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Season 4's New Context: "It Is Impossible"


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#31

Money Magnet

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Posted Nov 27, 2011 @ 10:39 AM

Season 4 does have a built-in possible endpoint in case the show gets cancelled: Peter returns home to "his" people, and the amberverse is either destroyed by his decision, or continues on (which would make for two separate sets of "happily ever afters" (in shipper terms, I guess that would be Peter reunites with BlueLivia and YellowLivia rides off into the sunset with Lincoln).

I am not that familiar with Lost beyond the first season, so maybe someone else can comment, but it seems to me that the Fringe showrunners are trying to make each season now to be somewhat "modular" and self-contained, in that it tells one major arc that comes to a firm punctuation in the finale (albeit with continuation potential). That is, maybe they are storytelling season by season, with less of an eye on "the secret of the Island."
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#32

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Posted Nov 27, 2011 @ 12:52 PM

What I like the most about this Walter when compared to the one of my DVDs is that, not only it confirms to me his madness is what makes him a better man, but how his quiet desperation seems to exacerbate only when Peter is around.

Last season's Walter was a man searching for forgiveness, this season Walter is a man who already feels like he has been punished IMO. Peter's presence unbalanced him out because I think his son seems to be a prize he doesn't feel worthy of, which I think it's a neat contrast to Walternate (who has always seen Peter as an excuse for venagance IMO).

This universe's Walter is older and wiser. Less joyful (though not utterly so), but less prone to Blue Walter's "Italian Widow" act, also- a worrywartness that it took Walter all of season 3 to finally ditch

I've always thought it was about Peter figuring out this wasn't his father all along, once that Walter was free to be just a man who cared about a son that wasn't his own, Peter allowed himself to love him for the flawed person that he was IMO. This season Walter is almost the same man only a little wackier (because Peter was never part of his life), but Peter can't allow himself to love him at risk to unbalance him even more. Ironically, it seems Walternate might just get his son back after all, if only because the man who kidnapped him, doesn't remember him anymore.

The term " amber universe" is such a nice metaphor for what has happened this season

I think the Amber label stands out for the Amber quarantine implemented in the Red Universe, like the original quarantine, people in the Amber Universe are unavailable for the ones who love them, safe and sound but severed from the world until the time comes to actually fix things and go back to the Blue Universe.

Edited by agora, Nov 27, 2011 @ 12:55 PM.

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#33

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Posted Nov 27, 2011 @ 4:06 PM

The funny thing is, "Amber" is fan-coined; TPTB called it "Orange".

This season Walter is almost the same man only a little wackier (because Peter was never part of his life), but Peter can't allow himself to love him at risk to unbalance him even more.

If Peter wasn't allowing himself to love Walter, he wouldn't be so disappointed that his presence hurts the man. Amber Walter seems to feel that he deserves infinite punishment, that he deserves no good in his life. (I wonder if this was enforced; perhaps the "psychic surgery" referenced in the credits rather than the physical surgery of "Grey Matters"? The physical surgery seems unlikely as his memory of his wife and son are undisturbed.)
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#34

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Posted Nov 27, 2011 @ 5:01 PM

The funny thing is, "Amber" is fan-coined; TPTB called it "Orange".


Yes. The fan expectation of a yellow universe was so high (based on certain visual cues, or maybe just mentally extending the primary colors) that "yellowverse" or "amberverse" just happened all by itself.
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#35

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Posted Nov 27, 2011 @ 5:29 PM

I've always thought it was about Peter figuring out this wasn't his father all along, once that Walter was free to be just a man who cared about a son that wasn't his own, Peter allowed himself to love him for the flawed person that he was IMO. This season Walter is almost the same man only a little wackier (because Peter was never part of his life), but Peter can't allow himself to love him at risk to unbalance him even more. Ironically, it seems Walternate might just get his son back after all, if only because the man who kidnapped him doesn't remember him anymore.

If Peter wasn't allowing himself to love Walter, he wouldn't be so disappointed that his presence hurts the man.

