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2-13: "Beside the Dying Fire" 2012.03.18


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#631

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 12:32 PM

Because Rick told them not to, T-Dog and Daryl wanted to go back to make sure, Glenn asked them to and Carol pointed out they couldn't be sure she wasn't dead which tells me they all would've gone back for Andrea if it weren't for Rick, so it's not "ridiculous" to lay it on him when Rick issued the orders himself.

But as Rick said "either she's dead or she's not there". There was no point going back to the farm to find her because if Andrea was still alive, Rick correctly surmised, she would have legged it. And there was no protests after he made that point, because IMO, it was pretty faultless logic.

There were no protest because Shane was dead, not because the orders were logical IMO (Rick was too far gone to look logical at that point).

Edited by agora, Mar 31, 2012 @ 12:33 PM.


#632

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 12:41 PM

I don't understand what the relevance of Shane is? Are you saying that Shane would have insisted on going back to find her, becuase I don't think he would have done. Although, yes, he might have disagreed with Rick just for the sake of disagreeing with Rick.

#633

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 1:06 PM

Because Rick told them not to, T-Dog and Daryl wanted to go back to make sure, Glenn asked them to and Carol pointed out they couldn't be sure she wasn't dead which tells me they all would've gone back for Andrea if it weren't for Rick, so it's not "ridiculous" to lay it on him when Rick issued the orders himself.




I agree to a certain extent but here's the kicker- I can understand T-Dog and Carol not simply taking off to find her but Daryl is his own man so I was a bit surprised he relented to Rick's stance ..
However I do think under the circumstances I agreed with Rick but if I was Andrea I'd be pissed about it LOL !!

Edited by housekeeper, Mar 31, 2012 @ 1:07 PM.


#634

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 1:49 PM

Actually, both Daryl and Glenn have a pretty good idea that he's telling the truth, as they encountered the dead, unbitten Randall. Daryl was already openly contemptuous of Shane's obviously bogus story, and certainly figured out that Shane had killed Randall and then lied about it. Daryl had also figured out that Shane killed Otis, because despite Shane's bogus story of Otis dying as a hero "covering" Shane, Shane showed up with the dead man's gun. So I think Daryl will probably back up Rick's version of events if anyone questions it.


Not to mention that in the farmhouse right before the walker siege, Daryl and Glenn recounted to the others how Shane's tracks were right alongside Randall's tracks, proving that they were walking together instead of Shane chasing him. He mentioned other funny things they found as well that clearly implied their suspicion that Shane's story was bullshit.

I think the group's silence after Rick told them he killed Shane were more out of shock than anything else. Rick will have a harder time getting them to move past the secret he kept about Jenner's last words than he will getting their forgiveness for killing Shane.

In this particular episode, it irked me that they didn't take the time to collect at least the Gatorade and bottled water that was left behind for Sophia before they departed for "the coast."


I thought they did. In the last shot of them leaving the highway spot, I didn't see any supplies on the hood of that car. My guess is that they took whatever hadn't spoiled in the sun over time.

Edited by JanGator, Mar 31, 2012 @ 3:36 PM.


#635

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 2:19 PM

When Rick told the others that going back for Andrea was pointless, it was before he had admitted anything on Shane. There wasn't any possibility of "Ohmygawd, Rick'll kill me if I disobey" mentality at that point. T-Dog himself said that he saw Andrea go down; T-Dog didn't even attempt to drive towards her when he was right there. So no, I don't see him going back for Andrea unless it was a group decision. Lori and Beth were with T-Dog and saw her go down too. Carol ran away from Andrea without a glance back. Hershel already lost two members of his family (not blood related, but still), so why would he want to risk his daughters? Who's left?

Glenn and Daryl, yes. But they're smart and know a no-win situation when they see one. Either Andrea is dead or she isn't there. Which is actually true. So any character harping on Rick about it (which actually there aren't any) is more of a emotional choice than a rational one. While Glenn would stay put, Daryl has no problem speaking his mind and going his own way if he thought it was for the best.

#636

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 5:57 PM

Actually, he did: Rick had just told them he killed his best friend because he was undermining his authority, there's no way for Glenn to tell what Rick would've done to Maggie's family if he or Maggie undermined him as well. Rick was acting like crazy more than with a meltdown to me.


