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Scandal: All Seasons Discussion


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#751

agentAA08

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Posted May 5, 2012 @ 10:04 PM

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Amanda was just the classic bait-and-switch -- use her to bait Olivia and Fitz and bring them both out and down. Amanda, may or may not have had some type of sexual relation with Fitz, oral or more -- I personally don't think she was involved with him, period -- and we know that whatever "proof" she had of their tryst turned out to be nothing at all, now that we know that baby isn't his. But Amanda bailed and they had to get rid of her in case she messed up the plan, so I'm thinking the conspirators are going to have to go for plan B, whatever (or whoever) that may be.

I don't think Cyrus, Mellie, or the VP have anything to do with Amanda dying. It's way too easy, and all of those people, well maybe minus the VP, have something to lose. Cyrus and Mellie don't want Fitz to resign, so why send the blackmail vid of Nixon? The VP seems like the type who would want everything to be neat and nice and perfect on her record while in office, but while I can't imagine her even getting near someone willing to get their hands dirty, it seems too soon to rule her out completely. (Though I still think it's not her either).

Completely and totally speculating, but I also think whoever this person is pulling the strings is probably the one who contacted Gideon, fed him those photos of Amanda and the prez, and "coincidentally" planted it in his head that Amanda and Fitz were sleeping together. (He figured that out way too quickly for my taste, especially for a young reporter, who was keen on listening to Olivia and wait for her ok on the case just an episode earlier). Makes me wonder if he'll be the one to figure out that Olivia and Fitz have a thing too -- through Quinn -- somehow...

My money is on Billy, even though I really like him and kinda want him to a viable suitor for Olivia, if only to drive Fitz crazy.

I don't want it to be Billy for this exact same reason. But based on the few interactions Olivia and Billy have had, I get the feeling she doesn't trust him herself, which means we shouldn't trust him either.

Which is why I didn't understand Abby encouraging him to get engaged, only to criticize him for his (past) sexual behavior in the next episode.

Abby clearly has feelings for Stephen and seems to be up in arms about the whole situation. I wouldn't go so far to say she encouraged him to get engaged. Sure, she agreed to cover for him when he had to go meet his now-fiancee for the proposal, but that gesture rang hollow to me, especially when in their previous scene together she was choking on her emotions when Huck whipped out that box of engagement rings. I think she actually really cares about him, which is why the cheating and the prostitutes bothers her so much, and why she's so mean to him when evidence of his sexcapades come out. It's like in elementary school, when the 9 year old boy picks on the girl he actually really likes -- except, reverse with Abby, as the boy and Stephen as the girl.

Also, who's to say Abby and Stephen have never hooked up? Part of me thinks she acts the way she does because she may have been one of those girls who got sexy time with him, but then ended up developing feelings for him afterwards.

But having sex with consenting adult women doesn't make Stephen a bad person.

Maybe not a bad person, but cheating on his girlfriend doesn't make him a good person either, IMO anyway. I'm assuming this girl he's now engaged to is the one he was seeing while he was hooking up with the randoms. If so, nasty.

Edited by agentAA08, May 5, 2012 @ 10:14 PM.

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#752

Renee in CA

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Posted May 5, 2012 @ 11:55 PM

The whole VP thing was a bit silly, she is on a very short leash and the Prez can cut her down to nothing with not much effort. Of course she has to vote the way he tells her to -- it's a requirement of the job.

Will be interesting to see a next seaon (I hope there is one, because I love having another strong female character on network TV.
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#753

Joimiaroxeu

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 8:54 AM

The whole VP thing was a bit silly, she is on a very short leash and the Prez can cut her down to nothing with not much effort.

The political knife can probably cut both ways. If she's got tea party backing then she can muster enough vocal support to turn a lot of negativity toward Fitz. Maybe not enough to cut him down to nothing but enough to give him a lot of trouble. Look at the situation in the House of Representatives. The Speaker of the House, second in the line of presidential succession, is basically under the control of the tea party members. Fitz's VP likely still has some clout, it just depends on how and when she would want to wield it. Right now, currying Fitz's favor seems like the safer bet for her.

Also, who's to say Abby and Stephen have never hooked up? Part of me thinks she acts the way she does because she may have been one of those girls who got sexy time with him, but then ended up developing feelings for him afterwards.

Didn't he give her a dog? If they had some sexy time and then he gave her a living thing that some might consider to be a child-substitute, it's not hard to understand that she'd develop feelings afterwards. That could be considered a manipulative thing for the president to have done if she really was nothing to him. Maybe a framed and signed photograph of himself or a cupcake basket would have been less meaningful.
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#754

ribboninthesky1

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 10:01 AM

I don't recall anything about Stephen giving Abby a dog? Are you referring to Amanda and Fitz? I am thoroughly amused by "cupcake basket."

Also, who's to say Abby and Stephen have never hooked up? Part of me thinks she acts the way she does because she may have been one of those girls who got sexy time with him, but then ended up developing feelings for him afterwards.

