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3-14: "Dangerous Liaisons" 2012.02.09 (recap)


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#301

Denari06

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Posted Feb 14, 2012 @ 9:20 PM

I guess it's a matter of perception because I don't view Stefan as smug or self-righteous anymore. First season Stefan I could see it. But now all I see is a Stefan trying to hold his head above the water. From PW portrayal, I basically see him as almost always falling apart nowadays. Kind of how I see Damon, only that Damon carries it better without seeming as tortured. But I think Damon is easier to break, or to push in the wrong direction, while Stefan will stay tormented a bit longer. I actually think they are so similar, I wish that the writers would focus on their brotherly relationship.

Some of my favorite scenes have been when they are together and in one way or another talking through their issues. Or I guess fighting through them.

#302

DeadlyEuphoric

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Posted Feb 14, 2012 @ 9:39 PM

I get that Stefan snapped Damon's neck but Damon allowed Michael to snapped Stefan's neck.

In the Mikael incident, Mikael, quite unexpectedly, attacked Stefan and fed from him before Damon could do anything about it and it is not like Damon could do a thing about it as the man was the Papa Original that even Klaus feared -he is much more powerful than Damon. It wasn't something Damon did himself or plan or want. In this incident, Stefan attacked Damon and broke his neck for his (and Elena's) purpose. For me, it kind of makes the two instances different. I am not a fan of the brothers always getting in physical hussles in general anyway but seeing one "kill" the other one was quite disturbing, even if one knew it wasn't going to take. It further underlines the differences between human and vampire sensibilities I guess in that they seem to have a "you are going to come back to life, so what?" attitude about "killing" people who are unkillable, but I do hope what happened with Alaric has made Damon realize it is not OK to "temprorarily kill" people you claim to love and care for because you don't want to continue an argument with them and need to get them out of your way for the moment or are angry, so, even if we have to suffer "Damon staking Stefan" scenes in future we won't have to suffer another "brother snaps his brother's neck" scene. And that this will be the first and last time we see Stefan do it. I do wish Damon would give Stefan a "dick move" line about it though, just like he did when Stefan threw a letter opener at him and ruined one of his favorite T-shirts. Not a whiny, bitchy comment for it is just not the Damon-way, but that would work. Damon did just not long ago was told this is quite an unacceptable behavior, after all and he always gets preached on the "100 ways to be a better man and less vampire, more human" by Stefan. Wouldn't hurt if he for once pointed out how something was not really cool.

As for Stefan, the main problem with him, for me, when he was "good" was his smug, preachy, always putting Damon down, self-righteousness and when he is "bad" it remains the same even though he is in no way at a place to be so judgemental. What is sad is, Damon can call him out when he is being a judgemental ass to others -like in the dinner scene with the Originals- but when Stefan is being the same to him, and is saying thing to purposefully hurt him and demean him, he remains silent, and seems to agree with him. It is a sign of how low Damon's self-worth is, and it is a vicious circle as I think Stefan's constant belittling of him is one of the reasons for it. When they were human, it was their father who did it. In their vampire life, it is Stefan who continues the tradition. I feel, in many ways, Stefan continues to be the "father's boy". And I do feel it falls on Damon to somehow break the cycle, by stopping to take this crap treatment anymore, so that there is some hope for Stefan to improve on his own behavior and look deep inside to his own faults and Damon/Stefan to become a more functional relationship. This is why I was happy to see Damon furious at the way he was treated this episode and turn his back and walk out on all of them as it seems he doesn't have THAT low an opinion of himself anymore and demands better treatment. I do hope it sticks and he stands up to both Elena and Stefan.

Edited by DeadlyEuphoric, Feb 14, 2012 @ 9:41 PM.