Rick did not say he killed his best friend because he was undermining his authority. He said he killed his best friend because this best friend was a danger to the group. He said he killed him because Shane led him into the woods to try to kill him.

Anyone can, if they want, dispute whether Shane was a danger to anyone else other than Rick at this point. I'd say that if Shane had succeeded in his plan, he would still face opposition from Daryl, Hershel and possibly Glen, and that Daryl and Hershel might have been in danger from an increasingly erratic Shane. Room for debate there - maybe Shane would be satisfied with being leader and having the family he wanted, and become a good leader who makes much more pragmatic decisions than Rick and is superior to him in every way. However, the second statement is undoubtedly true, as we viewers know - Shane killed Randall and lured Rick into the woods intending to murder him. That is a fact.

Rick never threatened Glen nor Maggie's family.

Edited by Lollia Pollina, Mar 31, 2012 @ 5:59 PM.


#637

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 7:38 PM

Rick never threatened Glen nor Maggie's family.


Rick was acting truly looney tunes. He stood by the fire and told the crew that they could either go his way or hit the highway. Everyone was cold, scared, exhausted, hungry, and now the group go to guy threatens to throw them out of this very fragile life raft into a sea of zombies and scavengers. Rck did not directly threaten Glen nor Maggie's family but his behavior did not encourage them to express disagreement.

#638

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 8:03 PM

How, exactly, is Rick going to "throw them out of their fragile life raft"? Has the fact that he is "loony tunes" suddenly given him the power of the Incredible Hulk?

The group has wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They don't want to make decisions; they leave that to Rick. Then they criticize him and label him as "dishonourable." Not Rick's shining hour but the group doesn't come off much better. Everyone was compassionate to Carol when she lost her daughter in horrifying circumstances. Where's their compassion for Rick who lost his best friend?

The group wants Rick to be some "John Wayne" hero who always knows the right thing to do, and is never affected by anything he does. Instead, they've got a guy who does his best and makes mistakes and who has real emotions when he kills someone. Too bad, folks, John Wayne's dead.

Edited by Lollia Pollina, Mar 31, 2012 @ 8:17 PM.


#639

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 9:17 PM

How, exactly, is Rick going to "throw them out of their fragile life raft"? Has the fact that he is "loony tunes" suddenly given him the power of the Incredible Hulk?


Rick told them that if they didn't like his Ricktatorship they could just leave. In the middle of a cold, dark, night with little provisions or weapons.
I am not discounting Rick's grief at the death of Shane, but he was not the only one who lost some one. The group has lost Sophia, Dale, Shane, and Andrea. Their possessions are gone, they are sitting around a campfire without a clue what the morrow will bring. And they are just learning that every death brings a new zombie into the world. Not comforting.

The group wants Rick to be some "John Wayne" hero who always knows the right thing to do, and is never affected by anything he does. Instead, they've got a guy who does his best and makes mistakes and who has real emotions when he kills someone. Too bad, folks, John Wayne's dead.


Sure, they want Rick to be some "John Wayne" hero, they want someone who leads them who knows the right thing to do. Who wouldn't? Rick was their leader, they followed his lead, and they must have figured how they he was doing his best. They wanted Rick that night, not a guy having a meltdown.

#640

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 9:34 PM

The reason they had a fire in the middle of the night is because Rick had the group stop and set it up. If they had just done as they pleased earlier in the day, they wouldn't have that fire. Instead they would have driven into who-knows-what and might have ended up in a better location or in a worse one without any fuel or plan.

The only car that was ridiculously low on fuel was Rick's. Every one else can still get into the other cars and leave if it tickles their fancy since Rick did not confiscate any keys.

As is symptomatic in this group, they want to be saved without actually working towards it themselves. Rick cannot perform miracles and their expectation of it is childish.

ETA: Rick doesn't have the bag of guns (that's Andrea), nor does he have supplies squirreled away (that was Shane). He has nothing to offer or keep from these people that they do not have themselves. He is in the same hungry cold place as the rest of them.

Edited by Luckedout, Mar 31, 2012 @ 9:37 PM.


