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4-16: "Nothing As It Seems" 2012.03.30


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#121

zwhippersnapper

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Posted Apr 3, 2012 @ 8:25 AM

We got another reference to pee in this episode. Are TPTB trying to tell us something?

Olivia (sticks a pregnancy test in her pee): Peter, I'm pregnant!
:P

By the way, I just realized this: in season 1, we had Big Eddie; now in season 4, Olivia has a nephew called Eddie.

#122

coppercanyon

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Posted Apr 3, 2012 @ 2:13 PM

Markham's name is Edward too.

#123

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Posted Apr 3, 2012 @ 5:46 PM

Not cool? Walter exiting a bathroom holding "HUMP".

Don't forget the accompanying comment that he'd been building up a lot of... tension.

I get that the monster has to be a monster to fulfill its purpose as a Fringe plot, but I don't think I can get over any possible desire on the part of anyone to voluntarily become such a monster. Besides, how can it be an evolutionary step forward if it just up and dies without a fight?

You would never catch me in the bowels of that ship taking care of those things. Hybrids and parasites give me the creeps.

Not to mention when they have long, deadly appendages and are kept in cages with widely-spaced bars. Redshirt alert!


Regarding poor Hard-luck Lincoln, I can understand why he feels resentful of Peter swooping in and taking Olivia away just when he felt he was building up something of a connection with her, although none of that does much to make him interesting, unless Peter's assessment that he's a "good guy" rankles enough to turn him into a super-villain! Wouldn't that be fun? But I did like that Walter tried to buck him up by complimenting him on his chess skills.

By the way, while it's simpler to say that Peter returned because of love, I don't think the writers can claim that about Olivia's memories. At least not without a more detailed "account" (that's not the right word, but you catch my drift) of what is happening to her. This episode indicates the writers are aware of that and have incorporated it to the season's arc. I'm glad, and also curious to see how it's handled.

I'm also holding out hope that some clear way of addressing this issue will happen before the end of the season. It's all just way too vague.

#124

Ageha

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Posted Apr 3, 2012 @ 6:08 PM

Regarding poor Hard-luck Lincoln, I can understand why he feels resentful of Peter swooping in and taking Olivia away just when he felt he was building up something of a connection with her...


I actually don't really understand it-and I don't mean to induce any eye rolling (or seem like I'm being deliberately obtuse)-but Lincoln ought to feel just as resentful toward Olivia (maybe he does, I don't know), especially considering Peter didn't do any "taking" of anyone. I know it's just an expression, but it kind of bugs me.

#125

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Posted Apr 3, 2012 @ 6:18 PM

I wonder if Jones' treatment involved trying to induce amnesia to make AmberOlivia more likely to cooperate, and BlueOlivia came into the void (brought on be reading a Wired article on drugs to suppress memory).

#126

kristinj

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Posted Apr 3, 2012 @ 6:38 PM

I actually don't really understand it-and I don't mean to induce any eye rolling (or seem like I'm being deliberately obtuse)-but Lincoln ought to feel just as resentful toward Olivia (maybe he does, I don't know), especially considering Peter didn't do any "taking" of anyone. I know it's just an expression, but it kind of bugs me.

I don't necessarily know that he's not resentful of Olivia - it's just that this Olivia is no longer the Olivia he knew. Someone Lincoln cares about (regardless of the extent/nature of their relationship) elected to actually give up their memories and current life in order to become someone else, out of love for another person. It's a pretty serious decision to make, and at this point it's just one more loss, one more crazy thing that Lincoln's being asked to accept in his new life with Fringe. It would be a little overwhelming, and I think he's handling it pretty well, all things considered.

#127

Ageha

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Posted Apr 3, 2012 @ 7:51 PM

Well, I more meant that I don't understand it if his position is that Peter "took" Olivia away from him, which is what I would take issue with. Peter didn't do anything inappropriate and Olivia is her own person, capable of making her own decisions.