#303

vgerd

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Posted Feb 14, 2012 @ 10:18 PM

What is sad is, Damon can call him out when he is being a judgemental ass to others -like in the dinner scene with the Originals- but when Stefan is being the same to him, and is saying thing to purposefully hurt him and demean him, he remains silent, and seems to agree with him. It is a sign of how low Damon's self-worth is, and it is a vicious circle as I think Stefan's constant belittling of him is one of the reasons for it. When they were human, it was their father who did it. In their vampire life, it is Stefan who continues the tradition. I feel, in many ways, Stefan continues to be the "father's boy". And I do feel it falls on Damon to somehow break the cycle, by stopping to take this crap treatment anymore, so that there is some hope for Stefan to improve on his own behavior and look deep inside to his own faults and Damon/Stefan to become a more functional relationship. This is why I was happy to see Damon furious at the way he was treated this episode and turn his back and walk out on all of them as it seems he doesn't have THAT low an opinion of himself anymore and demands better treatment. I do hope it sticks and he stands up to both Elena and Stefan.


Exactly. I don't believe the brothers' dysfunctional relationship can all be laid at Katherine's door. It started with Giuseppe, and I do think Stefan perpetuates the cycle by continually refusing to believe in his brother. He has said in the past that he wants to believe Damon can be better, but then he says things like he doesn't think his brother is deserving of Elena's love, once again belittling him and dealing yet another blow to Damon's self esteem. I too hope Damon sticks to his guns this time and continues to distance himself from both of them for a while.

#304

Kara1940

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Posted Feb 14, 2012 @ 11:34 PM

Reading the last couple pages of comments it seems the Damon vs Stefan feud continues. I think this episode hit home a lot the issues between the brothers, and how they choose to deal with their differences, especially when it comes to Elena.

Regarding Stefan's cold hearted jackassery this episode (and pretty much all season), I think it's a form of self preservation for him at the moment. That and I just have to add I for one like seeing this side of Stefan for now, it makes him a bit more interesting the same way Damon is when he acts out. I get why Stefan is acting out and is so closed off with Elena. Guy was pretty much blackmailed and manipulated into a murder spree, and was then mind raped by Klaus repeatedly to obey and turn off his humanity and hurt Elena. There is a lot of pain and grief there that it's going to take time for him to process. Add to that he's reliving the whole Damon/Katherine/Stefan fiasco again with having to watch the woman he loves and his brother grow closer, who wouldn't be hurt by that? I think Stefan is a little justified in his acting out. And IMO PW's performance is nailing it, subtly portraying the pain Stefan is holding at bay.

When Stefan says that Elena is better than Damon, or that she is better off without him, I notice he is quick to add himself to that as well, he no longer feels like he is worthy of Elena. And IMO it's sort of true, everything Stefan has done to hurt Elena Damon has done and worse. The difference is Stefan attempts to distance and protect Elena from his pain, whereas Damon continues to pursue her without much concern of the violence and hurt has has inflicted on her. Stefan wants more for Elena even if it is not him, whereas Damon just wants her regardless of what might be best for her. When it comes down to it, I much prefer Elena's scenes with Stefan because he allows her her own agency, I much prefer independent Elena over the damsel in distress she always seems to be with Damon. Even if she is making bad decisions and making mistakes, I prefer that over Damon and his over bearing protection. If the show wants to get this viewer on board with this Delena ship, the man handling we saw in this episode has to stop.

IMO I think Stefan's judgment of Damon the first two seasons was somewhat justified. I think Stefan did earn his own redemption committing himself to his humanity and a diet of animal blood, with it seems pretty dramatic relapses. But Stefan always seemed to be pursing his redemption. Damon chose to hold on to his anger and turn his back on Stefan, promising him an eternity of misery. Why wouldn't Stefan want his brother to value the humanity he himself tried so hard to hold on to? Not that I don't understand where Damon is coming from a lot of the time when he acts out, he is volatile and emotional just as Stefan can be when he is down and hurt. Stefan seems to takes things to extremes, while Damon tends to be more comfortable in his moral ambiguity. But at the end of the day, I find this dynamic makes me respect and feel for Stefan more, though I do have a soft spot for Damon even if I don't always buy into his angst and man pain. I think that both brothers have earned a little mistrust at the end of the day, and hard feelings in their relationship, but it's part of what makes their relationship so interesting. The most important relationship on the show IMHO.

Edited by Kara1940, Feb 14, 2012 @ 11:55 PM.


#305

ElectricBoogalo

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Posted Feb 15, 2012 @ 1:42 AM

On Esther's spell, I think it would be so so compelling to have them de-vampirized rather than dead.

