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S24: Kim


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#91

SimonHumboldt

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 8:13 PM

My goodness. I know Russell kept saying he was born to play this game, but Kim is showing how much SHE was born to play Survivor.
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#92

enlightenedbum

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 8:58 PM

Closer to Yul. Best first time player since Earl if she can finish.
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#93

ByaNose

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 9:06 PM

I can't remember with Yul if it was this obvious that he would make the final 3 and potentally win. Kim's game is so smooth and well thought out. I like that she has Chelsea to bounce off of (and, both are really HOT) and, thinks everything through and never panics. And, she still has the HII to boot. Again, is it too obvious or is this a blind side epic fail? I really want her to win. Kim for the Win!!
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#94

enlightenedbum

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 9:15 PM

The edit made Yul a focus from the start, but things happened he had to overcome more than it has for Kim.
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#95

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 9:52 PM

Someone pointed out that every single vote tonight except Troy's went the way Kim planned. That's 9 votes out of 10, and not the usual all-but-1 for the evictee. She looks like an orchestra conductor out there.

I haven't been this impressed by an eventual winner's smarts, cool, and lack of apparent hubris this far into the game other than Yul, so I figure it's going too well to work out for her. She'll probably get Michelle'd.
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#96

Bigwheels1971

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 10:24 PM

From the Episode Thread:

By voting out Jay. She [Kim] clearly had the upper hand. What would be wrong with getting rid of Alicia or Christina in her position? Now she has a pretty intelligent, desperate man in camp who once trusted her. If she had continued to use her head she could have kept that man on her side for longer.



I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly but in my opinion, if Kim wanted to engineer a woman's ouster at this point, she'd lose the game.

Amy (Vanuatu?) if I remember correctly, brilliantly orchestrated an all women alliance which was working. When it got down to the last guy, Chris, Amy decided that the alliance could afford to vote out one of the women on the lower tier. Unfortunately, they found out, paranoia ensued, and Chris ultimately won the season.

I feel like Kim (as with Amy) has this incredible ability to make people buy what she's selling, even to their own detriment. I think Amy would have made F2 had the women voted off Chris and if Kim wants to have a chance at F3, she needs to stick to voting off the guys.

Edited by Bigwheels1971, Apr 11, 2012 @ 10:28 PM.

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#97

enlightenedbum

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 10:29 PM

Ami lost for the same reason leaders always get voted out: they allow the pecking order to be revealed too early. She had a core three, it was obvious at seven, Twila and Scout knew they were four and five, got Chris, and convinced Eliza that she was six.

Kim, I don't think, doesn't have that problem. There are nine left, she and Chelsea are a core two and three different people are convinced they're the third.
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#98

Funeris Nocturnum

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 10:38 PM

And unliked Ami and most power players, she is hidden in the trenches with the rest of the pawns instead of ruling from above on a throne (and being a visible target for a potential uprising). Less Joffrey and more Littlefinger/Varys, if you will.
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#99

bubtuber

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 10:41 PM

Hey I am new! Have posted a few times in the Biggest lose thread but have been ignored :( Yeah in Vanuatu it was Twila who flipped the game! She spoon fed Chris the strategy to change things. I am sick of people giving chris all the credit. But when it came down to final 2 it does come down to Chris telling Twila that they shouldnt kiss the jury's ass. She took his advice and bombed in the FTC and he kissed ass and won.

Kim Is damn good! Her, Cirie, Parvati, Twila, Yul and Earl are my fav players on Survivor
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#100

Bigwheels1971

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 10:46 PM

enlightenedbum: I'm really impressed by your memory, I can barely remember most contestant names after the season is over! :)

ETA:

...and three different people are convinced they're the third.


I find it amazing that season after season, there's always a few who think they are in the core alliance & end up getting played because nobody compares notes. In this case however, I hope Kim can pull it off.

Edited by Bigwheels1971, Apr 11, 2012 @ 11:08 PM.