#128

NorthTexas

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 9:03 AM

I find it curious that Olivia is now not aware of the memories she built with Lincoln and yet is still aware of who he is. I'm not sure how that is even possible. If she doesn't remember the diner, then she wouldn't remember having met him, so how would she know who he is to her? Or is it that she doesn't have any memories of Lincoln from the point that Peter entered her life, so the diner memories would go but anything pre 4x04 still remain? I hope Olivia remembered to pay her utility bills, I don't think the Peter memory excuse would work.

#129

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 11:41 AM

Well, I more meant that I don't understand it if his position is that Peter "took" Olivia away from him, which is what I would take issue with. Peter didn't do anything inappropriate and Olivia is her own person, capable of making her own decisions.

Heh, but who is that person? Because it's not the Olivia Lincoln has known. She's a different person now, who has forgotten most of her life and remembers another life. It may feel right for her, but from his perspective? This is pretty weird. If Amber Olivia, the one Lincoln had known, had said "sorry Linc, I love Peter" it would be totally different. But this? A different Olivia? Weirdness all-around, and in my view it explains his bummed out attitude.

I find it curious that Olivia is now not aware of the memories she built with Lincoln and yet is still aware of who he is. I'm not sure how that is even possible. If she doesn't remember the diner, then she wouldn't remember having met him, so how would she know who he is to her? Or is it that she doesn't have any memories of Lincoln from the point that Peter entered her life, so the diner memories would go but anything pre 4x04 still remain? I hope Olivia remembered to pay her utility bills, I don't think the Peter memory excuse would work.

That's what I've been wondering from the start. If she has forgotten that moment in the diner it is a reasonable assumption that she has forgotten (or will forget) most of the things that happened before that point. So, does she remember meeting Lincoln? Or is he some guy who is there and likes bacon?

This all goes back to my questions about how (and if!) current Olivia is forming new memories. The writers need to clear this up, especially regarding the point in time when Blue Olivia "took over" (or regained, if you will) Liv's brain (was it Peter? The cortexiphan?). Because that should serve as the starting point for current Olivia's new memories. And it should also be the "death" of Amber Olivia and (all?) her memories.

I won't spell it out in more detail because it gets pretty complicated when I think it over, heh, but the writers have chosen this path with the conflicting memories and I'd like to see them address it definitively. Not in detail, not in a super-hard sci-fi way, just Liv coming to terms with it in a simple human way, perhaps with a few stray explanations by Walter.

#130

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 12:12 PM

I actually don't really understand it-and I don't mean to induce any eye rolling (or seem like I'm being deliberately obtuse)-but Lincoln ought to feel just as resentful toward Olivia (maybe he does, I don't know), especially considering Peter didn't do any "taking" of anyone. I know it's just an expression, but it kind of bugs me.



Yes, Ageha, just an expression. I was just looking for a simple way to say that Lincoln thought he had something going with her, then all this weirdness started happening, and now she's with Peter. Didn't mean to imply that there was any kind of competition or malice or anything, which we know isn't the case. In fact I'm not entirely sure to what extent Peter is aware of how Lincoln felt about Olivia, but judging from their conversation in the car, he knew something was up. So my point is that Lincoln is at the very least unhappy about the whole situation, regardless of who it's directed towards, and I completely get why he feels that way. Plus he might be a porcupine.

#131

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 12:42 PM

I agree, what's going on with her should be addressed in the future (and time is sorta running out on it).

Possibly - and I'm just throwing this out, based on Walter's palimpsest speculation - she still has access to both sets of memories, she just needs the proper context to access them. Like how Peter used to help Walter recall thing by getting him to thing back to what he was doing at the time.

I don't see how the AmberOlivia memories could be erased. I can see she might lose easy access to them, because some of them (40% is the figure I'll use, based on what Broyles said) are conflicting. But they're all her memories, she deserves to have all of them. It's not like she's being possessed by some foreign consciousness.

#132

Ageha

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 3:46 PM

Heh, but who is that person? Because it's not the Olivia Lincoln has known. She's a different person now, who has forgotten most of her life and remembers another life. It may feel right for her, but from his perspective? This is pretty weird. If Amber Olivia, the one Lincoln had known, had said "sorry Linc, I love Peter" it would be totally different. But this? A different Olivia? Weirdness all-around, and in my view it explains his bummed out attitude.