One of the reasons I don't want to see this is that they could still have someone revamp them. Sure, they lose out on the accumulated strength that they have after being vampires for hundreds of years, and being able to compel other vamps, but they could still go on living essentially the same immortal lives they had before.

If they could be devamped without ever being able to be revamped, I might be okay with not killing them off, but I have no doubt that would result in Klaus coming up with some hare brained scheme to use doppelganger blood to revamp them somehow.

One of the reasons I like seeing Caroline with Klaus is I want to see her figure out what being a vampire means and her lifestyle beyond high school. In thirty years she isn't going to be hanging out with Matt, Elena, and Bonnie at the grill. While she is a good, moral vampire, there are things and choices that her high school buddies see as right. Eventually she'll be alone with the Salvatore's and Tyler. She's immortal so who she wants to be friends with might have different consequences. That's not a great explanation of what I am trying to get at, but I do want to see Caroline examine where she'll be when most of her friends are married with kids. Seeing the world with Klaus in the year 2075 sounds kind of tempting.

ITA. Caroline has been a vampire for less than a year, and all of her friends are still around the same age as she is. If she was having an existential crisis on her 18th birthday, imagine how she's going to feel when her friends turn 30 (you know, assuming that Elena, Matt, and Bonnie manage to stay alive that long) and she still looks like she's in high school.

I don't want to see a Klaus/Caroline romance, but I'd be interested to see her develop a friendship or mentorship with an older vampire. Stefan taught her how to keep herself fed without attacking innocent humans, so she has basic survival skills but I think that what Klaus said to her on her birthday is something she's going to explore later. For an immortal, there is so much possibility. She seems interested in traveling, which I imagine is something that many vampires do after adjusting to life as a vamp. She has been portrayed as smart and competitive so she might go the same route as the vamp who was killed when Elijah threw that coin through the window. I can't remember his name now, but he had several different college degrees.

At this point, I don't think Caroline is going to explore any of those options while her friends (and her mother) are still relatively young, but I don't think she had considered the fact that she had any other options until she met Klaus. As lame a villain as Klaus has been, I think that he has opened her eyes to an existence beyond continuing along the same track as if she were still human. I can only imagine what she might explore if she developed a friendship with Elijah.

#306

vgerd

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Posted Feb 15, 2012 @ 3:39 AM

But at the end of the day, I find this dynamic makes me respect and feel for Stefan more, though I do have a soft spot for Damon even if I don't always buy into his angst and man pain.


For me, it's exactly the opposite. I always feel for Damon more, though I have a soft spot for Stefan simply because I heart Paul Wesley. I think he and Ian have some mad chemistry on screen together. But on the whole, Stefan's angst just annoys me most of the time, while Damon...oh how he makes me hurt for him. Just once I'd like to see a woman he cares about choose him first, and say, "Stefan who?" Just ONCE. I think it would go a helluva long way toward healing some of those emotional scars of his.

#307

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Posted Feb 15, 2012 @ 7:32 AM

The difference is Stefan attempts to distance and protect Elena from his pain, whereas Damon continues to pursue her without much concern of the violence and hurt has has inflicted on her.

Maybe he continues to pursue her because when he leaves town for a half day drive in the country she calls him later all ĎDamon where were you? Why did you leave me?í That oneís not on Damon. Plus, I donít think heís inflicted any violence on her in a very long time. Heís spent most of the last couple years protecting her.

Add to that he's reliving the whole Damon/Katherine/Stefan fiasco again with having to watch the woman he loves and his brother grow closer, who wouldn't be hurt by that?

Iím not sure when the Damon/Kat/Stefan thing got turned into Damon stealing his brothers girl, because that is never the impression I got. Kat seemed to be sleeping with both of them, concurrently. Kat was also doing some mind wammying to facilitate this. Damon was in love with Katherine, and Stefan claims he never was. So I donít see the situations as comparable. Also, Stefan spent the last year telling Elena he wasnít interested and that they were over in a pretty brutal fashion. Now the second sheís kind of letting herself try the Damon thing heís back to talking about his brother being no good (which, way to talk Stef!)

If the show wants to get this viewer on board with this Delena ship, the man handling we saw in this episode has to stop.

