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Magic, Enchantments, & Curses: Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo


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#91

Tricksterson

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Posted May 4, 2012 @ 3:47 PM

Oldandnewfirm: The exact wording is that the curse "reached out and touched other realms" Not sucked them in. What I think that means is that any inhabitants of the Fairy Tale World that were elsewhere got sucked out of there and into Storybrooke. What I find intrigueing is where they say not all the doors might be doors. They particularly mention a glass elevator, which I think might be the door to the right of Wonderland and the green curtain. To me the phrase they used, "behind the green curtain" really indicates that thats Oz. As for the glass elevator? the only thng that comes to mind is Willy Wonka's "Wonkavator".
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#92

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Posted May 5, 2012 @ 12:12 AM

I don't know how the curse works.. or what (active) role Emma has to play, but I have the feeling the adoption of Henry was not a legal one. How would Mr. Gold been approved as a baby broker? Regina never had home visits or a case worker from an adoption agency.

There is a children's story by Roald Dahl; Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator. It is a sequel to Charlie & The Chocolate Factory.
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#93

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Posted May 5, 2012 @ 8:43 AM

I don't know how the curse works.. or what (active) role Emma has to play, but I have the feeling the adoption of Henry was not a legal one. How would Mr. Gold been approved as a baby broker? Regina never had home visits or a case worker from an adoption agency.


I believe it was a private adoption and Mr. Gold was most likely Regina's lawyer. What little I know of private adoptions, I'd say Emma just has to agree to give her baby up to Regina and sign him over to her. Didn't Mr. Gold already threaten to find errors in the paperwork...

I'd love to find out Gold can leave Storybrooke as long as he intends to return.
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#94

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 3:22 AM

I wonder just exactly what it is going to take to break the curse??? I know Emma is the curse breaker and I just can't imagine that all it will take is for her to believe.Just what is it that she has to believe in anyways? That they all are from Fairytale Land, here because of some curse? That she truely is the daughter of Snow White and Prince Whateverthehellhisnameis??? Does Mary Margeret have to believe that Emma is her daughter too? Does everybody in Storybrooke have to believe that the are really a person/critter from a book of Fairy Tales. Then what is going to happen once the curse is finally broken? Also, it seems funny to me that these people are supposed to be cursed, living out some sort of Hell never to be able to live happily ever after. Yet it seems like most everybody isn't really that bad off and doing a whole hell of a lot better then I am. I mean nobody we have seen so far has it all that bad, I don't think anyways. When Witchepoo Ragina was at the wedding fortelling about the curse she made it sound pretty bad. Them two kids had it as bad as I have seen so far. Jefferson having to stay in his house spying on his daughter living with some other family wasn't so great. But he sure did have a really nice house, though. I wonder what he had to do for food? Domino's Pizza delivery boy shows up at the door but he can't open it so the guy gets pissed off and leaves. Or he has him slide it under the door and Jefferson slides the money back under it so he can get it. Then while Jefferson sits down to eat it he feels this cold draft going through the house.

So then what happens once the curse is broken? I think I might have asked this question before. Or else my mind is playing tricks on me again. But that ain't nothing new. What!!! You don't have little voices in your head telling you what to do??? Does it turn back into Fairytale Land just as it was right before the curse? Will Rumpelstiltskin be back in that cage in The Charmings dungeon? Will Emma turn back into a baby with everybody thinking it all was a nightmare that they all had at the same time? Or is Fairytale Land what is on the other side of the door that we seen at the end of LOST????? These questions and more will be answered on the next, Wait for it!!! SOAP.....
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#95

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 5:43 AM

Wait a minute, there's a door at the end of lost? I've never watched Lost, but does this door look like any of the doors from Jeferson's hat, not that I think the writers would ever put that into play, but now I'm very curious.
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#96

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 11:34 AM

The door at the end of Lost is just the door to the afterlife.

As to what happens afterthe curse is broken let me stress that I do not want season after season of futilely trying to break the curse, I could live ith it not being broken at the end of this saeson as long as Emma is brought to acknowledge her role but the end of next season max. That being said I'd return them to the Fairy Tale World only to find it a devastated wasteland with them struggling both to survive and to reestablish roles in this new world, or create new roles, perhaps having to deal with a new big bad in the form of the Red Queen invading.