No, sure, of course, but that's entirely a separate issue from Lincoln's feelings. No matter what's happened, she's an autonomous person and he while can feel as badly about it as he wants, I was just saying that it wouldn't sit well with me if the way he felt was that she was "taken" away from him.

Yes, Ageha, just an expression. I was just looking for a simple way to say that Lincoln thought he had something going with her, then all this weirdness started happening, and now she's with Peter. Didn't mean to imply that there was any kind of competition or malice or anything, which we know isn't the case.


I'm sorry if I made a mountain out of a molehill! We really don't know how Lincoln would describe how he's feeling, it's just the idea that he might feel *this* way kind of drove me crazy. Also, honestly, while I feel badly for him over what happened, and I understand how much has happened to him in such a short amount of time, I just...I really just don't think they were close enough for him to brood about it too much.

Plus he might be a porcupine.


I quite literally lol'ed, so thank you for that! :)

Possibly - and I'm just throwing this out, based on Walter's palimpsest speculation - she still has access to both sets of memories, she just needs the proper context to access them.


I really hope you're right, Corwin, not only because that's path of least sorrow in my book, but I sort of feel that if Olivia could do all of these other amazing things, somehow it'd be hard to believe she couldn't also retain all of her memories. For whatever reason, the idea that only *one* set can exist seems too much to be believed!

Edited by Ageha, Apr 4, 2012 @ 3:48 PM.


#133

DixieGirl

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 4:05 PM

Especially since the OriginalFlavor Olivia had an eidetic memory...

But it does seem kind of similar to what we saw in the redverse - which Olivia memories are "real"? And I like the idea of not forgetting, but not being able to access.... sounds a little like Grey Matters....

#134

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 4:34 PM

I just had this thought - it's similiar to what happened to Peter, in The Last Sam Weiss. There, his childhood memories of being in the RedVerse seemed to take over for a while, while he walked around in some sort of fugue.

Hmm. Don't know what it means. But it's interesting.

#135

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 5:24 PM

So much doesn't make sense and I absolutely just don't care; I love these characters. I feel more for them than on any other show. The scene with Walter giving Peter the gifts and his expression after Peter hugged him was just so sweet.

Loved when Walter was explaining about how they use fat and then said "I know what you are thinking" and they all just look at him and he says something like "why don't they just eat people!" and they all turn and look at him wide eyed. Loved it. Wonderful moments.

I'm still a tad confused about (well, about a whole lot of things) but the whole business with Nina drugging Olivia and the camera that had been placed in Olivia's apartment. Is this Nina good or bad? I just don't have clarity about that.

Flying porcupines? What's not to love? I am so sad thinking this may not return. I will so miss these guys and their relationships and the brilliant, crazy stuff these writers dream up for us. This is pure entertainment.

Oh - also loved when Walter was talking about we all evolved from slugs from the sea and says as an aside "depending on who you talk to" - aahhh...I want a Walter in my life.

#136

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 6:59 PM

Also, honestly, while I feel badly for him over what happened, and I understand how much has happened to him in such a short amount of time, I just...I really just don't think they were close enough for him to brood about it too much.


Yeah, I honestly don't know whether Lincoln had any "possessive" feelings towards Olivia or how much; I'm sticking with my original theory that Lincoln generally is in a world of hurt, and the weirdness shows no sign of letting up. He's getting his sulk on, and Olivia and Peter (and their quietly giddy, beaming happiness) just happen to be right in his face whenever he looks up.

Possibly - and I'm just throwing this out, based on Walter's palimpsest speculation - she still has access to both sets of memories, she just needs the proper context to access them.

I like this idea, too. I wondered whether Olivia was just paying less attention to the Amber!memories, or prioritizing them differently as she adjusts. She'd just been discussing the definition of "weird" with her FBI-mandated shrink, but claimed not to remember talking about it with Lincoln in the diner. I think she might be a little distracted by being so damn happy, heh. Like in the photo recap! Cool story, Lincoln, now let's catch the PorcuBat so Peter and I can go home and [s]get busy[/s] [s]procreate to save the universes[/s] have a nice wine tasting.

