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4-14: "To Be, Part 2" 2011.12.06 (recap)


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#151

ShakeYerBoobs

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Posted Dec 10, 2011 @ 7:38 AM

I like the idea of Juice's (yes, Chibbs, "Juicy Boy's") father being on the other team. Good looking out on that.

The CIA most certainly can and does operate in the U.S. They're not supposed to operate in the U.S. against U.S. citizens. Otherwise it's Katie bar the door. Also, they're not in the law enforcement business, so jurisdiction gets kind of iffy. What is jurisdiction when you're not arresting anyone? Also again, people who say and even prove they're CIA may not be. When the NSA puts people aboard a ship like the U.S.S. Pueblo for instance, the person in charge might be ostensibly a low ranking petty officer or corporal.

If these guys really are CIA, they're helping the Sons, helping the Irish, and helping Galindo. Hard to see how that's outside their charter (The National Security Act of 1947). Yeah, Romeo and the other guy shot some people. Self-defense while undercover. Whoever mentioned Mena was spot on. Anyone ever heard of Eugene Hasenfuss?

Whoever mentioned that AUSAs don't do investigations, good thinking. I don't recall ever seeing Mr. Potter's credentials. How do we know he is who he says he is? His whole look screams "there's something going on here!"

I got through that whole thing without mentioning "Fast and Furious". As Frank Zappa said back in 1965 "It can't happen here."
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#152

doomblade403x

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Posted Dec 10, 2011 @ 8:43 PM

Having a hand in controlling the drug trade on the U.S./Mexico border is not deemed a national security issue. Drug trade is a criminal organization, and criminal organizations fall under the pervue of the FBI. If a CIA operative is sponsoring a deal allowing the traffic of guns and drugs across this border, then it is not a deal signed off by the United States Government. It's a rogue agent lining his own pocket and using his station as an operative to do so. Guns and drugs entering our borders do nothing except put the american people at risk and destabalize the government. This happened during the Vietnam war as CIA operatives brought craptons of Asian Heroin into the country. Mostly what CIA operatives in this country do is crunch data. If they are actual spies then they are usually working operatives from other nations. Unlike Burn Notice spies are not crime fighters.

Funny RL story: When I was a uniform officer I went to a class taught by the FBI. It was a really long time ago and I can't remember exactly what the class was, but I remember one thing that stood out. One of the officers asked about PC on traffic stops and the Fed teaching the class had no idea. They don't do traffic stops....so why the hell would they know anything about them? Kindof a pointless story except to highlight that every organization has different rules, guidelines, and methods of doing business. They knew about wire taps, we knew about search and seizure during car stops. Who knows all the funky crap the CIA and all the other covert spy agencies use.

Well not only did Romeo's Lt. shoot some guys in 'self defense' but he was also going to execute Laroi's whole crew in Oakland, and he stabbed a alledged Mayan informant in the throat. That guy is a cold blooded killer. Our operatives haven't had that kind of power since Reagan was in office. According to Navy SEAL Richard Marchinko, Clinton took away the power many of our operatives abroad had in handling threats. In other words you can't kill the spies from an enemy nation without a go signal from the higher ups.

Honestly I miss the Reagan era. Good stability economically and the other nations knew we would retaliate if they hurt our president's feelings.

I went from thinking Potter was some kind of loon to loving him the last episode. He might have lost all he worked for, but he did something good before walking out the door. And yeah your right. I don't think he ever flashed a set of credentials. He told people he was an AUSA and that was as far as it went.
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#153

Kel Varnsen

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Posted Dec 11, 2011 @ 1:01 AM

Having a hand in controlling the drug trade on the U.S./Mexico border is not deemed a national security issue. Drug trade is a criminal organization, and criminal organizations fall under the pervue of the FBI. If a CIA operative is sponsoring a deal allowing the traffic of guns and drugs across this border, then it is not a deal signed off by the United States Government.


