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6-11: "Talk to the Hand" 2011.12.11


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#151

SydNC

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 9:55 AM

The therapist asked Deb why she chooses bad/unavailable men, asking if it's because they are not her brother. In fact, it's because they are exactly like her brother... it's not going to be an incest thing, it's just a clue to Deb and a first step towards figuring out who Dex really is... if she thinks she is in love with him, and chooses men like him, she might question who he really is...

#152

HeroBrown1

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 10:52 AM

The therapist asked Deb why she chooses bad/unavailable men, asking if it's because they are not her brother. In fact, it's because they are exactly like her brother... it's not going to be an incest thing, it's just a clue to Deb and a first step towards figuring out who Dex really is... if she thinks she is in love with him, and chooses men like him, she might question who he really is...


Now that I think of it, they really are like Dexter in some way.

-Rudy/Brian: This kinda goes without saying.
-Gabriel (Gym guy from Season Two): Boring, although well meaning, but kinda dopey, really nothing like Dexter
-Agent Lundy: smart, cool-headed under pressure, great knack for finding killers, old enough to be her father but is kinda like Harry and Dexter combined minus being a psycho. Probably the love of her life.
-Anton:artsy, pot-head, nice guy in general but nothing really Dexter-like about him other than he was always away on tour performing
-Quinn:dirty cop, has a moral gray area as to how to solve cases

#153

jamesd

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 1:40 PM

We don't get the previews in Canada so maybe this is revealed there but are we just assuming louis is sending the hand to Dexter because we saw hime write Dexter's name on the package? Is it all possible that he is writing dexter Morgan on the package so it appears that Dexter is actually the sender of the hand?

#154

Cosmosgravitati

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 2:42 PM

The therapist asked Deb why she chooses bad/unavailable men, asking if it's because they are not her brother. In fact, it's because they are exactly like her brother... it's not going to be an incest thing, it's just a clue to Deb and a first step towards figuring out who Dex really is... if she thinks she is in love with him, and chooses men like him, she might question who he really is...


I doubt it. She's thought Dexter is a great guy for her entire life. Something so minor is not going to change her mind when compared to what she believes is a huge body of evidence. Something much more concrete would be needed to create doubts.

People look back at their relationships and realize the poor decisions they made, but it's a lot harder to apply that thinking to present relationships. I think it's much more likely she'll latch onto the psychiatrists hint that because she subconsciously wants to be with Dexter she made poor relationship choices in the past. It will make her feel better about her choices and give her hope for the future, so it's a lot easier to believe.

We don't get the previews in Canada so maybe this is revealed there but are we just assuming louis is sending the hand to Dexter because we saw hime write Dexter's name on the package? Is it all possible that he is writing dexter Morgan on the package so it appears that Dexter is actually the sender of the hand?


He'd have no reason to pretend to be sending a package from Dexter. Who would he send it to that it'd make an impact on? Deb? She wouldn't believe Dexter sent it even before he said so.

It's much more likely he's sending it to Dexter.

MTE. If Matthews could trust that Debra could keep her word, then why the hell did he even go Laguerta in the first place?!!!


He probably was ashamed and didn't want Debra to know what he'd done.

My real problems with this plot development: 1, is this writing team writing it well / going to write it well in the future? HELL no. They way they’re doing it is poorly written, out of nowhere, and obviously a cheap ratings ploy.


I agree that the writing team probably doesn't have the skill to do the story justice. There's nothing we can do about that but hope they prove us wrong if they decide to run with it.

However, I do think there is a good chance they've been planting the seeds for Dexter/Deb since the very beginning. As MCH said in a recent interview, the very first thing Dexter says about Deb is if he could have feelings for anyone he'd have them for her. There are plenty of moments and hints throughout the series that could be interpreted as Dexter/Deb having more than normal sibling affection for each other.

Let's just take the first episode as an example. Rewatch their first scene together. It sure seems like they're flirting to me. Later Dexter says he preferred her in the sex suit, and Deb responds with a laugh and a smile that he's a "sick bastard", but she obviously took no offense and didn't see it as unusual. Those aren't normal sibling interactions.

There are a lot more moments throughout the series, particularly on the part of Deb. Individually they mean nothing, but added together I think they can easily be viewed as a foundation for Dexter/Deb. It was subtext, but it was there.

Reason number two I do not want with the incest, and this is my dirty little secret, but I’m going to say it: I want Dexter and Deb to have a happy ending.


I also want Dexter to have a happy ending, but I don't see why being with Deb would preclude that.

Edited by Cosmosgravitati, Dec 15, 2011 @ 2:44 PM.


#155

HeroBrown1

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 3:20 PM

He probably was ashamed and didn't want Debra to know what he'd done.