I've not gotten that impression at all. Seems more like an unrequited crush than anything. Plus, Abby strikes me as being angry and disillusioned with men in general, so I have a hard time believing she hooked up with Stephen. Not to mention she doesn't exactly come across as sexually liberated, so I can't see a one night stand sort of thing, either. I don't think the show has mentioned how long Olivia's had her firm, correct? Now I'm wondering how long Abby has known Stephen, since it seemed that perhaps she idealized him, and only recently discovered some of his sexual escapades.

Maybe not a bad person, but cheating on his girlfriend doesn't make him a good person either, IMO anyway. I'm assuming this girl he's now engaged to is the one he was seeing while he was hooking up with the randoms. If so, nasty.

You got me there. I had not made that assumption, but it makes sense. And yes, it doesn't make Stephen look good at all.
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#755

whiteshirtrocks

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 10:25 AM

This show is such complete and utter fluff. I wonder why I can't stop watching it...yet, I can't. I am glad that I have hung in there through the complete and utter nonsense to see Huck's scene. This show isn't even close to Emmy-worthy, but Huck's scene with his mentor (really both scenes) was top notch.

The president is such a skeevy person it's impossible to root for him. I really hope things end up very badly for him. It's really kinda impossible to root for any of these people. I love the guy that was on the lying show though, so I guess this will stay on my dvr list...

Edited by whiteshirtrocks, May 6, 2012 @ 1:35 PM.

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#756

getawayjordan

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 1:14 PM

I don't think Cyrus, Mellie, or the VP have anything to do with Amanda dying. It's way too easy, and all of those people, well maybe minus the VP, have something to lose. Cyrus and Mellie don't want Fitz to resign, so why send the blackmail vid of Nixon? The VP seems like the type who would want everything to be neat and nice and perfect on her record while in office, but while I can't imagine her even getting near someone willing to get their hands dirty, it seems too soon to rule her out completely. (Though I still think it's not her either).


Why not the Veep? Doesn't she have motive and opportunity in Amanda-gate? She has motive to get rid of Amanda and pin the blame on Fitz. If she can get him out of the way without getting her hands dirty, she can become president without having to cosign any more bills she doesn't believe in (like the Dream Act). The Veep also has opportunity. She has the same in the same access to black ops that Fitz has. And she has been operating behind the scenes until just recently, so who knows what she has been up to?

Seems more like an unrequited crush than anything. Plus, Abby strikes me as being angry and disillusioned with men in general, so I have a hard time believing she hooked up with Stephen.


Abby clearly has a thing for Stephen, but IMO she hates herself for being attracted to such a man-whore, so she lashes out at him every chance she gets. Plus, she probably still has unresolved issues from the abusive relationship she was in.

Edited by getawayjordan, May 6, 2012 @ 3:41 PM.

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#757

Joimiaroxeu

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 2:09 PM

I don't recall anything about Stephen giving Abby a dog? Are you referring to Amanda and Fitz?

Yeah, I got my "A" names mixed up. I did mean Amanda and Fitz. Nevermind, except the sentiment about Amanda and Fitz is the same. Unless the girl was utterly delusional, he played her in a manner unbecoming someone of his stature who also happens to be married.

Abby clearly has a thing for Stephen, but IMO she hates herself for being attracted to such a man-whore, so she lashes out at him every chance she gets. Plus, she probably still has unresolved issues from the abusive relationship she was in.

I doubt that they've hooked up but she does have quite the crush for some reason. However, I think it's out of line for her to be passing open judgment on the way he chooses to live his life. She's not his fianceé and for all she knows, the fianceé is aware of Stephen's doggish ways and is fine with it. Maybe they have an open relationship. Maybe the fianceé's saving herself for marriage and this is how Stephen's dealing with that (which isn't admirable, but again, we don't know that they don't have an "understanding" until he actually is a husband).

Abby might very well be reacting because of her personal abuse issues and she needs to find a productive way to handle that instead of focusing on Stephen's sex life. And perhaps Stephen should do a better job of keeping his sex life out of the office. (Unless he and Olivia want to hookup--after his engagement falls apart, of course. I'd be all for that.)

Edited by Joimiaroxeu, May 6, 2012 @ 2:11 PM.

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#758

Irlandesa

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 2:52 PM

I did mean Amanda and Fitz. Nevermind, except the sentiment about Amanda and Fitz is the same. Unless the girl was utterly delusional, he played her in a manner unbecoming someone of his stature who also happens to be married.


Speaking of the dog Fitz allegedly gave Amanda, does anyone besides me wonder where it is? Did they say? Is it getting fed? Walked? Did Amanda bring it over to Olivia's?

I don't know if its absence is meant to put its existence in doubt or if it's an inconvenient detail from the pilot that I shouldn't obsess over?
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#759

ribboninthesky1

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 2:59 PM

Unless the girl was utterly delusional, he played her in a manner unbecoming someone of his stature who also happens to be married.


