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4-17: "Everything In Its Right Place" 2012.04.06


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#121

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 7:54 AM

I really, really want Altlivia to find out or remember that she had a baby before this season is over. I was hoping that AltLincoln would mention something about Henry as he was dying. He did say he's been blown up before, which shouldn't have happened as it did in this timeline since Olivia never would have crossed over with the other Cortexikids to save Peter.

It's not enough for me for Olivia and Peter to remember the first three seasons. Even if Walter remembers, I'll still want Altlivia to remember her kid, for Broyles to remember seeing his dead doppleganger, for Astrid to remember her own friendship with Peter, and even Walternate to remember that he almost killed his son to save his universe. Without these experiences, these characters aren't as interesting to me.

I completely agree. So many poignant moments have been erased. I get that Peter and Olivia are the main characters but I don't think the emotional development of the other characters, Walter especially, should be treated lightly. Having an actual child erased, like Faux has, is tremendously important. She deserves to remember. If she doesn't, she's a totally different person. Same with Walter, as I said in an earlier comment. Having raised another Peter, having kidnapped the alt version of his dead child, is a HUGE deal. You can't substitute that experience with anything else, no matter how interesting Amber Walter's predicament is. This Walter we are seeing now is not the same. That's why I feel so disconnected to these characters (except for Peter -who is the same Peter we know and love- and Lincoln -who is new, so I have formed an opinion on him solely based on this season).

And when it comes to Fauxlivia remembering her baby, it strikes me as strange/emotionally manipulative that Peter "found out" about lil' Henry but Fauxlivia herself has no idea. Is it more important for Peter to find out about it because he's the lead, so he's the one that matters, and Faux is irrelevant? Even though Peter had no idea about that baby and Faux herself actually gave birth to it and became a mother? I don't know, the whole thing about Henry being born to the "wrong" Olivia has always struck me as insensitive, and the fact Fauxlivia has forgotten that ever happened (or, really, the entire thing was erased, it has not actually happened to this Fauxlivia) is even harsher to me.

#122

sleepingwalker

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 9:41 AM

Yes, indeed, it feels a bit like the Red universe has been thrown under the bus. Do we know if Meana even knew WIlliam Bell in the current timeline? William Bell was essentially entirely a Blue/Amber universe person who seemed to commute between universes. It would seem that this probably never happened in the current timeline.

As I've said before, this timeline resetting thing that JJ did with Star Trek is a very hazardous thing. It really weakens the "network effect" of watching for multiple seasons. I really do hope that the payoff is worth it in the end.

#123

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 11:31 AM

Would you rather Alt-Liv remembers Henry, or Peter tells her? I can only imagine the conversation:
Peter: Lovely afternoon, isn't it? Oh, by the way, in another timeline you seduced me under false pretenses and became pregnant with a child who got erased from the universe at the same time I did. His name was Henry.
Altlivia: You got into Walter's stash of weed again, didn't you?
On the whole, I think it would probably be better for her to remember Henry on her own. :D

#124

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 4:23 PM

Its a very interesting approach that they are playing at. Usually (in science fiction) timeline resets and alternate universes are absolutely separate. This show is really playing with these things getting all mixed up. I've never quite seen this approach before. Does anyone have an example from another work?

We are usually thought of as the sum of our past. The characters in the show are now the sum of many pasts weighted in different ways. Its a very interesting dramatic viewpoint. Its very destabilizing and interesting. I do still miss the other (original) Walternate.

#125

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 5:31 PM

The closest I can think of is from Farscape, where wormholes became an important part of the story. In Farscape they introduced the concept of "Unrealized Realities", which played in a few episodes.

#126

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 5:36 PM

Its a very interesting approach that they are playing at. Usually (in science fiction) timeline resets and alternate universes are absolutely separate. This show is really playing with these things getting all mixed up. I've never quite seen this approach before. Does anyone have an example from another work?

Answering in the Other Shows thread.

