicia is postponing fireside cuddles with a loved one for now, and engaging her moral imperative, etc. Unfortunately, I forgot to copy it, and couldn't find it again. But I think those days are far behind her. I'm not sure that Alicia is capable of loving anyone besides her kids. Will and Kalinda both accept their emotional failings; Alicia just feels superior to everyone. She's so aloof and queen-like. Every time she deigns to be nice to someone, you can practically see her noting in a mental ledger: "I did that good thing. I am the better person."

And now she's decided to give up her life indefinitely, so she can enjoy Peter's Power (or something), and exercise her righteous indignation. I do think it's a huge step back for Alicia, but can't feel sorry for her loneliness or her lack of clarity because she's made absolutely no attempts to build a life for herself. If this show lasts another two or three seasons, there might be other affairs, but I really can't see her ever leaving Peter, and I can't see them in a genuine relationship again.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to another political run. I was just watching the ep where Eli was strangling the DNC guy in the broom closet, and it was magnificent. That Peter/Jackie confrontation scene was super intense, and she had it coming, but still... I was joking earlier with my mom about how all the DSAs will start going into Peter's office and kissing his ring. He can be pretty darn scary. I've always been a Cary fan, and Matt Czuchry continues to get even better I think. I hope he winds up at Lockhart/ again. I miss his relationship with Diane. It would certainly create a different dynamic at the office. This ensemble cast is really remarkable. I like the idea another poster had about Kalinda having some sort of MI-6 type background. She might be using spy tactics to get everyone's secrets! Which would account for her high rate of success...

Edited by Good Lion, Apr 19, 2012 @ 2:58 AM.


#82

exzim

exzim

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 8:16 AM

I like the idea another poster had about Kalinda having some sort of MI-6 type background. She might be using spy tactics to get everyone's secrets! Which would account for her high rate of success...


Kalinda and her rate of success is the major part of this show which is making it unwatchable for me. In 24 hours this superdick can find the solution to any crime, break into any computer system, fool any witness into believing she's someone she isn't and generally has super investigating powers that outperform the investigators in crap programs like CSI. In this last episode this was taken to a new extreme. What happened to the IRS investigation. Or did superdick trick them into believing she was dead - a hopeful plot move.

#83

crashdown

crashdown

    Couch Potato

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:New Jersey

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 8:24 AM

A poster above wrote something about how Alicia is postponing fireside cuddles with a loved one for now, and engaging her moral imperative, etc. Unfortunately, I forgot to copy it, and couldn't find it again. But I think those days are far behind her. I'm not sure that Alicia is capable of loving anyone besides her kids. Will and Kalinda both accept their emotional failings; Alicia just feels superior to everyone. She's so aloof and queen-like. Every time she deigns to be nice to someone, you can practically see her noting in a mental ledger: "I did that good thing. I am the better person."


Poor Alicia. I can see how someone would come to this conclusion, but I just don't think that about her. I think she comes off as aloof and queen-like because she's so broken and emotionally damaged that she's just retreated from any kind of closeness. We saw her healing in the first two seasons, but the Peter/Kalinda reveal just about destroyed her. Under the best of circumstances, she's a reticent, internal person who lives in her own head, but I don't think that ultimately she's cold and emotionless. (My tag line: she's a Vulcan, not a robot. Vulcans have strong emotions; they're just experts at suppressing them.) I have great faith that repairing her friendship with Kalinda will also heal a lot of her brokenness. The thing that I've always been attracted to about the Alicia/Kalinda friendship is that they're both essentially broken people who for some reason connect in such a way that they're less broken when they're together. Talking with Kalinda helped heal Alicia in season 1, and I think (hope) that it will do the same thing in season 4.

#84

stealinghome

stealinghome

    Stalker

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 10:49 AM

What happened to the IRS investigation.

It's still going on? Come on, this show is infamous for "dropping" plot lines only to pick them up like half a season later. Give it some time.

Spoiler


#85

Espy

Espy

    Couch Potato

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 7:02 PM

Kalinda and her rate of success is the major part of this show which is making it unwatchable for me. In 24 hours this superdick can find the solution to any crime, break into any computer system, fool any witness into believing she's someone she isn't and generally has super investigating powers that outperform the investigators in crap programs like CSI.


Agreed. I think I've enjoyed this season more than the last because there's so little Kalinda. For me, a little goes a long way. I like her role as investigator, but the super hero thing is just so overplayed, it's unbelievable to me that one person can achieve all that she can in the space of one episode. I'm also one of those people who never understood the Kalinda/Alicia friendship because it seemed so one-sided. Kalinda's emotional withholding isn't interesting to me, it's more irritating. And the dangling of the secrets in her past is supposed to keep us hanging on, wanting more, but it just makes me roll my eyes a little. I'd love it if the show would just give us Kalinda's story flat out, and then maybe her character will seem a little more realistic because she'll be fleshed out more.

This episode? Thinking back, I can't really remember that much about Alicia. I suppose that's an issue because the show is about her, but she's so hard to read that it becomes difficult to be on her side. I really like how they've shown us that Alicia enjoys the power that comes from being married to Peter, and that's perhaps why these women stick around. I think she'll stay with him because her career also benefits from it. I just want her to jump in either way, either make a commitment to staying married for political/power/access reasons, or take a stand and get divorced. Enough.

That said, it is realistic to me that she'll eventually stay with Peter. There are bonuses to being married to him, and her career advancement can also be credited to her connections. For some people, personal happiness is not the be all and end all, and maybe Alicia will find that she's one of those people after all.

#86

izabella

izabella

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 11:50 PM

So, if Peter wins, Alica will be the First Lady of Illinois. I'm sure that will make David Lee's head pop off.

Can she still practice law if she is First Lady, or is that some kind of conflict of interest? Did Hilary continue to work as a llawyer when Bill was a governor?

Edited by izabella, Apr 19, 2012 @ 11:52 PM.