Edited by Tricksterson, May 6, 2012 @ 11:35 AM.

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#97

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 11:55 AM

I believe, just as in LOST, there will something that turns the story on it's head.. something that we were not expecting which will make next season a whole new ballgame and the story will take another direction.
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#98

RTS390

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 2:14 PM

The door at the end of Lost is just the door to the afterlife.


With it being as bright as it was I was saying that it was the glow from the fires of Hell.....

Edited by RTS390, May 6, 2012 @ 2:21 PM.

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#99

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Posted May 10, 2012 @ 4:17 PM

Well, here's one fear eased:

Last question. They were able to snatch the apple in the last episode. Are you going to introduce any sort of time-traveling element to the logic of the show?

Horowitz: No, it's not about time travel so much as, Jefferson says very carefully to Regina, think about a time and a place where this thing is, and that's how magic was able to reach across time and space to bring it. It's not about travelng back and forth in time or changing the past or the present. These are the things that happened.


That's from a TV.com interview Kitsis and Horowitz recently did. It's linked over in the Spoiler thread for anyone who wants to read the full thing.
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#100

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Posted May 10, 2012 @ 5:28 PM

No, it's not about time travel so much as, Jefferson says very carefully to Regina, think about a time and a place where this thing is, and that's how magic was able to reach across time and space to bring it. It's not about travelng back and forth in time or changing the past or the present. These are the things that happened.


Any sort of "reaching back into the past" is problematic. If someone had only seen the vortex , it could have altered the timeline. Going forward in time, especially into another "land" doesn't have the same problems. This seems to be what the creators had in mind with Baelfire's transport and the Curse's transport. A safer route, albeit one without the dramatic impact, would have had Jefferson take the apple from some place where Regina had stored it. With no one around in Fairy Tale Land there could not have been any impact.

For those of you not SciFi fans, look up "The Grandfather Paradox."

To elaborate on the possible effects of this, suppose in the original timeline, Regina had retrieved the (once bitten) apple to keep for a possible second use. After Jefferson removes it from FTL, Regina's behavior would have been changed so that there is no guarantee that she would have acted subsequently in the same way, so the timeline could have been altered. Perhaps altered enough that she does not cast the Curse.

Edited by metaphysicist, May 10, 2012 @ 5:39 PM.

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#101

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Posted May 10, 2012 @ 5:44 PM

Any sort of "reaching back into the past" is problematic. If someone had only seen the vortex , it could have altered the timeline. Going forward in time, especially into another "land" doesn't have the same problems. This seems to be what the creators had in mind with Baelfire's transport and the Curse's transport. A safer route, albeit one without the dramatic impact, would have had Jefferson take the apple from some place where Regina had stored it. With no one around in Fairy Tale Land there could not have been any impact.


I think the hat works like Time Turners did in Harry Potter: events in the past have already happened regardless of whether or not they were caused by people in the future. So you can't go into the past and do something unless that action had a part in how the events of the past played out. So by using the hat to retrieve the apple, Jefferson wasn't changing the past-- the apple was fated, as it were, to fall into that vortex.

Edited by oldandnewfirm, May 10, 2012 @ 5:48 PM.

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#102

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Posted May 10, 2012 @ 6:02 PM

I think the hat works like Time Turners did in Harry Potter: events in the past have already happened regardless of whether or not they were caused by people in the future. So you can't go into the past and do something unless that action had a part in how the events of the past played out. So by using the hat to retrieve the apple, Jefferson wasn't changing the past-- the apple was fated, as it were, to fall into that vortex.


Well you are right that it avoids any paradox, but I've always found this sort of 'infinite loop' explanation of backwards time traveling to be very unsatisfactory. It never accounts for how such a 'loop' could have started, and, it pushed to its logical conclusion, denies free will. Each person acts in a way which the person has always and always will act. In the absence of free will, I don't see how notions of morality, etc. apply. Hence we can't be upset that Regina commits reprehensible acts, because she is fated to do so.
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#103

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Posted May 10, 2012 @ 6:22 PM

Well you are right that it avoids any paradox, but I've always found this sort of 'infinite loop' explanation of backwards time traveling to be very unsatisfactory. It never accounts for how such a 'loop' could have started, and, it pushed to its logical conclusion, denies free will. Each person acts in a way which the person has always and always will act. In the absence of free will, I don't see how notions of morality, etc. apply. Hence we can't be upset that Regina commits reprehensible acts, because she is fated to do so.


