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Full Metal Jousting


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#61

RichardAK

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Posted Mar 21, 2012 @ 9:30 PM

I would debate the point that mail does not help with blunt impacts or piercing, while I admit it was not as effective. In general, it seems like other sources agree with me:
http://www.history-o...ArmorTypes.html
http://en.wikipedia....9#Effectiveness
http://www.legionxxiv.org/loricapage/
This is also my impression of friends who fight in mail shirts for my live steel medieval group. While they attempt in theory to not hit with full force, many of the blows are fairly heavy ones.

I don't know what to say, except that I've seen multiple tests where piercing weapons just went right through chain mail, as if it weren't even there. Mail works by distributing the force of a slash over many rings. That doesn't work with piercing attacks; all the force falls on one or at most a few rings. And blunt force trauma will just be transmitted directly through the mail. So I am highly certain that mail would not protect against blunt lance strikes, or against splinters from broken lances or anything like that.

#62

Krilia

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Posted Mar 22, 2012 @ 1:48 PM

My guess would be that the mail you've seen tested is the less solid variety that many medievalists buy - butted mail, rather than one that has flattened riveted rings mixed with solid ones. I'm not going to deny that a bodkin point arrow could still go through good mail, especially at short distance, but this should still help somewhat. And while it's not as nice as plates for distributing blunt force, it still does soak up energy of impact, distributing much as you're for slashing. At least, I think that's how it works. I'm also not sure how good their gambesons are that they're wearing underneath.

#63

Stanley

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Posted Mar 25, 2012 @ 11:13 PM

Is this series already in the can or is it advancing a week or two ahead of airing? Does anyone know?


I don't know for sure, but I'd guess they're at least cutting the episodes about contemporaneous with airing, since they seem to have decided to burn it off faster. The last couple episodes they crammed two eliminations into one episode, as opposed to the one they'd done before, and tonight's episode had them toss off the last first round match and start the quarter-finals. I was guessing the ratings haven't been great so they're trying to get through the episodes faster.

There's got to be a better way to package the material, though I'm not sure what it is. I feel like we barely know any of the competitors - most of them I can't even name. I don't know too much more about jousting. And the format is necessarily repetitive. I think it's fun to watch, but I'm not sure they're going to draw a wider audience than horsepeople and medieval enthusiasts (as a small microcosm, discussion here has focused almost entirely on the horses and at little on the armor). Seems like they could have gotten more creative with how they staged this competition.

In any event, I really dislike the black team coach, the Australian guy, so for that reason only I was kind of rooting for Pretty Boy Paul. But he's a little douche-y, so I wasn't too torn up about it. Glad to see Little James move on, sorry to see Little Joe get eliminated.

#64

patroo

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Posted Mar 26, 2012 @ 1:14 AM

Since the article I read about the show was dated October, the horses were wearing winter hair and the trees are in fall color, I'm reasonably assured that the filming is long over and everyone has resumed their lives. It is so easy to forget that all of these things took place last fall.

It's nice to see James have a victory, but really, after a while, this sport is just Rock'em Sock'em Robots on horseback. Unless somebody comes off or a horse acts up, it's the same old drill over and over. Smack. Crack. Again!

I think they're just speeding up showing the matches because they've covered the training stuff and figure that most of the audience gets the general idea.

I agree that the competitors are hard to remember. I'm only familiar with James due to his father's involvement with combined driving (driving a four-in-hand to a carriage in dressage, a cone course, and cross country trails with obstacles to negotiate at a good speed). The rest of them are only noticeable for that minute or two they're on screen without armor. Suited up, they're like so many Star Wars storm troopers, and have pretty much the same amount of personality.

#65

FakeLocke

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Posted Mar 26, 2012 @ 4:01 PM

Well, since it seems like all this stuff took place months ago, it's probably silly for me to bitch about the format of the 2nd round (quarterfinal) matches.

But to patroo's point, shouldn't the jousters be able to begin establishing a persona of their own now, and dump the random red/black designations (maybe even re-pick teams for purposes of practice). After all, the whole reason for the split teams was ROUND ONE only, and the matchups that came from that. Imagine if all eight of one color won their first matches... what then?

It would go a long way to personalizing the matches if the guys could personalize their armor/helmet/lance colors. Heck, even race horses get to wear different colored silks so we can tell them apart. The only three guys I can name are Rope (cool rodeo name), James (aka "Little James"), and that ass Mike (aka LOSER). Once they're suited up, you could be substituting stuntmen into the armor, and we'd have no way to know.

I see this being targeted to the MMA audiences who might want their violence mixed with some horsemanship and medievalism. It would be more fun (though less authentic) to have more trash-talking and less of the chivalry. I can't imagine medieval jousters saying "He's a good friend. It should be fun out there." Keep it a little less frivolous than pro wrestling, but generate more emotion than poker. The goal is, after all, to smash the other guy so he falls off his horse.

#66

trojan69

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Posted Mar 26, 2012 @ 7:52 PM

Sooooooooooo repetitive.