#641

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 9:46 PM

...[Rick] is in the same hungry cold place as the rest of them.

Actually, he is the warmer spot of the only man who's still sleeping with his wife, the only parent who can still hold his child and the only person with a captive audience to listen how he killed his rival.

*ETA: Not even Hershel is so lukcy (and he still has two of his children with him).

Edited by zomb, Mar 31, 2012 @ 9:52 PM.


#642

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 9:48 PM

As is symptomatic in this group, they want to be saved without actually working towards it themselves. Rick cannot perform miracles and their expectation of it is childish


They had worked pretty hard the night before to save themselves and others.

#643

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 10:17 PM

Sure, they want Rick to be some "John Wayne" hero, they want someone who leads them who knows the right thing to do. Who wouldn't? Rick was their leader, they followed his lead, and they must have figured how they he was doing his best. They wanted Rick that night, not a guy having a meltdown.


To paraprase Gaius Baltar, human beings have limits, tolerances beyond which they cannot go. Rick reached his.

People who are under a lot of stress break down. They may break down physically (heart attacks, susceptibility to infections, headaches, sleep problems like insomnia or nightmares, etc.) or they may break down emotionally, as Rick did. I like the show more for having people under stress behave realistically, rather than like indestructible action heroes.

The guy who had the meltdown WAS Rick - the person who made decisions when they wouldn't, and who killed Sophia so they wouldn't have to. I think they could have noticed how emotionally and physically exhausted he was - how close to the edge - and held off attacking him, disputing his leadership, and calling him dishonourable until the morning, when he (and they) had had a bit of rest and was less emotional. That would be showing common sense as well as compassion.

#644

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 10:36 PM

They had worked pretty hard the night before to save themselves and others.


IMO, they did a horrible job. While Rick kept quiet and stealthily moved among the herd, the group at the house drove around in circles and wasted ammo. They saw that it was a really large group of walkers, Daryl recognized that the house could be overrun.

While Daryl got on his loud motorcycle and actually managed to get away, the rest panicked and actually placed themselves in harm's way. If by any chance any of those vehicles had broken down in the middle of the field, what were they planning to do (T-Dog, Glenn, Maggie, Andrea)? If they were going to run away, then they should have just left.

Now Lori was worried about Carl, Carol stuck around Lori and Hershel was having a rather distraught moment as he was unwilling to give up his farm, so his own family stuck by him. Still, in the heat of the moment, a lot of mistakes were made.

However, I do concede that in that occasion they did work pretty hard (such as Andrea). It just was badly done.

Actually, he is the warmer spot of the only man who's still sleeping with his wife, the only parent who can still hold his child and the only person with a captive audience to listen how he killed his rival.


I do not think that Rick's "good fortune" has done him many favors. He has more responsibilities than the rest and a personal stake in getting adequate food and shelter. He is tired. The others (besides Lori) don't have that parental ache of a child saying he's cold or hungry and the impotent wretchedness of not being able to do much about it.

He is still just as lost as the rest. Only instead of just himself, he carries more weight on his shoulders.

#645

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 10:43 PM

People who are under a lot of stress break down. They may break down physically (heart attacks, susceptibility to infections, headaches, sleep problems like insomnia or nightmares, etc.) or they may break down emotionally, as Rick did. I like the show more for having people under stress behave realistically, rather than like indestructible action heroes.


Everyone around that fire was/has been under a tremendous load of stress. They broke down emotionally, as Rick did. The whole crew was melting down, for equally good reasons. Rick has known for a while about their being in pre-zombie mode, they just found out. Rick killing Shane (for you people) was a shock. They are very vulnerable right now. Maybe they should draw lots to see who gets to meltdown.

#646

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 10:55 PM

Maybe they should draw lots to see who gets to meltdown.


I don't think of a meltdown as a prize. I think of it as a natural reaction to overwhelming stress. The only reward for the person who "wins" is that he/she gets to embarrass himself in front of friends and family and people like Carol get to call him/her dishonourable and talk behind his/her back.

However, Rick is the only person who had to kill his best friend that day - so that day he wins on stress points. Hurray for Rick. I'm sure that was a prize he really wanted.