It wasn't directly to do with the drug trade on the U.S./Mexico border. I thought they said something about how a Mexican drug war could destabalize the mexican government,especially if the wrong cartel won. I can see how that would be a national security issue. As far as jurisdiction, didn't one of the guys in the hummer say cancelling the bust had been cleared with someone at a much higher level (although the scene was still stupid)

What happens to Otto now? Even though the RICO case didn't make, Bobby is still going down thanks to Otto and the club deals harshly with rats.


Remember in season 1 when Otto bashed Stahl's face in. That was over RICO, and Otto knew how it worked then. The nice thing about a RICO case is you can built a case on crimes where the statute of limitations on the actual crime has expired (since all you are proving is that they are a criminal orginization). Depending on how long Otto is in jail maybe that is all the stuff he ratted about.
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#154

BakerX2

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Posted Dec 11, 2011 @ 1:20 AM

IIRC Otto only gave up stuff that he did for the club in prison (which got him more time added to his sentence and ultimately got him on death row), not to mention the implication that he mainly implicated Bobby.

His fate and the status of what he gave up, may hinge on what happens to Potter and if Bobby/Otto's case is taken from him and whether or not the CIA will demand Bobby be given a free pass in order to keep SAMCRO happy in order to keep the IRA happy.

On the surface, the CIA can't just make Bobby's arrest/Otto's confession as part of a RICO case disappear. It would draw way too much attention towards the fact that SAMCRO is being protected by someone and risk exposing everything. Same with letting Bobby out, especially since having Otto mysteriously die would again, draw suspicions, especially if Potter is pissed off like he is now. If he could out Mayor Hale, I would not put it past him to go public with the CIA/Cartel alliance, damn the consequences to his career and potential imprisonment.

The best bet would be if they just super-speed up Otto's execution date, have him be executed, and basically let Bobby go after the fact now that Otto is dead and can't testify in court. The state kills Otto, effectively solving everything for the bad guys and the CIA.
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#155

doomblade403x

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Posted Dec 11, 2011 @ 7:18 AM

BakerX2: You sir bring up an excellent point. However I seem to recall Otto's testimony was vital to building his RICO case. You were however wrong on one thing. When Otto began speaking to Potter he talked about a truck hijacking he did with the Sons. Bobby might have been front and center in most of his statements, but I'm sure the reports indicated the Sons as a whole. If the whole case is gone Otto's deal would pretty much be null and void. As soon as folks found out he rolled he would be a target for anyone in the joint and his execution would be fast tracked with a shank.

Something in my gut tells me Otto and Bobby still have some stuff to play out and it will likely last a good portion of the next season. I honestly believe not many in the club would blame Otto for what he did. With the Luann situation and how poorly they played their cards under Clay's direction it would be easy to think you were just their monkey in the joint who did their dirty work, and did nothing for him in return. Jax even said that if there was ANYTHING that could roll Otto it would be Luann.
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#156

TWoP Howard

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Posted Dec 12, 2011 @ 3:46 PM

Letís get back to talking about this show, this episode, please. There are other threads to speculate in, so please move that discussion there.

Also, considering how little we actually saw or know of what the CIA is doing, most of that discussion has either been speculative, or a lecture on the operations of the CIA, which is a topic well beyond the scope of this thread. Thanks.

The recap is up.

#157

Crow37

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Posted Dec 12, 2011 @ 4:16 PM

We get a shot of Gemma's face, and she looks as if she's seen her life pass in front of her eyes. And in a way, she has: Tara is standing behind Jax in the same posture she stood behind JT thirty-odd years ago. And, as in the picture, Tara is staring at someone she perceives as threatening, while Jax sits at the head of the table, wearing a trapped look.


I must have missed it...who was Gemma staring at in the picture?
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#158

sobell

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Posted Dec 12, 2011 @ 5:50 PM

We don't know: All we saw in the picture was Gemma giving someone the Death Glare off-camera. The big difference in this case is that we know who Tara's glaring at.