I'm not sure we'll get any additional insight into the Amanda/Fitz relationship by the end of episode 7. I still think they had an affair, only because Fitz has never explicitly denied it to anyone (on screen, anyway). It's one of those things I'm taking at face value. BUT, given that we know Amanda lied about the paternity of her baby, for me, it calls into question pretty much everything else she said, save "Sweet baby." The other reason I am beginning to doubt that Fitz was so effusive towards Amanda is that we've only seen him like that with or about Olivia. Perhaps because we've not gotten any flashbacks between him and Mellie, but we've yet to see him particularly expressive with Mellie, wife and mother of his children. I struggle to believe that he said things like, "I love you and will take care of you" to Amanda. Anything is possible, though.
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#760

fractal

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 3:06 PM

And unlike the other associates, he has a clear cut purpose at OP&A. Stephen, Abby, Quinn, and Harrison basically run around and ask people questions.


Weebles. Minions. Puppies. After 5 weeks, they should not be this insignificant. Everyone on the show works and makes sense except for most of the associates. At the top of the dumb list sits Quinn. The POTUS moves around on that list. Shit, he had me at "Hi." How does TG do that?

My love for Huck and Cyrus remains. Neither is 100% good or bad but they are human and real and weird. Weird is good.

Someone upthread mentioned that the premise of this show was great, but the execution has been lacking. I have to agree. Not sure if it was the same person who mentioned that we should have gotten more scenes with Olivia showing her competence and smarts before she got derailed with the Amanda Tanner thing. I agree with that as well.

This is what frustrates me with each episode. [I see] the exact same limitations (and potential) but for some reason no one connected to show caught them. I really and truly am hoping for a second season where they fix these issues. They appear to be simple fixes and I certainly hope a longer season will allow them to show us rather than tell us what makes Pope and Associates so amazing. They didn't fuck up anyone in the White House or outside her office. But, for some reason Pope AND associates are annoying or not likable or not interesting. It does not make sense because everyone else is so watchable. Even some of the characters in the case of the week are more interesting and likable than the POPE AND associates. But, Olivia with others is very interesting. She's great in the White House, with her new drinking buddy and sometimes with Stephen. Writers tend to write their favorite characters better. So, I can't fully tell now if it is the writing or the acting. But, all of this, can be fixed. Otherwise it will become work to watch this as a viewer and I don't like to do the work. So much potential. The tiny drop from last week in the ratings does not surprise me. [snip] Ep. 4 was critical and they blew it. At this point in time they will not pull in any newer viewers. Hopefully, they can get some to return if they walked away. Ep. 4 had a lot of key information vital to moving ahead story but it was a headachy mess. [snip] I understand now. I saw the mess Off the Map became and it did not even start out as strong as Scandal. Never watched Grey's. Private Practice was good. Just not really my type of show but every ep I saw was very, very good. .

Edited by TWoP Howard, May 8, 2012 @ 9:49 PM.
Boards on boards

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#761

agentAA08

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 3:34 PM

Why not the Veep? Doesn't she have motive and opportunity in Amanda-gate? She has motive to get rid Amanda and pin the blame on Fitz. If she can get him out of the way without getting her hands dirty, she can become president without having to cosign any more bills she doesn't believe in (like the Dream Act). The Veep also has opportunity. She has the same in the same access to black ops that Fitz has. And she has been operating behind the scenes until just recently, so who knows what she has been up to?

Logic makes it the VP for all the reasons you listed. But that's just so...obvious, you know? For all of Shonda's "everyone is not what they seems" teasers, I'd be disappointed if it were the VP because she's such a likely opponent. I'd like to think with all this shows promised and delivered twists and turns that there would be someone with just as much to gain as her without it actually being her. Which I suppose is where Billy would come in. As much as I'd like it to not be Billy, just because I do like the character, I'd actually applaud Shonda for going that route, instead of the obvious person here. I've never watched a Shonda show in full, but I want to think she is capable of impressing me.

The president is such a skeevy person it's impossible to root for him.

He's such a tool, which is why I roll my eyes at him and Olivia and their forbidden love. As individuals, I can tolerate them fine, but as a couple, other than the chemistry I can't see any reason why I'd ship them. I mean, I'm not going to complain if they get it on next week, because hey, I'm human and I like a hot love scene just as much as anybody else, but it's hard for me to root for a spineless cheater and a woman who loses all common sense around a man for reasons I still haven't figured out yet.
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#762

insanityproject

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 6:13 PM

Oh, this show.

So after 5 weeks, the only characters that truly pop are Olivia, POTUS, Cyrus and Huck. I like the rest of the cast/characters but the fact that they all could be cut and replaced without any detriment to the show is troubling. Right now, there is room for only one traditional investigator (while Huck has housed 2 roles for himself - geek boy & muscle) but we have 3 (4 if you count Quinn). Stephen's special skill cannot be prostitute/honey trap, Shonda. If OP&A had several cases going each week (as happens on Greys or PP) than it makes sense to have such a huge team. But if Olivia & Huck can handle 90% of the work between them than what's the point of the others? Super-hearing, super-sluttiness and super-self-righteousness? I think Quinn's purpose is just company mascot.

The case of this week was great -- best so far. I like that the culprit was the overworked office drone. It was made it all the sadder.

