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Lana Parrilla as Evil Queen Regina: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers


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#691

ViciousCircle

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 4:42 PM

The point being.. a normal, rational, logical person would have placed the blame for this series of events where they belonged, on Cora


No, that is not what normal, logical people necessarily do when they are a day or a month or a year into grieving over their lover being murdered by their mother. Normal, rational, logical people often do not think or act "normal," rational or logical when grieving even without the additional trauma of witnessing a murder, and misplacing blame is a common part of that. This is absolutely canonical in the fields of both trauma and grief counseling.

ouronlylight, beautifully said and interpreted. It's interesting how they played this thing with the Huntsman - the powerful queen/leader/whatever woman with an entire pack of thralls/sex slaves thing is common in sci-fi/fantasy, yet I don't recall seeing it presented as rape in other shows and honestly, in other shows it never much occured to me. Last week's Lost Girl had a character with at least twenty guys in the same position as the Huntsman, but it was portrayed more like a fun and/or funny thing (oh, they mix you cocktails too! Cool!)than as what it really is and I didn't think twice about it until considering it in contrast to Once's portrayal of the thrall thing. OUaT definitely altered the trope here, which is probably a good thing.

Edited by ViciousCircle, Apr 14, 2012 @ 5:38 PM.

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#692

northern eye

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 7:09 PM

Talk about a mess. Snow done screwed up, but I don't blame her. That kid had a serious girl crush/case of hero worship going on. I get why she didn't question why exactly Regina was suddenly marrying her father. Especially since Regina was shielding her from the truth. And, of course, Snow does find out later. In the meantime Regina is on a grief and shock fueled permanent boil that takes her into such a dark place that she's crushing the hearts of those dearest to her. Yikes!
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#693

ouronlylight

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 7:40 PM

MorninStar said:

Leopold quite possibly had no idea that Regina didn't want to marry him.


But didn't Leopold find it strange that his fiancée's mother was the one to accept his marriage proposal, even though his fiancée was standing right there? Didn't he wonder why Regina looked horrified and repulsed by his proposal and Cora's acceptance of it? I mean, has this man never looked at another human's face before? Does he not understand how facial expressions work? If Leopold had no idea that Regina didn't want to marry him, it's not because that knowledge was hidden from him; it's because he literally did not care enough about her to pay attention and find out. And really, it's been established that this is a pattern with Leopold — in 1x11, he waxes on and on at his birthday party about how perfect and wonderful Snow's mother was while Regina sits alone and forgotten in a corner.

They made Regina look younger in the horseback scenes, but if you look at Regina in that wedding dress, she's no kid, she's a young woman, probably in her early 20's. Still.. King Leopold was much her Senior. Again, Regina's anger at Leopold was misplaced.. her anger should have been directed at her mother. Regina COULD have spoken up, but she was afraid of her mother (not of Leopold).


Regina looked pretty young in all of those flashback scenes except for the wedding dress scene; I assumed, although I could be wrong, that this was a deliberate choice on the make-up/wardrobe people's part, to show how Daniel's death had robbed Regina of her youthful hope and optimism for the future. Lana Parrilla also said in an interview that she was playing fifteen years younger in that episode, and since she's 34, that would mean that baby Regina was about 19. She looked about 18-22 to me, and while that is legally an adult (at least in our world), there still is a lot of innocence and naivete at that age, especially if you still live with your parents, under their rules. (I can personally attest to this, LOL.)
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#694

Aliasscape

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 7:49 PM

Ouronlylght that really clears a lot of that up for me, in regards to how Regina would be willing to rape someone and not even have a clue that she was doing it.

Doesn't mean she didn't have a clue she was doing it. It could easily just be yet another reason not to care. "I got used to this happening to me, you will too." I generally go with that Regina actually knows the wrongness of every single thing she's done. She just DOES. NOT. CARE. The rest of the world exists to service her needs and agenda. I mean that is Storybrooke. A world that exists to service her need for revenge.