TPTB can't even maintain the contrived team concept. They would be much better off having smaller competitions with fewer guys involved week-to-week. I am also bothered by the fact that TPTB get to engineer whatever match-ups among the winners they please.

I'd be fine with a skills competition minus the armour where horsemanship would truly count.

#67

patroo

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Posted Mar 26, 2012 @ 10:04 PM

Contrived is right. I didn't even think of this as being in the competitive reality category because, to me, it was an exhibition, not a true competition. Now if these guys were running a course like the quintain trainer, with eight or ten rings to spear, on a zigzag course, or with obstacles like cavaletti, now we're talking both skill and horsemanship.

I know there are ring spearing events, but they're usually in a straight line. Yes, that is a departure from the Renaissance tradition, but the show as it exists now is barely recognizable as classical jousting. I believe those chaps got up when unhorsed and finished the match with short swords. That could add an element of interest to this.

To do the ring spearing truly right, we'd need one of those laid-back British announcers that do the horse trials. "Penelope has successfully speared ring 1...oh, and Kipper has run out at the ditch in front of ring 2...going to have penalty points there...good recovery...she's lost her concentration there when that little dog ran out in front of her...3 and 4 successfully bagged...the bullfinch is coming up...Kipper is starting to stick...he has refused and sent her flying...presumably she'll continue as soon as someone catches Kipper..."

#68

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Posted Mar 27, 2012 @ 12:30 PM

Part of the problem is that a real medieval joust would last days, not weeks, and you'd see many knights ride every day. It also wouldn't overlap with training. The knights would show up as ready as they were going to be. (Theoretically, the joust itself was training for actual combat.) Here, because they are overlapping training with competition, the whole thing has been dragged out much longer than a real tourney would have been.

On top of which, in a real medieval tournament, you'd only have teams for the melee, not for individual tilting. And I don't think they will be bringing the melee back any time soon.

I think this show would have worked better as a special, maybe a multi-part special, of some sort. Maybe have one episode, lasting maybe two hours, focusing on the training, and letting us meet the jousters and get to know them; also, give all the knights distinctive armor with coats-of-arms, etc. Then do all the preliminary jousts in one two-hour episode, and so forth. Also, get a live audience, so you'll have a real feel for the excitement of a medieval joust.

Also, make the rules truer to historical jousting. Get rid of the gridded grand-guards and the point system. Let them hit anywhere on the other guy's armor (also, give them shields), and let them tilt until one is unhorsed. First man unhorsed loses. If no one is unhorsed after a given number of tilts, only then let the judges decide. That would be a much more exciting format than the one they have adopted.

#69

FakeLocke

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Posted Mar 28, 2012 @ 1:45 PM

I think the show needs to figure out what it's trying to be, and who their target market is.

If they're trying to appeal to the medieval-life, Renaissance Faire enthusiasts, they're never going to make it. That audience is just too specialized and too detail-oriented to accept a modern spin on jousting. Plus, that audience is way too small to sustain a show on a national network. I certainly would not tune in for a rings competition.

If they're trying to appeal to the beer-swilling MMA couch-potatoes (a much larger demographic), they need to emphasize the impacts and violence of the jousts (helmet-cams, horse-cams, force meters on the grid, etc.), as well as the relatively quick turnarounds without the cutaway to the Joustmaster explaining the scoring explanation each time. Even Madden doesn't diagram every freakin' play for the audience. A quick replay of the moment of impact with a "This is why John got a point for a touch. He needs to lean in and drive through next time to break his lance." would suffice.

Even a quick word with the jouster during the turnaround "You just missed that time, what do you need to do next time to score the point?" would add some real-time interest.

#70

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Posted Mar 29, 2012 @ 1:44 PM

It doesn't help that I feel I know the five featured jousting horses better than I know the contestants, which can't be a good thing as far as becoming invested in the program and the results go. At least I know the horses' names - Gulliver, Jefferson, Praetorian, Superman and Crispin - and generally what they look like and their various personalities, which is more than I can say for the men. (I say five horses because the sixth horse available was never chosen and I can never remember his name!)

Edited by scootypuffjr, Mar 29, 2012 @ 1:48 PM.


#71

Ailiana

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Posted Mar 30, 2012 @ 4:17 PM

Aren't there actually 8 horses available? I seem to remember thinking it was odd that only half the horses could be ridden in the actually competition, and there are sixteen total.

#72

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Posted Mar 30, 2012 @ 4:45 PM

It would go a long way to personalizing the matches if the guys could personalize their armor/helmet/lance colors. Heck, even race horses get to wear different colored silks so we can tell them apart. The only three guys I can name are Rope (cool rodeo name), James (aka "Little James"), and that ass Mike (aka LOSER). Once they're suited up, you could be substituting stuntmen into the armor, and we'd have no way to know.


I agree. I wanted to like this show, but I have no one to root for because I don't know the contestants. The contestants are referred to by their first names, but their armor has their last names on the back. If it were easier to identify them in armor, that would help.