Onto the good. They killed Amanda! Love that. Love that it's a mystery with quite a few suspects: Quinn(who may be a mole), VP or Billy or someone on her team, Cyrus, FLOTUS, POTUS, and perhaps someone else? LOVE both scenes with Liv/POTUS. Do they warrant a squish name yet? OFitx? Fivia? Grape? Grope (heh)? He's so unworthy of her but I am just plain stupid in front of that chemistry. Still I want her to get him out of her system and hook up with that nice boy David.
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#763

Msg2Mi

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 7:18 PM

After five weeks I am really invested in this show but they seriously need to tighten up on the characterizaton of Olivia, she iso smart but she just believed that the baby was hs and told Stephen "It's his" no pregnancy test not even 5 of them can determine paternity, they would have to do something invasive to get fetal blood and Olivia should know that Once she heard the sweet baby comment she lost all confidence in everything he says. I dont believe the original tape/cd was of the president and Amanda I believe it was him and Liv. I think whatever "vast right wing conspiracy is doing this heard Fitz call Liv sweet baby thats how Amanda knew about it .. Also I think its ridiculous that one week POTUS is telling Liv not to talk under the camera of the oval seal in his office but somehow they have "our spot" on the grounds and nobody knows or watches the Pres 24/7. I think there are lots of red herrings being thown out for the who but I think we will be surprised I am trying to figure out why Liv wanted Quinn on the team I have yet to see her gift other that being perceived as a "sweetie pie" I really love the rest of the crew at OPA
I think it will definitely be Quinn who is getting some lovin next week and the rest of us shippers on Liv and Fitz will get their back story. Although after that Hi, which has to be one of the sexiest smoldering greetings in TV in 2012 I am rootings for those panties hitting the floor in the promo to be Liv's and not Quinns
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#764

ribboninthesky1

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 7:58 PM

insanityproject, I am DEAD at your whole post. Stephen as a honey trap? Made my evening.
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#765

JazzBand

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 11:35 AM

I agree. Msg, Nice post.

Edited by JazzBand, May 9, 2012 @ 3:35 AM.
Argumentative, opinion as fact, manners

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#766

Joimiaroxeu

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 12:20 PM

We know he loves her, we know that Olivia is the love of his life,

We know that he thinks he loves her. We know that he says Olivia is the love of his life. He could just be having a lust-driven mid-life crisis.

We also know that he lied to Olivia's face about Amanda after asking her to clean up the mess, whatever it was. There must have been something there for him to have gotten so panicked about it that he begged Olivia to handle it.

we know that his heart is totally taken by her but that's not proof of cheating. Him being in love with Olivia is not cheating.

I guess it depends on whether or not Fitz is a New Testament kind of guy. Per Matthew 5:27-30 (New International Version): “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Yeah, that's the kind of stuff that helped make Carter a one-term president but there are plenty of religious fundamentalists who still think that way and are perfectly willing to judge others on those terms. Fitz was canny enough to pull a tea party member as his VP. You'd think he'd know better than to try to re-live the Kennedy, Carter, and Clinton mistakes with regard to the intersection of personal and public morality.

I think Fitz is a tool because he keeps putting Olivia in compromising positions. The clinch in the Oval Office right in front of an open window. The longing looks on the dance floor. The attempted assignation on the WH back lawn. Showing up at her apartment unnannounced without his official entourage like he's sneaking around. What if a reporter followed him or someone in Olivia's building sees him? He's the flippin' leader of the free world. When is he going to stop acting like a horny teenaged boy and at least respect Olivia's dignity? [snip]

Edited by TWoP Howard, May 8, 2012 @ 9:46 PM.
Save the sarcasm for the show, please

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#767

blissfullylost

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 12:41 PM

Well, mileage does vary because I’ve started to find Pope & Associates endearing. I could do without the blatant man-whoring from Stephen but I think he has a soothing presence that would make him a good friend to lean on in a crisis. Abby’s crazily judgmental but she makes me laugh & I feel like she’s still trying to shrug off her bitter baggage. There’s Huck who is brilliant, broken, and utterly loyal and my stylishly smooth Harrison. I could probably do without Quinn who seems to me to be inauthentic/hiding a nuke/or ridiculously incompetent. I still think I could grow to like her though if she starts proving to be relevant. I hope to spend a real season of tv hours getting to know them.

I also empathize with Olivia. She did all the right things to become a superstar at her career but now everything’s starting to come apart at the seams because of a doomed love affair that she tried to put behind her. I’m convinced that she has a good heart and has helped tons of people and must be extraordinarily competent. I just feel like I’m seeing a perfectionist dealing with a seemingly unfixable mistake which colors everything. It makes sense to me that she’s abrupt and making impulsive decisions at the lowest point in her life. She keeps moving though and imperfectly trying to be The Olivia Pope that everyone expects. She’s not curled up at home eating Chunky Monkey; she’s managing to get major things accomplished. I absolutely think Olivia on her worst day is still so very worth knowing.
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#768

agentAA08

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 2:07 PM

But I only see that with Olivia and not Amanda. Does anyone of us have any proof that he even cheated with Olivia?

[snip] The very first episode when Olivia goes to the WH all heart broken. She says, "Sweet baby?" He says, "You left me." She replies, "Because you were married! Because I wanted you to be a better man, the man I campaigned for..." In the 4th episode, when Cyrus called the White House Internal Affairs to investigate Olivia they found out she'd had an affair with someone while on the campaign. Spoiler free it's obvious they hooked up while on the campaign together -- while he was married. Sleeping with one woman while married to another? Yeah, that would make him a cheater.