#159

Crow37

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Posted Dec 12, 2011 @ 6:25 PM

Ah, I see. Thanks for the response and for the great recaps of shows, Sobell.

Maybe you'll get some of that preferential treatment for next season...just don't forget to drop us a spoiler or two if/when you get 'em...
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#160

MissStanwyck

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Posted Dec 13, 2011 @ 4:38 PM

Maybe someone can answer this for me, because it's been bugging me...

When Jax told Tara he "had to stay", did he mean indefinitely? Or just until the gun deal was finalized? Was he telling her to go to Oregon with their kids for good and planning to stay in Charming, completely estranged from them? And WHY did he frame it as "I can't let my club die"? I mean, to me, that certainly wasn't the most compelling of the (contrived) reasons he had to stay. Higher up on the list would be, "if I don't stay, everyone I know, including myself, goes to prison for many, many years." I was kind of irked that he was basically telling Tara that the MC was more important than his own sons.

Re: the Wendy/Abel issue, if Tara has custody, she could very well be allowed to take Abel to another state. Thus far Wendy has not filed for visitation, and she granted Tara full custody over a year ago. Based on what we know if their custody arrangement, taking him across state lines would probably be permissible.

ETA: As far as Tara endangering her sons by staying, well, at this point I don't think they're safe even if they did go to Oregon. It's not like rival cartels, or the Niners, or (insert enemy here) couldn't easily find them. The only 'safe' thing to do would be to either go into some sort of witness protection plan, or to leave the country. Plus, I doubt Gemma would have sat idly by and let Tara take Abel and Thomas without a fight...

Edited by MissStanwyck, Dec 13, 2011 @ 4:42 PM.

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#161

Dirndl

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Posted Dec 13, 2011 @ 6:01 PM

MissStanwyck, I could hug you right now! I didn't get the 'had to stay' part either and thought it was because English isn't my first language and I had misunderstood something. Therefore, I am glad someone else has the same questions regarding that scene and the same problem with what it means for Jax's commitment towards his family.

As a Maggie fan I am happy that Tara stayed because I wouldn't watch the show without her. As a Tara fan, I really wish we could have seen how and why she decided to stay and how she justifies the fact her kids will now grow up in the club environment surrounded by crime and violence. Well, maybe in season 5...

I also like the fact that with this episode Tara is the one character who knows everything. She is in on every secret, she knows about all the letters, Gemma's involvement in the death of Jax's father, everything Clay has done, the CIA, Piney's death and Jax's plan to leave the club. It will be interesting to see how this will play out for her in the next season.
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#162

Snookums

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Posted Dec 13, 2011 @ 7:41 PM

When Jax told Tara he "had to stay", did he mean indefinitely? Or just until the gun deal was finalized? Was he telling her to go to Oregon with their kids for good and planning to stay in Charming, completely estranged from them? And WHY did he frame it as "I can't let my club die"? I mean, to me, that certainly wasn't the most compelling of the (contrived) reasons he had to stay. Higher up on the list would be, "if I don't stay, everyone I know, including myself, goes to prison for many, many years." I was kind of irked that he was basically telling Tara that the MC was more important than his own sons.


Yep, that confuzzled me too, at first. What's wrong with just saying "I'm going to spend my life in prison if I don't do what the CIA says?" I mean Tara obviously would figure that out but the whole "I can't let the club die" thing... to me it was basically Jax finally being really honest with Tara. He could make it about the whole "ending my days in some Supermax cell" scenario, and that wouldn't be lying, but it wouldn't be the whole truth. The whole, real truth is that Jax is what his family, associates, and Charming have molded him to be--purely a creature of the club. He doesn't want to be, he tried hard not to be, he may even NOT be at some future date, but right now, there's no use pretending. Every time he's tried to rebel he ends up right back where he started, and the only thing he ends up with each time is more damage and pain to everyone he loves. The price for rebellion has gotten too high to pay.