True, but going to Laguerta was still a dumb move. He's known her for quite a long time, she knew she's been manipulative in the past and she blackmailed him to become Captain. The last person he should have gone to was her. A better scenario for him would be to just go up to Deb in private and say that he did a horrible thing and ask her to cover up for him--which she did (or at least tried to). He, like Laguerta is Deb's superior, after all and telling her to simply lay off the case would have been enough for Deb not to pursue it.

However, I do think there is a good chance they've been planting the seeds for Dexter/Deb since the very beginning. As MCH said in a recent interview, the very first thing Dexter says about Deb is if he could have feelings for anyone he'd have them for her. There are plenty of moments and hints throughout the series that could be interpreted as Dexter/Deb having more than normal sibling affection for each other.

Let's just take the first episode as an example. Rewatch their first scene together. It sure seems like they're flirting to me. Later Dexter says he preferred her in the sex suit, and Deb responds with a laugh and a smile that he's a "sick bastard", but she obviously took no offense and didn't see it as unusual. Those aren't normal sibling interactions.


IA. I'm not completely mortified at the Deb/Dex relationship alone so much as I am upset that it's just now playing out after 6 seasons. There have been moments, as you mentioned, that their interactions can at times cross the sibling line (I'd never talk about sex or relationships with my own brother). Not to mention, neither Debra and Dexter have had truly honest, stable relationships with their respective partners; Deb had Lundy and Dex had Lumen, but one died and the other just ran away. So in a way, it seems nobody is meant to be with Deb or Dex and that they were only meant for each other.

But even with these small hints, having Debra just now realizing her feelings looks like the writers are desperate. If this has been building up over the years as MCH said it was then there should've been more insinuations of a growing relationship along the way.

#156

Cosmosgravitati

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 3:54 PM

True, but going to Laguerta was still a dumb move. He's known her for quite a long time, she knew she's been manipulative in the past and she blackmailed him to become Captain. The last person he should have gone to was her. A better scenario for him would be to just go up to Deb in private and say that he did a horrible thing and ask her to cover up for him--which she did (or at least tried to). He, like Laguerta is Deb's superior, after all and telling her to simply lay off the case would have been enough for Deb not to pursue it.


Oh, I definitely agree. He was foolish to trust LaGuerta. Although LaGuerta already knew he saw prostitutes, so he probably figured she would've already made a move against him if she was going to. His mistake.

I'm not completely mortified at the Deb/Dex relationship alone so much as I am upset that it's just now playing out after 6 seasons...

But even with these small hints, having Debra just now realizing her feelings looks like the writers are desperate. If this has been building up over the years as MCH said it was then there should've been more insinuations of a growing relationship along the way.


I think even if they were planning for them to get together they had to wait until the final seasons to do it. They have such a relationship that once you put them together you can't really break them apart. There would have been no more love subplots for either of them, and the masses love romance subplots. Deb would never have hooked up with Lundy, Antoan, Quinn, etc. Dexter would never married Rita.

Even if they didn't put them together, if they had just made them more overtly attracted to each other, it still would have changed things. Without subtlety, most of the fans would have realized Dexter and Deb were going to be together at some point and we would have had the issue most network TV shows have (Castle, etc.) where it's just a matter of time and every other relationship feels like a mere obstacle.

Assuming they did plan it from the beginning (admittedly, a huge assumption), but only wanted to really go there with their end game, I think we'd have something similar to what we have now. Little hints sprinkled throughout the seasons, but few truly overt one's. And if there are truly only two seasons left, it'd make sense that they'd move towards it now.

And I think there were hints of a growing relationship. I think it's pretty clear that Deb has come to depend on Dexter more and more, and Dexter has also realized he really does love Deb.

Keep in mind also that we've only really taken the first tiny, tentative step towards a Dexter/Deb relationship. Deb would have just realized that she loves Dexter, needs him, and could perhaps think of him romantically. They'd obviously have a lot more work to do if they want to make it even remotely believable.

Hopefully Dexter and Deb don't hook up and immediately jump in bed like Deb does with most of her romantic interests. If they do it right, they shouldn't be together until at least the middle of next season.

Edited by Cosmosgravitati, Dec 15, 2011 @ 3:56 PM.


#157

pharaohandrew

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 4:57 PM

Cosmos - your evaluation of foreshadowing is spot-on. The first episode, all throughout this season, and the "previously on..." segment for the first episode this season repeated Dexter's "If I could have feelings for anyone..." line.

