47 replies to this topic

[lawless]

There's been so much talk about Randall, whether he's good or bad, how much of a threat he poses, and what to do with him that I thought maybe it would be nice to give that topic it's own thread. Personally, I initially thought Rick might be right, and that maybe he's just a kid trying to survive that got mixed up with bad people. But given the info. Daryl got from him, I think he doesn't mind his gang's pirate activities. As for what to do with him . . . well, I don't know that they have to execute him immediately, but they can't let him go. Other thoughts?

[Luckedout]

Someone in another thread had mentioned that the rape story might have just been a fabrication to test Daryl, see if he's into that, though it backfired. Someone else had mentioned that when people are tortured they tend to say what their tortures would like to hear, not necessarily the truth.

Now let me set up this alternate scenario, play a little devil's advocate.

Tony and Dave are the Merle/Shane of their group. If it is a big group and those two normally scout ahead, they could prey on survivors without the larger group being aware of it. Just like CDB keeps their secrets, so does the scouts from those that stay at their camp.

Randall had said that there were women and kids in his group as well. Maybe the majority are decent people that keep their head down and don't question from where the scouts get their supplies.

After spending a week ignored, then 18 miles out happens and Randall feels that Rick's group is crazier than his, less safe than his, but he's stuck so he says whatever it takes to save his life. He knows Maggie (maybe he just overheard her name called out by Hershel, so he lied. They were going to abandon him in zombieland while tied up.)

Back at the farm, they start asking him questions about his group, but CDB is so nuts, so fractured that Randall doesn't want them to screw with his old group. Maybe he can escape, get back to some sanity. So yeah, 30 guys with heavy guns! Stay away from my old group, they'll kick your ass (could be lies, to protect them). That's not good enough, more torture, Daryl isn't happy with his answers.

His companions shot at Daryl's boys. Daryl wants to hear some evil shit. Yeah, his group had raped some girls, cute girls, young...teenagers. Is that what Daryl wants to hear? CDB never talks to him, maybe they're into that? Randall doesn't know, he's in the dark because they kept him there.

Nope. It's not. All he did was piss Daryl off more and nothing he says is going to make him stop. He claims innocence, he's lying. He claims to witness some evil shit, he's complicit. He can't win.

He sees Carl and Randall goes on how good his dad is, how much better his group is, because in Randall's experience that's true. All he knows about CDB is that they'll torture you after saving you and waiting for you to heal.

Is it the truth? I don't know. Just a possibility to consider.

[lawless]

Someone in another thread had mentioned that the rape story might have just been a fabrication to test Daryl, see if he's into that, though it backfired

.

Small voice -- it was me. I thought the way Randall described the girls as young and cute, and made sure to mention that they didn't kill them, was a way of fishing, to see if Daryl would bite. Daryl is obviously violent and probably looks to Randall to be the type to join his gang. I thought that Randall was just hoping that maybe Daryl would be interested in his gang's lifestyle enough that he might free Randall if Randall promised to take Daryl to them so he could join. I guess you can't blame Randall for trying whatever he can think of to get away, but Randall also seemed like he was ok with the events he spoke about, so I think he's a bad guy. Even if he truly didn't participate (which is doubtful, most gang rapists make everyone take part), he certainly provided the rapists with some of the force and threats his gang used against the girls and their father.

Now, the scenario you described could also be true. It could. But I look back to Randall begging for his life by telling Rick that he could help protect "what you got." Not "your people," "your family," or even "your farm," but "what you got." It was revealing in my mind that he described what was worthwhile in language about possessions, and not people. It suggests to me that he was of a like mind to Dave and Tony. Randall is swarmy, and the more he talks the less I like him. Also, if the scenario you described were true, he could say so -- he could say they couldn't control what Dave and Tony do when they are away from the group, but that the rest of them were nice, decent people. He could still describe his group as large and heavily armed, but there would be no reason to say the damning things he said just to protect them.