I think the show is doing the manhandling on purpose to push the D/E thing away, and it irritates me.

Just once I'd like to see a woman he cares about choose him first, and say, "Stefan who?" Just ONCE.

Seriously!

One of the reasons I like seeing Caroline with Klaus is I want to see her figure out what being a vampire means and her lifestyle beyond high school.

Yes, thatís what got to me out of Klausís first speech. All the Places Youíll Go, Vamp Style.

#308

Kara1940

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Posted Feb 15, 2012 @ 10:38 AM

Maybe he continues to pursue her because when he leaves town for a half day drive in the country she calls him later all ‘Damon where were you? Why did you leave me?’ That one’s not on Damon. Plus, I don’t think he’s inflicted any violence on her in a very long time. He’s spent most of the last couple years protecting her.


This is exactly why the Damon and Elena relationship is not working for me. It's all about protection, Elena constantly the damsel in distress, where is her own agency in any of this? That and the part about inflicting violence in a very long time. Like it was ever acceptable in the first place? From my perspective it is not.

I’m not sure when the Damon/Kat/Stefan thing got turned into Damon stealing his brothers girl, because that is never the impression I got. Kat seemed to be sleeping with both of them, concurrently. Kat was also doing some mind wammying to facilitate this. Damon was in love with Katherine, and Stefan claims he never was. So I don’t see the situations as comparable. Also, Stefan spent the last year telling Elena he wasn’t interested and that they were over in a pretty brutal fashion. Now the second she’s kind of letting herself try the Damon thing he’s back to talking about his brother being no good (which, way to talk Stef!)


I don't think the whole Damon/Katherine/Stefan scenario was Damon stealing Katherine either, I saw it as Katherine playing both of them. But Damon seemed to be more willing to embrace what Katherine was doing to them the more he found out about her and her plans, whereas Stefan had to be compelled into compliance. That and it did cause a lot of damage between Stefan and Damon for a very long time, mostly due to Damon holding on to his own hurt and anger.

And about Stefan pushing Elena away, again I see this as him trying to protect her even if it is from himself. And about his bad mouthing Damon here, again Stefan is placing himself on the same level here. If Stefan feels like he is no longer worthy of Elena given everything he has done, certainly that would also apply to Damon and his violent history.

If the show wants to get this viewer on board with this Delena ship, the man handling we saw in this episode has to stop.


For me it just went to show how paper thin Damon's supposed redemption really was. Just more of his acting out which at this point is just in character for him. Not saying Damon is not capable of real redemption, he certainly is and I would love to see it. But he makes it all about Elena, not about himself, and that is just not the way redemption works.

Just once I'd like to see a woman he cares about choose him first, and say, "Stefan who?" Just ONCE.


It will happen the moment Damon chooses to pursue a woman not already involved with his brother. Damon sets himself up for it, so it makes it hard for me to feel sorry for him.

Edited by Kara1940, Feb 15, 2012 @ 10:42 AM.


#309

zizou

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Posted Feb 15, 2012 @ 12:50 PM

I don't think the whole Damon/Katherine/Stefan scenario was Damon stealing Katherine either


Especially because she was with him first (that is, if for the sake of argument we assume that the concept of stealing a person isn't ridiculous).

#310

smices

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Posted Feb 15, 2012 @ 3:46 PM

No, it's pretty clear she was with Stefan first. The first flashback episode made that clear when Damon encourages Stefan to go after Katherine. Also she and Stefan were openly dating while her relationship with Damon was hidden.

#311

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Posted Feb 15, 2012 @ 4:31 PM

The first flashback episode made that clear when Damon encourages Stefan to go after Katherine.

The first flashback shows Damon saying 'that's a girl who wants to be chased' then waiting for stefan to go for it, then saying 'if you won't I will'. So, ymmv on that. But this is an old argument that should probably go to the all seasons thread.

As for this episode, I didn't think Stefan did too much annoying, aside from being Elena's puppet and seeming kind of too happy to snap Damon's neck. I was far more bothered by Elena's actions with both brothers, for different reasons.

But I'm still giggling at Klaus's pony picture, so it definately had a few things going for it!

#312

ardentshine

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Posted Feb 15, 2012 @ 7:28 PM

I can only imagine what she might explore if she developed a friendship with Elijah.