I'm an only child, so I don't understand a lot of sibling dynamics, but even so, the incest thing going on here mortifies me. I see it playing out as Deb kissing Dexter, catching him off-guard, but Dexter shutting her down, and in the process, strengthening their familial relationship. Neat and tidy. I don't think I can keep watching if Dexter doesn't fix her issues in the finale. I see what you're saying about a lot of foreshadowing going into this, but I hope it was just for a 2-episode story arc. I really can't reconcile that situation going any further with my expectations as a viewer. Maybe I'm weak-minded, but I can't stand to think of Dexter seeing his sister as more than a sister.

#158

Cosmosgravitati

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 6:12 PM

Pharaohandrew,

I can understand that. Due to birth defects and disease immunity, it's ingrained in our society (perhaps even our biology) for most of us to be freaked out by incest. Even though intellectually one might realize Dexter and Deb aren't biologically related, they still have that emotional relationship so our minds think of them as brother and sister.

Someone quoted Aristotle on a different forum that I think applies. Aristotle said:

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.


If they do continue with the Dexter/Deb romance next season, just try and realize it's only a story. Just like in real life we wouldn't condone a serial killer vigilante, some of us might not be okay with adopted sibling sex (me? I'm fine with it). But that doesn't mean it can't make for a good story that we still might enjoy.

Now, if the story is poorly told and poorly written, then I completely understand jumping ship. Personally, I think it's a little early to judge that regarding the Dexter/Deb relationship. Although the writing for the show in general has certainly gone down hill from the earlier seasons, it's still entertaining enough for me to watch.

#159

Portia

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 6:14 PM

Seriously. WORST PSYCHIATRIST EVER. Deb was obviously uncomfortable with her suggestion that she's in love with her brother, yet she kept pressing her. I don't think any professional would make their patient so angry the way she did with Debra.


That was really fucked up. It makes no sense that the therapist would even suggest it and that she'd do it in such a way that gives the impression she knows it's true no matter what Deb thinks.

I swear this season is like some kids with ADD are writing the show and hopping around with story lines but not able to concentrate long enough to even notice so much of it makes no sense. The premise of the show requires viewers to suspend belief in regard to all the plastic, the kill rooms, the time it would actually take to hunt down, kill, cut up, load up body pieces, get to the marina, load it all in, go to the drop site and then get back home...but this season every damn story line requires me to suspend belief. How much more can they cram into one season?

The only possible reason I can see for them making Deb question her feelings for Dexter would to be distract her from picking any clues on who he really is. I agree with Dexter in the first season....that it's odd Doakes was the only one to get any creepy vibe from him. It just feels like they have been using all her boyfriends to distract so she can be both smart and unaware of things that just don't add up with Dexter.

#160

gypsy landslide

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 6:48 PM

Deb's dream REALLY creeped me out... I couldn't watch.

I honestly don't see any hint of them paving the way for this at any point - in fact, I remember being surprised to find out that MCH & JC were married IRL, as I'd never seen any of that kind of chemistry show through on screen. And after finding out, I would watch and marvel at what fantastic actors they are to portray their characters as brother and sister without a hint of romantic/sexual overtones, despite having that relationship outside the show.

#161

bcharmer

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 7:43 PM

Oh, I definitely agree. He was foolish to trust LaGuerta. Although LaGuerta already knew he saw prostitutes, so he probably figured she would've already made a move against him if she was going to. His mistake.


Didn't she have his little black book, or something? She gave it back to him early on, and that was part of their deal. She'd keep her mouth shut about his activities, and he'd promote her. Am I remembering that correctly? She had the goods on him before the prostitute died. I don't think he had a choice but to trust her.

#162

SydNC

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 9:20 PM

I don't think he had a choice but to trust her.


LaGuerta is like one of those Cash Advance/Check Cashing places. You KNOW it's a bad idea, but sometimes, in a pinch or an emergency, it's your only option. He had a dead hooker on his hands, he knows LaGuerta plays ball. He probably knew it was wrong, but needed something done NOW and would just deal with LaGuerta later, which he did with the promotion.

However, LaGuerta is running a big risk here. If too much gets out about Matthews and his indiscretions and his reputation is totally trashed, he now has nothing to lose by revealing some of LaGuerta's skeleton's, which I would just assume he might know a few of them.

#163

SteakHead

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Posted Dec 16, 2011 @ 1:32 AM

THat incest thing was so uncomfortable to watch. I didnt mind the therapist broaching it. But the dream thing was such a freaking cliche in movies.

#164

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Posted Dec 16, 2011 @ 2:48 PM

But the dream thing was such a freaking cliche in movies.


I thought that was the point--to show how Deb's thinking is somewhat romanticized and not at all grounded in reality. It was also interesting to see Dexter through her perspective. He was demure, attentive, and affectionate--even before the kiss. MCH has great range as an actor--maybe he will get a gig that will actually let him show it one day. The dream was telling though, of just how far off Deb's perception of Dexter really is, and how she filters out so much of his aloofness.