Time travel is always a messy subject. I consider it one of those Sci-Fi/Fantasy inventions that requires turning your brain off and just smiling and nodding at however the results of the time travel play out, because otherwise you'll get a massive headache.
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#104

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 4:22 PM

There's a technical term for it. Timey-whimey.
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#105

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 4:53 PM

There's a technical term for it. Timey-whimey.


I'm surprised the Doctor hasn't made an appearance yet. A small town where no one can enter, no one can leave, and no one ever ages sounds like the perfect place for a bit of friendly meddling.
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#106

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Posted May 12, 2012 @ 1:16 AM

To elaborate on the possible effects of this, suppose in the original timeline, Regina had retrieved the (once bitten) apple to keep for a possible second use. After Jefferson removes it from FTL, Regina's behavior would have been changed so that there is no guarantee that she would have acted subsequently in the same way, so the timeline could have been altered. Perhaps altered enough that she does not cast the Curse.


But Regina knew she never did that. She knew the apple just fell down the slope. I do get what you mean though... maybe someone else had eaten it and died, causing huge ramifications. But I guess in this case, they were lucky and nothing ever became of that apple.

I like your idea of Regina storing the apple somewhere. That would have made more sense. But clearly, she just wanted to waste it. I was appalled how she wasted that entire apple to put in that turnover. Put it in the freezer and save some pieces for possible Mary Margaret, David, etc. problems that could arise in the future.

Edited by Camera One, May 12, 2012 @ 1:17 AM.

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#107

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Posted May 12, 2012 @ 10:01 PM

The apple doesn't make them die.. it makes them in a permanent coma-like state where they appear dead, but endlessly dwell on regrets. It sort of sounds like what a dementor does to people in Harry Potter.
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#108

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Posted May 13, 2012 @ 3:28 AM

I really wish that they would have done that differently. I too like the idea of Ragina storing the apple someplace and then them just retrieving it. By them doing it the way they did it, they just opened up a big ole can of worms. So now that they have done it, there ain't no taking it back. No matter what, taking that apple affected the past. There could have been a bird come by and eat some of that apple and went to sleep never to wake up again. So by taking that apple now there might be an epidemic of bird flu because that bird never went to sleep. Then the bird flu spread across the land and killed multiple things along the way. Now they are able to go back to where ever they want and grab what ever they think hard enough about. Like grabbing the dagger or whatever it was that that dude threw at James. Now by doing this he wouldn't of had the opportunity to kill him and James would still be alive. I personally think it was a bad mistake on their part by doing this. Then again it is just a TV show and they don't have to revisit anything like that ever again.....
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#109

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Posted May 13, 2012 @ 1:25 PM

I don't think they opened a can of worms with it since it requires a magically powered hat. After getting this apple, it seems no one (except perhaps Gold) has anything left to power the hat. It was basically a one-time thing in Storybrooke unless everyone has a working magic ring in their back pocket which we basically know they don't.
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#110

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 2:04 AM

When Prince Charming kissed Snow White, there was a woosh of energy that turned winter and snowy trees into green again. Same thing when Emma kissed Henry, except the wave wiped away everyone's false memories. I wonder if a curse being broken (in these cases, the sleeping curse) sends off a wave of magical energy that can break/weaken other curses, and that's why it also restored everyone's memories in Storybrooke. Maybe there was a never-ending winter curse in the forest where Snow White's coffin was, like the winter but never Christmas curse like in Narnia?
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#111

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 2:11 AM

I'm surprised the Doctor hasn't made an appearance yet. A small town where no one can enter, no one can leave, and no one ever ages sounds like the perfect place for a bit of friendly meddling.


Were any of the doors in Jefferson's hat blue and wooden-looking?
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#112

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 11:02 AM

I really hope that the writers sat down and figured out how magic was going to work in the second season. I found the curse completely inconsistent in application for most of the season, only to have it revealed in the last two episodes that Regina has control over not only the false memories, but could also trap Maleficent in her dragon form.