Tara stayed because of that honesty. As I said in an earlier post, if Jax had lied or equivocated or tried to make it only about the outside forces coming for the club, she could have drawn on that abstraction for the strength to leave. It would have been the space between breaths she needed to separate just enough to focus, think, run.

But he was honest with her, the way no one in his family has ever been honest with the one they love. He didn't try to come up with a way to evade or duck or sneak away from the real truth--he can't leave, he knows she has to. I know you can't stay, I love you so much. And--Tara stayed. Jax got, from telling the truth, what his mother and Clay and the entire club had been lying to achieve for twenty years; a partner who will fully support him, back him, without any need for editing or fabrication.
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#163

cal

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Posted Dec 14, 2011 @ 3:32 PM

I had a total WTF moment when Jax went to the cemetery and his rings from Season 3 were still sitting on top of JT's grave stone. Is there no thievery in Charming? Or how about just a stiff fucking breeze that might have blown them off? But, no...there they were...just sitting neatly on top.
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#164

BakerX2

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 12:53 AM

When Jax told Tara he "had to stay", did he mean indefinitely? Or just until the gun deal was finalized? Was he telling her to go to Oregon with their kids for good and planning to stay in Charming, completely estranged from them? And WHY did he frame it as "I can't let my club die"?


Basically yes. Jax was in a situation where he has no choice but to stay in Charming and basically continue the alliance with the cartel/IRA and that meant throwing away his chance of escaping Charming once and for all, and this meant becoming the club's President.

The combination of Clay's injury and his betrayals being revealed make it impossible for Jax to just hand the mess off to him and moreso, Jax has to keep Clay around to appease the Irish, which in turn appeases the cartel and the CIA. That will be a full-time job and Jax will have to commit body and soul to the club.

Him telling Tara to take the kids to Oregon was him giving Tara an out to the madness he is now irreversibly bound to, as well as give an out to his kids to ensure they don't follow their father's footsteps. He was doing what Margaret has been wanting Tara to do, get the fuck out of town. But in the end, Tara threw it away because she can't live without Jax.

As for his comment about the club dying, he was being literal. Potter has the gang dead to rights on RICO and moreso, and this is what Jax doesn't know but Juice DOES know, which is the fact that Potter could use said RICO indictment to wipe out ALL of the SAMCRO charters across the US. With the exception of the Ireland branch, ALL members of SAMCRO, in the US, will be busted and sent to jail for life and the club will be no more.

Moreso, there is the fact that the Cartel, if they get pissy or something happens to Clay to ensure the IRA pulls out of their alliance, would kill off the SAMCRO Charming branch off themselves and also kill off their loved ones. Bye-bye Tara, bye-bye Wendy, bye-bye Gemma, bye-bye everyone's kids, bye-bye Happy's mom, bye-bye Fionna, bye-bye Hal Halbroock, and so forth.

So yeah, Jax can't leave without causing massive massive live ruining catastrophe towards EVERYONE in the club, let alone everyone who wears the SAMCRO cut in the US. A massive weight is now on his shoulders that will force him to keep Clay alive and while not phrased as bluntly as it needed to be, was properly spelled out to Tara.
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#165

MissStanwyck

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 9:26 AM

First, thanks so much for explaining it to me!

MissStanwyck, I could hug you right now! I didn't get the 'had to stay' part either and thought it was because English isn't my first language and I had misunderstood something. Therefore, I am glad someone else has the same questions regarding that scene and the same problem with what it means for Jax's commitment towards his family.

As a Maggie fan I am happy that Tara stayed because I wouldn't watch the show without her. As a Tara fan, I really wish we could have seen how and why she decided to stay and how she justifies the fact her kids will now grow up in the club environment surrounded by crime and violence. Well, maybe in season 5...

I also like the fact that with this episode Tara is the one character who knows everything. She is in on every secret, she knows about all the letters, Gemma's involvement in the death of Jax's father, everything Clay has done, the CIA, Piney's death and Jax's plan to leave the club. It will be interesting to see how this will play out for her in the next season.