#165

LevitateMe

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Posted Dec 16, 2011 @ 5:58 PM

However, LaGuerta is running a big risk here. If too much gets out about Matthews and his indiscretions and his reputation is totally trashed, he now has nothing to lose by revealing some of LaGuerta's skeleton's, which I would just assume he might know a few of them


such as that most recently LaGuerta blackmailed him into giving her a job?? Regardless of his activities, blackmail is illegal. I mean god knows the list is a mile long of the skeletons she has in her closet based on the things we've heard about her throughout the years/seen in some cases (ex: her screwing the fiance of the replacement LT in S2) but I would think Matthews or someone might be interested in letting people know that she didn't gain her newfound position through merit and hard work. They even hinted in the premiere this season that something seemed wierd about how chummy they were during her promotion cermeony-- i mean, Deb and Masuka noticed for sure.

Then again hoping that an idea thrown out there in Ep1 would be followed up on in the finale... er, I don't think so this year.

#166

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Posted Dec 16, 2011 @ 6:34 PM

Speculation about the finale doesn't belong in here. There's been a lot of that going on. Take it to the Speculation Without Spoilers thread, please.

Edited by TWoP Tennison, Dec 16, 2011 @ 6:36 PM.


#167

darkestboy

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Posted Dec 17, 2011 @ 10:05 AM

I liked this episode more than the last two but seriously - an incest angle for Deb and Dexter? This show doesn't need to go down that route at all. That came out of fucking nowhere.

Deb - I wouldn't have held it against if she had dobbed Matthews in but the fact that he didn't consider Maria could've done it is mind boggling. Maria became a bigger bitch in this episode than before.

Nice that Quinn rescued Angel from Travis but it still doesn't make up for his stupidity for most of the season.

Saw Travis outsmarting Dexter coming a mile off though. Good final scene with the lake of fire though.

Louis and the hand - there's an interesting plot that next season will probably explore more of.

Here's hoping the finale delivers, 8/10.

#168

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Posted Dec 18, 2011 @ 12:59 AM

I just added my own inference that LaGuerta must have somehow set it up so it looked like Deb and not her ratting him out. He didn't get ratted out till after he took out Deb. LaG probably suggested the dinner to him as a way of winning Deb over, so she probably came to him before he even heard officially and apologized because she heard that he'd been exposed. While the Captain should know that LaG is completely untrustworthy, he's feeling vulnerable and she's good at the pretend friend thing. He may be suffering a little Stockholm syndrome.

#169

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Posted Jan 30, 2012 @ 5:28 PM

That's an interesting point. Although by that logic, homosexual couples are hurting any children they adopt because their kids might be mocked. When interracial couples first married and their children were mocked and made outcasts in school, were the parents to blame? Same principle.

It'd be the people that made Harrison a pariah that would be the one's doing the hurting, not Dexter. I refuse to blame someone for the intolerance of others.


"" Post of the year! Thanks for the sensible, respectful and educated post.

I don't understand why the incest word is being thrown around here when it doesn't come close to the proper definition of incest.

*Sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other.
*The crime of having sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild.

They are none of the above. Period.
Yes, they were raised together, but having TWO DIFFERENT biological parents does not incest make.

How do I feel about this possible relationship between Dex and Deb? I hate it. It still doesn't make it incest, nor does it make it morally wrong in any way, shape or form.

IMO its simple: If I don't like certain aspects of any given show, I turn it off and don't ever watch it again. I have choices that are very easy to make. As a grown up, it is my decision.

#170

gypsy landslide

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Posted Jan 31, 2012 @ 5:54 PM

It's been stated multiple times that the law includes adopted siblings in its definition of incest in Florida.

#171

Vandal

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 1:23 PM

Yes, they were raised together, but having TWO DIFFERENT biological parents does not incest make.

Even if not biologically related, there's still the Westermarck effect, the aversion to romantic relationships between children raised together.

In Taiwan, a study of arranged marriages where the groom's family adopted the future bride in her childhood revealed they had more marital problems than marriages whose husband and wife didn't grow up together.In studies of Israeli kibbutzim, children growing up in the same group basically never married nor had premarital relations with each other when they got older.

(Edited to sound less pedantic)

Edited by Vandal, May 10, 2012 @ 10:30 PM.


#172

whoislouis

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Posted May 4, 2012 @ 12:53 AM

Can anyone tell me what Masuka meant when he called agent Hubbard an Amazon?
She doesn't seem tall, strong or in any way hot to me. Is this just a funny way of showing Masuka's weird taste? Thanks!