Jump to content

Carol, the real lost little girl


  • Please log in to reply

1266 replies to this topic

#361

tvislife8

tvislife8

    Just Tuned In

Posted Jul 14, 2012 @ 12:49 PM

So I just watched the season 3 trailer from Comic Con, and to me it seems like the writers might be doing some more things with the character this season in terms of development, especially since there's a clip of her in the prison watch tower shooting zombies with a giant machine gun! So yeah, character growth please.
  • 0

#362

Doom

Doom

    Stalker

Posted Jul 14, 2012 @ 1:34 PM

I got the chills when I saw that. That was just the best. I think there was another scene where she was somewhat passive, but that brief instant of her looking right, presumably mowing down geeks, that was just the best. That trailer would go over well in a movie theater. Ripley would grin and nod approvingly. Damn that was awesome.
  • 0

#363

that one guy

that one guy

    Video Archivist

Posted Jul 16, 2012 @ 2:02 PM

One of the most positive aspects of the show being under new management is that women get to kill zombies now. Seeing Carol shooting a gun was just an immense relief. Hopefully Lori doesn't bitch her out afterwards for neglecting the laundry.
  • 0

#364

PartlyCloudy

PartlyCloudy

    Video Archivist

Posted Oct 21, 2012 @ 10:19 PM

I personally think Carol is attracted (romantically or not, don't know) to Daryl due to similarities with her husband. Daryl is mouthy, prejudiced, trailer park trash, hotheaded. He may not be a wife beater but more than likely he comes from a long line of them. I suspect Carol thinks she can rescue the frightened little boy inside and create something beautiful together. Dollars to donuts that's precisely how she ended up with Ed. Daryl is very familiar ground to her.

On a purely superficial note, I happen to love her hair. Her features are perfect for that type of hairstyle.
  • 0

#365

lulee

lulee

    Stalker

Posted Oct 21, 2012 @ 10:27 PM

I personally think Carol is attracted (romantically or not, don't know) to Daryl due to similarities with her husband. Daryl is mouthy, prejudiced, trailer park trash, hotheaded. He may not be a wife beater but more than likely he comes from a long line of them. I suspect Carol thinks she can rescue the frightened little boy inside and create something beautiful together. Dollars to donuts that's precisely how she ended up with Ed. Daryl is very familiar ground to her.

I agree that it's like that on first blush, but I think it's just as likely that Daryl and Carol have each grown out of some of their tendencies. She's less passive and meek than she used to be and it's been a while since we saw Daryl act like Ed.
  • 0

#366

visenya6

visenya6

    Couch Potato

Posted Oct 22, 2012 @ 8:57 AM

On a purely superficial note, I happen to love her hair. Her features are perfect for that type of hairstyle.

I like her because she's one of a kind. I mean, she lost her husband, she lost her daughter, she lost her home...in any other show this is the part where the character whose last name is not Winchester gets killed off. On The Walking Dead? This is the point where Carol's story actually begins: she makes a connection with the least expecting character, develops skills and fights for survival refusing to be defined as a mother, a sidekick or a victim.

I find her smart, interesting and, in her own way, a rebel. She's a unique character I've never seen before.

Edited by visenya6, Oct 22, 2012 @ 8:59 AM.

  • 0

#367

PartlyCloudy

PartlyCloudy

    Video Archivist

Posted Oct 23, 2012 @ 12:04 PM

Well, having watch season 3's first two episodes last night on Amazon I'm glad to see they've indicated enough time has passed for Carol and Daryl's growth to be semi believable to me, especially considering the circumstances. I do think, at least IRL, that she was initially turning to Daryl due to his Ed-likeness but I'm glad to see this season's changes.

Edited by PartlyCloudy, Oct 23, 2012 @ 12:05 PM.

  • 0

#368

MurlocGurgle

MurlocGurgle

    Channel Surfer

Posted Oct 24, 2012 @ 2:00 PM

I keep thinking Daryl is ElleeeOtt from E.T. so I thought Carol was too old for him but the actor is actually pretty old. I thought Carol was latching on to him because he's mean and she secretly enjoys being attached to someone like that. I think it was a bad Lady Macbeth (hello, Lori!) sign when she was whispering on Daryl's ear in the Season 2 Finale and when she almost shot Rick from the guard tower in this season's premiere. I got the feeling that she and Lori are angling for the top female spot in the power structure of the group. And that Glenn also has a girlfriend whispering in his ear from early in their relationship.