Edited by Lollia Pollina, Mar 31, 2012 @ 11:07 PM.


#647

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 11:41 PM

I do not think that Rick's "good fortune" has done him many favors.

I'm not saying that is has, but if I'm supposed to see Rick as burdened as the rest of them, then I have to strongly disagree: in a world were Glenn lost Andrea, T-Dog lost Dale, Carol lost Sophia, Daryl lost Merle and the Hershels half of everyone they've ever met, Rick still has his whole family with him so I can't see him as cold and hungry as the rest of them, no matter how hard I'd try.

IMO, they did a horrible job.

Yet the fact remains they defended their lives all by themselves: Rick got rescued by them, not the other way around. So, if the argument persists the Atlanta group 'wanted to be saved without actually working towards it' then I must strongly disagree with this also.

Edited by zomb, Mar 31, 2012 @ 11:44 PM.


#648

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Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 12:04 AM

Yet, Rick is literally as cold and hungry as them. I'm not speaking metaphorically. He is not lording over them, keeping supplies to himself, only to dish them out to those he favors. The others can leave and they'll be in exactly the same situation they are in now, except that there will be less people.

Jimmy, not his group, went to his aid. They did not rescue him as he found Hershel by himself and drove to the highway by himself. And I did concede that they worked this one time to help themselves, however waiting outside Atlanta, the CDC, the abandoned Fort Benning trip and then Hershel are all signs that this group is looking for someone to fix things. Instead of fortifying a location and making a better situation for themselves, they have stumbled from one person to the next. Instead of learning several skills such as Glenn's scavenging and Hershel's medical knowledge, they waste the day away.

When Carol heard that noise in the woods, what did she do to save herself? Scream at Rick to do something instead of picking up anything to be used as a weapon and keeping herself quiet as to not attract anymore attention. What did T-Dog or Lori do to save Andrea? Why did the group separate so easily and only by coincidence end up together once more? There's so much that they can do to make things better, yet they don't do it unless told to or it's do-or-die last minute actions.

#649

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Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 12:05 AM

Well, in Rick's defense, he narrowly escaped being murdered by his best friend just the night before, and had to kill him instead, which clearly took a piece out of him. When he told his wife about it, needing (and deserving IMO) her understanding and support, she rejected him and is looking at him like she doesn't know him. I'm not saying he didn't sound crazy or that the others don't have a right to be upset with him, because the Jenner secret is a big deal, and killing one of their own is concerning. But I also agree that the gang has looked to Rick for leadership, he's done his best, and their anger with him is somewhat excessive. I think some of them are projecting their terror and despair over the farm being overrun onto Rick, which isn't his fault.

#650

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Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 8:49 AM

Yet, Rick is literally as cold and hungry as them. I'm not speaking metaphorically. He is not lording over them, keeping supplies to himself, only to dish them out to those he favors.

I'm confused: Didn't we see everybody stop because Rick's car ran out of fuel, T-Dog watching over so Rick's family could gather around the fire and everyone but Rick keeping that fire alive? Because I swear those weren't Rick and Lori, those were Maggie and Daryl putting branches on it. The way I see it, its the whole group who's doing him the favor and Rick should know better than to lord them out.

#651

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Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 10:54 AM

Rick has been under a lot of pressure. Holding in Jenner's secret, first failing and later killing Sophia, watching Dale die, knowing Shane was turning on him and having to kill him then watching Carl kill him a second time, that's a lot for a man to go through. I think anybody under that kind of stress is entitled to a little meltdown, especially when the group he has been doing all this for seems to be trying to turn on him.

But my question is this. If Rick was having a hard time before, when all the decisions were for the group to make and they were part of a democracy (even if most of them declined to take part) why is he so willing to take the entirety of the burden on? He wants to protect Lori and Carl. The rest of the people, in his eyes, might be ingrates. Why does he still want to be in charge? They are blaming him for everything, most of which is not his fault. If he becomes the end all be all, decision making Ricktator, ALL the pressure will be on him even more so than it is now, and then everyone will be right to blame him for everything that goes wrong.