So much doesn't make sense and I absolutely just don't care; I love these characters. I feel more for them than on any other show.

Truer words were never spoken!

Edited to note that apparently you can't nest strikethroughs in italics? Anyhoo y'all get where I'm going with that, hurrr hurrr.

Edited by Lurkey, Apr 4, 2012 @ 7:00 PM.


#137

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 11:52 PM

Just looking at the nutritional facts for peanut butter and bacon; peanut butter actually has more calories and fat than bacon so Lincoln should have been going at the peanut butter as well!

#138

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 9:41 AM

Calguy...I think it had to be animal fat...you know, to up the ICK factor.

I wonder if Olivia just has so many memories going on right now that the connections to many of them are "lost/hiding" Kind of like when you know a fact/name and you just can't access it or you know you learned something but you have no recollection of the facts. Unless a strong emotion is involved (Peter), the neural connections aren't always strong enough to fire up without more stimulation.

Lincoln reminds me of that kid at college your freshman year that was so weirded out by being in the new situation that he attached himself to the first girl who paid attention to him and never quite got that she was just being friendly and not trying to seduce him.

#139

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 12:17 PM

Oh, I think AmberLiv was interested, she was just as awkward as he was. Note her playing with his hair in BtWYNB.

As for her memory, Walter's surprisingly uninvolved. I would think he'd have come up with a few ideas by now, as he did before with the flatworm smoothie. Maybe he subcocsciously approves?

#140

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 12:49 PM

Oh, I think AmberLiv was interested, she was just as awkward as he was.

She was actually more interested in or in love with him than the other way around, since she was the one, who initiated all the advances, that's why it baffles me that he didn't pursue a relationship, when she reciprocated his feelings and that he didn't do or say anything to convince her to keep her identity and ditch her imposed fake love for Peter, so that they could be together. I'm sure Olivia would have accepted. And now he's moping around uselessly. So annoying!

As for her memory, Walter's surprisingly uninvolved. I would think he'd have come up with a few ideas by now, as he did before with the flatworm smoothie. Maybe he subcocsciously approves?

Maybe they just told Walter (and the rest of the team, I guess), what September confirmed about Peter being already home. I don't think this Walter would have accepted Peter and stopped with his hostility otherwise. Although, who knows, maybe he'll continue flip-flopping, demand those presents back and be a jerk to Peter again in the next episode.

#141

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 1:32 PM

I think that I understand what's happening to Olivia, at least from her subjective perspective. I think it's important to remember is that we're forgetting and misremembering things all the time even without crazy-science interference. And Olivia's super-memory was never depicted as a flawless recording device inside her head, or as a super power (at least not to my knowledge). She just has a really good head for names, facts, and faces that have some sort of importance to her (I find it interesting her super-memory is just the way we expect all TV characters' memories to work).

I think the basic rules are these. There's whatever point Olivia began to transition (sometime in "Welcome to Westfield" or "A Better Human Being" as far as I can tell) that I'm going to call point A. At that point she has access to her blue-Olivia memories, but she still needs some sort of context or reminder to recall them, in the same way I don't have access to all of my memories at once. Then there's that transitionary period where she has access to both sets of memories, during which her Amberlivia memories begin to feel hazy and indistinct and begin to fade away. But then after point A she she can form new long term memories. So, for example, she could hypothetically remember telling off Jones and alt-Nina about the first time she called Nina by her first name, even though she no longer has access to the original memory. This would explain why she understands that Lincoln is a friend and a coworker.

I also think it's important to remember she can regain a great deal of access to the amber timeline without any crazy-science help. She can ask other people about details of her life, go through old case files, etc. She's a smart girl; she understand she's the weirdo whose memories are out of sync with the rest of reality, and she's going to try and see things from other people's perspectives and reform those relationships.

About Lincoln, moping seems to be putting it a bit harshly to me. He's a little confused and maybe ticked off, but he's trying to be as nice and understanding as possible. I think he saw her more as a friend and a mentor anyways, and pretty much that entire relationship has gone away. He's been having trouble adjusting the Fringe Division anyways, and now the person he was closest to within it just turned into another person. That's pretty weird.

