Jump to content

This again?! Creators that repeat themselves...Ad nauseam


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.

51 replies to this topic

#31

Virginia Plain

Virginia Plain

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 3:32 PM

I have question for everybody, when does a director/writer become repetitive in their work as opposed to having a distinct style? Is there a difference?

#32

lastdaughterfk

lastdaughterfk

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 8:49 PM

I have question for everybody, when does a director/writer become repetitive in their work as opposed to having a distinct style? Is there a difference?


I'm woman enough to admit that this is similar to asking what is the difference between a Mary Sue and a Chosen One? Is a very personal and subjective definition, IMO.

My personal definition is when I can predict what will happen with at least 80% of accuracy in regards to a creator, without having too much info of the work. I will say a person with an style, IMO. Does not become predictable you feel at ease with the work because it feels familiar but you still can find variations withing the same themes like following a painter in their different periods of their artistic creations like watching Degas's dancers, to use an example there is familiarity (dancers) with variations (I'm sure some people will think that waiting and dancers in the bar are too similar but the way they use the color, lines and so one make them difference that we can tell the artist is in another place of their lives)
Sorry for the comparison of painters I had training on painting and history of art so it was the closest thing I could mention.
It applies also to writers if any of you is a fan you can tell more or less that the writer is going through changes by the way the characters breathe and live and how he treats certain themes in different stage their lives, YMMV.

Hey, I like Buffy and Firefly as much as the next fan (and considerably more than any George Lucas-associated product except for Raiders of the Lost Ark), but there is absolutely no way that Whedon is on the level of pre-prequels George Lucas in terms of the power he commands and the money he rakes in for studios. Really, there's no comparison between the two. If George Lucas has directed an Avengers movie fifteen years ago, then I have no doubt that the studio would have taken an extremely hands-off approach, just to make him happy. Whedon being given that same amount of freedom just because he has a loyal (but let's be honest, somewhat small compared to Star Wars) following? I really can't see that happening.


I personally think that he ruined X-Men and I wish Marvel would had cut his storylines and its consequences and say that it was an alternative reality, but they kept his changes so I really can't say they don't think of him as their George Lucas. Trust me I hope that I'm wrong in this one.

#33

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

    Stalker

Posted Apr 22, 2012 @ 1:14 PM

But seriously, wouldn't they stop him from killing off any love interests, because they would still want them in the Iron Man (or Thor, or whatever) sequels?


Exactly. It's not like they said, "Hey, let's get Joss Whedon," and then they let him go to town without ever checking in again. They're not dummies. They probably sat him down and grilled him thoroughly about what his plans were for the story and characters, making sure that nothing he was doing was going to interfere with their own future plans. Whedon certainly has his own ideas on how to do things, but he's not Spielberg. He doesn't get totally free reign. If Marvel doesn't want him eliminating characters willy-nilly, then he's not going to be doing it. And I'm sure Whedon is a reasonable guy who understands that he's working on one part of a much larger puzzle in which all the pieces have to fit together.


I can see marvel allowing it. Hell I can see marvel asking for it or at least totally getting behind it. I mean they have to know that killing off a love interest is practically Whedon's calling card. Plus they have to know that killng someone that the audience thinks is important would totally amp up the buzz around the movie. Plus I am sure every exec at marvel/disney has seen The Dark Knight, and remembers the scene where the Joker killed Bruce Wayne's girlfriend. That was pretty shocking when I watched it, I can totally see either the execs telling whedon they want something like that to happen, or Whedon using that as an excuse for doing what he always does.

Plus how many people go to marvel comics movies to see Pepper Pots or Jane Foster? Probably not that many, and I bet marvel knows exactly how many do. Plus like another poster said, death in the marvel universe pretty much means nothing.

#34

IttyBittyFlavur

IttyBittyFlavur

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 22, 2012 @ 4:29 PM

Marvel could let him kill a LI just out of the fact that he has a loyal following


I'm fairly certain the Marvel fanbase outnumbers the Whedon fanbase. But even if it didn't, Marvel is not going to sacrifice their fanbase for his. They need people to show up for future Marvel movies regardless of whether they are also Whedon movies.

And I agree that Whedon is not so almighty in Hollywood clout. He just doesn't have the output or the numbers.

#35

Bruinsfan

Bruinsfan

    Stalker

  • Gender:Male
  • Location:the South
  • Interests:hockey, horror, science fiction, mythology, food

Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 3:09 PM

I'm fairly certain the Marvel fanbase outnumbers the Whedon fanbase.