But it would be stupid to intentionally hurt Rick when he's necessary to the group's survival. It's interesting that the shooting gallery in the prison yard and practicing the C-section on the Lindsay Pulsipher zombie both echoed concentration camp atrocities as well as the accumulation of excrement and ensuing stench as a result of inadequate latrine facilities - in the commissary kitchen in the prison and an intentional design flaw in the Nazi camps.
  • 0

#369

Zyx

Zyx

    Video Archivist

Posted Oct 24, 2012 @ 2:34 PM

It's interesting that the shooting gallery in the prison yard and practicing the C-section on the Lindsay Pulsipher zombie both echoed concentration camp atrocities as well as the accumulation of excrement and ensuing stench as a result of inadequate latrine facilities - in the commissary kitchen in the prison and an intentional design flaw in the Nazi camps.


Not sure how this comment ties in with Carol but I don't think the writers/producers are making any explicit or implicit comparisons with Nazism or death camps. The prisoners were locked temporarily in an area without adequate toilet provisions. The guard presumably intended to come back to them with help but he never made it. The inadequate toilet facilities was not an intentional design flaw to make their lives more miserable.

Nor can Carole's dissection of a cadavre for medical purposes be compared to Mengele's atrocities. I doubt the utility of it - thinking that she would be better off practising on a recently dead animal rather than a long-dead human corpse - but not the intention.

Edited by Zyx, Oct 24, 2012 @ 3:35 PM.

  • 0

#370

visenya6

visenya6

    Couch Potato

Posted Oct 25, 2012 @ 11:25 AM

I'm glad to see they've indicated enough time has passed for Carol and Daryl's growth to be semi believable to me, especially considering the circumstances.

I know what you mean, its pretty hard to reconcile this flirtly, joyful, fairly visible and yet average looking couple with the tertiary characters introduced in the third or 4th episode of the marathon.

Carol was actually married to another person back then.

Edited by visenya6, Oct 25, 2012 @ 11:28 AM.

  • 0

#371

lawless

lawless

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 12:26 AM

Just posting to say that I actually like this new version of Carol -- not only does she now accept sniper duty, she stayed calm, cool, collected and useful in the Herschel situation, she had rye foresight and discretion to plan out ways to at least attempt to save Lori during labor -- long gone is the weepy dishrag who contributed nothing but household chores. I never would imagined it. I love the time jump, it allowed the characters to make huge, positive developments so I can like them, Carol especially. I assume the characters still gave flaws, but I no longer feel like some of them, such as Carol, are completely made up of flaws. Crossing my fingers for Andrea too!
  • 0

#372

Zyx

Zyx

    Video Archivist

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 1:47 PM

I feel that the writers cheated. Instead of showing the process of Carol becoming self-reliant, they have given us the end product. The story that Carol's fans have repeatedly said that they wanted - the story of her coming out from the shadows of her abuse, gaining confidence, and finding the courage to take responsibility and make her own decisions - hasn't been shown on screen at all. What we've been given isn't character development but a total personality make-over.

How did the Carol we saw in the very last episode - the dishonourable one who whispered malice in the dark - become the reliable paramedic/sharp shooter she is today? A huge leap but all the audience gets is - "seven and a half months later".
  • 0

#373

Doom

Doom

    Stalker

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 2:19 PM

A great point. Same thing with Carl. I like that Carol is useful now, but I do feel like we got robbed of watching it happen.
  • 0

#374

JOnanGoopta

JOnanGoopta

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 2:23 PM

I wouldn't really have wanted to suffer through an entire Season 3 that consisted of nothing but character development to turn a bunch of intolerable, moronic, yappy survivors into what we have now. I was already sick enough of that set of characters I was considering not even tuning in for this season.

Any more of that shit would have been intolerable to me.