I also do not think that Cora accepting the proposal on Regina's behalf was this amazingly weird thing that Leopold should have questioned. Parents deciding who their kids married, or giving their permission was probably common. Her silence was probably seen as being just so overwhelmed and speechless at such an amazing offer and of course she wanted to marry him. If she'd blurted out "No" while her mother was saying "Yes" then no questioning of it would then seem odd. I don't think it's presumptuous to assume most unmarried/not betrothed maidens in the land would love to marry the king (honestly rather they loved him or not.) And probably a good number of the taken women would dump their husbands/fiances for a chance as Queen. And even if you were going with the idea that he should have considered Regina might already be taken, any "real, serious betrothal" would have the blessing of her parents and Cora would have informed him of it instead of accepting.
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#695

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 9:10 PM

ouronlylight: In a mideval society it would be quite common, especially in the upper classes, for the parents to handle every detail. It wasn't all that rare for the bride and groom to not even meet until the wedding. Marriages, again, especially in the upper echelons of society, were more business arrangements than love matches.
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#696

Tzigone

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 8:01 AM

I generally go with that Regina actually knows the wrongness of every single thing she's done. She just DOES. NOT. CARE. The rest of the world exists to service her needs and agenda. I mean that is Storybrooke. A world that exists to service her need for revenge.


I completely agree. I do think she tries to justify some of what she does (leaving Jefferson), but other things (like with Hansel and Gretel), I don't think she even attempts moral justification for.

I also do not think that Cora accepting the proposal on Regina's behalf was this amazingly weird thing that Leopold should have questioned. Parents deciding who their kids married, or giving their permission was probably common. Her silence was probably seen as being just so overwhelmed and speechless at such an amazing offer and of course she wanted to marry him.

Agreed. This is further backed up by Regina's actual earlier speechlessness when she met Leopold, IIRC. I absolutely believe as Snow did - that if her father had known Regina didn't want to marry him, he'd have called off the wedding and not been vicious or cruel or vindictive (though I could understand annoyance with her for not speaking up immediately if he didn't know her mother was an evil witch).

Edited by Tzigone, Apr 15, 2012 @ 8:02 AM.

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#697

ouronlylight

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 10:21 AM

Tricksterson said:

In a mideval society it would be quite common, especially in the upper classes, for the parents to handle every detail. It wasn't all that rare for the bride and groom to not even meet until the wedding. Marriages, again, especially in the upper echelons of society, were more business arrangements than love matches.


This isn't a medieval society, though; it's an alternate universe with a separate history from ours. I mean, we've definitely seen arranged marriages on this show (Charming and Abigail), but we've also seen royal marriages made for love, despite class differences (Ella and Thomas). If Leopold is really good and kind of a king as he/the writers would lead us to believe, a king who only desires "the happiness of all who set foot in my kingdom," then I'd think that he'd be quite opposed to arranged marriages and would care about Regina's feelings on the matter of his proposal, not Cora's.

Aliasscape said:

Her silence was probably seen as being just so overwhelmed and speechless at such an amazing offer and of course she wanted to marry him. If she'd blurted out "No" while her mother was saying "Yes" then no questioning of it would then seem odd. I don't think it's presumptuous to assume most unmarried/not betrothed maidens in the land would love to marry the king (honestly rather they loved him or not.) And probably a good number of the taken women would dump their husbands/fiances for a chance as Queen.


idk, her facial expressions quite clearly said "this is the worst thing to ever happen to me", but ymmv, of course. I actually do think it's presumptuous to assume most unmarried/un-betrothed maidens would love to marry the king, though, especially in a land where true love exists and is the most powerful magic of all. There might be one or two opportunists (hi, Cora!), but I'd think that the majority of women would rather hold out for true love.

Doesn't mean she didn't have a clue she was doing it. It could easily just be yet another reason not to care. "I got used to this happening to me, you will too." I generally go with that Regina actually knows the wrongness of every single thing she's done. She just DOES. NOT. CARE. The rest of the world exists to service her needs and agenda. I mean that is Storybrooke. A world that exists to service her need for revenge.