If by Marvel fanbase you mean moviegoers who've seen, enjoyed, and gotten enthusiastic about Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, etc. then yes. If you mean die-hard comic book fans familiar with the source material, then no, that's probably less than 150,000 people all told. I'd imagine even a decade later Buffy and Firefly fandom can top those numbers.

#36

lastdaughterfk

lastdaughterfk

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 6:26 PM

If by Marvel fanbase you mean moviegoers who've seen, enjoyed, and gotten enthusiastic about Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, etc. then yes. If you mean die-hard comic book fans familiar with the source material, then no, that's probably less than 150,000 people all told. I'd imagine even a decade later Buffy and Firefly fandom can top those numbers.


So very yes. Comic Book fans are smaller and have less economic power nowadays than movie goers if there is an uproar for any LI dead. All they need to do is publish an special miniseries tie in with the movies, bring back to life the person in question, have him or her say a tearful good bye and just continue the movie sequels with the new LI. They had done that so many times before is not even funny.

Edited by lastdaughterfk, Apr 23, 2012 @ 6:27 PM.


#37

IttyBittyFlavur

IttyBittyFlavur

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 6:58 PM

If you mean die-hard comic book fans


Then they should be compared to the number of die-hard Whedon fans -- which would probably mean the ones who have purchased the Buffy comics. And thus the circle completes...

FYI, I don't limit the Marvel fanbase to those buying comics today.

Edited by IttyBittyFlavur, Apr 23, 2012 @ 7:00 PM.


#38

Bruinsfan

Bruinsfan

    Stalker

  • Gender:Male
  • Location:the South
  • Interests:hockey, horror, science fiction, mythology, food

Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 9:38 PM

Thankfully, being a devoted fan of the TV series does not obligate one to pay good money for the concentrated fail that is the comic book.

#39

BDArizona

BDArizona

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Tucson, AZ
  • Interests:Left wing politics, sci-fi, sports, competitive reality shows

Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 12:26 AM

People die in movies all the time. Not sure this is Whedon's "thing". I just think there are more shippers around who get more obsessed than ever about shipping and have an easier way to get their shipping ideas out there. I don't care if he does or does not kill someone off, but I don't think he will. Whedon is a comic fan. He knows this isn't his creation; it's his take on someone else's creation. I don't think he'll do anything that can't be undone.

I personally think that he ruined X-Men and I wish Marvel would had cut his storylines and its consequences and say that it was an alternative reality, but they kept his changes so I really can't say they don't think of him as their George Lucas.

He was brought in to fix what they considered someone else's fuck-ups. If they had wanted to cut storylines, they would have; they already had done so. I think they have a great deal of respect for him, as a writer who is a comic fan.

#40

ubi

ubi

    Stalker

Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 11:46 AM

I've grown weary of Tim Burton's "dark fairytale" style. It's like most of his movies remind me of Edward Scissorhands and The Nightmare Before Christmas.

Edited by ubi, Apr 26, 2012 @ 10:07 AM.


#41

Sam Vimes

Sam Vimes

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 8:19 PM

I can see marvel allowing it. Hell I can see marvel asking for it or at least totally getting behind it. I mean they have to know that killing off a love interest is practically Whedon's calling card.


The way I see it Marvel is going to treat the Avengers movie the way they treat the Avengers comic book. In the comics major changes in a characters status (abilities, supporting cast, love interest, etc...) occur in their own books. So nothing major will happen to Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, and (possibly) the Hulk in this movie.

Hawkeye and Black Widow on the other hand are fair game.


Now one thing to watch out for is when a big speech is undercut. That is something that Whedon loves to do, and it's so obvious once you know to look for it. An example from the last season of Buffy is when the Watchers give a big speech about going to Sunnydale to help Buffy. Only to have the entire building be destroyed with them in it.

Edited by Sam Vimes, Apr 25, 2012 @ 8:24 PM.


#42

lastdaughterfk

lastdaughterfk

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 1:04 AM

Hawkeye and Black Widow on the other hand are fair game.