#127

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 11:35 PM

From the recap:

Over to some dilapidated flophouse, where a couple of guys behind the boarded up windows are injecting themselves with some sort of red drug -- must be an Earth-2 thing. <...> It's cold enough in there, despite the presence of more candles than the Police's "Wrapped Around Your Finger" video, to see his breath.

Actually, I think this may be a Red universe thing: the drug is injected, but also exhaled.

#128

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 6:48 AM

I completely agree. So many poignant moments have been erased.


But they haven't been. Peter remembers all of it.

#129

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 10:00 AM

I completely agree. So many poignant moments have been erased.

But they haven't been. Peter remembers all of it.

But Peter didn't remember baby Henry because he never found out about him until now. And obviously he doesn't remember, say, Alt!Lincoln's proclamation of love for Faux, or Faux's reaction to that as well as motherhood. Or, like, her friendship with Alt!Linc and Scarlie. Or Alt!Broyles' state of mind when he sacrificed himself. And he can't "remember" what Walter felt after he brought Red Peter home for the first time, or how that changed him (because he didn't know Walter before then). Or even how Walternate became obsessive and evil after learning his son was in the wrong universe.

I consider all these things poignant; they're not the focal point of the show but we were shown certain events and they shaped my perception of those supporting characters as well as Walter (who is a vital part of Fringe). With these experiences gone, especially those Peter was unaware of, my emotional attachment is just not as strong. Alt!Linc's death was what made me realise, I was like "eh". For a character who once made me cry.

I agree that Peter is the one "player" who retains his memories and his emotions without an outside interference (if you'll allow me to call the Amber Olivia memories that) but even he hasn't experienced everything we've seen in the past three seasons so he can't remember it because he never knew it. His emotional state is precious, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the other characters. At least Olivia is remembering, but what about Walter? It seems we're stuck with Amber Walter who has accepted this "new" (to him) Peter as his son. If I were Peter, I'd miss my own Walter, the one who raised me, for all his faults. Hell, I miss him now.

I was actually thinking about that, about Walter and how he is now. And I was reminded of the second episode of the season, in which the murder-prone professor was "saved' due to the influence of one good woman, as opposed to his alt who became a serial killer. But then the professor lost all his memories of her; and yet he still "remembered" what she taught him. Maybe that's what the writers are going for, maybe we're meant to understand that even though Walter has forgotten his previous life with Peter, the emotional impact of the events he forgot (or never lived, depending on how you see it) remains. Maybe the point is that even though the cognitive part of his memories is gone (if you will), the emotional repercussions can still be felt.

I don't particularly like the idea, it is too romantic for my tastes, but I could see the writers angling for it.

#130

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 10:35 AM

The writers pretty explicitly stated that was what they were going for, when they introduced the palimpsest concept.

#131

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 12:04 PM

And it's where Peter's return came from, even though he had never existed, they unconsciously, longingly willed him back into being.

#132

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 1:58 PM

The concept is pretty simple (IMHO): these events both really did happen and did not happen... at the same time. That's because the nature of reality is not linear (as the Observers could tell you).

Also, Peter's continued existence proves that reality is not linear. Otherwise, his existence is a paradox. If he can be loved back into existence, so could Henry.

#133

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 3:25 PM

Maybe that's what the writers are going for, maybe we're meant to understand that even though Walter has forgotten his previous life with Peter, the emotional impact of the events he forgot (or never lived, depending on how you see it) remains. Maybe the point is that even though the cognitive part of his memories is gone (if you will), the emotional repercussions can still be felt.


I also still have a bit of trouble with such a simple explanation of love just causing Peter to form out of thin air. I do believe it is a driving force in it all, though. In the early part of the season, it seemed that Peter was actively trying to break through because of the anomaly he caused physically to Olivia which was the burn on her arm. Sure one can claim it was Olivia but why would Olivia burn herself? One could also tie it to the machine in the final moments before Peter disappeared in season 3. After having been in the machine and Olivia figuring out how to psychically manipulate the machine, could not either Peter or Olivia have had a reflex action if they had felt him slipping away even if it was just for a mere instance? It could explain why Walter and Olivia only felt the strangeness of the two weeks after the bridge was formed. It's one thing having a hole in your life and Walter grieving a son, but why that funny feeling right after the bridge was formed if they had lived a whole different life? What if in that one instant before the new timeline formed that the machine had been given one final command and that was to bring back Peter at that instant in time? Why else would the Observers feel the need to go back in time and get rid of Peter by making sure he didn't survive? Maybe they tried it once before and the machine brought him back and that is why they interfered again a literally killed him as a child by letting him die. And possibly if they can't keep Peter dead, they'll go after Olivia. I just can't help think that once the machine was programmed for Peter that it would ensure his survival. Maybe Peter won't die as long as the machine is operational? Probably not, but what's another whacky theory! :)

