23 replies to this topic

[SzmuttyPratfall]

Had to add this after episode 13.

I don't know why but I really enjoy Kathryn. She is just trying to make her life work, nothing underhanded about her, and really I think, with the exception of Henry, that Kathryn is the most innocent character on the show. It'll be interesting to watch how her disappearance plays out and whether or not Frederick will be of greater importance.

Edited: Also I really enjoyed the subdued but strong nature of the character. It really felt like she had this mask of strength that sh keeps up at all times, but I can't tell if its a mask or if the strength is inherent to the character. I also can't tell if I legitimately like her or if its just that she is often in a scene with David, who just makes her look so much better by comparison.

Edited by SzmuttyPratfall, Feb 19, 2012 @ 9:44 PM.

[legaleagle44]

I completely agree about Kathryn. And it was nice to see that Abigail was human, too!

[Camera One]

The actress does a good job of making her likeable. At first, I thought she might have been trying to con Prince Charming into going to the Lake of Magic Waters.

[blue green]

It is pretty impressive that she was able to almost see through the curse all on her own.

[Spartan Girl]

I completely agree about Kathryn. And it was nice to see that Abigail was human, too!

ITA. Now I kind of feel bad that I mentally called Abigail Princess Bitchface in those first few episodes. I'm glad at least she got her happy ending.

[MorninStar]

I liked Katherine/Abigail in this episode as well.. . it also made it obvious that she had sent others to their death in attempts to retrieve water from Lake Nostros. To her credit however, she did not force James to do so and perhaps the others were offered payments of gold. But she never loved James either and didn't want him.. and would have married him in the Enchanted lands had James not stood by his principles that he would not marry someone he did not love.. even for all the gold in the world (that King Midas could easily offered him). It is that honor, that bravery, that singleness of purpose and resolution that Regina took from James/David when she cast her curse.

Regina also messed with Abigail/Katherine's happiness/destiny when she cast the curse. Her & David/James were never meant to be.

Edited by MorninStar, Feb 21, 2012 @ 4:32 PM.

[Tzigone]

it also made it obvious that she had sent others to their death in attempts to retrieve water from Lake Nostros. To her credit however, she did not force James to do so and perhaps the others were offered payments of gold.

I get the impression that she hired others to do a supremely dangerous task, rather than ordering them (rather like James was supposedly hired to slay the dragon). I think she probably told them the success rate in advance, just like she did Charming. I do hope they got some of the money up-front, though; enjoy a good time (or give some money to family) before going to die.

I agree that she would have married Charming/James. I'm rather curious to the circumstances of that: was it a forced marriage like Charming (death threats involved) or was it her being a responsible heir to the throne and marrying to have an heir for the sake of the kingdom because it was her responsibility, etc.? Lack of heirs can lead to wars or takeovers. She couldn't marry who she loved, so marry for the Kingdom?

One of the most interesting things is that Kathryn had ears inside George's court. And they seem to be her own, not Daddy's. She's not a passive character just accepting what she's told. I like that.

[MorninStar]

I agree that Katherine didn't force anyone to go to Lake Nostros to free Fredrick..she wouldn't have to.. she has as much gold at her disposal as one could ever want for. Perhaps the accumulated attempts to retrieve water from the lake is why she gave up and agreed to marry the most noble and courageous Prince her father could find. I do believe, as is common in Royal families, that Abigail was obligated to marry and (sorry for lack of a better term) become part of a 'breeding pair' to save the Kingdom.

Still, depending upon how much control Regina has with the curse, I don't think she was as concentrated on Abigail/Katherine as she was on James/David and Snow/Mary M. I think Regina was shocked when Katherine was able to put into words exactly what the curse did. Katherine was also not happy and she knew David was not her 'true love' and most likely, had never been. I don't think she specifically had a vendetta against Abigail/Katherine.. she was just a pawn to ruin David/James and Snow/Mary M. happiness. Ruining Katherine's happiness was just collateral damage.