Frankly, I think Peter can't help himself due to the parentalized nature of his relationship with him, Walter strikes me more of a child than a father for Peter and, if there's one thing parents are uncapable of, is to stop loving their children in any shape or form. Therefore, this "child" still feels as his own even if Walter himself no longer remember him the way that he does.

In a way, this is the ultimate Science fiction version of an open adoption to me: where Peter surrenders his child to the Universe hoping that, no matter what happens to him, the Universe would keep him safe and sound. Ironically, it was his actual child the one who disappeared, even though Walter himself is the one Peter is experiencing the conflict with.

Personally, I can't picture any case scenario in which a son walks in his father's shoes as perfectly as Peter Bishop is doing this season.

Edited by agora, Nov 27, 2011 @ 5:33 PM.

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#36

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Posted Nov 27, 2011 @ 6:28 PM

Yes. The fan expectation of a yellow universe was so high (based on certain visual cues, or maybe just mentally extending the primary colors) that "yellowverse" or "amberverse" just happened all by itself.


I thought people call it amber because that's the color of the opening credits, no?
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#37

agora

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Posted Nov 27, 2011 @ 7:28 PM

I thought people call it amber because that's the color of the opening credits, no?

At least that's why I do it (no idea this was supposed to be "orange" or "yellow" or anything other but amber).

Edited by agora, Nov 27, 2011 @ 7:28 PM.

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#38

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Posted Nov 27, 2011 @ 11:03 PM

I sort of thought we've been using "amber" because due to a combination the credits being "amber" colored and because of all the previous hints to yellow and, well, the "amber" that people get encased in. That is, I just assumed fans went with saying "amber" instead of "yellow" because the word was already part of the show's language. The fact that TPTB call/called it "orange" is both surprising and confusing. I wonder if that has anything to do with being asked about the possibility of showing other universes. Didn't TPTB get asked that a lot, and people were assuming that if it happened it'd be a "yellow" universe (due to all those hints) or purple, because we had a red and a blue universe? Maybe they went with "orange" because it was so different.
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#39

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Posted Nov 28, 2011 @ 10:36 AM

I think they call it orange because orange is the complementary color of blue, so it's kind of its opposite. (If you go by a color wheel, yellow and purple are also complements, as are red and green).

Edited by communistfiend, Nov 28, 2011 @ 12:31 PM.

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#40

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Posted Nov 28, 2011 @ 11:34 AM

I am not that familiar with Lost beyond the first season, so maybe someone else can comment, but it seems to me that the Fringe showrunners are trying to make each season now to be somewhat "modular" and self-contained, in that it tells one major arc that comes to a firm punctuation in the finale (albeit with continuation potential). That is, maybe they are storytelling season by season, with less of an eye on "the secret of the Island."


I think this view of Fringe is correct and reflects the fact that the show has consistently flirted with cancellation, so the showrunners expect each season to potentially be its last.

Lost on the other hand at first was a huge ratings success and had an openended committment from ABC - the controversy was when the Lost showrunners decided to set an endpoint several seasons out. So they knew they weren't going to be cancelled and could build the story a different way.
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#41

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Posted Nov 29, 2011 @ 3:08 PM

Major themes:
* Is this the old reality re-written or is Peter right about being in the wrong world
* Are most of our characters really better off without him?
* What's with this Olivia/Lincoln business?
* Are TPTB insane?

* I think it's the old reality re-written. They would have never left the original main characters (Walter and Olivia, of course) for more than one episode.
* Not most, all of them. Walter has only been worse, when Peter appeared to him and when he finally materialized. He went back to normal, as soon as he was sure he wouldn't have to see him again. Which begs the question, why did bring Peter back at all?
* True love, if the reuse of P/O scenes for L/O (and the more convincing attraction and warmth for Lincoln than for Peter on Olivia's side) is any indication. It wouldn't matter, because I don't think P/O was that central to the story and Olivia was never that much into Peter anyway, but I doubt the writers intend to stop the P/O thingy. It looks like they're going for another triangle. This time a conventional one.
* No.