I'm just glad they did it, and if it involved a little bit of waving a magic wand, I'm okay with it.
  • 1

#375

Ocean Chick

Ocean Chick

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 2:32 PM

I'm sure TPTB would have shown us the progression. Exept for the fact that Chandler is growing at such a rate that they had to account for the difference in his looks somehow, and the time warp leap was really their only option. And we'll see it again and again as they go on hiatus between seasons. Because Carl, being one of the main characters, can't really be re-cast using a younger actor. It's a pity, but there it is. I'm more than happy to have the characters use dialogue to explain the differences. Carol was a grieving mother in a stressful situation who had just found out that some vital information was deliberately withheld from the group. Of course she's going to question Rick's motives. As did Maggie. I was actually impressed that Carol had grown enough to even speak her opinion - a BIG personal growth step for her character, who had been beaten down so much that she didn't think her opinion was worth speaking (remember when Ed told her that she couldn't give Carl any of their food? She didn't put up much fight or argue with him.).

So I can cut the writers some slack. Of course I've always enjoyed the character of Carol, so that helps. Some of those that don't like her would probably prefer that she remain the same so that they can still dislike her. To each their own.

the dishonourable one


How does questioning leadership earn you the title of "dishonorable"? I've always questioned our government, whether Democratic or Republican, when I think they're making bone-head moves. Does that mean I'm without honor? When my boss does something I think isn't right, and I question her, am I dishonored? Rick, a man she's only known a few months at best (and probably only a few weeks really), withheld vital information from the group, and that made Carol feel uneasy. What else wasn't he telling them? But she stuck around long enough for Rick to earn her respect. And she's a big enough woman to admit that she's changed her mind on him and that he IS a decent leader.
  • 1

#376

HWavoidance

HWavoidance

    Couch Potato

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 3:13 PM

I think it's that she was questioning whether Rick had honor.
  • 0

#377

Zyx

Zyx

    Video Archivist

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 3:23 PM

I think that Carol acted dishonorably in avoiding responsibility while blaming others for the decisions that they had to make without her contribution. She spread malice in the shadows, whispering in Daryl's ear that Rick was "without honour" instead of talking to Rick directly. She has a perfect right to disagree with Rick's leadership and to question it. However, trying to undermine him by stealth was not the honourable way to deal with those concerns.

Does that mean I'm without honor? When my boss does something I think isn't right, and I question her, am I dishonored?


No, but you aren't talking about her behind her back, the way that Carol was.
  • 0

#378

lawless

lawless

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 3:27 PM

There definitely seemed to be a current of Carol resents Rick going on last season, at least to me, and it really seemed to come out verbally to Daryl in the Season 2 finale, at least in my opinion, and things are different now without letting us see the process. But I am hoping they will make judicious use of flashbacks to flesh that out a little. Also, there was the little bit where she almost shot him, and apologized, but (comically) in a way where it made me wonder just a bit about the old resentment -- and Rick's expression was pretty comically suggesting that too, just a bit. The characters have made big shifts, and sometimes I do want to see it, but for me things were bad enough that I'm willing to just accept reasonably logical changes and move on.

On a different note, something that occured to me as really sad is that this group, they way they handle things now, would probably not have lost Sophia. Unfortunately they adapted to the well oiled machine they seem to be now a little too late for her. I wonder if this haunts Carol, and if so, I sympathize with her.
  • 0

#379

visenya6

visenya6

    Couch Potato

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 4:09 PM

She spread malice in the shadows, whispering in Daryl's ear that Rick was "without honour"...trying to undermine him by stealth was not the honourable way to deal with those concerns.

I wish to know exactly how much influence Carol does have on Daryl?

I'm only asking because you make it sound like he would kill, torture or worse if she would only say the word and, while I do see a certain fondness between them, I'm not sure if she really has that kind of influence over him.

Edited by visenya6, Oct 26, 2012 @ 4:31 PM.

  • 0

#380

JOnanGoopta

JOnanGoopta

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 4:17 PM

She spread malice in the shadows, whispering in Daryl's ear that Rick was "without honour" instead of talking to Rick directly.


Maybe she thought if she spoke her thoughts in the open, he might murder her on the spot, like he just did to his best friend, for all she knew.
  • 0

#381

Zyx

Zyx

    Video Archivist

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 4:22 PM

I'm only asking because you make it sound like he would kill, torture or worse if she would only say the word and, while I do see a certain fondness between them, I'm not sure if she really has that kind of influence on him.