So in your eyes what makes him sleezy or spineless

I never called him sleezy, but I did call him a tool. And I stand by that. He's not a tool because he loves Olivia. He's a tool and he's spineless because he's not intelligent enough to realize all eyes are on him and people know about him and Olivia, whether or not he recognizes that. (That or he just doesn't care, even at Olivia's expense). He's too busy trying to get face-to-face time with her in their spot or in her apartment without even thinking his actions through. The fact that he wants to see her might seem all romantic and sweet, but in light of the mess he's in, it's not smart. His own freaking wife knows about him and Olivia (if that isn't leverage and an indication of how badly he kept this Olivia thing secret, I don't know what is). The only thing we've seen him do with all his power as President is get the VP to support the Dream Act, and only by vaguely threatening to not support her when she makes her bid for the presidency. Tony Goldwyn is doing a good job with the character, but I find the character himself, amongst other things, to be pretty weak.

And if you ask me, Amanda was a ruse. The only reason Amanda-gate even happened is because someone knows about Olivia and Fitz. (Unspoiled just speculating).

Really? What other reason would you have to ship them if they didn't have chemisty? I thought the only reason any couple is shipped is because they have amazing chemistry. That's what makes them worth rooting for unless there's something else they need to have or not have that would help you root for them.

No, I have to actually think they'd have make a good, sensible couple. I've seen couples whose actors have great chemistry together, but their characters were wildly inappropriate for each other (any soap opera is a testament to this) and I totally didn't ship them on principle alone. For me, chemistry is not the end all be all.

On a completely different note, I want to know how the Big Bad knew Amanda was staying in Olivia's apartment. Unless Amanda told them herself or someone was following Olivia (as Huck did mention someone was watching her apartment in the black car below), the only other people who knew were the associates (ie Quinn, who was strangely missing or late a lot of the last episode) and Amanda's parents. If someone is following Olivia, they might also find out about the POTUS paying her a visit. (Oh snap!)

Edited by TWoP Howard, May 8, 2012 @ 9:42 PM.
"Um" is dismissive

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#769

ribboninthesky1

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 7:55 PM

I think Fitz is a tool because he keeps putting Olivia in compromising positions. The clinch in the Oval Office right in front of an open window. The longing looks on the dance floor. The attempted assignation on the WH back lawn. Showing up at her apartment unnannounced without his official entourage like he's sneaking around.

Other than showing up at her apartment unannounced, I don't perceive Fitz as putting Olivia in a compromising position. I don't even think it's all that suspicious since she used to work for him (and clearly handles ad-hoc cases on his behalf, as requested). Risky, perhaps, but not that suspicious. She put HERSELF in an awkward position regarding the Amanda Tanner scandal twice - once, by agreeing to handle when she knowingly had a conflict of interest to begin with (I still maintain that the affair itself was irrelevant to Olivia until she perceived that she and Amanda were the same in Fitz' mind), and twice, by later taking Amanda on as a client. She had no problem telling him she doesn't work for him anymore, more than once, so she wasn't forced to take it on. As for the formal event, again, Olivia wasn't forced to be there. Actually, it was Mellie who insistently asked her to be there AND to dance with Fitz.

I do think that Fitz has been too lovestruck at times for my taste (his "I'm not spending anymore time away from you" line on the dance floor being way over the top). But Olivia is an adult who, by her own admission, has had her judgment clouded by her feelings for Fitz. They've both been swept away by emotion for most of the show thus far. And Olivia left her dignity at the door when she felt retaliation and assuaging guilt was more important than staying the hell away from the White House and the Amanda Tanner case (I'm certain that Amanda Tanner wasn't the first person she's brought to tears in her career). Not that I mind it - her best scenes are with the White House cast.
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#770

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 8:37 PM

Fitz = tool
Fitz = douche
Fitz = hot sexy

Hot sexy > douche
IMO

Edited by fractal, May 7, 2012 @ 8:37 PM.

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#771

insanityproject

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 11:00 PM

I agree with agent about sometimes wanting couples together even there isn't chemistry if the characters make sense together. Those couples though tend to become like wallpaper after a time -- sort of like Rufus & Lily on Gossip Girl. But what makes for great tv is when the reverse is true -- great chemistry but doomed circumstances. Fitz&Liv are delicious because the actors have this scorching chemistry while their characters are forever star-crossed.
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#772

blissfullylost

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 1:01 AM

We know that he thinks he loves her. We know that he says Olivia is the love of his life. He could just be having a lust-driven mid-life crisis.

If Fitz believes he’s in love with Olivia then I believe he’s in love with Olivia. I think when a bright line is drawn between a person thinking s/he's in love with someone and that person being in love with someone that it's usually done by unreliable narration--it's the rewriting of history by the participants in the aftermath or by outside parties who are in no true position to judge. I may feel Fitz is being foolish or that his actions belie my definition of love, or even that his opinion may ultimately change but it doesn’t negate the power of its truth for him. If Fitz doesn’t love Olivia then I would find their interactions sordid rather than tragic. I’m hopeful that this week’s episode will provide insight into their relationship and that it helps in humanizing Fitz.