More questions:
- What made Peter disappear? Was it a consequence of him rewriting the timeline (if that's what happened) or was it The Observers?
- Did he just build the bridge or did he create the new timeline? Was building a bridge the only purpose of his existence?
- Why do The Observers insist on correcting everything except September's Big Mistake?
- Why aren't Walter and Walternate working on healing the universes?
- Has September faced any consequences for not deleting Peter completely as ordered? Why haven't the other Observers finished the job?
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#42

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Posted Nov 30, 2011 @ 12:22 AM

In regard to major themes...I think I am from an alternate universe as compared to Indi (sorry I can't figure out how to do boxes):

Major themes:
* Is this the old reality re-written or is Peter right about being in the wrong world
* Are most of our characters really better off without him?
* What's with this Olivia/Lincoln business?
* Are TPTB insane?

My thoughts:

*I would personally love it if Peter could get back to the machine...maybe with Lincoln or his mothers help, turn the wheel a few degrees, and get back to "normal". Not sure that will happen, however. I think there is something that needs to be discovered in this " universe" or time eddy that is important to the whole arc of the story, important to really saving both worlds. But I also think that Peter and Olivia will find each other again (maybe with the help of her cortixephan activation...she can cross universes, after all) and that Walter will crazily 'remember' Peter or something. We need the old versions of these two back...can't stand the new ones (and I think three universes is too much to keep track!). I am happy to keep Lincoln, however. Just no triangle.

*They are all worse off without him! Peter had a profound impact on both Walter and Olivia and made them better better people by living. He gave them hope. I think the whole " it's a wonderful life" analogy is that Peters life had meaning to these two especially--something that his sarcastic first season lonely nomadic self would not have seen possible.

*Red herring. And I don't think he is matchmaking. P/O are essential to the story.

*No, they are brilliant.

So many good questions...

-I don't think this was the observers trying to snuff out Peter. I think the machine came down wrong. But why? And why is Peter important, anyway? Why was the observer IN Walternates lab in the first place? Seems like a little too easy to be noticed there. Was this distraction or mistake of Septembers really a mistake after all?

-I think Peter has a bigger significance in the story arc than just the tentative truce this bridge brings. If the series had ended after season 3, I could have lived with that...hero sacrifices himself to save the worlds, etc. But now that he is back, I really want a deeper explanation of this machine and a fuller look at the end games of Walter and Walternate. Because I do think they are very different, even before Peter was taken. There is more to this story.

-Agree. That is a good question.

-I have never been sympathetic of Walternate. I think was not the father that Walter was even at the time of the kidnapping (our Peter was closer to his mom prior to being brought over here to the Blueverse). I wonder what he knows of the machine that we don't know. I don't trust him.

-I think only the observer who interferes can correct the mistake. But I do wonder what will happen to September.
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#43

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Posted Nov 30, 2011 @ 10:51 AM

Something else that hasn't yet been addressed on the show, but I think is likely in context: The creation of the Bridge Room has either stopped or slowed down the degradation of both universes to the point that it's far less urgent than it was at the end of Season Three. Granted, it's been only, what? Three weeks? But nobody seems to be running around patching holes in reality with amber, sheep aren't getting sucked into vortexes (vortii?) and the only case set in the Red universe so far involved a serial killer, not filling holes in the universe with the fringey equivalent of Good Stuff.
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#44

Money Magnet

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Posted Nov 30, 2011 @ 10:58 AM

"Vortices."
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#45

FakeLocke

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Posted Nov 30, 2011 @ 1:56 PM

Something else that hasn't yet been addressed on the show, but I think is likely in context: The creation of the Bridge Room has either stopped or slowed down the degradation of both universes to the point that it's far less urgent than it was at the end of Season Three. Granted, it's been only, what? Three weeks? But nobody seems to be running around patching holes in reality with amber, sheep aren't getting sucked into vortexes (vortii?) and the only case set in the Red universe so far involved a serial killer, not filling holes in the universe with the fringey equivalent of Good Stuff.