Also, I think there needed to be more of the guys hanging out or interacting with each other. (But I think that goes back to what someone else was saying, they don't know what kind of a show they want this to be.) I like the jousting parts, but when I watch reality tv, it's to watch real people doing stuff, seeing how they deal with new people, stress, challenges, etc. And having said that, I'm not sure if these guys would be all that interesting to watch; they are all kind of bland. But it was mentioned that one of the guys was the boss of some of the others and that could lead to conflict. There could be more conflict between the guys with the "tougher" careers like rodeo and firefighting vs. the guys with the "theatrical" careers like stage jousting and show-jumping. Or conflict between the guys who have been eliminated vs the guys who are still in the competition. I don't know exactly how to fix it, but I need to know the guys a little better so I can have a couple to root for and a couple to root against.

#73

scootypuffjr

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 6:57 AM

Aren't there actually 8 horses available? I seem to remember thinking it was odd that only half the horses could be ridden in the actually competition, and there are sixteen total.



Perhaps I wasn't paying as much attention as I thought - I only remembered six. But if there were eight horses, then they didn't ever choose three of them - I'm nearly positive they only used the ones I named. Perhaps someone else can remember better than I. One of the Joshes chose a beast called Paladin for his mount in the quarter finals or whatever they were, but I don't think Paladin was an option before.

I thought I noticed that the horses don't seem to wear full armor or eye-shields when they are practicing actual jousting. Why is that? Too heavy? It seems to me they could be just as easily hurt in practice as in the official joust, and the men wear their armor while practicing. Why not the horses?

Edited by scootypuffjr, Mar 31, 2012 @ 6:58 AM.


#74

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 11:00 AM

Hubby and I love this show. We're not Ren Faire folks or MMA fans and we've never been to Medieval Times. Last week's double unhorsing brought us both out of our seats! I think it's interesting to see a new (old) sport.

That being said - I can't tell any of the competitors apart either, and it might be more compelling if we did.

#75

freedomrider

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Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 12:14 AM

This has to be the worst reality show on the tube. This is never going to be a real sport. Has any horses been hurt on this show yet? I couldn't care less about the humans but the animals don't have a choice to participate.

#76

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Posted Apr 6, 2012 @ 10:00 PM

I don't think its the worst reality show on the air, its not the best, but its not the worst by any means. I don't watch alot of reality programming and I was skeptical about this one. A friend of mine was pretty enthused about it so I thought I'd give it a try. Yes, there are some problems but I'd rather watch Full Metal Jooooosting than American Idol or one of the way too numerous cooking shows.

#77

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 1:12 AM

I watched the final episode because nothing better was on, and they'd marketed the hell out of it to people who watch Professional Bull Riding (I think the thought went, bull riding is dangerous, jousting is dangerous, people who watch bull riding will surely watch jousting!).

This was not very exciting, I'm afraid. Besides the "level best, my daughter, my daughter" guy, who I figured was going to win since he had a "story," I don't know why any of them would really want to do this show, and I don't think it's going to bring "joooosting" back into the mainstream or anywhere close. Other people have covered the numerous ways this could have been made more interesting, but it doesn't seem terribly likely there will be another season.

Edited by iscoffy, Apr 16, 2012 @ 1:14 AM.


#78

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 7:33 AM

I really hoped that Josh, the "for my daughter" guy would have gotten knocked on his ass. No, buddy, this is not for your daughter, its for your tremendous, Trump sized ego. Terribly disappointing.

#79

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 4:22 PM

I really hoped that Josh, the "for my daughter" guy would have gotten knocked on his ass. No, buddy, this is not for your daughter, its for your tremendous, Trump sized ego. Terribly disappointing.


Man, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that.

#80

Krilia

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 4:34 PM

I preferred Josh Knowles - he was funny, with occasional biting humor, while I felt that Matt Stiltman, I think it was? was perhaps a bit on the dull side. They were both good competitors though, and I was glad to see them make the final match. Josh Avery was so terribly bitter about not making it - it was awful every time he was on the screen.

I thought that the red team choice for who participated in the loser's joust was fair - he really did get screwed over by being sent out before his chance. I would have preferred Jack to Rope, however. Regardless, that match was one of the most dull I've seen on the show, which was unfortunate.

#81

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 9:34 PM

Josh K. very much grated on my nerves. If he wasn't going on ad nauseum about his daughter, (here's a clue, buddy, no one is taking food out of her mouth, or money out of her pocket more than you. You need money, get a better paying job) I couldn't get over how every time he'd make some ultra dramatic statement, he'd just deadpan it. Sorry, Josh, your size and supposedly awesome jousting ability didn't really impress me any.

#82

rasalas

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 1:35 PM

they'd marketed the hell out of it to people who watch Professional Bull Riding (I think the thought went, bull riding is dangerous, jousting is dangerous, people who watch bull riding will surely watch jousting!).


I think the thought went, Full Metal Jousting features professional bull riders (including Rope Myers in the $25,000 consolation joust), so fans of that sport might enjoy seeing them do something different.

Edited by rasalas, Apr 17, 2012 @ 1:39 PM.