I both agree and disagree with this. I do think that Regina knows how wrong everything that she's done is, but I don't agree that she doesn't care. I think that she certainly tells herself that she doesn't care, but I think that it really bothers her, deep down, how evil she's become. That's why she attempts to justify all of her actions — the children that the Blind Witch ate should have heeded her warnings about not eating the food, Jefferson shouldn't have "abandoned" his daughter, etc. — and that's why her justifications don't work (see: her face as she's screwing over Jefferson), because she knows that there's no excuse for what she's done. She's just so deep in it that she thinks that there's no way out, and all that she wants is to be happy again, so she keeps plowing forward in the futile attempt that what's making her so miserable will eventually yield happiness.

Re: Regina as rapist, my point with that post was not to excuse or justify her actions, because no one deserves to be raped. My point is that it makes sense that a woman who had all of her agency stripped away from her, a woman whose only experiences with sex have taught her that it's an act of dominance and power, would rape in order to regain the power and sexual agency that was stripped away from her when Daniel died and she was forced to marry Leopold.
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#698

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 10:45 AM

I both agree and disagree with this. I do think that Regina knows how wrong everything that she's done is, but I don't agree that she doesn't care. I think that she certainly tells herself that she doesn't care, but I think that it really bothers her, deep down, how evil she's become. That's why she attempts to justify all of her actions — the children that the Blind Witch ate should have heeded her warnings about not eating the food, Jefferson shouldn't have "abandoned" his daughter, etc. — and that's why her justifications don't work (see: her face as she's screwing over Jefferson), because she knows that there's no excuse for what she's done. She's just so deep in it that she thinks that there's no way out, and all that she wants is to be happy again, so she keeps plowing forward in the futile attempt that what's making her so miserable will eventually yield happiness.

But this makes Regina seem worse to me than if she had no capacity to understand her actions/emotions at all. The fact that she knows what she is doing is wrong and she chooses to do them anyway render her more villainous, not less, in my humble opinion. Her father reached out to her 'humanity' and she ripped his heart out! Others reached out to her 'humanity' and it got them no where or death.

As for the marriage of Regina & King Leopold, we have no idea what happened in their marriage. I'd have to watch the segment again, but as I recall, he made it sound like his priority was to secure a mother for Snow, not a unwilling sex slave. Regina could have refused the proposal, but she did not. Yes, she didn't refuse because she was afraid of her mother's wrath and her thoughts of Daniel, but King Leopold could not have known that unless she would have told him. He's not a mind-reader.
Arranged marriages must not have been unheard of in the Enchanted lands, Charming's mother tried to arrange one for him, although he turned it down, I got the impression (possibly wrong) that his refusal of his mother's wishes was a concession on her part for the wishes of her son. King George and King Midas arranged the marriage of their 'children'. Belle's marriage to Gaston was to be an arranged marriage. Dwarves and Fairies were not allowed to fall in love/marry at all.


In a land where true love exists and is the most powerful magic of all... isn't that every land? I think so.
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#699

Aliasscape

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 3:17 PM

idk, her facial expressions quite clearly said "this is the worst thing to ever happen to me", but ymmv, of course. I actually do think it's presumptuous to assume most unmarried/un-betrothed maidens would love to marry the king, though, especially in a land where true love exists and is the most powerful magic of all. There might be one or two opportunists (hi, Cora!), but I'd think that the majority of women would rather hold out for true love.


If that's her "worst thing that has ever happened to me face" then she really needs to work on it. She didn't even frown. All I saw on her face was speechless surprise. She didn't even form her lips into a silent "no". It resembled nothing like her face say, watching her mother rip Daniel's heart out (surely that's the worst thing that had ever happened to her.) Or the face she made while wrapped in a horse bridle. Or the face she made ripping her own father's heart out. We've seen Regina look a zillion times more dismayed. So yeah, my mileage varies a whole lot.

The king had obviously run into zillions of of maidens who wanted to marry him but just didn't care about Snow White at all. Opportunists were a plenty. That kingdom was rampant with people in dire straits who wanted to escape their lives. Royalty would totally be the ultimate guarantee. I know this is a fantasy world rather than true medieval times but we still saw that arranged marriages were very very common. When Regina runs to Daniel and says her mother accepted the King's proposal he wasn't all "Oh my, why on earth would your parents make a union for you?"