I actually fear for Hawkeye more than for Black Widow, Agent Mariah Hill should be safe too. Joss already got some flak for not having more female "strong" characters. He wouldn't dare to kill the only two he has in the team so far, YMMV.
My money is on Jane Foster if I have to pick a female from the group Natalie Portman seems that type that wouldn't want to tie herself to another franchise and killing her off in a dramatic way could be a turning point so she could act the hell out of it.
Gwyneth could use the roles on Iron Man so Pepper should be safe and I doubt Betty Ross will be part of the movie given how The Incredible Hulk ended. My second choice is and elderly Peggy Carter, just because of the "I had a date" line could be a Chekhov gun for both to have that last date is so cliche that it might happen.
Agent Colson, Hawkeye and Happy Hogan has the "too nice to live" written all over his face, Dr Erik given the extra scene in the end has "noble sacrifice" trope going on for him. Those are the ones that I think are in most danger and I don't think this movie could be taken seriously if one of the good guys doesn't die so at this point is a matter of choice, YMMV.


Now one thing to watch out for is when a big speech is undercut. That is something that Whedon loves to do, and it's so obvious once you know to look for it. An example from the last season of Buffy is when the Watchers give a big speech about going to Sunnydale to help Buffy. Only to have the entire building be destroyed with them in it.


Forgot that. Totally true. I think at this point we could have an Avenger's drinking game. Buffy speak, inspirational speech that leads to a major disaster, LI dead, I will be playing it at my movie theater on May 4.

Edited by lastdaughterfk, Apr 26, 2012 @ 1:34 AM.


#43

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

    Stalker

Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 7:55 AM

The way I see it Marvel is going to treat the Avengers movie the way they treat the Avengers comic book. In the comics major changes in a characters status (abilities, supporting cast, love interest, etc...) occur in their own books. So nothing major will happen to Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, and (possibly) the Hulk in this movie.


Except the avengers movie is less like the avengers comic and more like a comics major crossover event (Secret Wars, Operation Galactic Storm). They need to have something big happen to raise the stakes, other wise how do they explain why Thor and the asgardians were able to beat Loki last time, but this time it takes a whole team of superheros. The quick and easy way to do that is kill someone off (and considering that half the movie is probably going to be action scenes, you they probably won't have a lot of time to slowly develop that Loki is a giant badass). Plus while Whedon didn't killing characters, he loves to kill off people you think are safe in order to make things more serious.

I actually fear for Hawkeye more than for Black Widow, Agent Mariah Hill should be safe too. Joss already got some flak for not having more female "strong" characters. He wouldn't dare to kill the only two he has in the team so far, YMMV.
My money is on Jane Foster if I have to pick a female from the group Natalie Portman seems that type that wouldn't want to tie herself to another franchise and killing her off in a dramatic way could be a turning point so she could act the hell out of it.


I think Hawkeye is probably safe. I mean if there is character that Whedon loves to write for it is the non-superpowered wiseass. Hawkeye has been a non-superpowered wiseass for like 40+ years. I just hope that they can avoid making him a wise ass by having him spout off a bunch of annoying pop-culture references.

And now that you mention it I think maybe Jane Foster is a more likely candidtate than Pepper. I Portman spent probably like 10 years doing the star wars prequels. I am not sure she wants to do that again. Plus when she signed on for Thor I don't think she was an Oscar winner. Killing her off would be super dramatic, plus it would get her out of the series and show people that Loki means business. Plus with her or with pepper if they wanted to bring either back for IM3 or Thor 2 they could easily bring the actress back and just have her appear in flashbacks.

#44

IttyBittyFlavur

IttyBittyFlavur

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 12:15 PM

Call me nitpicky, but maybe we should wait to see what Whedon actually did before we tear him to pieces for it...

#45

MaggieElizabeth

MaggieElizabeth

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 3:56 PM

I agree with those who think Jane is a likely character to be killed off in The Avengers, because if the series stays true to the comics (at least from what I've heard), Thor will eventually realize that Sif is his true match. By contrast, I'm not sure the Iron Man series would work without Pepper. As disappointed as I was with her characterization in Iron Man 2 (and this was after I liked her in Iron Man), I can see she plays the important role of Everygirl, an easy point for audience identification. She is needed. I don't think Jane is.

If Peggy dies, please let it be of old age/natural causes. This would be just as tragic, just as poignant.

#46

ribboninthesky1

ribboninthesky1

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Female

Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 5:03 PM

I agree with those who think Jane is a likely character to be killed off in The Avengers, because if the series stays true to the comics (at least from what I've heard), Thor will eventually realize that Sif is his true match.