This is a great point that is forgotten by many. We all miss our blue/red universes and The One Peter and OurLivia/FauxLivia, but we're forgetting that those universes were COLLAPSING. If Peter didn't create the Bridge to Amber, both universes were on a course to destruction.

So, the only person who ultimately loses in the AmberVerse (besides the shippers) is Peter. The needs of the many universes outweighs the needs of the few (or The One Peter). So, if they resurrect the blue universe, we're all going to die and Olivia is going to eat a bullet from Walternate.
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#46

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Posted Nov 30, 2011 @ 2:10 PM

So, if they resurrect the blue universe, we're all going to die and Olivia is going to eat a bullet from Walternate.


Yep. That's why I think this new world we've seen in season 4 is THE new world, thus my disappointment in how blah these first seven episodes have been.

While I understand the need to "set up" a new season, there hasn't been a lot of forward motion on any front.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think there's any "going back." And I think the whole "take Olivia, Lincoln, and I'll be happy for her because she's not MY Olivia" will prove to be the impetus of another heartbreak for Peter. Eventually, he'll realize that she IS his Olivia and he's given her away, emotionally. It'll be part of the season-ending drama.

No going back. I just wish where we are was more compelling.
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#47

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Posted Nov 30, 2011 @ 4:40 PM

I don't think Lincoln and Olivia will get anywhere given how the writers have blocked every potential development. Plus there will be a stretch of episodes where Lincoln will have a reduced presence in about three episode so that Seth can spend more time with his wife who is about to give birth.
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#48

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Posted Nov 30, 2011 @ 6:24 PM

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think there's any "going back."


My view would be if we go back, the idea of "what would the world be like without Peter" could have been handled in a much briefer arc of a couple of episodes, so why are we wasting time with this plot line - although the idea briefly explored is an interesting one.

If we're not going back, I agree the storyline is not as compelling as one built around the relationships we have known.
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#49

lojo5

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Posted Nov 30, 2011 @ 10:25 PM

This is a great point that is forgotten by many. We all miss our blue/red universes and The One Peter and OurLivia/FauxLivia, but we're forgetting that those universes were COLLAPSING. If Peter didn't create the Bridge to Amber, both universes were on a course to destruction.

So, the only person who ultimately loses in the AmberVerse (besides the shippers) is Peter. The needs of the many universes outweighs the needs of the few (or The One Peter). So, if they resurrect the blue universe, we're all going to die and Olivia is going to eat a bullet from Walternate.


I think this is a really good point, and I totally agree ...except for then WHY do we need to see Peter brought back? If he would have died, or been bleeped out of existence, died a martyr, this would make sense...but he must be back for a reason other than just so we can see how hard this would be for a character most fans love? What has brought him back? What purpose does he have now? (Hopefully not just the need for a triangle!)
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#50

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Posted Dec 1, 2011 @ 6:52 AM

So, the only person who ultimately loses in the AmberVerse (besides the shippers) is Peter. The needs of the many universes outweighs the needs of the few (or The One Peter). So, if they resurrect the blue universe, we're all going to die and Olivia is going to eat a bullet from Walternate.

Exactly, and Peter knew this, that's why he sacrificed himself. Then they showed how marvelous everything is without Peter and was quickly replaced, Walter and Olivia are completely unaffected by his existence or lack thereof. So why did they bring him back? To make it clear to the audience how unnecessary he is now or just as an excuse to have a character that remembers the last 3 seasons, so that nobody can complain about having wasted time watching them?

What has brought him back? What purpose does he have now? (Hopefully not just the need for a triangle!)

So far it looks like they brought him back, so that Lincoln and Olivia could have his blessings, blech! And to use him to give others character development, of course!

Maybe he has to sacrifice himself again, but without the emotional connection that held him back, only then everything will be alright?
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#51

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Posted Dec 1, 2011 @ 8:24 AM

I would counter that Olivia and Walter are VERY different without Peter. Walter is agoraphobic, paranoid and less caring and lighthearted. Olivia is bolder, more self-assured and self-aware. Without Peter's influence in the world, she openly questions her emotional depth, whereas in a world where Peter existed and Walter's 1980s experiments took a different turn, Olivia was more closed-off, even to herself.