Those couples though tend to become like wallpaper after a time -- sort of like Rufus & Lily on Gossip Girl. But what makes for great tv is when the reverse is true -- great chemistry but doomed circumstances. Fitz&Liv are delicious because the actors have this scorching chemistry while their characters are forever star-crossed.

I'm so there with you!
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#773

JazzBand

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 1:09 AM

Excellent point. I think your post was very interesting.

Edited by JazzBand, May 9, 2012 @ 3:31 AM.
Dismissive, opinion as fact

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#774

memememe76

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 1:18 AM

Count me in as a non-fan of Fitz. I also love the nickname, "Presidouche." I have to actually respect the characters before I can ship them with anyone. And if the affair never happened between Presidouche and Amanda, then that may be the fastest woobification I have ever seen.
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#775

agentAA08

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 2:32 AM

Proof of a sexual relationship has never been the result of words or statements made by anyone.

Certainly. And you are correct that there hasn't been any physical proof of a sexual relationship between Olivia and Fitz. But to be honest, I'm not sure what proof of sex is supposed to indicate in this situation. With respect, what difference does it make? A sexual relationship is implied, quite heavily if I might add. (And unless the upcoming promos are an enormous tease, there will be proof come Thursday night.)

From a purely emotional aspect, Fitz has cheated on his wife by seeking comfort in Olivia when he couldn't sleep, telling her he loves her when his wife is standing 10 feet away, and sneaking off to see her unannounced. If those things are supposed to make his love for Olivia more palatable, I still can't agree because I personally could never see how any of those actions are justified just because he's in a loveless marriage with his wife. Am I supposed to feel sorry for him? Because I don't.

Because the truth is he could divorce Mellie, if he really wanted to. It would suck, it would be painful in the public eye, it would probably erode at his approval rating -- but he could make it happen. Or if he wants to stay President, out of respect for his family, for his wife as a human being, and for Olivia, the woman he supposedly loves, he could wait it out until his 4 years are up and go after her. Again, it would suck, but it is an option.

From my own personal POV, I just can't condone cheating, even if the cheater is desperately in love with the person they're cheating with. But my biggest issue is really with the writers. This show had the potential to be amazing. I'm so proud of Kerry Washington for her work. Being the first African-American female lead on network television in decades is an incredible honor, and I think she's doing a terrific job with the role. It's nice to have a positive, strong representation of a woman who looks like me in a leadership position on TV when on most shows we're at best subjugated to the best friend role and at worst, random person of color extra doing either nothing or questionable things. And I'm not going to pretend that for me there isn't a certain satisfaction knowing the minute Olivia walks into a room she's the center of attention, and that from the Presidential standpoint, she's the most desirable woman in the room. But what takes it back 200 years (hence the Thomas Jefferson reference) for me is instead of giving Olivia the badass a viable love interest, for the sake of drama, she gets to be the Other Woman, the (albeit unintentional) temptress, the dirty secret. I recognize that her race isn't the reason why, but masking infidelity in the universally accepted star-crossed lover archetype doesn't make me feel any better about it.

I know I whine about the lack of characterization incessantly, but it's the cheating and the sneaking around that's actually my least favorite part of this entire show.
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#776

SnowFlea

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 3:38 AM

Now as for him being a cheater... Does anyone of us have any proof that he even cheated with Olivia?

I’m mostly of the belief they haven’t consummated anything. We know Liv can be stubborn and seems to have a fear of intimacy. When she is vulnerable with someone, it’s a big deal (Oh, if Quinn turns out to be a turncoat...). I do think this happened with Fitz and that they got very close and genuinely connect on a level they don’t with other people. I think this scares the hell out of Livvy – that she could lose control and her perspective, and be consumed by her feelings for this man and his feelings for her, that he could hurt her. But it wouldn’t surprise if they got thisclose to doing the deed and then someone (Liv) decided to get all noble about who they were/could be and put the brakes on until she could back away enough to make the moment pass.

In fact, I think that’s why she quit the WH. Because she wanted to give in and was afraid she would. She couldn’t take the heat and got out of the kitchen.

You'd think he'd know better than to try to re-live the Kennedy, Carter, and Clinton mistakes with regard to the intersection of personal and public morality.

Yeah, you would think. And IRL, if he professed to be a believer, I’d certainly hold his feet to the fire about Matthew 5. But he hasn’t said anything about his faith and this is TV, so [for me that doesn’t apply[. He’s not thinking clearly. The guy has just recently become the leader of the free world (pressure). He’s lost one of his most trusted friends and advisers (Liv), whom he also has deep and complicated feelings for. His VP hates his guts, so he has to watch his back. The tension in his marriage has only lessened, apparently, because he and Mellie have new roles and are stuck in the WH together. And now this Amanda Tanner/Livvy’s shutting me out/Someone’s trying to take me down thing. I think it’s safe to say it’s not the best time in his life. Sure, he could do better with being more careful around Liv in public, but I think that’s endearing. Sometimes he’s so happy to be near her, he forgets about his station and doesn’t care.