I'm okay with the writers setting whatever arbitrary rules they want -- it's magic! Do what you like! But once they set those rules, I wish they would explain them in a reasonable amount of time and stick with them. It makes it a very frustrating viewing experience for me when I can't figure out the way the universe works and how the characters fit within it.
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#113

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 11:15 AM

I found the curse completely inconsistent in application for most of the season, only to have it revealed in the last two episodes that Regina has control over not only the false memories, but could also trap Maleficent in her dragon form.

Regina has always been shown to have a degree of control over the specific application of the Dark Curse. She made a deal with Rumpelstiltskin which gave him wealth and comfort in the new world after the curse was enacted.
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#114

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 11:18 AM

I really hope that the writers sat down and figured out how magic was going to work in the second season. I found the curse completely inconsistent in application for most of the season, only to have it revealed in the last two episodes that Regina has control over not only the false memories, but could also trap Maleficent in her dragon form.


My understanding is that as the caster of the curse, Regina maintains the ability to control it to a certain extent. She can make superficial changes (such as altering memories) but not structural changes, such as removing the clause that made Emma's death equal automatic breaking of the curse. She likely set Maleficent's Storybrooke form when the curse was cast, and until now she hasn't had any reason to deal with her.
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#115

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 12:29 PM

Regina has always been shown to have a degree of control over the specific application of the Dark Curse. She made a deal with Rumpelstiltskin which gave him wealth and comfort in the new world after the curse was enacted.


Agreed to an extent. The other villainous characters (like the blind witch) have also popped up in respectable potions, which implied to me that the baddies had some level of comfort. And that makes some sense if Regina had a level of control. But keeping a dragon underneath the town library is, in my opinion, a whole new ball game.

She likely set Maleficent's Storybrooke form when the curse was cast, and until now she hasn't had any reason to deal with her.


Again, agreed. But people spent months speculating that nonhuman creatures turned human because there was no magic in our world and therefore no magical creatures here. Now it appears that they're all human because Regina wanted them that way; our world can obviously sustain magical creatures that don't exist here naturally. That's fine, but it's frustrating as hell to me because the writers didn't reveal that information for an entire season. It changes the way I (and I suspect a lot of others) thought the curse worked and revealing it wouldn't have ruined the Maleficent = dragon surprise.

Likewise, they explained in an interview some information about Henry and the curse (which you noted in the spoiler thread, oldandnewfirm) that I feel really should've been revealed on the show.

Obviously, this is all moot because the curse appears to have been broken. I'm just worried that next season we'll get the same uneven exposition.
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#116

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 12:47 PM

I'm okay with the writers setting whatever arbitrary rules they want -- it's magic! Do what you like! But once they set those rules, I wish they would explain them in a reasonable amount of time and stick with them. It makes it a very frustrating viewing experience for me when I can't figure out the way the universe works and how the characters fit within it.


I agree with you. It seems that they keep the details of the curse vague so that they can say that whatever magic-related plot points they come up with fit into it. But it makes any speculation by viewers a waste of time. It's like a mystery novel that doesn't play fair. For instance, the way they have thus far talked about how magic works in our world prior to Rumpel bringing in the purple cloud allows no logical explanation of why August would only start turning to wood when Emma weakened the curse. It should have either happened immediately, when he first betrayed his duty to protect and guide Emma, or after magic returns. But not when it did.

As to the apple retrieval debate, there was no changing of the past. A time traveler's actions become part of the past they traveled to. That apple always vanished from the Enchanted Lands at the moment Jefferson grabbed it, even if it didn't return to time and space until he tossed it to Regina.
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#117

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Posted May 15, 2012 @ 5:06 PM

Continuing conversation about magic from here.

This part always gets to me. Rumple always says that magic has a price and apparently the price of Regina getting the sleeping curse is Henry getting hurt? I don't think they've ever actually shown that. Rumple seems to be able to do whatever magic he wants to on himself with no price. And the wrong person eating the poison apple is not really somoene paying a price. It seems like Rumple just refuses to do things for free (and doesn't believe that other magical beings would, either). What was the price of Bae being offered the opportunity to go to another world? Rumple not going with him? That was his own choice, not a price. I think that when he says that he really means that magic doesn't always work out the way you want it to.