I have been trying to think of what characteristics the curse may have removed/changed for Abigail. We know that, for example, the curse took away James' honor, bravery, fearlessness, integrity, courage, etc.. We don't know Katherine as well.. and we know that the curse took away her reunited happiness with Fredrick, but what else? This episode showed us a little more. That Abigail was perhaps not as cold and petulant as we believed her to be from earlier episodes.. but she does seem rigid, kind and decent.

[Princess Aldrea]

But she never loved James either and didn't want him.. and would have married him in the Enchanted lands had James not stood by his principles that he would not marry someone he did not love.. even for all the gold in the world (that King Midas could easily offered him).

I don't see this as a problem or a character flaw. She loved someone but he was beyond her reach and as good as dead. She tried to get him fixed but the death toll was so high she eventually gave it up as impossible. She needed an heir and so she agreed to marry. She presumably had no way of knowing about Snow White or King George's threats prior to her arriving at George's court and James running off and the minute she did know she decided to help him escape.

[MorninStar]

Princess Aldrea, I agree .. it's not a problem or a character flaw, but it's not exactly honest either. It was an arranged marriage.. one that Abigail evidently was aware of prior to the deal and had been discussed with her father, King Midas, but James was not aware of this 'deal'. He was forced into an agreement under duress (his life & the life of his mother). But that part was evil King George's doing, not Abigail's.

This show likes to compare/contrast Storybrooke with the Enchanted lands. This situation was reflected in the situation in Storybrooke.. David being forced to be married to someone he did not love.. one of his strongest convictions in the Enchanted lands was not to marry someone he did not love.

Abigail however.. it seems the 'story' didn't change for her. She married/was to be married to James/David for appearances/reasons other than love.. a marriage of illusion in both worlds.

Edited by MorninStar, Feb 22, 2012 @ 4:07 PM.

[Princess Aldrea]

Princess Aldrea, I agree .. it's not a problem or a character flaw, but it's not exactly honest either. It was an arranged marriage.. one that Abigail evidently was aware of prior to the deal and had been discussed with her father, King Midas, but James was not aware of this 'deal'.

How is it not honest? She never claimed to love him. I doubt that Abigail had anything to do with James not knowing about the wedding in advance or Midas deciding to go back on his offer.

[Tzigone]

I agree that it's not dishonest. Her father planned that if James succeeded in slaying the dragon and Abigail approved of him, he'd offer an alliance. "James" succeeded and Abigail approved and Midas offered. As far as they know, he accepted, albeit unenthusiastically, and they don't know about the threats.

Observation: I didn't think Midas was reneging on the original deal to give gold, but rather that this was a separate, new, deal. However, it seems like most people saw it the other way. To me, Midas was going to pay the gold, regardless of James' answer. At least, he said he was. This was just also a test. I don't really find anything too dishonest in that. George was dishonest (and he didn't ever plan on letting Charming go home, even before the proposal was made, IMO). I will say I don't think Midas ever even considered the idea he'd get a "no" when he offered Abigail's hand, though. The look between the two of them when Charming started to say "no" was kinda funny.

Abigail did not seem at all happy about her nuptials, but I think she might have been more convinced and cajoled into them, rather than forced.

Edited by Tzigone, Feb 22, 2012 @ 6:04 PM.

[Princess Aldrea]

Observation: I didn't think Midas was reneging on the original deal to give gold, but rather that this was a separate, new, deal.

I believe that George, at least, thought that Midas was changing the deal.

[Tzigone]

George: We treasure that respect, King Midas. Just as we respect your treasure.

Midas: Yes, yes, you were promised gold, and gold you shall have. But, I did not get where I am by thinking small ...

To me, Midas very much had the "done with the small stuff, now on to important business" tone of voice on the "but". He seemed to be speechifying like he's making a great offer (well, he did praise "James" a lot) - not a threat.

Now, George did seem shocked when "uniting the Kingdoms" was mentioned and he did talk about Charming being responsible for the destruction of the Kingdom with a "no." But I don't trust George. And even if George believed Midas would conquer them by force, I just didn't get that vibe from Midas. Actually, I'm rewatching the scene now and Midas is coming off better than I remembered, though definitely he wanted the marriage a lot more than Kathryn did.