I think Carol was trying to use her influence over Daryl to get him to go against Rick. Obviously, she didn't succeed - the group is still together and Rick is still leader. Over the past seven and a half months, she appears to have become reconciled to Rick's leadership. (Although that near-miss gunshot in the season premiere seems to hint at some buried hostility.)

I think Daryl listens to Carol but makes up his own mind. I don't think he is or ever will be Carol's obedient minion.
  • 0

#382

visenya6

visenya6

    Couch Potato

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 4:30 PM

I'm only asking because you make it sound like he would kill, torture or worse if she would only say the word and, while I do see a certain fondness between them, I'm not sure if she really has that kind of influence over him.

I think Carol was trying to use her influence over Daryl to get him to go against Rick.

You mean like Lori got Rick to kill Shane or something?

Because, seriously, I've never seen a woman who took less care with how she looks like. If Carol is really trying to get Daryl to do something, then she's not using anything Lori used to put Shane or Rick against each other.

Edited by visenya6, Oct 26, 2012 @ 4:32 PM.

  • 0

#383

JOnanGoopta

JOnanGoopta

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 5:02 PM

I think Daryl listens to Carol but makes up his own mind. I don't think he is or ever will be Carol's obedient minion.


Daryl also talks back. He was not only not receptive to Carol's suggestion that Rick was without honor in the last episode of S2, he was basically "are you nuts?"

If anything, she has come around. She's certainly come around on no longer being completely useless part of the bargain, and openly endorsed Rick's leadership in the first episode. She was just wrong, but she had good reasons to be wrong. It's not like she knew everything we've seen. So far as she could tell, Rick was absolutely insane and had just admitted to hiding incredibly important information from the group (nevermind his borderline insane rant about killing his best friend for "you people").
  • 0

#384

Ocean Chick

Ocean Chick

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 6:43 PM

She spread malice in the shadows, whispering in Daryl's ear that Rick was "without honour" instead of talking to Rick directly.


The scene that I watched showed that she was speaking to Daryl around the campfire. Where Glenn, Maggie, Beth and Hershel were also. And it certainly seemed like Maggie, at least, heard Carol and agreed with her. Maggie was urging Glenn to leave as well. So is Maggie also "dishonorable"? And if the Greene's overheard, it hardly constitutes "whispering in Daryl's ear". I believe that Lori and Carl also probably overheard the discusion.

And when she questioned Rick's decision to withhold that bit of information about them all being infected, Carol said it out loud. To Rick's face. Hardly skulking in the shadows. She didn't trust Rick at that point. I could hardly blame her. I'm the type of person who needs ALL the information. Not just the information that someone else deems worthy for me to know. I can't make good decisions in the dark. You make Carol sound like Machiavelli. I really don't think there's enough guile in the woman to warrant that comparision. Heh.

Anyway, what I personally think the writers were going for there was to show that Carol thought that Daryl was a more "honorable" man than Rick at that point and that he should step up to being the leader. Fortunately for Rick, Daryl has no wish to be a leader - if he ever was, that was beat out of him long ago by Meryl. Carol trusts Daryl because she knows him better than she does Rick. I think that's normal. We all trust the known better than we do the unknown.

Andrea was ready to take off with Shane rather than follow Rick, back at the farm. Rick is not a universally beloved leader. And he's not the all-knowing savior. He has his flaws, because he's human. Those flaws will make people in his group upset from time to time. Even Carl has questioned Rick's edicts - his own son. And lord knows his wife doesn't think he always makes the best decisions.
  • 3

#385

Zyx

Zyx

    Video Archivist

Posted Oct 26, 2012 @ 11:48 PM

Anyway, what I personally think the writers were going for there was to show that Carol thought that Daryl was a more "honorable" man than Rick at that point and that he should step up to being the leader.


She didn't say that she thought Daryl was "more honourable". She said that Rick was a man without honour. I think that she was awfully quick to think the worst of him, given that he spent days organizing and taking part in the search for her daughter, while she sat at home uselessly fretting.

I think that Carol had lots of emotional (rather than logical) reasons to resent Rick that were bubbling throughout the previous season and affected her judgment of Rick:

1) Rick has a family; Carol doesn't. And Carol looked after Sophia so carefully, while Carl runs around doing whatever he pleases, which makes it doubly unfair.