This isn't a medieval society, though; it's an alternate universe with a separate history from ours. I mean, we've definitely seen arranged marriages on this show (Charming and Abigail), but we've also seen royal marriages made for love, despite class differences (Ella and Thomas). If Leopold is really good and kind of a king as he/the writers would lead us to believe, a king who only desires "the happiness of all who set foot in my kingdom," then I'd think that he'd be quite opposed to arranged marriages and would care about Regina's feelings on the matter of his proposal, not Cora's.

I think we've established that Leopold, nice guy, super naive. He probably grew up as a prince in a palace. The thought of anyone doing anything they didn't want to do probably didn't happen in his world. If Regina didn't want to marry him, he expected her to speak up and say so. He doesn't know Cora's evil. He thought Cora was this AMAZING mother who raised a wonderfully self-less daughter who would make a good mother for his daughter. And people with such admirable mother/daughter relationships don't go around agreeing to do stuff their kid doesn't want to do. Cora's agreement was probably not taken as Cora superseding Regina's wishes (even though I still say in this society she'd have been well within her rights to do so) but as them being SO CLOSE that Cora could read Regina's mind to answer on her behalf. Or that Regina was such a good daughter that she would make her parent's wishes her own. More evidence of how CLOSE they were. Awwww. How sweet. Let's get this wedding on the road! Sorry but the guy's been shown to have the collective intelligence of a box of rocks. Nice doesn't equal smart or emotionally intuitive.
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#700

Ameristar

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 3:43 PM

In my opinion the look she had on her face when she was proposed to was more like "Who...me?" than anguish.
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#701

ViciousCircle

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 4:43 PM

I would agree we've seen Leo established as appearing nice most of the time, but I certainly don't think it's established he actually is, or that he isn't capable of being cruel, vengeful and cold when it suits him. The minute he thought someone might have given a gift to a wife he didn't even care about, he was ready to kill. His entire behavior at the dinner was inexcusably thoughtless at best. I think the nice and dopey thing is just a convenient face he wears. Noone can rule a kingdom without a fair amount of savvy, shrewdness, ability to read people, and a willingness to do some crappy things. Such are the demands and costs of power.
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#702

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 4:59 PM

The minute he thought someone might have given a gift to a wife he didn't even care about, he was ready to kill.

What gave you this idea? I don't recall anything like that being said.
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#703

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 5:02 PM

The minute he thought someone might have given a gift to a wife he didn't even care about, he was ready to kill.

We have absolutely no prof that that is what he was going to do. He may have been going to kill someone. He may have been going to give them lots of money and send them on their way with a "I hope you're happy." I personally find it likely that it was something between the two, but we don't actually know

His entire behavior at the dinner was inexcusably thoughtless at best.

I disagree there. I'd say at best it was him doing exactly as Regina wanted/asked of him because she set it up. At worst it was deliberately cruel and dismissive. I find the former vastly more likely than the latter, though again think middle ground is the most likely explanation.

I think the nice and dopey thing is just a convenient face he wears. Noone can rule a kingdom without a fair amount of savvy, shrewdness, ability to read people, and a willingness to do some crappy things.

If he's shrewd and willing to do crappy things, why the hell did he use his wishes to free the genie and give the genie the other wish. That makes no sense with that sort of personality.

Also, we don't even know if he's good king or if someone else is the power behind the throne or what. Also, his seemingly Queen amassed her own personal guard and a collection of hearts without his knowledge. He didn't know she was evil or trying to kill him. "Shrewd" and "ability to read people" are not descriptions that come to mind, based on what we've seen.

Edited by Tzigone, Apr 15, 2012 @ 5:04 PM.

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#704

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 6:09 PM

Regina as a redeemable character, I enjoyed reading your thoughts, Tzigone, but I think that I have a different definition of redeemble than you. For me, any character with any shred of humanity left is redeemable.