However, I don't think there is an immediate need to kill him. They should have found out where this group was camped and how long they were going to be in the area. If they kept Randall for long enough and his gang moved on, he probably couldn't find his group even if he wanted too. If the gang wasn't going to move on, that's something they need to know because other "scavangers" might just happen upon Herschel's farm. In any case, there's still risk to keeping him longer, and maybe if they felt he was truly a threat they'd still have to kill him. It would be more difficult the longer he stays with them and the more they get to know him as a person, but it's an option they could have discussed.

[Luckedout]

Remember, the guy in the truck which left Randall said something along the lines of "Sorry, I gotta go." If you're going to dissect a phrase, why did that guy say sorry at all? If they're so bloodthirsty why have any regret in leaving someone behind? In a larger context, "what you got" doesn't raise any flags for me.

He could still describe his group as large and heavily armed, but there would be no reason to say the damning things he said just to protect them.

If CDB wanted an accurate description of Randall's group they should have asked during his week of recovery. By now, he's dehydrated most of the time, don't know how often he's being fed if at all, and the struggle at public works plus the torture have aggravated his injured leg. It's doubtful that he can think clearly.

By the time they ask about the group, his mind is racing on making them seem as the most intimidating MOFO's out there, he's going to describe them as such. So he vacillates, there's women and kids, no wait, 30 guys with guns. No wait, a small group of scouts found this camper and his two daughters. So what is it? Is there 30 guys + women and children, or is that included in the sum? How many of the group found that family? The whole group, five scouts, two guys? Is the whole group a bunch of bad guys or just some?

Since Daryl doesn't have any interrogation experience, he doesn't needle out these details. He just punches Randall and waits for an answer, instead of making specific questions. He gets general answers without trying to catch Randall in a lie by repeating a question with a different twist to see if he stumbles. And Randall does stumble, because 30 people is a nice round number that somebody would throw out there as double the amount of the people keeping him prisoner.

[lawless]

I agree with you completely that they have utterly bungled things with Randall, and that they should have questioned him without torture while he was healing. Actual experts in interrogation usually say they get much more accurate information through humane treatment and isolation, because they lend a "friendly ear." Shane and Rick should at the very least resorted to good cop bad cop, but from what we can tell, if looks like they ignored him completely or that they both bad copped him. Your right, now they can't trust anything he says because of how they've handled things. But if they at least got a location of the gang from him, they could have tried to spy it out to see what's really what, but they failed.

I can't deny it, everything in your alternate scenario is plausible. But yet something about Randall still feels bad to me. How terrible it would be if you're right though, and they kill him needlessly? Dale, though painfully naive in some ways, had a point.

[Luckedout]

I'm not actually sure that the camper and his two daughters was real. The way he describe it by bits, girls then cute then teenagers. Felt like he was building it in his head.

Quick way to catch him in a lie would be to ask him what their hair/skin color, what were they wearing? If he can't answer and struggles to come up with anything, then he's making it up.

And if he's making it up, then he's that desperate to get the torture to stop, like people that admit to crimes they didn't commit while being interrogated. Look up false confessions or the innocent pleading guilty for examples.

Now he does give off bad vibes and it could be that he's nothing more than a lying rapist scumbag; but the possibility that he isn't is still there.

[lawless]

The possibility is still there, and it's scary because there's almost no way to know without some evidence other than his word.

However, it did just occur to me that Randall has no idea what Dave and Tony said to Rick in the bar. The fact that his story about raping the girls sounds so consistent with what they were up to, I lean again toward it being a real story. Plus Dave and Tony were so persistent in finding out about the farm, even though Herschel mentioned a larger group. Two guys wouldn't be very successful in victimizing others who are also armed all by themselves, I figured they would attack with more of their friends. This makes the notion that they are an aberration less likely, and since Randall was with them, it makes his story about witnessing the rape (if not participating in it) more likely. He's chained in the barn though, no need to shoot him right away.