I don't wish Jane to die, but I admit that my heart cheered a little at the possibility of this. That "relationship" really dragged down an otherwise fun, entertaining movie.

#47

lastdaughterfk

lastdaughterfk

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 7:47 PM

And now that you mention it I think maybe Jane Foster is a more likely candidtate than Pepper. I Portman spent probably like 10 years doing the star wars prequels. I am not sure she wants to do that again. Plus when she signed on for Thor I don't think she was an Oscar winner. Killing her off would be super dramatic, plus it would get her out of the series and show people that Loki means business. Plus with her or with pepper if they wanted to bring either back for IM3 or Thor 2 they could easily bring the actress back and just have her appear in flashbacks.


Except that
Spoiler


Call me nitpicky, but maybe we should wait to see what Whedon actually did before we tear him to pieces for it...


Trust me I want to be wrong but Whedon past sins should be mentioned IMO, who knows maybe he will rethink his normal script and challenge himself to do something different, life is crazy like that.

#48

Bruinsfan

Bruinsfan

    Stalker

  • Gender:Male
  • Location:the South
  • Interests:hockey, horror, science fiction, mythology, food

Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:55 PM

If Peggy dies, please let it be of old age/natural causes. This would be just as tragic, just as poignant.

I say Steve should see to it that she dies with a smile on her face.

#49

tam1MI

tam1MI

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Male

Posted Apr 29, 2012 @ 12:55 AM

Call me nitpicky, but maybe we should wait to see what Whedon actually did before we tear him to pieces for it...


Those who saw what Whedon actually did in AVENGERS can tell you every bit of tearing was completely justified. Only he went for his [o]other[/i] calling card - killing off a character because he or she was basically a good, decent person. I don't know if he does this because he thinks it will be more poignant or because he finds characters who's basic description is "good person" boring to write for, but he always does it. Especially if that person is an LI as well, then it's like he gets bonus points or something.

#50

lastdaughterfk

lastdaughterfk

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 29, 2012 @ 3:14 AM

Those who saw what Whedon actually did in AVENGERS can tell you every bit of tearing was completely justified. Only he went for his [o]other[/i] calling card - killing off a character because he or she was basically a good, decent person. I don't know if he does this because he thinks it will be more poignant or because he finds characters who's basic description is "good person" boring to write for, but he always does it. Especially if that person is an LI as well, then it's like he gets bonus points or something.


He pulled a Tara/Penny/Fred?? Freaking unbelievable. I truly though that I will jinx it if I write it down. Please don't tell me this person had a chance at love or found out that someone else loved him (and I'm guessing from my list is a male) right before the big pull? He loooves to do that too.

Just to clarify I will watch the movie (tickets already preordered and paid) it was never about supporting characters I had loved before Joss entered the picture I just wanted to discuss the weak points he could bring to the franchise. Oh well everybody seems to love them. Maybe we the ones exposed to Whedon for so long are the ones seeing the repetition and the rest of the world still sees this as "revolutionary storytellin!" for the sake of The Avengers franchise I hope this freshness lasts as long as ours did, YMMV.

Edited by lastdaughterfk, Apr 29, 2012 @ 3:19 AM.


#51

lastdaughterfk

lastdaughterfk

    Fanatic

Posted Jun 19, 2012 @ 11:51 PM

He pulled a Tara/Penny/Fred?? Freaking unbelievable. I truly though that I will jinx it if I write it down. Please don't tell me this person had a chance at love or found out that someone else loved him (and I'm guessing from my list is a male) right before the big pull? He loooves to do that too.


Thinking about it they did established that "there was a cellist" right before killing him...I know it was not Whedon call but I can't imagine he was too heartbroken about writing it and he could just not had mentioned the love interest, oh well....


I wanted to bring back this thread of mine to place a temporary watch on Quentin Tarantino. Don't get me wrong I will be at opening night at Django enjoying all its over the top violent bloody glory, but really revenge again? I can see myself not that enthusiastic about him doing yet another revenge movie after this one unless is revenge of an alien against earthlings or something really surprising and still it would have to be a hell of a plot, YMMV.

#52

RL1

RL1

    Fanatic

Posted Jun 20, 2012 @ 6:15 AM

Tim Burton......he just became an add, rinse, and repeat director now. Same ol'. Same 'ol! Ed Wood was the best he ever did. After that......it's all downhill.

Edited by RL1, Jun 20, 2012 @ 6:15 AM.