Dirndl, now I will cyberhug you back, because you echoed my sentiments EXACTLY. I'm relieved that Tara stayed, and even more relieved that she wasn't mortally wounded, but at the same time I feel so badly for her that she is so trapped in this hell. Of all of the characters, I feel the worst for her, because she had the chance and the potential to have a completely different kind of life. Without Maggie, however, I wouldn't have continued to watch the show. Of any actor on the show, to me her performance is the most nuanced, multi-layered and completely heartbreaking. I started watching because of her (I was so upset when she left Mad Men).

Tara stayed because of that honesty. As I said in an earlier post, if Jax had lied or equivocated or tried to make it only about the outside forces coming for the club, she could have drawn on that abstraction for the strength to leave. It would have been the space between breaths she needed to separate just enough to focus, think, run.

But he was honest with her, the way no one in his family has ever been honest with the one they love. He didn't try to come up with a way to evade or duck or sneak away from the real truth--he can't leave, he knows she has to. I know you can't stay, I love you so much. And--Tara stayed. Jax got, from telling the truth, what his mother and Clay and the entire club had been lying to achieve for twenty years; a partner who will fully support him, back him, without any need for editing or fabrication.


Snookums, thank you so much. You made it so much easier for me to understand - and even reconcile - both of their actions in this episode. After watching, I felt frustrated that everything they had been through, Jax seemed to be throwing it away because SAMCRO mattered more. Now I understand more that he felt his hands were tied, and that we did by telling her to go was in fact making the ultimate sacrifice for her, and for his sons.

Moreso, there is the fact that the Cartel, if they get pissy or something happens to Clay to ensure the IRA pulls out of their alliance, would kill off the SAMCRO Charming branch off themselves and also kill off their loved ones. Bye-bye Tara, bye-bye Wendy, bye-bye Gemma, bye-bye everyone's kids, bye-bye Happy's mom, bye-bye Fionna, bye-bye Hal Halbroock, and so forth.

So yeah, Jax can't leave without causing massive massive live ruining catastrophe towards EVERYONE in the club, let alone everyone who wears the SAMCRO cut in the US. A massive weight is now on his shoulders that will force him to keep Clay alive and while not phrased as bluntly as it needed to be, was properly spelled out to Tara.


BakerX2, thank you. In a way I wish Jax had phrased it as you just did, but I finally get it.

Sorry this is so long, but you guys are awesome and I needed to properly thank you ;-)

Edited by MissStanwyck, Dec 15, 2011 @ 9:56 AM.

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#166

Kel Varnsen

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 10:56 AM

I had a total WTF moment when Jax went to the cemetery and his rings from Season 3 were still sitting on top of JT's grave stone. Is there no thievery in Charming? Or how about just a stiff fucking breeze that might have blown them off? But, no...there they were...just sitting neatly on top.


I don't know they keep playing up charming as this quaint little small town where everyone knows everyone and you get your hair cut at the barber on main street. If that is the case and everyone knows about SAMCRO, I am not sure I can see anyone stealing anything off of John Teller's headstone. And the chances of some outsider theives just showing up in town and walking through a graveyard hoping to find something good to steal.
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#167

Snookums

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 2:35 PM

It bugged me a bit because my understanding of cemetary caretaking is that the groundsmen collect that stuff pretty regularly, just to keep the graves from becoming too cluttered. But as Kel Varnsen said, it's not like people roam small graveyards looking for swag, and most locals wouldn't steal from a SAMCRO grave, so I can handwave it.
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#168

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 7:14 PM

Usually I watch this show on delay as I don't regard it as appointment viewing like Breaking Bad, Homeland and Justified. Tonight I was so pumped for the resolution of all of the tension that I made an exception and hijacked the TV in my apartment complex social room. After viewing it live, I'm reminded of why this show isn't appointment viewing.