I enjoy seeing things through Peter's eyes, now that's he's back.

He recognizes the differences in these versions of his loved-ones, though as I said, I think he's misguided to think they are different "people." They're just the same people without his influence.
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#52

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Posted Dec 1, 2011 @ 1:16 PM

I'm glad this topic has been started to get through the hiatus. Thanks!

* Is this the old reality re-written or is Peter right about being in the wrong world
* Are most of our characters really better off without him?
* What's with this Olivia/Lincoln business?
* Are TPTB insane?


Question 1 is IMO "the" question of the season, the central conflict. The problem I think many are having is that the conflict has been presented in such a lackluster way. It's a version of "It's a Wonderful Life" where it really didn't matter one way or the other if George Bailey/Peter Bishop ever existed. Some things are slightly different, some are much the same. There's no bold contrast and probably as a result, no real passionate momentum either for Peter to go home or find out he's already there. I'd like to think that's what they've planned for the rest of the season, and maybe if they'd aired on the original schedule, they could have set that up, but as it is, I'm feeling let down, like so many others.

Q2: They aren't better or worse off. It's basically a wash. That's the whole problem.

Q3: Big, bright red herring. The Peter/Olivia connection is as central to the Fringe mythology as the Peter/Walter connection, maybe even more central. At least based on seasons past. I don't think they're going for a triangle either, because there's no passion or suspense for either Olivia or Lincoln. I think it's just another way to explore Peter's belief that he's not in his own world, which will be directly impacted by his discovery of whatever the truth really is.

Q4: I don't think they're insane. I think they just tried to do something new that's falling a bit flat. I just don't know why they didn't create a more lively way to explore the question they seem to be setting up - basically "where is Peter?"

Someone mentioned that they have a natural end point built in to this season - with Peter going home. But that's only if they decide on that answer early on. The other alternative is that they'll need to keep that question open all season long - is Peter's "home" radically altered or is he a stranger in a strange land. Given how noncompelling they've made that question thus far, I'd like to see them pick a course and stick to it as soon as possible. Either Peter going home or Peter adjusting to this altered reality would be a preferable storyline to the passionless mush they've got going so far.
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#53

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Posted Dec 1, 2011 @ 1:45 PM

So, if Fringe walks a line between "silly" and "cerebral," would you say it's getting too cerebral - splitting fine hairs instead of being dazzling?

One criticism I do have is that the cases simply are not disgusting enough any more. I don't think that's a SFX thing, just... I really want to see an Itch Monster who makes its victims scratch their skin off. That would be extremely awesome.

Maybe there's less of an "awesome!!!!" factor this season? Which is not really related to quality per se, but fun?
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#54

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Posted Dec 1, 2011 @ 2:09 PM

I guess everyone's mileage may vary, but my one criticism of the first couple of seasons was that the MOW stories were often too disgusting. But it may be that the current season's MOW stories are too mundane as well.
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#55

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Posted Dec 1, 2011 @ 2:11 PM

I guess, for me, the season doesn't feel so much 'cerebral' as just self-indulgent and ponderous. I don't have to be "wow"ed every episode, but it would be nice to feel something rather than watching from a detached perspective where I acknowledge this "hey, what if he never existed?!" thing is a vaguely interesting intellectual exercise in theory, but (for me) makes for excruciatingly boring, passionless TV week after week.

Grinling nicely captured why it feels like there are no real emotional stakes. It's hard to see it resolving in any way that makes me feel in retrospect this journey was worthwhile, because the journey itself has IMO been so joyless and lackluster. As I've said, I'm all for challenging, intellectually stimulating TV, but entertainment shouldn't be medicinal.

Edited by MsTaken, Dec 1, 2011 @ 2:13 PM.

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#56

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Posted Dec 1, 2011 @ 2:15 PM

Passionless? Can't agree with that. The 2nd episode was among the best this series has ever had. Later, Walter lobotomizing himself... seeing Peter again and reacting to it... and I thought the most recent episode was pretty moving. No, I couldn't call it passionless.