#652

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Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 10:54 AM

I'm confused: Didn't we see everybody stop because Rick's car ran out of fuel, T-Dog watching over so Rick's family could gather around the fire and everyone but Rick keeping that fire alive? Because I swear those weren't Rick and Lori, those were Maggie and Daryl putting branches on it. The way I see it, its the whole group who's doing him the favor and Rick should know better than to lord them out.


The group is making a fire to keep everyone warm, not just Rick's family. I fail to see how doing something that benefits everyone is doing a favour for Rick.

#653

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Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 11:20 AM

All right, everyone, agree to disagree about Rick's stress/meltdown and move on. People are getting snitty with each other and repeating their points.

#654

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Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 3:23 AM

Rick told them that if they didn't like his Ricktatorship they could just leave. In the middle of a cold, dark, night with little provisions or weapons.


He said this, though, after a few of them talked about wanting to go out alone in the middle of a cold, dark night with little provisions. He simply told them that if they wanted to do that, then so be it, but if they wanted to stay, it would no longer be a democracy. My point is that he wasn't threatening to send them out- he simply said they could if they really wanted to. I'm not talking about Rick's mental state here, I'm talking about everyone else's, and I don't think this particular point has been made yet. I'll take the rest of my comment to Rick's thread.

Edited by lisasquared, Apr 2, 2012 @ 3:32 AM.


#655

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Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 7:57 AM

One thought I had, after the shot of the nearly obliterated message to Sophia on one of the cars, was that part of the point of the episode was to show us how much everyone has changed.

No one suggested leaving a note for Andrea; they have lal seen too much, done too much, and they have far less hope than they did just a few weeks previously.

The fireside scene, the decisison not go back for Andrea, all of it is about how much they have all changed.

Glenn's love declaration, followed by how he deals with crying Maggie? Same thing.

#656

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Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 10:21 AM

Jimmy went to the barn in the RV because Daryl said that maybe Shane or Rick set the fire to draw the herd away from the house. Rick used the RV to get out of the barn with Stupid!Carl and then tried to get Jimmy but it was too late for him. Rick and Carl then got to the house, on foot and found Hershel and made Hershel leave, but only after trying to figure out where everyone else was.

I don't see Rick as a particularly unsympathetic or sympathetic character here. He probably should have started his speech with Shane took me into the woods to kill me, vs. I killed my best friend, but other than that, he really has nothing to explain.

Daryl already told the group that he thought that Shane killed Randall "just like he wanted to do" So, the group can't be too surprised to find out that Shane was lying when he ran back pretending that Randall was off getting the Philly pirates together to rape and kill. All they need is the time to actually process, but this is a pretty dumb group, so I don't hold out a lot of hope on that one.

Carol is an idiot. She wants someone to take care of her, but doesn't want to be a burden, but is also clearly bothered that Daryl won't step up and let her the be the "first lady" of the group. She has serious issues.

Daryl is cool with everything because he is the only one who has figured out that Rick is not the problem here. He is calm enough to process what Shane did, what Randall did, and what Rick did. He did look a bit preturbed at the "we are all carriers" news, but kind of in a "figures" sort of way.

Hershel alluded to knowing about other "safe" places - I wonder if he is going to lead them to the prison by floating it as a possible safe place.

I might have missed it, but did someone have Shane's car? It was the one full of guns and bullets. Did they leave it behind? Or did Shane die with the keys in his dirty cargo pants?

Edited by dc_liz, Apr 2, 2012 @ 10:23 AM.


#657

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Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 11:36 AM

I might have missed it, but did someone have Shane's car?

I could be wrong, but I thought Glenn and Maggie were driving Shane's car when they stopped on the bridge. Not sure whether they brought all the vehicles on from the highway after they rendez-voused, or whether they consolidated to save gas.

#658

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Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 1:03 PM

I don't see Rick as a particularly unsympathetic or sympathetic character here. He probably should have started his speech with Shane took me into the woods to kill me, vs. I killed my best friend, but other than that, he really has nothing to explain.


I would pretty much agree with this. I never really took any issue with what Rick did, I just think if he wants a loyal following he should probably get better at speeches. Other than that, and considering all the pressure Rick is under I think we can cut him some slack.


