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Full Metal Jousting


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#31

Character Zero

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Posted Mar 7, 2012 @ 10:31 AM

So why did they pick the red guy to be the replacement? He said that he wasn't comfortable with the horse and at least 2 others also volunteered (but in a "if no one else will" kind of way). And then when its obvious there is an issue with the horse, they switch it out right at the end but the VO tells us they can switch at any time. Why not switch in the middle, like when they change the lances, or maybe start with a different horse altogether? It seemed like this was manufactured fro both drama (guy riding horse he shouldn't be on) and to educate the viewer (rules on changing out the horse).

So the black team guy was the boss of the read team guy? And the red team guy is being described as a theatrical jouster, but the black team guy was described as a philosophy student? Do they not want to give away how many of these guys are theatrical jousters?

#32

Nena

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Posted Mar 7, 2012 @ 1:23 PM

Do they not want to give away how many of these guys are theatrical jousters?


They screwed up on that,too. During all his talking heads, his title was "philosophy student", but when they put up the side by side screen that compares the combined weight, they both said theatrical jouster. I can't remember, though - was there anyone else who had a completely non-equestrian title? I think he was the only one who wasn't listed as theatrical jouster, but also not listed as a trainer/competitor/stunt rider.

#33

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Posted Mar 7, 2012 @ 9:13 PM

McKinley from last week is a firefighter. That was why he was thinking about leaving--he was afraid he would get hurt and not be able to go back to his real job, and was weighing the risk/reward now that he had been demoted to alternate.

#34

Stanley

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Posted Mar 8, 2012 @ 8:29 AM

McKinley from last week is a firefighter.


Actually I think he's a riding instructor and horse trainer. One of the others is a firefighter.

#35

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Posted Mar 8, 2012 @ 3:53 PM

McKinley said he was a 3-day eventer. I can understand him not wanting to risk injury. Eventing is very, very difficult on the body already.

I swear, some of those Medieval Times guys look like the guys from the MT in Dallas. I've been there a couple times. :D

#36

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Posted Mar 11, 2012 @ 10:39 PM

Pretty good show tonight although I'm not too sure what to think about Landan punching the horse. I'm kind of curious as to whether that was manufactured drama for the cameras. I was glad to see Rope do well. It was also nice to see the pep talk that Shane gave to Mike about having him sticking around and why he was picked first.

#37

HiHorse

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Posted Mar 11, 2012 @ 11:24 PM

Why? Why do they keep choosing Praetorian? He's burned out on this! Only Rope's experience with similar horses (burned out steer wrestling horses) held him together, and even then it was ugly.
Landon needs to DIAF. His excuse was weak, "well when your horse is 17 hands..." BULLSHIT. I'm glad they kicked him off.
Now, FMJ Powers That Be: do the right thing by Praetorian: retirement home. Love, room to move around free, grass to eat, an occasional slow trail ride. He'd be so much happier.
I hereby volunteer to take him (or Crispin, hint hint)!

Edited by HiHorse, Mar 11, 2012 @ 11:26 PM.


#38

patroo

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Posted Mar 12, 2012 @ 12:56 AM

The horses are pretty sour. We aren't shown whether there is any flat work being done, or riding out to relax. Crispin is the only one that appears to be broke. All of the horses are anticipating big time, and the ones in plain snaffles just bull their way down the list when they're ready. One is wearing a kimberwicke, which is still very mild, encouraging the rider to haul on the reins and the horse to haul on the bit.

Insert green rider and repetitive situations with impacts that jar the horse - it isn't a lot, but it certainly isn't something to look forward to with delight. Rope claims to be a good rider, but many cowboys, particularly rodeo cowboys, are not really good riders. They are good at their particular niche, and Rope's niche is throwing himself off of a horse onto the back and neck of a running steer. He may have a lot of other riding experience, but it probably doesn't include schooling a spoiled drafter in a competitive situation. Even if he wanted to do some flat work, it might not have been possible or allowed. There are horsemen, and there are cowboys, and they are not necessarily the same people.

James Fairclough has the experience and the skills to ride any of them, and I hope he's successful in continuing higher in the contest. Even so, he's getting hauled around a bit at times, too.

They wanted big flashy drafties for the tradition, and the momentum they offer, but they'd have been better off finding two dozen Pony Club packers like Crispin. No fuss, no drama, just goes to work. Nobody gets hurt and everyone has a good time. I have read that some of these horses are rescues, and I applaud that.

#39

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Posted Mar 12, 2012 @ 2:10 AM

Rope claims to be a good rider, but many cowboys, particularly rodeo cowboys, are not really good riders.