[Luckedout]

Yet Rick could have told Daryl and Daryl could have began the interrogation with that hook. "Your group are nothing but a bunch of raping pillagers, the two guys in the bar is proof enough of that. You were a part of that and that's why you're chained up in this barn with me."

We didn't see the start of it, we don't know what was said. we can only assume. If Rick/Herschel/Glen (ha!, Glen probably told everyone what happened in that bar) had told Daryl, he's going to go in there with that in mind and it'll color every answer that Randall gives.

[captnamerca]

What really caught my attention is how thick he laid the Southern accent on when talking to Carl.

I don't know if it was just a bad accent from a non-southern actor, or he was really trying hard to get on Carl's good side and tried too hard to say "I'm like you guys!", but it seemed way over the top in that scene.

[JanGator]

Any glimmer of hope I had that Randall was truly innocent vanished when he talked with Carl. The whole, "Oh, is Rick your dad? I like your dad!" thing was a grossly manipulative thing to say to a kid.

They he tops it off with, "Why don't you let me go and I'll take you and your mom and dad to our place? We have plenty of people, food..." (or whatever he talked about) Notice how he didn't talk about the others in the group, just Carl and his family. Perfect setup for hostages that can be used as pawns to take over the farm.

[morrigan2575]

Randall had said that there were women and kids in his group as well. Maybe the majority are decent people that keep their head down and don't question from where the scouts get their supplies.

I actually thought that was complete and total BS, especially since we know that Tony/Dave were on the hunt for some "cooz". Plus the Tony/Dave's instance that Rick's crew were living on a farm somewhere leads me to believe that Randall has been providing information around town and suggested they start looking at farms.

Nope, sorry Randall is bad news all around.

[Pandora3]

If CDB wanted an accurate description of Randall's group they should have asked during his week of recovery.

If Randall's group is rapey robbers and he's an unwilling tag along, he should have volunteered information. These people saved him, carried him back to their place, and gave him medical treatment. That means they're showing some kind of decency toward a stranger. Randall's group, by his own claims, hasn't. If you're a good guy you should want to side with Rick's group. If you're playing around in case you can get a better deal by rejoining the rapey robber group, don't cry when you're executed.

I personally think in a society without external law and jails, when you meet strangers it's incumbent upon YOU to not give off bad vibes. That means:

Insisting on information about your location and supplies = shot in the head
Inquiring as to available cooze while peeing on the floor = shot in the head
Not being helpful to strangers who saved your ass = shot in the head
Creepy recap of a rape you supposedly watched = shot in the head
Generally looking like you'll take anything by force = shot in the head

All over the country, and probably the world, it's probably Rick groups vs. Philly Pirate groups everywhere. People who are trying to establish some kind of safety and decency are within their moral bounds to shoot people who want unhindered robbing and raping. Matter of fact, it's immoral NOT to shoot those people because if you don't, they'll run the show. If Rick hadn't encountered the Philly Pirates in the bar they might well have already visited Hershel's place and killed everyone there. Is that really a better moral outcome?

Dale's speechifying was completely pointless to me. It's not your job to suss out whether someone is a threat if they're giving mixed signals. Shane was completely right, if Randall causes any harm to the group, it's on Dale's head. Or what's left of his head, I guess.

[spencer333]

Some reasons I think Randall is bad news:

Tony was looking for cooze, seemed like a slimey rapey guy, if they had women back at their gang, he would not be hoping for women at Hershel's farm.

Randall really want nasty/seemd to enjoy killing that female walker, I know, we'd all be Walker killing in that world, but the way they portrayed him in that scene "C'mon bitch, lessee what ya got" seemd like they were painting him as a bad guy.

Trying to manipulate Carl.

lastly, i think he told the rape story at first to fish out if Daryl would maybe join him...then back pedaled..I'll need to rewatch that secene to be sure.