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#101

enlightenedbum

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 10:52 PM

I've been rewatching all of them lately, so... that helps. I also have a very, very good memory for stupid bullshit trivia.
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#102

SpeciousLogic

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 11:12 PM

I also have a very, very good memory for stupid bullshit trivia.


Me too. I have a great mind for things that don't help you find a job. :-o

Ami was definitely more visible as a leader than Kim (at least from what we see). I liked her in general, but she had a bit of a hair trigger when she sensed someone not doing things her way. And as enlightenedbum noted, her ultimate failure was in tipping her hand too soon and deciding to vote out someone who thought she was part of Ami's alliance. One more TC to vote out Chris, and she's probably golden.

Kim could still make that mistake, but she hasn't given any indication that she's inclined to do so. She seems very good at not letting someone know they're on the chopping block until the deed is done (or it's too late for them to do anything about it.)
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#103

enlightenedbum

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 11:14 PM

I find it amazing that season after season, there's always a few who think they are in the core alliance & end up getting played because nobody compares notes. In this case however, I hope Kim can pull it off.


Well, they're told (I'm sure) that the mastermind is just playing the other two, they're the REAL F3 partner. Like Kim told Alicia tonight, only you know, lying. God knows that's how Rob rolled.
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#104

ByaNose

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 11:23 PM

So, the real (as the plan goes) final 3 is Kim, Chelsea & Sabrina, right? So, there is Troy, Tarzan, Leif, Kat, Christina & Alicia. I will be curious exactly what oder the final boot will be for the woman. I guess it depends on Kim's HII & whomever wins II that night. A couple bitter guys on the jury and some woman who thought they were going to be the final 3 on the jury. This should be fun.
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#105

enlightenedbum

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 11:25 PM

We don't have Kim's idea on who the third member is. I'd think it's Kat because Sabrina seems more likely to win jury votes.

That's definitely the planned F4 though.

Edited by enlightenedbum, Apr 11, 2012 @ 11:26 PM.

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#106

Bigwheels1971

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 11:28 PM

Well, they're told (I'm sure) that the mastermind is just playing the other two, they're the REAL F3 partner. Like Kim told Alicia tonight, only you know, lying.


That's what I mean, I don't think I've ever seen a scenario on this show where someone says...

"X told me s/he was just stringing you guys along."

2nd person: "Wait, s/he told me the same about you."

3rd person: "You too???!!!"

"Let's find him/her now!"

Edited by Bigwheels1971, Apr 11, 2012 @ 11:43 PM.

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#107

BK1978

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:00 AM

So, the real (as the plan goes) final 3 is Kim, Chelsea & Sabrina, right? So, there is Troy, Tarzan, Leif, Kat, Christina & Alicia. I will be curious exactly what oder the final boot will be for the woman. I guess it depends on Kim's HII & whomever wins II that night. A couple bitter guys on the jury and some woman who thought they were going to be the final 3 on the jury. This should be fun.


This is what I am thinking as well, you can play a great game and run the game but it really is up to the jury. Look at the original All-Stars, Boston Rob should have won that(Well he did because he and Amber ended up getting married)but a bitter jury cost him his chance. This could be what ends up happening to Kim, she runs the entire game but when it comes to the endgame the final woman to be booted might end up being angry that she was eliminated in favor of someone else.

Then you have what will be an all male majority jury, which who knows if they will be bitter and not want to give the money to someone who was the major factor getting them voted out. With all of those things up in the air, I think a case could be made that perhaps Sabrina, Kat, or Chelsea could end up being the winner.
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#108

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:26 AM

I know it's too soon to say, most likely, but now that Jay's been dispatched, I think Kim can (and probably will) have it in the bag if Troyzan goes next. She can definitely pull it off once he's out of the way. And assuming the coup he's hinted as trying to stage in the previews is just misdirection.

But yeah, assuming she does run the game all the way to the end, a bitter jury probably can sink her if she's not careful and doesn't state her case the best, calmest way she can.