He rode better and looser in the joust, but in practice all he did was saw on the horse's mouth, which made everything worse. Maybe the armor makes it difficult to use weight and leg, but I see a lot of attempts to muscle these horses around with the bit. Praetorian should be taken out of the competition, given a good rest, and retrained from the ground up. But given the rampant swagger, I bet the opposite happens - he keeps getting picked because the next guy thinks he's the one who can ride him, or he wants the toughest horse, or whatever the hell. Praetorian has fine ground manners, which says to me that he is not difficult to handle by nature. It's situational and the green riders they throw up there are making it worse.

I could forgive Landon if that punch had been an automatic and thoughtless reaction to pain. But it clearly wasn't, and his defense of it as "necessary" was ridiculous. I'm a small woman, and my feet have been stepped on by a seventeen-hand horse or two and somehow I've managed to never punch a horse in the face. (That's what shoving is for.)

I'm glad to see Joe back in the competition, and the one Medieval Times guy with the reddish hair (...Josh?) who won the first joust is growing on me. Still rooting for Wee Fairclough, though.

#40

Starrla

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Posted Mar 12, 2012 @ 8:50 AM

So long, Landon, you jerk. I have had my feet stepped on 1,000 times in my horsey life, and never once have I punched a horse in the face. WTF?? What a bastard. I'm glad they came down on him immediately.

I agree with you guys, I think Praetorian needs some time off. He doesn't seem like a bad guy, just wound up.

Hi, Crispin! You gorgeous little thing, you. *heart*

#41

Penthilisea

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Posted Mar 12, 2012 @ 10:10 PM

Wow, I am 100% onboard with the summary dismissal of Landon. Punching a horse ANYWHERE is not ok, and on the head? Another level of bad- obvious to anyone who has ever had to try and work with a BIG headshy horse.

I think this might actually also explain the mild bits in use- anything more severe could be damaging to the horses when a newbie rider hauls on it. Not saying this is a good solution, but I kind of understand the thinking behind it.

#42

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Posted Mar 13, 2012 @ 10:15 AM

It was nice to see Zero Tolerance Policy used by someone who actually meant it. I thought for a moment that Landon was going to be told that if he did it again he'd be out.

I also got the feeling that Rope was trying to muscle Praetorian into doing what he wanted, and I'm barely above the average person in terms of riding ability. Praetorian is a lovely horse; I wonder how many of the horses were initially selected due to them looking like what you'd expect a joust horse to look like?

#43

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Posted Mar 13, 2012 @ 11:57 AM

Without actually being a rider, I'd guess that there aren't a lot of horses out there capable of carrying 220 lbs of rider, 80 lbs of armor, and 30 lbs of saddle at a full gallop 8-10 straight passes with little or no down time in between.

There aren't many horses who were trained to handle those specific needs in their day-to-day work life. Probably most of these are old Medieval Times horses, or are being trained specifically for jousting (either for this show, a future jousting league, or faire/restaurant jousting).

And they should've held Landon in place and let the horse rear up and punch him in the face... y'know, just to even it out.

#44

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Posted Mar 13, 2012 @ 7:21 PM

Catching up on old episodes. Haven't seen Landon punch the horse yet, but I'm sure I'll cringe. Landon is pretty cute though, but that's horrible.

And the host's accent really, really bothers me.

#45

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Posted Mar 14, 2012 @ 9:41 PM

I just watched the fifth episode today, and I was annoyed by one of Prewitt's comments at the end, specifically when he said that "I was driving the 1978 Buick and he was driving the 2011 Ferrari." That bothered me, because it sounded as though he was blaming Crispin for his loss. I thought that that was pretty ridiculous, because, one, it was very obvious that he lost because he couldn't put his lance on the target, not because Crispin wasn't fast enough, and, two, Crispin has shown himself to be easily one of the most skilled and professional competitors in this tourney. I thought it was pretty unsportsmanlike for him to blame his teammate, especially considering that said teammate was clearly the more skilled of the two.

#46

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Posted Mar 15, 2012 @ 8:03 AM

Is it me or does it seem like they pick Crispin and Preatorian nine times out of ten for the competition? I'd been looking forward to seeing another horse being used when Wee little James was going to ride and then when Rope was practicing.

I too was annoyed with Prewitt's comment about a '78 Buick compared to a '11 Ferrari. '78 Buick, depending on the model and engine was a hell of a car. Dude, admit it, you sucked big time because you had crappy aim.

#47

HiHorse

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Posted Mar 15, 2012 @ 9:49 AM

Exactly. Crispin did everything he could. Only thing he couldn't do was to aim the lance. What a twatwaffle!