One thing that is true of this season is that there is far less music, which according to Chris Tilton is a stylistic decision, not budgetary. Maybe that adds to a feeling of less emotion, for some.

I also couldn't call it ponderous: the end of last season was when it got ponderous (Walter's speech in the chapel, anyone?) It hasn't been exactly light and jokey, but they're not dealing with The End of the World this season either, which is sort of a relief to this viewer.

Like others, I'm in a wait and see where the journey goes, mode.

Edited by Money Magnet, Dec 1, 2011 @ 2:17 PM.

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#57

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Posted Dec 1, 2011 @ 3:32 PM

I could deal with passionless, I mean, Olivia is not that different in this timeline in that respect. I could even deal with how unaffected Walter and Olivia are by Peter's presence, but on top of that, they haven't addressed at all, what they've been promising all along and that bothers me. The promotion of S4 was focused on Peter and there was a this question, that was supposed to be the key for the season: "Where is Peter Bishop?" Of course, not only Peter wasn't the focus in the show, but the question became a huge "Who cares?"

Where he has been? What made him become a ball of energy and then materialize? Was he conscious all the time? And so on... Is anybody going to ask these questions? Not these pod people and their unnatural incuriosity. I could deal with Olivia's blank stares and Walter's petulance if they asked some questions at least. Not even Massive Dynamic is curious about a man that pops into existence just like that!

I could have done very well without the whiny heavy-handed lines about Peter's absence, particularly since the amber characters ended up being completely indifferent to him. This indifference has resulted in Peter being stuck in a weird limbo and because of that I haven't learned absolutely anything about him. That's what I was hoping this season, but instead I got the Olivia/Lincoln love woes.

If Peter is stuck in this flat emotionless world, I hope the excitement comes from other sources, interesting cases or a good villain like Walternate for example, because I don't think I'm looking forward to Peter bonding with these automatons.
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#58

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Posted Dec 1, 2011 @ 3:37 PM

I'm not feeling the "tension", I suppose is the word I'd use. If the writers want us to wonder if we're actually in the wrong universe, shouldn't they be trying to make us more alarmed? Or are we supposed to want to stay if it is in fact another universe (the same physical space) and not just a changed timeline (leaving aside the whole question of "is a changed timeline another universe"?).

Edited by Ulkis, Dec 1, 2011 @ 3:39 PM.

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#59

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Posted Dec 1, 2011 @ 3:54 PM

When we went to the redverse last year, it felt magical and fun. The blimps, the different skyline, the slightly askew details that signalled a slightly different history. It was intriguing, and the red versions of the characters were different in interesting ways - Walter more evil, Olivia more hardcore. This place, whatever it is, doesn't have anything interesting in it. There's nothing to ignite the imagination.

Indi has hit the nail on the head about Peter as well. What did he go through, both going and coming? Isn't he traumatized? Isn't he scared or worried? Doesn't he miss the people he loves? Wasn't this all his decision while he was in the machine? Does he remember making that decision? Does he regret it?

And how utterly pathetic to think you'd disappear from the lives of those you love ... and it didn't matter. Isn't he even sad about that?

I was on board through the first few episodes. I thought Walter's panic would be a natural lead in to the pandemonium that would ensue when Peter returned. But since Peter returned, Walter's almost been a non entity in the story. And Olivia's dreams? So many tantalizing possibilities, only to be instantly diverted into a bland attempt at an uninspired office romance.
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#60

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Posted Dec 1, 2011 @ 4:38 PM

And how utterly pathetic to think you'd disappear from the lives of those you love ... and it didn't matter. Isn't he even sad about that?


I'd say Walter's life is very different. And they kind of had that problem last year too - Olivia didn't seem to care that no one else noticed she had been switched, just that Peter hadn't.

So many tantalizing possibilities, only to be instantly diverted into a bland attempt at an uninspired office romance.


It's too bad they delayed the eighth episode - I have a feeling there's nothing bland about that one. sigh!

Edited by Ulkis, Dec 1, 2011 @ 4:39 PM.

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