[Tallalime]

Tony was looking for cooze, seemed like a slimey rapey guy, if they had women back at their gang, he would not be hoping for women at Hershel's farm.

I'm not sure that that necessarily follows. If Tony was from a larger group similar in structure to CDB most of the women (if not all) would have attachments within the group. They would be the wives/sisters/daughters of other members. It's unlikely that Tony (or anyone else particularly rapey) would risk expulsion from the Group by raping integral members of it.

If he, and other likeminded members of the larger group, acted as scouts. Then they could rape whosoever they pleased, and not even mention it 'back home'. So the female members of the core group remain unmolested but Tony still needs cooze.

Of course, that's not much of a defence for Randall, since it's unlikely you'd be party to the raping and/or pillaging, unless you'd shown yourself to be that way inclined.

So to summarise, I think Randall is rapey...but that doesn't mean there aren't women/children in his group. After all Shane is a little bit rapey and murdery himself, and the farm has womenfolk aplenty.

[KirkB]

I don't think it actually matters if Randall's old group is made up entirely of men looking for all kinds of stuff and raping any viable victims they come across, or a family unit with a select number of 'bad apples' being the ones who go out scouting, the real issue here is Randall himself. He obviously knows what at least some of the guys in his old group are like. He was there when it happened, he watched what happened to the farmer's daughters, and either stood by and said nothing or joined in. From the sound of it, they are probably guys who would slap him around and call him names if he didn't take part, so for his own survival I'm betting he did. Whether he enjoyed it or not I can't say, but I would advise CDB get rid of him, one way or another, as soon as possible.

[30somethingmom]

Like someone mentioned in another thread, I thought the entire point of the rape story was to PROVE to the audience that Randall is a bad guy beyond a shadow of a doubt. Before that, he could have gone either way. So if Rick decided to kill him then, I think a lot of viewers would no longer be able to relate to our gang. Judging by a lot of commenter here even AFTER the rape story, it seems like the average person would have a hard time getting on board with killing Randall before he actually committed a crime (though I'd argue that shooting at Rick and even passive rape participation would qualify).

Randall relaying the rape story to Darryl really doesn't make a lot of sense no matter how you look at it, so I thought it was a way for the audience to not view Rick's group as monsters for executing this innocent(?) man. Although sometimes it seems like it, I don't think the writers are intentionally trying to create an entire group of characters that no one can sympathize with. It's hard to continue to cheer for your protagonist when they do morally reprehensible things, even during the ZA (in TV land at least - I still think a lot of you will be changing your tunes when the real ZA goes down).

[KirkB]

You might be right in that it was the writers heavy-handedly pointing out to us "Hey! This is a BAD guy!" but from the perspective of the character I can see why he would say it. Daryl is knocking him around, and he's trying to tell this guy he's not bad (regardless of whether he is or not) so he points out "Hey! My guys did this terrible thing but I didn't!" That's something a young adult would say to try and make himself look better. It is, in fact, a stupid comment, and exactly the wrong thing to say to someone like Daryl but from the standpoint of someone being knocked around (which, if nothing else, means he's not thinking as clearly as he would otherwise) it's one of those things you say that you immediately realize was better off staying in your head.

Edited by KirkB, Mar 7, 2012 @ 7:31 PM.

[agora]

...I thought the entire point of the rape story was to PROVE to the audience that Randall is a bad guy beyond a shadow of a doubt.

To me, that was more than clear when he shot Glenn & Hershel two episodes ago, the rape story only made him a threat from Beth to Carol.

Edited by agora, Mar 7, 2012 @ 7:34 PM.

[30somethingmom]

To me, that was more than clear when he shot Glenn & Hershel two episodes ago, the rape story only made him a threat from Beth to Carol.