Totally agreed. I've been thinking "It's no Breaking Bad" as I watched. Not that BB is perfect, but at least they had guts to off you-know-who. And that was much better character than Clay.

All these people are gross and stupid and vile and I hope it ends badly for all of them, including Tara. But it's part of the fun that I am loving to hate them.

I think I kinda like Clay after this one though. If I were him, I'd be rolling my eyes. "Ok, I killed your father, your friend and tried to kill your wife, and you're demoting me. Demoting!" He must be wondering why did he bother to kill all these people to hide the letters.

I am glad that Clay didn't kill any of Jax's children because then Jax could get really mad and set his bike on fire or tell him not to show his face in the club for two straight weeks. "You killed my father! Prepare to... lose your top dog position! And I'll cut off your tag! So there!"
It reminded me how Clay beat the crap out of Jax's mother and Jax's reaction was to say "Some day soon we'll have to have a very serious conversation about that".

These people just take and take and if sometimes they snap (like Opie) they then calm down considerably. Kill their relatives, lie and manipulate, and after they let a little steam off they'll let bygones be bygones. I guess it's good for them that some of them are so rational and calm, but it's pretty bizarre when murderous bikers are more laid back than I would be.
When Jax said to Clay "Now I am telling you!" I expected Clay to reply "Oh, good, I thought you'd be killing me!'

I guess Clay's story is a life lesson in how important it is to make yourself indespensable.

I wish Jax wasn't a main character because otherwise Clay would kill Jax, kill Opie and rule the club again. I trust this man.

Jax: And I am telling you... that I am not going! And you, and you, and you, you're gonna love me!

They need to make SOA Musical episode.

All is forgiven though if Tara gets tired of wimpy Jax and finds herself some new "Clay" and backstabs him.

ETA: And I know it's been mentioned but gotta love how CIA not only traffics drugs, but also overlooks deals with IRISH TERRORISTS! I am sure UK government would be thrilled to know that USA's covert forces are directly responsible for irish terrotists getting RPGs or whatever they are called. Yay diplomacy! I also like how these CIA cretins announced this giant scandalous deal to a shitload of cops and other agents and then gave this intel to criminal Jax. I sure hope one of these people informs the press that US government allows traffic of guns and heroin onto US soil and aids IRA on spare time. Hello wikiLeaks.

PS. I cracked me up when Jax said to Gemma 'He won't hurt you anymore". And why wouldn't he? He killed Jax's father - nothing happened. He tried to kill Jax's wife and got her crippled - nothing happened. He beat the everloving crap out of Jax's mother - nothing happened. I guess maybe, just maybe, Clay won't fuck with Opie again, much, but I totally understand why poor dude is confused about all this shooting - he had Opie's wife killed, and nothing happened! And let's face it, Opie's already not trying to kill Clay once and for all, they'll likely be back to interacting again with a little coldness between them. These guys are bigger bitches than poor Beecher ever been, and like Keller would say "Charming didn't make you into bitches, you were born 'em".

Edited by Dallas Fan, Dec 16, 2011 @ 5:56 AM.

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#169

wonder1859

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Posted Dec 15, 2011 @ 7:54 PM

Jax: And I am telling you... that I am not going! And you, and you, and you, you're gonna love me!

They need to make SOA Musical episode.


Coffee, meet keyboard!

I would pay good money to see that. At least we know Katey can sing.
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#170

Dirndl

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Posted Dec 17, 2011 @ 3:11 PM

Thanks Snookums and BakerX2 for the explanations and MissStanwyck for asking the question and of course the hug.

Re-watching the episode with your posts in mind made me like the scene and Jax much more. I just wish we would have seen one or two additional Tara scenes in the finale to get to know more of her thoughts and emotions while making this huge decision. She just doesn't get enough screen-time in relation to the big role she plays in Jax's life IMO. Or maybe that's just the Tara-fangirl in me talking.
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#171

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Posted Dec 19, 2011 @ 12:13 PM

Re-watching the episode with your posts in mind made me like the scene and Jax much more. I just wish we would have seen one or two additional Tara scenes in the finale to get to know more of her thoughts and emotions while making this huge decision. She just doesn't get enough screen-time in relation to the big role she plays in Jax's life IMO. Or maybe that's just the Tara-fangirl in me talking.