Edited by Tzigone, Feb 22, 2012 @ 6:58 PM.

[MorninStar]

Perhaps 'not being honest' was not quite an accurate phrase to use. I certainly got a dishonest feel from King George. He seems to be one who would not honor an original agreement without additional contingencies if he saw another advantage. A real creep. I did not get an evil or dishonest feel from King Midas or Abigail, but perhaps a feel that they could buy whatever their wishes were with gold and that no one would/could possibly turn them down. In other words.. that anyone could be 'bought'.

[Spartan Girl]

Getting back to Abigail from the last episode, when James asked her if she tried true love's kiss on Frederick, and she said, "Until my lips bled" did anyone else get kind of...slightly...emotional. Something in the sad, defeated way she said it broke my heart.

[Tzigone]

It was great line, and well-delivered.


I'm still trying to pin down the real difference in Abigail and Kathryn, behaviorally. Did the curse take or add any personality trait? Unfortunately, we don't have that much Abigail footage to work with. Kathryn seems a bit more of the pleasing sort (to David), but that might just be due to the different circumstances. Abigail seems a bit more reserved to me, but we haven't seen enough to know, really. One thing I do notice is that Abigail has "ears" and knows what's going on and who the bad guy is while Kathryn is chatting with/trusting Regina, but that could be put down to circumstance,too.

[MorninStar]

Tzigone, I have been trying to figure out the same thing.. the subtle differences between Kathryn and Abigail, but I just don't think we know enough about either character. I would say Abigail was very.. 'royal', reserved and resolved to do what was best for her Kingdom. Practical. Actually.. someone who would make a good leader.. knowledgeable, informed and cool under pressure. Kathryn seemed a bit more like a victim. Passive. When she approached Regina just before leaving Storybrooke.. she seemed more like Abigail. Using her cool head and knowledge to make a decision that was best for all. It is a subtle difference, but I think making David miserable was more of a priority than making Kathryn miserable (to Regina).

Edited by MorninStar, Feb 23, 2012 @ 4:43 PM.

[Camera One]

Abigail seems more hardened, not willing to trust. That might have come across as aloof and rude on the carriage ride with James, for example. Meanwhile, Kathryn is almost too quick to trust, accepting someone like Regina as her friend, when she has a huge ulterior motive, seemingly oblivious to David falling for Mary Margaret, which was pretty obvious even while he was at the hospital.

Edited by Camera One, Feb 24, 2012 @ 1:43 AM.

[MorninStar]

Camera One, good observation. Abigail had 'ears' even in King George's Palace. She was no fool. I'm not saying Kathryn was a fool.. but she was too trusting.

[Tevye]

Wasn't Frederick/Jim supposed to be in last night's episode? I was hoping him and Kathryn would meet :D

[Camera One]

I hope that will be edited into a future episode...

[watcher1006]

I noted that it was Anastasia Griffith's birthday yesterday (March 23rd). It's bothered me a little that Kathryn/Abigail has just disappeared from the scene of OUAT. I know that Anastasia Griffith left to do the Copper series on BBC America, that actors have each have their own careers to consider and more power to her in finding future roles. Still, as far as the story in OUAT goes, it seems disconnected that Kathryn should have just dropped out of David's life without a word after the Season 1 episode "The Return".

[scarlett45]

I noted that it was Anastasia Griffith's birthday yesterday (March 23rd). It's bothered me a little that Kathryn/Abigail has just disappeared from the scene of OUAT. I know that Anastasia Griffith left to do the Copper series on BBC America, that actors have each have their own careers to consider and more power to her in finding future roles. Still, as far as the story in OUAT goes, it seems disconnected that Kathryn should have just dropped out of David's life without a word after the Season 1 episode "The Return".

Yes. I would think that Abigail/Frederick could've popped up in an episode as leaders (Abigail was a pretty kick ass princess), either helping the dwarves in the minds or helping the giant with the bean crop.

This season there are fewer "one off" episodes, but I do miss the feeling of a "full Storybrooke", an entire town.