#48

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Posted Mar 18, 2012 @ 5:13 PM

Especially after the last two episodes, I am convinced that part of the problem here is that the riders and horses don't really know each other. They practice together for a day or two, and then compete. Most of the riders have been riding other horses the whole time. I really think that if the horses knew and trusted their riders, and the riders were confident in the rapport with the horses, that the jousts would be better all around. There have been a lot of issues that are really about the lack of connection between horse and rider.

And I was appalled by the punch. Horses don't really want to stand on human feet--they are squichy and unstable and don't feel good under hooves. A little shove to his shoulder would have gotten the horse off his foot with no fuss. That roundhouse punch was completely over the line.

I liked that the ring practice was something Fairclough could do as well, even if he can't wear armor again yet.

#49

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Posted Mar 19, 2012 @ 1:06 AM

After all of the injuries tonight, they should retitle this so-called competition, "The Groin Cup."

The competitor who withdrew made the right decision. There was no guarantee that he'd be able to progress in the competition, particularly as he'd be subconsciously, if not consciously, protecting himself. He is young and has a career and family to think about. Ending up maimed or injured severely would not be a good trade-off.

It was nice to see some different horses. Gulliver is a very honest horse with a surprising amount of speed for his size. Somebody has put some good training into him.

#50

HiHorse

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Posted Mar 19, 2012 @ 11:54 AM

Is this series already in the can or is it advancing a week or two ahead of airing? Does anyone know?

#51

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Posted Mar 19, 2012 @ 7:13 PM

First, the good news: It definitely was nice to see Gulliver and more of Jefferson.

Now, my less favorable impression. I thought the black team as a whole showed very poor sportsmanship by not cheering for Mike. Look, everyone who gets eliminated wants another chance. I do think it's an interesting coincidence that the two guys who have gotten back in so far were the two guys who went to the host and said that they were thinking about leaving. But it was still the host's decision, and he claims to be basing his decision on how well each man performed in his losing joust, which seems credible to me. So all in all, I thought the black team was acting like a bunch of kindergartners.

Also, I thought Mike got screwed over royally by the judges. That score should have been 12 to 8. The judges should have consulted the slow-motion replay, which would have made it very clear that Mike did drop the reins. And that lance was not broken. It is possible that if the score had been closer going into the final tilts that Mike would have performed better, but even if not, the score should definitely have been closer.

All that being said, I was disappointed in Mike's performance. As far as I could tell, he rode no better in the lists than in his first tilt, so I was not very impressed.

#52

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Posted Mar 19, 2012 @ 8:22 PM

To make it fair, they should let all of the guys who lost VOTE on who gets to go back in. Give a couple of other votes to the coaches and the host, and you'd at least get a fair representation of who has the respect of the riders. By putting Mike back into the mix after he whined, you're basically giving the baby an extra chance.

And now Mike has lost twice. Rather than randomly putting guys back in, they should have had a consolation bracket where first round losers all have to fight in their own little bracket before getting a chance to get back in.

#53

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Posted Mar 20, 2012 @ 5:14 AM

I was extremely turned off by the behavior of the black team. With three injuries of various types this episode alone, and this being the second fill-in already, they all have a shot at getting back in. But be adults about how you act! I would like to imagine that there was a talking to about it, but I am sure that neither the coachs nor Shane did that.

I think Tom was thrown off in his joust by having injured two of his teammates (no matter how much they tried to tell him it wasn't his fault, I am sure it still felt like his fault to him). And I think Mike was thrown off by the rein dropping issue in the first pass.

Gulliver rocked it though, a great horse, and it was a good to see other horses used. I like the comment that he was just about as fast as Preatorian without the drama, but then he seemed fine on Preatorian as well.

#54

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Posted Mar 20, 2012 @ 9:12 AM

Paul appeared to using this weird technique where he'd drop too soon, aim poorly, and then somehow hit the mark when he somehow managed to readjust. ( and knocking the other guy's lance out of the way when he did it ) The host seems shocked that Paul was actually winning.

Tom the "nut slayer". Heh. One thing does concern me. If he's missing by wide enough margin to hit the other rider there. It's only a few more inches south and he's likely to hit the horse.

Brian made the right move. The host just doesn't get it. Perhaps he can afford to take off the time off required for a long recovery. But the contestants can't.

Mike should leave the competition. He simply isn't that good a jouster. His chances of injury far exceed winning the smaller loser's joust award. And now that he's been branded an outsider he simply doesn't have a reason to remain.

Edited by Booklord, Mar 20, 2012 @ 9:13 AM.