Dirndl, once again you read my mind. Maggie Siff is SO brilliant, I really hope she gets more screen time next season. I was watching clips from Season 1 of Mad Men recently, and once again, I was competely awed by her performance -- just as with Tara on SoA, she completely BECOMES the character, body language, hand movements, facial expressions...I really just want to see more of her in season 5. I know that's my fangirl-ness talking too, but really, I think the last episode would have benefited from one additional scene in which we see Tara agonizing over the decision. Perhaps one in which she talked to Margaret/was confronted by Margaret, broke down and explained to her WHY she was staying. Or really, WHY she was unable to leave. I mean, we know why, but it would have created a richer picture if we heard/saw more of the dilemma it caused her.
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#172

nicepebbles

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Posted Jan 5, 2012 @ 7:28 PM

I'm of two minds when it comes to the S4 finale (finally have time to post about it).

On the one hand, the performances in my opinion were great and I do like the idea Damon Pope et al. Part of me didn't really want Jax and Tara to leave Charming. I want to see Jax try and turn the club around. I signed on for that. That was the whole point of S1, right? To just give up when IMO he didn't have to always bugged me. And at least some of the people got part of what they wanted - Opie at least to shoot Clay, Jax got to at least cut Clay in more than one way, Jax is Pres like Gemma's always wanted, Tara still has Jax.

On the other hand, way to make the last season not count. All the buildup for what amounted to nothing at the end of the day. The link to a review from way back - Sutter doesnt have the courage of his convictions - really nailed it for me as to why I wasn't completely happy with the finale. The morph thing really added to me being of two minds. It was bad enough that Tara came to church and they stroke that pose. Then to morph? I'm not an idiot. In that pose Tara looked really uncomfortable. There was nothing natural about it at all.

Honestly, when different folks here were talking about Galindo being Feds or whatever, I was like, "Are we watching the same show?" I didn't see it at all. So I was surprised when the CIA showed up.

The only other thing I want to say is in response to this:

badhabit: She found a minor reprieve when she escaped, but whatever she found in the outside world wasn't enough for Tara. And she had 10 years to find it. It's not like she doesn't know what being without Jax would be like. She could have taken those boys but the reality is she would have come back.

Unless I'm missing something or forgot something, we don't know anything about Tara's life outside Charming except she went to uni, went to med sch, then got a stalker for a BF. We don't know that what she found in the outside world wasn't enough. I'll put money on the fact that if Kohn wasn't crazy, she would still be in Chicago.

Just remembered that I read different places here that Tara doesn't have a career any more? Is the hospital in Providence (or is it called Providence?) still holding her job? Didn't Margaret say they were willling to wait out her recovery period? In any event, she can still have a career no matter what happens with her hand. So she could've left. I refuse to believe she couldn't. She didn't want to. Love isn't that strong. (Or maybe I just don't know what true love it. lol.)

One more thing: I like the idea of Juice's daddy being Damon Pope except isn't he in Jail?

Edited by nicepebbles, Jan 23, 2012 @ 5:17 PM.

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#173

rippleintime

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Posted Jan 10, 2012 @ 2:35 PM

I just re-watched this last night and one thing left me wondering. When Jax arrives in Clay's hospital room, Tig is sitting there with him. Jax asks for a minute, Tig leaves and Jax is left alone with Clay. He puts the cut on Clay's chest, he slices the patches off, he puts the knife to Clay's throat hard enough that it draws a significant amount of blood, he spits on him and he leaves. Are we to assume that Tig never goes back into the room? As far as we know, he only left to call the guys about church and would return once Jax left. If that's so and Tig didn't leave for church right then, Tig returns to a room with a bloodied, spit upon, conscious-of-what-just-happened Clay. If that's the case, does Tig know the circumstances that gave Jax the seat at the head of the table when he sees him later at church? In my first watch of this episode, I thought all lingering tension between Tig and Jax came from Tig's actions in Oakland and Jax's reactions, but if Tig knows that Jax took Clay's presidency from him literally at knifepoint, that's yet another interesting development in the state of things at the clubhouse.