From Rick's group's perspective, yes. Randall shot at them, therefore he's a bad guy and he has to go - he should have been left on the fence from the get-go. But from an objective perspective, Randall could be an innocent member of the other group just trying to survive. Randall shot, but Rick had already killed two of his men, so he's not necessarily a bad person for defending himself and shooting back. The rape story was the nail in the coffin to show he's not just a regular guy from another group trying to survive, but a sinister person who participates in group rapes of young girls. The story he told was SO disturbing - its main purpose was to show insight into who Randall is as a person.

I suppose it's possible that Randall could be trying to lure Darryl, or trying to prove that he's not like the others. But it just seems kind of clunky. It's strange behavior that doesn't seem very likely under the circumstances. So why include that scene? It doesn't change Darryl's mind, except to have him step up the beating. Oddly enough, the incident doesn't even seem to be brought during the trial, even though it's probably the biggest piece of evidence into Randall's character. I'd like to hear Dale defend that story. When I first saw the scene, my reaction was "oh - so it's confirmed that Randall is evil". I think that was the intended effect and I'm surprised that not many others on these forums had that reaction.

[Luckedout]

If the rape story had to be beaten out of him, then I do not trust its validity. To name Randall as evil I need concrete proof. Till then, the possibility that he's half-mad with despair and babbling whatever he thinks is the "right answer" is still valid.

Randall needs to be killed. As a mercy and a necessity. Nothing he says can be trusted and after the torture, neither can he. If he wasn't a danger before, he is now. That's on Rick and his group, but doing the right thing now has a much higher likelihood of getting them killed.

It's being dragged out and he doesn't need to be blindfolded and ceremoniously executed. Just do it quick and do it clean. Get it over with.

[lawless]

I agree that the "ceremony" surrounding his execution is just making it more agonizing for Randall, and does nothing to make it more "legitimate" for CDB. It's not the death penalty in that it's not punishment for crimes, but more like killing a captured soilder in war because they can't manage POWs. They never should have saved him in the first place, and since they did, they never should have treated him the way that they have. Sigh. But that's water under the bridge.

My problem now is that Randall, in and of himself, is a relatively mild threat. Sure, if he got ahold of a weapon he could hurt someone all by himself, but he's weak, scared, and just wants to get away. The threat he poses is his potential to alert his group, which he said was large and heavily armed. If they do away with Randall, they do away with the possibility that he will bring his gang to the farm. However, that large groups still remains a threat so long as it is in the area, because other members on other "scavaging" missions could stumble into CDB at any time. They came from up north, maybe they're heading south for the winter, and maybe Georgia is far enough for them. In which case, Rick and the gang need more information from Randall about what they're dealing with. Is the plan for his pirate gang to keep moving? To stick around? If they're sticking around, for how long? And where exactly are they camped? If Randall's a local, he should know. There's a lot more information about this very serious danger that they should have gotten from Randall before trying to kill him. They also should have tried to get the information out of him without torture, because that makes everything suspect. Well, it would be anyway, but it would have been better to treat him nice, feed him, slip him some of Merle's kickass pain killers, and get him chatting. They could still kill him later if they felt they needed to, but get the critical details about the real threat, to which Randall is mostly a connection, first.

[KirkB]

Yes, but can anything Randall says be trusted?
When he answers questions, be they from Rick or Daryl or whomever, they have no way of knowing if he's telling the truth, just pulling stuff out of his ass, or telling them what he thinks they want to hear so they will stop beating him. And even once they have answers, it does not solve the problem of what to do with him. For sake of argument, say he's more or less a nice guy and is telling them the honest truth. What then? Let him go? Nice guy or not, if he goes back to the other gang or is found by them, he's going to end up telling THEM as much about CDB as he can, whether voluntarily or through the same methods CDB used. Keep him locked up so they have to keep a guard posted there all the time and share their resources with him? Let him out and integrate him into the group? They'll never be able to really trust him, and even if he was a nice guy before (which I doubt) I can't imagine he would be after what they did to him. Kill him? It seems like the only logical end to Randall's story. They need to get all the information they can out of him (whether or not it's actually a reliable source is another matter) and have someone (probably Daryl at this point) end it.