Agreed, this show is so much like Buffy in that it uses a goofy campy premise to touch on almost biblical themes and theology (I think one year a religious mag declated "Buffy Summers as theologian of the year,") A big themes seems to be choices and free will and making the decision to go into the darkness. But on the opposite end is redemption, which is a very christian theme. Especially a Catholic theme were free will is a big deal (i.e. Regina didnt take away their happy endings, she took away their free will and their ability to make themselves happy.) A big Catholic theme is redemption and that everyone has a shot at redemption, up until the moment you die, and perhaps even beyond (though purgatory and making a choice to join God.) No matter what Regina does, she has a shot at redemption but she needs to make the choice. I doubt the show will leave us with "Regina Bad/Snow Good..Regina never changes."
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#705

ViciousCircle

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 6:31 PM

Tzigane, what I recall him saying re: the other man is that he would "handle it himself," and he said it in the tone of voice that reminded me of every mob movie don who ever told a soldier to "take care of" a problem, so I read it as kill. I could buy he meant imprisonment or lesser punishment than death, but I definitely did not hear a tone that suggested giving the guy a cash reward. As far as how he acted at the dinner, we saw Regina use the situation to her advantage, but nothing to suggest that she created it. I can't imagine a realistic way she could. "Hey, Kingie, how about you publicly humiliate me tonight, really make me look like a piece of leftover shit?" King: "Okay. See ya there." Seems a stretch to me. I think he did it on his own, and she opportunistically turned it to her advantage.

At any rate, I didn't say Leo was infallibly great at being shrewd, or crappy all the time, or anything like a genius. I said it hasn't been established he can't ever be anything other than just nice and totally stupid. Hyperbole in a character is boring and nonsensical to me, which is part of why I think there's more to Leo than meets the eye. I also don't see it as possible to hold onto power without having at least some ability to know wtf is going on and some willingness to handle threats to the power with authority when they invariably arise, by whatever means necessary. I can't imagine someone as gentle, stupid, daffy and naive as he may seem to be holding on to power for any length of time. That doesn't mean he must be the smartest, cruelest, most highly intuitive person EVER, I didn't say he was freaking Superman; I just don't think he can be as entirely stupid and clueless and gentle as he's portrayed. If he actually is/was, then I hope they do show a different power behind the throne, because that's too one-dimensional and way too nursery-rhyme of a king and kingdom for me to buy. However, there's been no sign of any other power at play in his kingdom besides him.


There's also been no suggestion Regina's guard was amassed behind his back. It's typical for a Queen to have her own personal guard, as well as her own chambers in which to keep jewels, undergarments, and/or human hearts without expectation of those things being periodically gone through by anyone. There's also no reason to think the heart-filing-cabinet opens by just anyone's command. I would expect it to be magically protected or conventionally locked at a minimum. We don't know that he did or did not have any idea that she wanted to kill him. He never said anything about it, but if he did know she had some ill intent towards him, that would explain him not using a genie wish for her to be happy. If he was perfectly, thoroughly, always unendingly good and kind, and didn't think she had it in for him, then why wouldn't he want to use a wish on her? So either he isn't the Enchanted Forest's very own mother-theresa-with-brain-damage, or he's kind but not entirely clueless and daffy. Either way, I still don't think he's precisely what we've been shown. Not to mention, more-than-initially-meets-the-eye is how this show tends to roll.
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#706

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 8:20 PM

I can't find the clip with King Leopold & the Genie on the internet (free) but I do have it on TiVo,
Transcript:
*****

(The Genie meets with King Leopold in one of the rooms at the castle.)

Genie: You called for me, Your Majesty?

King Leopold: I have reason to believe my wife’s heart belongs to another man.

Genie: Certainly, the Queen would never stray, Your Majesty.

King Leopold: And yet, her diary suggests otherwise.

(The King hands the Genie the diary. He silently reads it to himself.)

Diary(in Regina's voice): Last night, a man gave me a gift. And though it was but a simple mirror, it awakened feelings in me that I abandoned long ago. Hope for love and companionship, even though I am trapped in my husband’s court.

King Leopold: Sadly, the diary does not name the man who gave her this mirror. I am not a fool – I realize that the Queen is unhappy and yearns for someone to love her in a way that I never can. And yet, I never imagined that she would betray me like this.

Genie: Well, certainly the Queen would never act on these feelings?

King Leopold: Love makes people do foolish things.

Genie: And why have you called upon me, Your Majesty?