Edited by rippleintime, Jan 10, 2012 @ 2:36 PM.

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#174

BakerX2

BakerX2

    Fanatic

Posted Jan 11, 2012 @ 5:54 PM

If Tig does know, I would assume that Clay probably has Tig on a short leash given that Jax just spared his life (buying him some time to figure out what to do next) and that sending Tig out to kill Jax would only make a horrible situation even worse.

Probably told him a sanitized version of what happened with several lies tossed in to avoid risking everything coming out into the open: that Jax effectively has stripped Clay of the Presidency/cut him up like he did, because of Clay beating Gemma like he did and Clay is passively going along with it due to his injuries making any sort of resistance futile at the time. Perhaps even imply out Piney as the guy who shot him, hence creating a new wrinkle towards the issue of Opie's standing in the club as far as sowing the seeds for Clay denying that he murdered Piney and ensuring that he can make it look like Opie and Jax are making shit up to discredit Clay as part of their coup.

He also probably told Tig to play nice, allow Jax to pick his own Sgt At Arms if he demands it, and to just be Clay's eyes and ears until he gets out of the hospital. Wait until Clay was strong enough to get revenge in other words.
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#175

ConstableClyde

ConstableClyde

    Channel Surfer

Posted May 8, 2012 @ 11:18 AM

This episode was seriously amazing. The final shot as well.
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#176

prop joe

prop joe

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Jun 9, 2012 @ 6:24 AM

The whole time I was watching the series I had problems with it. It doesn't seem like there are ever serious consequences to what Sons are doing, it always turns out, if not great, than not so bad. Piney is the only important character that died [and he wasn't really that important], Bobby is in jail but probably not for long. Everything turned out great for Juice too. Clay is demoted, even though he should be dead. All of that just makes me care less, or at least worry less, about any of them being in any real danger. And, to be honest, I don't think I like most of the characters. I mean, some of them are really fun to watch, Clay is fantastic and all that, but if I knew people like that, I'd want them all in jail. Juice is basically the only one there who feels like a fuck-up who had a bad life and ended up in a substitute for family. Others are basically sociopaths.

Gemma is, at this point, like a character from South American telenovelas. Tara... I like the actress, but Tara is turning into Jax's bitch, basically. Which is, I guess, normal within the universe of a motorcycle gang, but she started off as a strong woman, if I remember correctly, now she just follows her man. At a price of putting her kids in danger. But kids are extremely annoying in movies or tv shows anyway, so I'm fine with them being in danger.
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#177

Artsda

Artsda

    Fanatic

Posted Aug 20, 2013 @ 9:17 PM

I don't know what to think of this episode. I think the ending could have been so much better had it been just the guys at the table, voting Jax in. I also found the Clay living such a cop out after all the terror he's done. The rest of the guys don't even know Piney's dead yet.

The whole ending was leading up good until Gemma and Tara came in. That was just ridiculous to me. It was like Jax needed his 2 mommy's to hold his hand and the way Tara was holding onto him, just made him seem weaker as a leader to me. I also don't understand Tara at all considering she spent the entire season miserable and wanting to leave and now she's running in there to be the President's first lady.

 

I got the pose position with the flash back to show it's JT and Gemma, I just found it such overkill. So if Tara and Jax are a redo of them, will Tara fall in love with some other guy? Will Jax fall in love with someone else and have a secret family with them? They're destined to end up the same way, Jax dead and Tara a widow.

 

After this whole season, Tara should have been dead like 4 times already. I think keeping her alive contrively like they are doing with Clay is just getting old.


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