#134

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 3:58 PM

September said it was both: Peter refusing to let go of Olivia and Walter as well as they refusing to let go of him. I expect the machine had some sort of role in preserving Peter's body, as well, so that the emotional ties "merely" had to create a portal for his return instead of regenerating him from nothing.

#135

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 7:10 PM

I don't think it's been mentioned: Canaan = the Biblical promised land. There are lots of stories connected to that, I'm not sure which they might have been referencing in this episode.

#136

Princess Lucky

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:03 PM

The writers pretty explicitly stated that was what they were going for, when they introduced the palimpsest concept.

I actually mostly connected the palimpsest concept with Olivia's memories being overwritten but still legible, meaning she could "read" them, access them. And of course it also applies to the entire season, but I hadn't linked it to Walter specifically, especially because he seems to be reacting to this "new" Peter as Amber Walter, there's an emotional connection but it's not what Walter and Peter used to have, not by a longshot . Hm.

Edited by Princess Lucky, Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:04 PM.


#137

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 12:22 AM

It seems fairly obvious to me that AltLincoln isn't really dead. He specifically reminds us that he previously survived being half blown up back in season 2. And then he immediately dies off-screen? Until I see a body (and maybe even after that, considering this show), I'm calling bullshit.


I think AltLincoln is alive and under cover as Lincoln. The team concocted the plan after realizing there was a deeply imbedded mole. They had not told Col. Broyles that the sniper was dead otherwise he would have warned Meana. And earlier, AltLincoln made a point about always keeping him informed. He didn't in this case. They must have known.

And there's non way AltAstrid made a mistake - or there was a continuity error - when she called him Agent Broyles. They made too big of a deal out of it before.

Edited by jkepley, Apr 14, 2012 @ 12:25 AM.


#138

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 12:42 AM

One odd part was Our Lincoln comparing lives with their Lincoln. They go through all these events that were the same, then Our Lincoln notices the part of town that is being restored after having a ginormous rift that had to be sealed to save the world and yet he never seems to come up with ANYTHING that might have been different enough to have an impact on his personality.


I was under the impression that the only thing that separated the Lincolns was that Alt Lincoln had a version of Olivia in his young career, while the other had not. Just me, but that's what I thought they were trying to get at with that conversation.


I'm catching up on previous episodes, so I'm joining the conversation late. But this is exactly what I thought. It was beautifully subtle the way that the two Lincolns were dissecting the fine points of their lives (prom, science teacher) but they never figured out that the big differences were right in front of them. Alt Lincoln had been tethered to his world by Olivia and the Fringe Division family (and their status as Big Damn Heroes) for a long time. His confidence and ease seem to have naturally grown out of his interactions with Fauxlivia (he seemed to have picked up some of her mannerisms and humor) and his security in his place in the world. Our Lincoln, by contrast, was lonely, adrift, feeling unloved/unloving. This was the episode that really drove home how much Fauxlivia and Alt Lincoln meant to each other.

#139

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Posted Apr 5, 2013 @ 9:33 PM

I'm catching up on Fringe via Netflix, and I have a couple of questions about the shapeshifters' MO in this episode. (I always find the shapeshifters, in their various 'incarnations,' perplexing, though. ;) )

--Why was one of the corpses headless?

--Why was the picture found in the locket assumed to be a picture of the dead person wearing it? (Who walks around with a locket with their own picture inside, unless it's a two-pic, side-by-side locket? And since there was no mention of scanning two pictures, I assume that wasn't the case.)