2) Rick led the unsuccessful search for Sophia, so naturally, he's responsible for NOT finding her in time.

3) Rick was the person who finally shot zombie Sophia, and Carol had to witness it.

4) Rick asked her to take responsiblities (like deciding Randall's fate) just as if she were an ordinary contributing member of the group instead of respecting her special status as Sophia's grieving mom.

5) Rick didn't punish Carl for sassing her and expressing atheistic views.

Of all of the reasons, the only one I think Rick can actually be blamed for is number five on the list.
  • 0

#386

visenya6

visenya6

    Couch Potato

Posted Oct 27, 2012 @ 12:31 AM

Anyway, what I personally think the writers were going for there was to show that Carol thought that Daryl was a more "honorable" man than Rick at that point and that he should step up to being the leader.

I feel that people tend to see themselves only as other people see them: Daryl sees Carol as an emotional connection so he's very protective of her and the confidence she provides for him. And, unlike Merle, Carol sees Daryl as this honorable leader, which Daryl may have seen himself as...if it weren't because he left his own brother behind.

As far as I can tell, Rick couldn't care less about Carol's opinion of him, the only opinion that matters its his own wife's. So, as long as Lori believes he has no malice, that it was "honorable" of him to kill Shane for her, then he could learn how to live with it.
  • 0

#387

Zyx

Zyx

    Video Archivist

Posted Oct 27, 2012 @ 12:39 AM

Deleted by poster.

Edited by Zyx, Oct 27, 2012 @ 1:06 AM.

  • 0

#388

JOnanGoopta

JOnanGoopta

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 27, 2012 @ 5:04 AM

3) Rick was the person who finally shot zombie Sophia, and Carol had to witness it.


Isn't this enough of a reason for someone to resent someone else, even irrationally? It doesn't make the opinion a good one, or correct, but surely, seeing someone shoot your daughter in front of you is going to fuck you in the head, even if you rationally know it was necessary.

After seven months of daily zombie combat, the current Carol would probably shoot Sophia in the head herself. It may be a painful trip from knowing you have to shoot your loved ones in the head because they're zombies to doing it whenever necessary, but those who don't make that trip don't survive.

I'm willing to cut Carol some slack on this one.

She said some wrong, and even dumb stuff about Rick, but she's come around.

(Does she have buried resentments? That could be interesting.)
  • 0

#389

Zyx

Zyx

    Video Archivist

Posted Oct 27, 2012 @ 8:15 AM

Isn't this enough of a reason for someone to resent someone else, even irrationally? It doesn't make the opinion a good one, or correct, but surely, seeing someone shoot your daughter in front of you is going to fuck you in the head, even if you rationally know it was necessary.


Personally, I'd put the blame for that incident on Shane. He released all the zombies for a turkey shoot, knowing that Hershell's wife and stepson were among them. He didn't mind shooting them in front of Hershell and Maggie, but he wimped out on killing zombie Sophia and left that necessary chore to Rick.

However, Shane went to Carol afterwards to sweet-talk her. He campaigned for her support, which and made her feel important without actually requiring her to do anything. Rick didn't campaign, didn't apologize for doing what he knew was necessary, and he treated her just like another member of the group instead of a fragile flower.

Carol lucked out big-time with Daryl, but IMO her judgement in men is suspect. She wouldn't know a man of honour from a hole in the ground.
  • 0

#390

JOnanGoopta

JOnanGoopta

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 28, 2012 @ 6:53 AM

Personally, I'd put the blame for that incident on Shane. He released all the zombies for a turkey shoot, knowing that Hershell's wife and stepson were among them. He didn't mind shooting them in front of Hershell and Maggie, but he wimped out on killing zombie Sophia and left that necessary chore to Rick.


Agreed. As with many of Shane's acts, he was right on the general principle (it is time to kill all these damn zombies in this damn barn) and piss-poor on execution.

Carol lucked out big-time with Daryl, but IMO her judgement in men is suspect. She wouldn't know a man of honour from a hole in the ground.


Indeed. Her choice in marriage is just the first example.

I just think her mistake about Rick is excusable. He could have been seen as a murderous maniac at the time, especially by people who didn't know why he was acting the way he was, and who had themselves just survived a sanity-shattering zombie horde attack removing them from the Farm That Time Forgot.
  • 0