This would be far more compelling to me than Klaus/Caroline.

#313

vgerd

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Posted Feb 15, 2012 @ 8:01 PM

No, it's pretty clear she was with Stefan first.


I thought it was made abundantly clear that whatever the public perception was, Katherine had a secret, sexual relationship with Damon well before she lured Stefan into her bed. And she led Damon to believe that she was planning a future with him, not Stefan. Damon's heartbreak at Katherine's hands was most assuredly not on him. That was all about Katherine and her twisted games. She was the one who pursued and seduced both of them.

As for this episode, I didn't think Stefan did too much annoying, aside from being Elena's puppet and seeming kind of too happy to snap Damon's neck. I was far more bothered by Elena's actions with both brothers, for different reasons.


This I actually agree with. It's Elena's behavior in the last episode that I had a major issue with, not Stefan's.

Edited by vgerd, Feb 15, 2012 @ 8:02 PM.


#314

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Posted Feb 15, 2012 @ 8:02 PM

Also she and Stefan were openly dating while her relationship with Damon was hidden.


Stefan and Katherine kissed for the first time the night of the ball, after Damon came back from the war. That same night, Damon was waiting in her bedroom (and she compelled him to leave) so they were already sleeping together; also we saw they were together before Damon left for the war (Damon's flashback in one of last season's last episodes) so he was with Katherine first, for what it's worth. It's true it was a secret, tho.

#315

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Posted Feb 16, 2012 @ 10:25 AM

Elijah! In! A! Tux! What is it, my birthday, show? Really? Because, dayam. Me happy.

MustBeThursday: This cast generally has a lot of chemistry, so that alone is not enough to sell me on Klaus/Caroline. He murdered Jenna and Elena (who got better, but still) and he ruined a lot of lives.

This is exactly how I feel. As it is, I'm annoyed that the show's creators often don't seem to remember that this man killed Jenna cruelly and with malice right in front of Elena. He enjoyed it. And then he killed Elena herself. The very idea that Elena OR any one of her friends could exchange a civil word with Klaus without looking either pissed off or terrified just feels off to me. Caroline shouldn't seem vaguely flattered or adorably pissy. She should be extremely worried, potentially terrified, and very very angry.

For now it feels just very artificial, as if Klaus is two people -- the Big Bad of last season, and this season's gentler, whinier bad boy:

Klaus: Nobody loves me! I need more hybrids!
Damon: You are so right. Especially with that hair.
<cue canned laugh track>
Klaus: Well, maybe a few less hybrids and a quick visit to the salon.

I accept that time in Mystic Falls (and the mourning period) is abnormally low, since, as with Buffy, they'd all be catatonic with PTSD at this point.

But what I want to see from Klaus right now, if he's gonna woo Caroline and try to force amnesia in viewers about what a bad, bad bad guy he really is?

Remorse. I want some freakin' Klaus remorse. I want speeches. I want it seeping out of his hair and fingernails. I want Klaus tears over Jenna. Remorse. Atonement. And then he might, might, might be worthy of our adorbs Vampire Barbie. Although my shallowness is threatening to intervene for now I still want Klaus Sorries all over the place.

slayer2: Well that does it, I'm a Klaroline shipper and I am shipping very hardcore. Guess I'll have to put my hopes for a Bonnie/Klaus hook-up to the side. "I fancy you" Guuuuuuh! Puddle of slayer on the floor. (snip) When she walked into that ballroom in that beautiful dress {keen fashion sense he has as well it seems} the way he looked at her.....oh.ma.gah!

You are not alone. Despite my post above, every scene with Klaus and Caroline leaves me a puddle of squeeage. It's very sad. But what can I say, I'm weak. And I like ponies. And I thought the picture was actually quite lovely and well rendered (and a cut above what we usually see in these situations).