#140

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Posted Apr 7, 2013 @ 8:02 AM

--Why was one of the corpses headless?

Do you mean the one that had the locket? I think that one was just so decomposed that when Lincoln pulled on the locket the head just fell right off. That's who they were calling headless later on at Fringe Division.

Earlier in the scene Lincoln says something about 18 bodies and 19 heads, but I'm guessing that's not what you're talking about.

--Why was the picture found in the locket assumed to be a picture of the dead person wearing it? (Who walks around with a locket with their own picture inside, unless it's a two-pic, side-by-side locket? And since there was no mention of scanning two pictures, I assume that wasn't the case.)

Well it was a picture of her and her dog. Some people really love their pets as much as a child. I don't think it would be weird to have a picture of yourself and a loved one, even if the loved one is rather furry. Anyway, I don't think the assumption at first was necessarily that it was the victim, but it was still a lead to finding out who the victim was but maybe finding a family member who knew she was missing.

This episode's shapeshifter was different because he was a preliminary prototype that hadn't worked out.

This episode is so sad. Why did they have to kill poor, snarky AltLincoln? Just so BlueLincoln and AltLiv could get together? I still think it's really damn suspicious. This is a world that healed Walter's bullet wound in a few hours and where AltLincoln himself survived being burned to a crisp. Do we think AltBroyals had a hand in making sure AltLincoln didn't survive? He acts surprised when Astrid tells him though, so maybe not.

Edited by petunia846, Apr 7, 2013 @ 8:12 AM.


#141

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Posted Apr 8, 2013 @ 4:55 PM

This is a world that healed Walter's bullet wound in a few hours and where AltLincoln himself survived being burned to a crisp.


No, it wasn't. That was the blue-redverse. This is the yellow-redverse. For all we know, Peter dying in 1985 had butterfly repercussions on scientific research during the '80s, '90s and beyond.

There's no indication that the technology that healed Walter and Linc in the blueverse would necessarily have been discovered or implemented in the yellowverse. Think of how many medical and technological breakthroughs have happened in the past 30 years...

Speaking of bullets, it's just occurred to me that Peter is the only one of the 6 main characters on Fringe who never got shot. (except by Observer-guns, which don't count) Don't ask me why I just recalled that piece of trivia...

Edited by jipijapa, Apr 8, 2013 @ 4:59 PM.


#142

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Posted Apr 8, 2013 @ 6:24 PM

Remember that the Red universe is also the one where they have trouble making a flu vaccine, and also have not been able to eradicate smallpox. They could have deficiencies is certain parts of medicine. In any case I don't think it's a stretch that you have a significant chance of dying if you're shot in the chest with an high power rifle even with 20 or 30 years of advancement to current medical technology.

#143

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Posted Apr 12, 2013 @ 7:29 PM

Tangential to the last comment, there's a bit in Richard Preston's "The Demon in the Freezer" that indicates that smallpox eradication hinged on one decision. Indira Gandhi did not want to cooperate with the international campaign until the country's most prominent guru advised her to do so. If India had held out, the entire campaign would have been torpedoed.

#144

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Posted Apr 14, 2013 @ 12:57 PM

I think we tend to presume too much about the hand of mere science and technology in why we have some of the things we have. The Indira Gandhi story is instructive - because politics also plays a role, and also corporate interests. There are all kinds of reasons like this, why television was "invented" one way and not another (there were lots of competing ideas for television out there, but only one won out), why we have this kind of light bulb and not that one in our homes, and it isn't always because it's the technologically better thing.

That said, I was surprised to be rewatching the Science Channel marathon and in "Immortality" apparently both Jonas Salk and Watson/Crick were responsible for the same things in this universe as in the alt-U. I kind of thought that was a big missed opportunity to have them be famous for *alternate* achievements. Wonder why the writers didn't go for that?

As for Original (Alt) Lincoln, maybe this is sacrilege but he just was a less interesting character than Our!Lincoln was. Once they paired him with Our!Linc for an episode, I'm not sure where they could have taken him.