As for being a douche/tool/whatever for cheating: [for me], his emotional/possibly physical cheating is no worse than the lying and duplicity, backbiting, arrogance, gossip, self-righteousness, and whatever else is going on in the WH and at OPA every single day. [snip]

What I see is two people deeply in love, living in a world where their love is impossible.

But it’s not impossible. If they want to fix it, the situation is very fixable – he can give it all up for her (if Ms. Fix-It will let him), or they can wait to fully give in to their deep, passionate love until his term is over. It’s 4 years, not forever. As long as Mellie gets the political hookup (a powerful job or a new powerful man -- Billy’s cute, free and can dance) and she doesn’t end up embarrassed, I think she’d go along and not be evil about the kids.

he is also a man deeply in love and that love wants her even to the point of making love to her. It would not be about sexual gratification but a physical manifestation of the emotional state of being in love.

JazzBand, this is downright seductive and I co-sign, in theory, [but then I remember that] Fitz pinned that girl to the wall and grunted at her like prey. Livvy can barely look at him much less breathe and had to stop herself from kissing him.

Fitz and Liv getting close

Those two are hot, and hungry for each other. It ain’t just about the love.

agentAA08, we're apparently sharing part of a brain; I didn't see your post until after I posted. I'm not a fan of the sneaking around, either. If Mellie knows whatever she thinks she knows, just be up-front about it. I don't get what the big deal is there.

Edited to get in a response to agentAA08

Edited by TWoP Howard, May 8, 2012 @ 10:29 PM.
Boards on boards, dismissive "but please"

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#777

Aurilly

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:26 AM

I still agree with the theory that Quinn is a spy. There has to be more there. Also, when did she and Gideon become so close that he is nervously making grilled cheese and she's crying in his doorway? I feel like I missed something, because they only started making out last episode, right? And last episode happened only the day before this one started. Also, Gideon has been blah but fine so far, but all of a sudden he started talking like a Grey's Anatomy female character. It was so jarring. Gideon opened the door, but Meredith or Christina opened her mouth. it was like Shonda was half asleep and accidentally wrote dialogue for another show she was working on.

I was so convinced that Olivia and David were going to sleep together in the next episode (the foreshadowing was bouncing off the walls) but then Fitz showed up at her doorstep. Now I don't know. I think she might fight her feelings for Fitz, and then break once he leaves, and go have desperation sex with David, which Fitz will find out about and drama.

The case of the week was great, affecting, and unexpected. Good job. More of this, please! It felt like something almost plausible. Fitz also had some great presidential moments (awesome moment with the VP) as well as that great humorous scene with the security guards. That was my favorite part of the episode.

I can't help but see Stephen's sluttiness more as pathetically tragic than gross. Everything about him speaks to really deep-seated self-esteem issues. [He seems to have] the pedigree and the smarts to do anything he wants to do, but he doesn't believe in himself. At all. That was clear in the pilot. It was clear here. He's gotten a little lazy an a little down on himself. What he's doing doesn't really feel like 'playboy'. It feels desperate and sad. It's definitely reprehensible and needs to stop. NOW. But I just want to give him a gentle smack and then a hug. But agreed with whoever said above that there's a reason why the fiancee has not been given a face. [I think we’re] supposed to like Stephen in spite of his issues, but that would be much harder to do if we knew or cared about the fiancee. I have a feeling we'll only meet her in time for them to break up. Also, I hate a "who's baby" drama even more than I hate cheaters (and I hate them a lot, except for Stephen, apparently), so if sleeping with that woman was the only way to make the annoying Amanda baby thing go away forever, I'm totally fine with that. Great casting for Stephen; I really hate adultery storylines, but if there is one actor who could get away with anything for me, it's HIC. He could kill someone in cold blood, and I'd still find him sweet. He oozes such a sweet, soothing presence.

The less said about the torture scene, the better. How disturbing. But great job by the actor. I love Huck.

Edited by TWoP Howard, May 8, 2012 @ 10:37 PM.
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#778

Joimiaroxeu

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:35 AM

But what takes it back 200 years (hence the Thomas Jefferson reference) for me is instead of giving Olivia the badass a viable love interest, for the sake of drama, she gets to be the Other Woman, the (albeit unintentional) temptress, the dirty secret. I recognize that her race isn't the reason why, but masking infidelity in the universally accepted star-crossed lover archetype doesn't make me feel any better about it.

ICAM. However, I do think the "Jezebel" stereotype is the elephant in the room and that Olivia's race is part of the issue. I guess it's not supposed to be an overt issue in the fictional universes Shonda Rhimes is famous for creating, but it's still a titillating factor for many people. The US has not yet actually achieved post-racial status and this situation would not look the same if Fitz were Black.

Because the truth is he could divorce Mellie, if he really wanted to. It would suck, it would be painful in the public eye, it would probably erode at his approval rating -- but he could make it happen. Or if he wants to stay President, out of respect for his family, for his wife as a human being, and for Olivia, the woman he supposedly loves, he could wait it out until his 4 years are up and go after her. Again, it would suck, but it is an option.