[agora]

To me, that was more than clear when he shot Glenn & Hershel two episodes ago, the rape story only made him a threat from Beth to Carol.

From Rick's group's perspective, yes. Randall shot at them, therefore he's a bad guy and he has to go - he should have been left on the fence from the get-go.

I think the show has long established they would've never left him to be eaten, however, the show has also long established they would've never let him rape Beth and Maggie while Hershel watched either.

*ETA: I think Daryl and Dale would've killed him if Randall would've raped Carol or Andrea respectively.

Edited by agora, Mar 8, 2012 @ 11:29 AM.

[Luckedout]

But Randall didn't rape Carol or Andrea, hasn't even attempted to sweet-talk Andrea when she was his guard.

I get it, for a lot of people here he's guilty until proven innocent and there's no way to prove he's innocent, so he's just guilty. Case closed, let him rot.

That's not enough for me to condemn a man. If they kill him, they should just admit that they're doing it out of selfish fear for their survival and not that he's an actual threat that attacked unprovoked. He's damned by association, not by his actions.

[Asari]

When Randall told the rape story he wasn't horrified, he was getting off on it.

This guy is bad, bad news.

[Grimes]

That's not enough for me to condemn a man. If they kill him, they should just admit that they're doing it out of selfish fear for their survival and not that he's an actual threat that attacked unprovoked. He's damned by association, not by his actions.

Association is enough to get you killed in a wartime situation, and they are essentially at war with raping murderers.

[agora]

I think the show has long established they would've never left him to be eaten, however, the show has also long established they would've never let him rape Beth and Maggie while Hershel watched either.

*ETA: I think Daryl and Dale would've killed him if Randall would've raped Carol or Andrea respectively.

But Randall didn't rape Carol or Andrea, ...

Yet and only because he's been heavily guarded the whole time, the story could've been completely different otherwise.

[morrigan2575]

I also have to go back to the sheer enjoyment Randall seemed to take, not only in taunting the female Walker that was after him but in the seeming overkill (3 stabs?). Now, if that was all there was to Randall I could have excused it, as excitement, fear, adrenaline, taking over. However Zombie kill, plus his line to Rick (which Agora has mentioned) and then the rape story, manipulating Carl, shooting at Rick/Hershel, etc...it's just all adding up to Danger, Danger CDB!

Edited by morrigan2575, Mar 9, 2012 @ 12:43 PM.

[Moretta]

I also have to go back to the sheer enjoyment Randall seemed to take, not only in taunting the female Walker that was after him but in the seeming overkill (3 stabs?). Now, if that was all there was to Randall I could have excused it, as excitement, fear, adrenaline, taking over. However Zombie kill, plus his line to Rick (which Agora has mentioned) and then the rape story, manipulating Carl, shooting at Rick/Hershel, etc...it's just all adding up to Danger, Danger CDB!

I could write a little of (the zombie kill) off as adrenaline, but remember how much of a high he was on in the car after he and Rick rescued Shane? He seems like a type who enjoys these intense and violent situations way too much. That makes the rape story that much more probable to me.

I think the combination of the bad energy, plus the fact that he has not been forthcoming, makes him pretty likely to be a bad guy.

Oh, and also, wouldn't it have been swell if Carl had told someone that Randall had offered to take the Grimes back to his camp? That would have settled a lot things then and there. But alas.

Edited by Moretta, Mar 9, 2012 @ 9:15 PM.

[JanGator]

If they kill him, they should just admit that they're doing it out of selfish fear for their survival and not that he's an actual threat that attacked unprovoked. He's damned by association, not by his actions.

One of those actions was shooting at Rick, Glenn and Hershel from a rooftop. And fear for one's own survival is anything but selfish in this world.