MW, I love Pudding Pop whenever he is not being an OOC dick to Caroline so the past few eps reminded me of the Pudding Pop Golden Age. I honestly don't want him killed. For one, he moves me and is kind of adorable. And two, he is one of the few mortals left in MF. I feel kind of protective. And the stories would suffer if we simply had no more mortals to care about. I kind of want them to battle and fight and nearly kill Matt a dozen times over yet he survives because that is life in MF for those who choose it. It's heroic.

ardentshine: I looked at Klaus's drawing as something incredibly old-fashioned and humble, not juvenile or silly. I mean, he renovated that mansion as a lavish "gift" to his family, and that kind of ostentation is exactly what didn't work on Caroline. So instead he gave her something that he might have given a girl back when he was human, a gift created out of sincerity and simplicity. Sure, he could of course be a duplicitous asshole and have a nefarious plot in mind for her, but if this was actually him trying to connect with a person, then I have to think he was responding to her honesty with an honest gift.


Kudos, such a lovely post and I totally agree! I found the sketch much more moving than stupid diamonds, and despite OMG PONIES! I thought he actually tried to convey something meaningful there. And OMG PONIES! Love.

Tara1189: But seriously, why are all these thousand year-old Vampires panting over teenagers? It's creepy and weird

I don't really mind this because, to me, it's apparent that in the Vampire Diaries universe at least, vampires seem to remain perpetually what they were, frozen in time and emotional maturity. So Beck really is a lonely teenaged girl at heart (who never got a prom); Klaus is the lost teenager without Daddy approval, and Elijah the perpetual older brother who everyone finds a colossal pain but who is actually a mature dreamboat. (Elijah! Call me!)

Ultimately, I loved this ep and found it one of the best this year. It satisfied all my needs: Smarts, Sass, Suspense, Waltzing, and pretty pretty people. And Elijah. Who will never call me but with a VD Fix, I'm Okay With That.

Oh, and I loved Elena's dress. Shoot me.

#316

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Posted Feb 16, 2012 @ 1:37 PM

Okay, so it took me a week to come to grips with the wth! feeling I was left with after watching the ep, but truth be told I am still seething at Elena's last scene with Damon.

Now this is a person who always demands that Damon allows himself to feel, especially when it comes to love; (recall Rose's death) and for him to be the better man and during this season, he has become that person, feeling more for Alaric, Stefan, Jeremy and even Bonnie and of course Elena, so how is it that she can basically adopt the attitude 'Yea I know you love me, but it doesn't suit my purpose right now, so shove it.'

Understandably, his rough manhandling of her needs to stop as the writers use it as a device to show how passionate he is about protecting her from the world and especially, herself. Look at the episodes where this happens: when she wanted to meet with Elijah in the Sacrifice "I'll break your arm", even to a lesser extent when he pushed her into the lake when she went looking for werewolves during a full moon and several other scenes.
Remember his statement to Stefan that basically while he's busy placating her, Damon would be the one who ensures she survives.
He is in full protector mode around her, due to her propensity to get into trouble.
However, Elena wants to pick and choose when Damon can be this type of person; the 'Where were you Damon? in the Reckoning episode.
She knows how he feels about her, "I will always choose you" and kisses him, but then a few nights later is all ready to push him away and pull Stefan back in her arms. UGH!
As Damon told her, She and Katherine have more in common than their looks.

#317

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Posted Feb 16, 2012 @ 7:56 PM

He is in full protector mode around her, due to her propensity to get into trouble.
However, Elena wants to pick and choose when Damon can be this type of person; the 'Where were you Damon? in the Reckoning episode.
She knows how he feels about her, "I will always choose you" and kisses him, but then a few nights later is all ready to push him away and pull Stefan back in her arms. UGH!
As Damon told her, She and Katherine have more in common than their looks.





I don't think it's called "Protection Mode" on Damon's part. It's really called, Over Bearing and Overly Possessive. And when Elena said "Where were you Damon" in that episode, she said that because of her love for Stefan, because if Stefan and Elena ever needed Damon's help at any time, it was at that point in time.

And Elena made it perfectly clear to Damon, when he tried to kiss her in her bedroom, that it was Stefan she loved, she said NO Damon "It will always be Stefan". And then Damon broke Jeremy's neck.

Also, I feel that when Damon kissed Elena, it was at a low moment for Elena, she had a rough day and night, and needed a hug and kiss no matter who it was from, Unfortunately it just so happened to be Damon.

Edited by StefLena, Feb 16, 2012 @ 8:01 PM.