Absolutely. I'd be behind it if Fitz were to man up and make the changes in his life necessary for him to be able to approach Olivia openly and honestly. But since he seems to be unwilling or unable to do that, he should stay the hell away from her and leave her alone, at least until his presidency is over and getting divorced wouldn't perhaps be such a political liability for him. The problem is, he wants to have his cake and eat it too, and/or he's afraid that Olivia won't be able to wait it out and will fall in love with someone else. Is he planning to keep stalking her until his term is over? Love or no, I think his behavior toward Olivia is disrespectful, both to her and his wife.
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#779

Hoshiskye

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 10:17 AM

Well, mileage does vary because I’ve started to find Pope & Associates endearing. I could do without the blatant man-whoring from Stephen but I think he has a soothing presence that would make him a good friend to lean on in a crisis. Abby’s crazily judgmental but she makes me laugh & I feel like she’s still trying to shrug off her bitter baggage. There’s Huck who is brilliant, broken, and utterly loyal and my stylishly smooth Harrison. I could probably do without Quinn who seems to me to be inauthentic/hiding a nuke/or ridiculously incompetent. I still think I could grow to like her though if she starts proving to be relevant. I hope to spend a real season of tv hours getting to know them.


blissfullylost, I agree with this and your entire post. Especially wrt Abby.

If nothing else is believable, I truly believe that Fitz is in love with Olivia. Is it right? Not at all. Do I root for him? Not really. There's no way this relationship could work and I don't think the show is trying to convince people otherwise. But regardless, when Fitz touched Olivia's hand in the second episode, I wanted them to get a room already. I can't help but be compelled to something that everyone knows is a trainwreck waiting to happen, but they can't help but go there full speed ahead.

Also AgentAA08, I get your misgivings about Olivia and Fitz but I find it really hard to believe that if Scandal gets to live on past these seven episodes that Olivia won't have another, viable, love interest cutting off the opportunity for more drama.
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#780

Hughes

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 10:35 AM

Huck and his journey tore me up, as did his reaction to Olivia trying to touch him -- so much pain, so much loss, so much damage.


This made me incredibly sad for Huck. We were always given a sense that something was just a litte off with the guy, but I had no idea just how badly damaged he is. But it explains why he's so fiercely loyal to Olivia...and why it was so realistic that he couldn't accept her attempt to empathize or comfort him after he'd gone back to that dark place. It was like watching a man temporarily returning to a dark, nasty hole he'd been held in for years then re-emerging again as damaged as ever.

Man that torture scene was intense...and disturbing.

So many great commits to reply to...;-)

ETA:

Cyrus seemed positively ghoulish about her death. I get that obviously he viewed Amanda negatively because of what she was doing, but jeez. She's dead. Even if you don't care for her, don't sit there acting like it is best thing you ever heard, particularly when the other person you are with is clearly shaken over the whole thing.


From the expression on Fitz's face after Cyrus's little speech, he, much like myself looked horrified and disgusted by his cold calculation and dismissal of Amanda's death. My regard for Cyrus pretty much diminished during his rant a few episodes back due to how disrepectful and flippant he presented himself. I realize he was/is trying to make a point with Fitz that his indiscretions where Olivia and the allegations regarding Amanda could bring down his presidency, but the dismissive, callous way he's gone about has left me cold where his character is concerned.

ETA (again):

Well, mileage does vary because I’ve started to find Pope & Associates endearing. I could do without the blatant man-whoring from Stephen but I think he has a soothing presence that would make him a good friend to lean on in a crisis. Abby’s crazily judgmental but she makes me laugh & I feel like she’s still trying to shrug off her bitter baggage. There’s Huck who is brilliant, broken, and utterly loyal and my stylishly smooth Harrison. I could probably do without Quinn who seems to me to be inauthentic/hiding a nuke/or ridiculously incompetent. I still think I could grow to like her though if she starts proving to be relevant. I hope to spend a real season of tv hours getting to know them.

I also empathize with Olivia. She did all the right things to become a superstar at her career but now everything’s starting to come apart at the seams because of a doomed love affair that she tried to put behind her. I’m convinced that she has a good heart and has helped tons of people and must be extraordinarily competent. I just feel like I’m seeing a perfectionist dealing with a seemingly unfixable mistake which colors everything. It makes sense to me that she’s abrupt and making impulsive decisions at the lowest point in her life. She keeps moving though and imperfectly trying to be The Olivia Pope that everyone expects. She’s not curled up at home eating Chunky Monkey; she’s managing to get major things accomplished. I absolutely think Olivia on her worst day is still so very worth knowing.


This is the best summary of the show so far and what I believe the writers have attempted to show the audience to date.

This last episode went a long way in cleaning up a lot of the hamfisted, sledgehammery writing that plagued the pilot and that was sprinkled throughout the proceeding episodes as well. It was well paced, written, performed and directed. It moved would could have been a storyline that would have dragged out ad naseum into an area that is far more intriguing and can fuel the next season (if the show is picked up) effectively. There is far more fall-out to Amanda Tanner's death than I believe her remaining alive could have provided on both sides of this "war".

Edited by Hughes, May 8, 2012 @ 11:44 AM.

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