Daryl already told the group that he thought that Shane killed Randall "just like he wanted to do" So, the group can't be too surprised to find out that Shane was lying when he ran back pretending that Randall was off getting the Philly pirates together to rape and kill. All they need is the time to actually process, but this is a pretty dumb group, so I don't hold out a lot of hope on that one.


Shane's killing Randall was never really going to be an issue anyway. With the exception of Dale, everyone in the group either wanted Randall dead or didn't care one way or the other. So Shane sneaking him out of the barn to kill him, while an odd way of doing it, would be no big deal. Shane using that as a pretense to kill Rick, however, IS a big deal and is probably what he should have focused the talk on.


Carol is an idiot. She wants someone to take care of her, but doesn't want to be a burden, but is also clearly bothered that Daryl won't step up and let her the be the "first lady" of the group. She has serious issues.


True, but she's lost more than anyone else in the group, and while that doesn't excuse all of her actions I think having your husband (abusive asshole or not) killed and then a short time later seeing your daughter as a walker and watching her get her brains blown out is going to have an effect. Carol is the only one who can help her get to a better place though, even Daryl can't make her change. It's up to Carol to decide who she is without her family and what she wants to. If she's going to let Rick or Daryl make all the decisions for her that's fine too, but then she really has no right to complain about what they decide.


Daryl is cool with everything because he is the only one who has figured out that Rick is not the problem here. He is calm enough to process what Shane did, what Randall did, and what Rick did. He did look a bit preturbed at the "we are all carriers" news, but kind of in a "figures" sort of way.


Yeah, I imagine Daryl wouldn't be too bothered by anything but "we're all infected" and even that is probably a matter of "I didn't think we could get any more screwed but I guess I was wrong". It's not going to stop him from being as badass as possible until he dies. And if that happens, I imagine he will have already asked Rick or Andrea or someone to be the one to put him down.


Hershel alluded to knowing about other "safe" places - I wonder if he is going to lead them to the prison by floating it as a possible safe place.



Ironically, if Rick had let the group drive a little further they would have found the prison and would not be so worried about camping out in the woods with walkers around.


I might have missed it, but did someone have Shane's car? It was the one full of guns and bullets. Did they leave it behind? Or did Shane die with the keys in his dirty cargo pants?



Unless they found another lime green product placement, sorry, I mean Shane's car, I'm pretty sure Glen and Maggie were driving it. It's amazing, by the way, how Rick and T-Dog's trucks, and Daryl's bike, are all dusty and dirty, yet Shane's always seems to be clean.

#659

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Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 2:38 PM

...but is is also clearly bothered that Daryl won't step up and let her the be the "first lady" of the group. She has serious issues.

I couldn't disagree more with your opinion (especially after watching some real first lady types with real issues in the Game of Thrones premiere).

At best, Carol is a grieving mother and widow trying to spare Daryl of more heartache after he lost his brother, Sophia and Dale IMO.

Edited by agora, Apr 2, 2012 @ 2:39 PM.


#660

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Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 3:24 PM

True, but she's lost more than anyone else in the group, and while that doesn't excuse all of her actions I think having your husband (abusive asshole or not) killed and then a short time later seeing your daughter as a walker and watching her get her brains blown out is going to have an effect.

I disagree very much here. She's lost no more than anybody who is not a member of the Grimes. Glenn has lost his parents and every one of his friends even if he didn't see them die in front of him. Andrea's parents in Florida are as good as dead (especially now with the knowledge that walkeritis becomes active upon death: you have an entire subpopulation of timebombs there), she had to put a bullet in her own sister's head, and that's not even touching upon all of her colleagues, friends, and anyone else she might of cared about from her old life. Beth and Maggie lost two family friends, their mother and brother and Beth lost her boyfriend. But you don't see anybody else calling Rick a dishonorable man and trying to convince their protector to take the helm.

Unless they found another lime green product placement, sorry, I mean Shane's car, I'm pretty sure Glen and Maggie were driving it. It's amazing, by the way, how Rick and T-Dog's trucks, and Daryl's bike, are all dusty and dirty, yet Shane's always seems to be clean.

Now, to be completely fair, the product placement-mobile was appropriately bloodstained and battered after the ruckus at the farm.

At best, Carol is a grieving mother and widow...

Bumped to Carol thread.