#142

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 1:58 PM

I barely saw any interest in Lincoln by Olivia. There was a brief moment in the beginning of the season when she was lamenting her lack of real feeling for anyone where she was maybe going to attempt something with him, but that was it. It seemed half hearted on her side at best. I never saw her as being in love with the guy at all.And it never happened because her blue memories and emotions surged back at which point Lincoln stood no chance. Does she even remember that she had tinkered with the idea of something other than friendship with Libcoln. Probably not.

#143

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 2:05 PM

Oh, I think AmberLiv was interested, she was just as awkward as he was. Note her playing with his hair in BtWYNB.


I think that she was doing it for:
1) Make him look more like redLincoln.
2) Remind him that his mission is to spy on Walternate.

#144

Ageha

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 2:21 PM

I barely saw any interest in Lincoln by Olivia. There was a brief moment in the beginning of the season when she was lamenting her lack of real feeling for anyone where she was maybe going to attempt something with him, but that was it. It seemed half hearted on her side at best. I never saw her as being in love with the guy at all.And it never happened because her blue memories and emotions surged back at which point Lincoln stood no chance. Does she even remember that she had tinkered with the idea of something other than friendship with Libcoln. Probably not.


That's pretty much been my view, though I admit to worrying that I only felt that way because I'm an unabashed shipper. I think whatever we were shown of Olivia's efforts to connect with him were meant to illustrate that she was trying to bridge that gap, to fill that hole in her life that she said she'd always felt, where something was missing. It wasn't actually about Olivia and Lincoln ever actually being together, but meant to serve the P/O storyline and, perhaps, Lincoln with Faux (although that's pure speculation and remains to be seen).

#145

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 2:22 PM

I never saw a big romance between AmberOlivia and BlueLincoln either. I think AmberOlivia, in her own dorky way, had realized that she was isolated, and was trying to reach out in friendship/support and maybe a little of "this is what normal people do".

And as many others have stated much better than I can - Lincoln was suddenly alone (Robert's death), isolated (loss of partner, new city, new coworkers), and pretty freaked out - so he was reaching out to the only comfort/stability he knew.

It seems to me that Lincoln, much like Walter, is feeling very protective of Olivia. Now we don't have much to go on (part of one episode, basically), but it looked like Lincoln and Robert, AND Robert's family, had a close relationship - so he's used to being close to his partner in a platonic way, and it seems logical that he would be comfortable building a similar relationship with his new partner.

And I think Calguy2009 hit it on the head - she was using that moment messing with Lincoln's hair to speak confidentially.

Finally, the one thing that has really convince me - if TPTB intended Lincoln's attitude now to be that of a scorned lover, I think we would've seen more concrete evidence of that type of relationship earlier in the season... and I just didn't see it.

#146

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 6:43 PM

I don't see him as a scorned lover but he did think he had a chance with her and Peter knew how Lincoln felt and even gave him a nudge in Olivia's direction (the bit with the glasses) so Peter, being the sensitive/decent guy that he is, feels it should be brought out into the open instead of Lincoln's disappointment (which is more what I am seeing) in not having a chance to pursue a romance with her, festering quietly. I think Peter was a good friend to him in talking to Lincoln about it; and, Lincoln appreciated it and was, seemingly, honest.

I guess I just see it all differently than some other people.

#147

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 8:07 PM

I have to agree with Navona. I think Lincoln may have wanted to try to have a relationship with Olivia because she made such an impression on him. I do think, however, that in time he would find he loves Olivia as a partner like he did his first partner. I think it would be similar as how Faux sees her Lincoln. I cannot forget how Faux seemed to look a bit surprised when she first met our Lincoln. She looked at him sideways a time or two. I am very excited to see how the relationships between Faux and the Lincolns progress. I would also like to know why she broke up with Frank when she seemed to care for him so much before.

#148

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 11:26 AM

I love Astrid, especially her frown at Walter's "I know what you're thinking: 'Wouldn't it be easier just to eat people?'" And she's like, "No, no that is completely not what I was thinking at all. Also, Ewwww!"

#149

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 9:24 PM

How many times has that kitchen been used? I think I've seen it for "guest appearances" at least three other times.