#55

Krilia

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Posted Mar 20, 2012 @ 9:47 AM

I don't think that the Black Team were just offended by their teammate being overlooked by bringing Mike back instead. I think they were offended because no one likes Mike. I'm surprised we don't have a clip of him saying "I'm not here to make friends!"

Something that might help armor wise: give these guys mail shirts under their armor, or at least mail skirts. And, while you're at it, give them helms that fit right, okay? There should not be impacts that result in the helm tearing holes in their heads.

#56

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Posted Mar 20, 2012 @ 12:10 PM

I think what would have helped would have been if there had been clear rules announced in advance, so that everyone would already know who gets to back in if someone is forced to leave. If the rule is that the loser with the highest score in his last tilt gets to come back in first, then that should have been announced in advance, so that everyone would know what the order is. I think a lot of the resentment came from the fact that the decision appears to have been somewhat subjective.

I thought the host sounded ridiculous the way he was ripping on Paul's performance, Booklord. Whatever he was doing was clearly working, but the host really seemed to have this idea that there is only one right way.

Krilia, mail would probably not help very much; it only really helps against slashing attacks. It does almost nothing to protect against piercing attacks or blunt force, which are what they have to worry about. It was just be adding a lot of weight and discomfort. I also don't think that helm-sizing is the issue. In the middle ages, knights were injured and killed in jousts; it goes with the territory.

#57

patroo

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Posted Mar 20, 2012 @ 2:49 PM

A story about Shane Adams, the host, and owner of all of the horses:
http://www.zap2it.co...,0,813234.story

By the way, Crispin is an American Cream, a rare American draft horse. He looks a bit different than the American Creams I've seen from a breeder in Central Oregon - theirs are more rawboned and lanky, while he looks more like a Haflinger. This is the only American native draft breed of horse, and his color is champagne. If you like Crispin, check out his relatives. He himself is certainly the perfect "husband horse."

For the non-horse people, a husband horse is something that you can put a novice rider aboard and know they're going to have a reasonably good time and survive, as opposed to the fire-breathing rocket that you might be riding. Putting spouses on those doesn't work well - it isn't working too well here, either, as witnessed by Praetorian.

I thought I'd seen Praetorian take some uneven walk steps, and someone else noted that he appeared slightly lame, which may have contributed to his charginess, as in "let's get it over with, puny human!" He might also have taken a bad step at just that moment, but is basically fine.

Some of these horses are rescues. If the jousting circuit catches on, this will provide a home for the unwanted heavy horses - however, according to another researcher, the true medieval jousting destrier horse was of average size, in the 14-15 hand range, riding type rather than a hairy tank. Supposedly participants showed off by vaulting aboard their horses in full armor without using the stirrup (or a mounting block).

Perhaps Paul's unorthodox lance technique makes it harder for a better jouster to counter - he's unpredictable compared to the others.

#58

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Posted Mar 20, 2012 @ 3:43 PM

Perhaps Paul's unorthodox lance technique makes it harder for a better jouster to counter - he's unpredictable compared to the others.

Perhaps, but then I would say that they are not really better jousters.

#59

Ailiana

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Posted Mar 20, 2012 @ 7:19 PM

The thing about Paul's lance placement though, is that while it worked against Mike, it didn't really feel like he knew where it was going, and if he hadn't tangled with Mike's lance each time, he wouldn't have hit. In fact, I think (and I didn't check this again so I may be wrong, but this was my impression) that the only times he hit was when he hit Mike's lance first. An opponent who is able to keep the lances in line may not give him that ricochet effect and no hits.

#60

Krilia

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Posted Mar 21, 2012 @ 12:08 PM

Krilia, mail would probably not help very much; it only really helps against slashing attacks. It does almost nothing to protect against piercing attacks or blunt force, which are what they have to worry about. It was just be adding a lot of weight and discomfort. I also don't think that helm-sizing is the issue. In the middle ages, knights were injured and killed in jousts; it goes with the territory.


I would debate the point that mail does not help with blunt impacts or piercing, while I admit it was not as effective. In general, it seems like other sources agree with me:
http://www.history-o...ArmorTypes.html
http://en.wikipedia....)#Effectiveness
http://www.legionxxiv.org/loricapage/
This is also my impression of friends who fight in mail shirts for my live steel medieval group. While they attempt in theory to not hit with full force, many of the blows are fairly heavy ones.

In regard to the helms, the wounds they have taken imply that there are projections inside the helms. They need to either create helms without these projections, or they need to size them such that interior padding can protect them.

For joust as a sport, the majority of deaths can be attributed more to freak accidents, such as splinters in helm slits, I believe.