Edited by TDWT Kristen, Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:35 AM.

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#109

enlightenedbum

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:26 AM

She needs one more vote so her main 4 isn't the majority and for Troy to not be immune at some point, yeah.
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#110

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:41 AM

Well, Kim's under-the-radar phase is certainly over---and in Troy, she has a nemesis (although maybe not a very good one). I've said before, he reminds me of Terry Deitz, and Terry didn't have the advantage of a clear leader to try to turn everybody else against. Troy does. If I were him, I'd try to pull Greg, Alicia, and Christina into an F4---it's the obvious move, and he's a smart guy.

There are two schools of Survivor masterminds, broadly speaking: those who never get targeted, and those who do but manage to shrug the targets off. Kim's application to the first school has been rejected. Will she end up in the second, or will she end up Ami Cusack?

I thought she made three tiny missteps tonight: the whole "would you tell him if he was?" thing with Jay; coming on so strong with Troy and setting off his suspicions; and stepping down in the IC. With the one exception of Hatch at F3, I think it's always wrong to throw a challenge. If Kim really wants to be seen as one of the random Leif-esque drones while secretly running the game, she's got to act like it. There are a few steps between "Kim seems cocky about not needing immunity" and "Kim thinks she's running the show", but why take the first one if you're trying to play UTR?

That said, I'd rather watch a Hatch who occasionally missteps and recovers than a Heidik against whom it was not fair to ask mere mortals to play.
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#111

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 5:37 AM

I think Kim's really playing well to get herself to the F3, but I don't think she's actually playing a winning game at the moment. I just don't see her winning the jury votes--I don't think the jury will be bitter, per se, but I think they'll reward a "lesser" player from Kim's alliance over Kim herself.

The jury right now is Jonas, Mike, and Jay. Jonas is aware that Kim was running his ouster, so he might not vote for her. And both Mike and Jay were basically told point-blank by Kim that they were safe, so their votes are out. I may be wrong (and actually hope I am), but I see a situation just like Boston Rob and Amber, where he played the better game and got them to the end, but the votes went to her because people don't vote for the person that snuffed them.
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#112

Funeris Nocturnum

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:49 AM

If there's bitterness to be had, it would have to be from the female jurors. Based on the Ponderosa videos it seems that the men are chill enough that barring any major development of douchiness or negative personal gameplay in Kim's part, I'm sure she can muster up a FTC performance worthy enough to sway the men to her side. The possibility of wishy-washiness from any of her F3 compatriots coupled by their perceived follower status would help, too.
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#113

EggMan

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 11:08 AM

I know it's too soon to say, most likely, but now that Jay's been dispatched, I think Kim can (and probably will) have it in the bag if Troyzan goes next.


As I believe I've said elsewhere, if she does not win F4 II she could very well end up on the jury. At that point the power shifts from the tribal leader to the II winner.
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#114

neplusultra

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:57 PM

More and more I see Kim as being way overrated as a "mastermind". She looks like one only because she's mostly playing with a bunch of mental midgets (or perhaps more charitably in some cases, recruits who just aren't that familiar with the game and its strategy, which still makes them pushovers for practical purposes). But she tends to say a lot of stuff she shouldn't, and wouldn't get away with saying if she were against sharper players. I'd put almost everything she has ever said at Tribal Council in this category (which should have been a giant warning sign that she was too strategic), as well as things like saying "would you tell him if we were", seeming to smirk and repress laughter when assuring Jay the plan was on for Alicia, etc.
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#115

peachmangosteen

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 7:36 PM

More and more I see Kim as being way overrated as a "mastermind". She looks like one only because she's mostly playing with a bunch of mental midgets (or perhaps more charitably in some cases, recruits who just aren't that familiar with the game and its strategy, which still makes them pushovers for practical purposes).

I think this is maybe just the nature of the game now. Every winner in the past several seasons got the 'yea, but they were playing against idiots, so it doesn't count' argument.