It could be argued that Rumple himself has paid a huge price (becoming the Dark One) that he continues to pay, so magic he uses for himself isn't exactly free. If the Once Upon a Time world has the concept of souls, he's already paid the greatest price.

In Bae's case, the price was giving up his friends and home and risking existence in a strange, new place. The way I see it, the use of magic is wrapped up into karma and the person's intentions. For those wanting to use magic for non-selfish reasons, the consequences may not be dire, or they may directly pay for using magic, such as Bae's acceptance at giving up his home. But for those trying to use magic for selfish reasons end up getting bitten in the rear in ways they didn't expect.
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#118

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Posted May 15, 2012 @ 6:26 PM

It could be argued that Rumple himself has paid a huge price (becoming the Dark One) that he continues to pay, so magic he uses for himself isn't exactly free. If the Once Upon a Time world has the concept of souls, he's already paid the greatest price.

In Bae's case, the price was giving up his friends and home and risking existence in a strange, new place. The way I see it, the use of magic is wrapped up into karma and the person's intentions. For those wanting to use magic for non-selfish reasons, the consequences may not be dire, or they may directly pay for using magic, such as Bae's acceptance at giving up his home. But for those trying to use magic for selfish reasons end up getting bitten in the rear in ways they didn't expect.


Agreed. I don't think Rumple means "price" in terms of equivalent exchange; I think he means it in terms of, "all magic comes with an (usually) unforeseen future consequence to the one using it." The most recent and obvious example is Regina's apple turnover-- she meant it for Emma, but she never considered that Henry would go to Emma's apartment, nor did she consider the possibility that Henry's devotion to breaking the curse would lead him to make the sacrifice of eating something he knew to be poisoned. King Midas is another obvious example-- being able to turn things into gold is AWESOME until you accidentally turn the man your daughter loves into a shiny lawn ornament.

Even the "good" magic on the show has consequences. You already pointed out the consequence for Bae, and we're seeing the consequence for August right now. Jiminy's transformation came with the consequence that in losing his human form he lost the majority of the freedom and capabilities he had as a man. In addition he will only live for as long as Geppetto needs him, which more than likely means that when Geppetto bites the big one, so will Jiminy. Yes, it's what Jiminy asked for, but it still cost him somethhing.
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#119

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Posted May 15, 2012 @ 6:51 PM

Jiminy's transformation came with the consequence that in losing his human form he lost the majority of the freedom and capabilities he had as a man. In addition he will only live for as long as Geppetto needs him, which more than likely means that when Geppetto bites the big one, so will Jiminy. Yes, it's what Jiminy asked for, but it still cost him somethhing.

I really don't think the "only live as long" counts - that's very likely longer than he would have lived otherwise. I really don't think the other counts either - it wasn't an unforseen consequence, it was what he wanted. It's like saying being turned human costs Pinocchio ability to give people splinters.

And, more than those, though, there is true love's kiss. It was magic, for Henry and for Snow. And I can't think of any price that had to be paid for those.
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#120

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Posted May 15, 2012 @ 7:16 PM

[snip] Rumple always says that magic has a price and apparently the price of Regina getting the sleeping curse is Henry getting hurt? I don't think they've ever actually shown that. Rumple seems to be able to do whatever magic he wants to on himself with no price


I don't think Rumple means "price" in terms of equivalent exchange; I think he means it in terms of, "all magic comes with an (usually) unforeseen future consequence to the one using it." [snip]


Yes, I think one way too look at the phrase "All magic has a price" is to simply think of it as a way of saying that magic is not a cure-all but simply a means to an end. Meaning, magic is a tool which ultimately someone chooses to wield, whether for good or evil, and it is that choice that has consequence, i.e., a *price*. A simplistic example is to think of Magic as a hammer. You can choose to either build a house with that hammer or bash someone's head in with it. But either way the choice is yours and therefore the consequences are also something that you will have to face, either directly or indirectly.

Basically, I think "All magic comes with a price" is the Fairytale Land version of the saying "All choices have consequences".

Edited by regularlyleaded, May 15, 2012 @ 7:25 PM.

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