I think that, on the whole, this season actually had more strategic thinkers than in most recent seasons. I mean, IMO, all the remaining women are actually a bit more with it strategically than most from, say, RI Part 1. Of the men, Troy, Jonas, and maybe even Mike and Jay weren't like a Grant or a Phillip.

I juts don't think that Kim's playing against a bunch of idiots. I might say that about Samoa's Natalie (who's one of my fave winners) or BRob in RI, but I really don't think the women, in particular, come close to the people on BRob's team in RI or Galu (was it Galu?) in Samoa.

Edited by peachmangosteen, Apr 13, 2012 @ 7:37 PM.

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#116

Yogurt Baron

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 9:14 PM

I think this is maybe just the nature of the game now. Every winner in the past several seasons got the 'yea, but they were playing against idiots, so it doesn't count' argument.


Has this really only been the past several seasons? The greatest victim of that argument, as far as I can tell, has been Richard Hatch.

Said it before, will say it again: if you're playing Survivor well, you make the people around you look like idiots. There were a number of smart, reasonably good players in Tocantins. J.T. made them look like idiots. J.T. went on HVV; Russell made him look like an idiot. Russell went on RI; a tribe of nobodies with only moderate game savvy made him look like an idiot. Does that mean that RI Ralph is exponentially smarter than everybody on Tocantins and HVV combined? Nope. That's just the game.
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#117

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 9:24 PM

Stephen made them look like idiots. He's just socially awkward and had one of the worst non-Amanda FTCs ever.

And his own sexism made J.T. look like an idiot in HVV.
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#118

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 9:27 PM

Agreed, Yogurt Baron. That's also why its almost pointless to compare players across seasons, because every cast is different, the rules and twists are rarely identical, and there are always elements of luck that have a great effect on the final outcome. I would almost go so far as to say that tactics are far more important than overall strategy in this game; those who respond best to their immediate circumstances, whether it's overcoming sudden adversity or properly playing an ace (shoutout to Sugar), are the ones who keep advancing and make the most of their own season's particular opportunities.

I think Kim has responded marvelously to the specific circumstances of her season and her position, and molded it to her advantage. Whether her strategy ultimately works out remains to be seen, of course, but her tactics have, for the most part, been excellent.
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#119

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 12:07 AM

Peachmangosteen, I'd agree that the people on Kim's alliance are clearly less idiotic than their opposition. Sabrina in particular is pretty sharp. But Kim's not playing against anyone very sharp. She keeps things together fairly well (though not well enough to fool Troyzan this week), doesn't let personal stuff blow up her game (like Colton and a lot of other players we've seen), just plays a steady, safe game. And a steady, safe game will take you very far against a bunch of strategically obtuse, socially dysfunctional scatterbrains. I'm just saying she doesn't deserve all the huzzahs she's getting, because most people on this board could do the same in her place.

And she makes too many mistakes to be credited even with a perfectly solid, straightforward, safe game. Just because those mistakes (which I can't picture Richard Hatch or Sophie making) haven't come back to bite her in the ass (yet) doesn't mean they don't diminish her standing as a Survivor mastermind. It's one thing to stick your neck out to make a bold move that gains you something--that I respect, applaud, etc. But she makes mistakes that don't do anything for her, just because she often doesn't know when to keep her mouth shut. A lot of the stuff she says at Tribal and in interactions with other people, she should save for the interviews that no fellow tribemates or jury members see until after the playing and voting are all done.

Edited by neplusultra, Apr 14, 2012 @ 12:08 AM.

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#120

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 1:41 AM

neplusultra, but has anyone in Kim's position ever so completely convinced the people she's voted out (orchestrating the vote-outs) that she was on their side, to the extent that they went to Ponderosa believing she had not voted against them?

Both Mike and Jay left TC thinking Kim and Chelsea had been loyal to them.

For me, that is what sets Kim apart from other "masterminds" of the game. She's managing to stay UTR at the same time she's the puppetmaster. I know **I** could not pull that off! :-) But then again, I don't play poker well either.
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