King Leopold: I need someone with your wits. To learn the identity of the man who has stolen my wife’s heart.

Genie: And, what will you do to him once I have found him?

King Leopold: That is my concern – not yours. Now, tell me, Genie – can you find the man who gave the Queen this mirror or not?

(King Leopold picks the hand mirror off the table and hands it to the Genie.)
****


I'd say his response was ambiguous, not sinister. And while it was not right for King Leopold to read Regina's diary, it was clearly a manipulation by Regina who wanted the King to find it and read it. As we know, she never loved the Genie (or her husband) as we see magnificently played here: Regina & Genie after having killed King Leopold (You Tube)

Considering King Leopold was the one to genuinely have something to worry about, as Regina already had her plans in place to kill King Leopold, I would say he was rightfully concerned about a betrayal. I would not think it uncommon for a King to be vigilant for such betrayals/coup d'etat attempts, even from within his court.


I found several things interesting about this transcript exchange.. first the phrase 'Stolen my wife's heart' is pretty funny, given Regina's collection of said organs. Secondly, it made me think that King Leopold and Regina probably had a fairly erm.. 'hands off' relationship.
I'd love to know what Regina knew about how the curse would play out/how much control she has over the circumstances in Storybrooke and how much was built into the curse by Rumpelstiltskin, but that's something we'll probably never find out. :(

***


Regina is the villain in this story. Regina & Rumpelstiltskin, not together, but each in their own way. Without us 'loving to hate' them, it wouldn't be much of a story. The Evil Queen is pretty evil, even in the traditional story.
That said, I do love the way Lana Parrilla brings this character to life, but I have about as much sympathy for Regina as I do for Cora, who probably also acted out of desperate circumstances and has her own tragic back-story.
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#707

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 9:11 PM

Genie: And, what will you do to him once I have found him?

King Leopold: That is my concern – not yours.


I just watched this episode again last night, and now that we know how Leopold came to be married to Regina, I wonder what Leopold did intend to do. When this episode originally aired, Leopold sounded threatening and it seemed like he was cruel in locking Regina up. But was that really true? He does seem to be a decent person, so I don't think he would have executed Regina's lover. Could Leopold have made arrangements for Regina to be with this man who had "stolen" her heart, while minimizing damage to the throne (ie, keeping it hush-hush)?
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#708

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 10:42 PM

Leopold's tone of voice and facial expressions made it plainly obvious that he had nothing pleasant in store for whoever had "stolen" his wife's heart (and let me stop before I rant about that, ugh). It would make no sense for him to intentionally make the genie think that he was planning murder instead of benevolence, because if he didn't trust the genie to be discreet, then he wouldn't have said anything in the first place. It would be far worse for a man with a sterling reputation as a benevolent individual to have someone accuse him of being a murderer than being a cuckold, I would think.

Plus, although what Regina did was terrible, I think that it speaks volumes that she knew exactly what buttons to push to make her plan work. She knew that the king would read her diary, and she knew that the thought of her falling in love with another man would send him to the genie in a jealous, murderous rage, which would then make the genie protective of her and willing to commit murder. Regina had been married to Leopold for at least a decade by this point, so I would imagine that she was quite familiar with his behavior at this point (especially if she'd been plotting his murder). If she couldn't rely on Leopold to go apeshit, then her whole plan would have fallen apart, so I think it's safe to say that a) Leopold intended to harm his wife's "lover", and b) such behavior was not out of the ordinary for him.

Honestly, I don't think that "Leopold is generally a friendly individual" and "Leopold is a terrible, possessive husband" have to be mutually exclusive. I've always assumed that Leopold resented Regina for failing to live up to the memory of his beloved first wife and, as a result, tended to view and treat her as a possession rather than as an actual human being. Besides, I've known tons of sexist douchebags who are outwardly very kind and friendly; it happens.
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#709

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 5:46 AM

When this episode originally aired, Leopold sounded threatening and it seemed like he was cruel in locking Regina up.

I actually never through Leopold locked up Regina. The only people to tell us he did were Regina and Henry - very untrustworthy sources. I believe that was all part of the setup to get Genie to kill Leopold.
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#710

Flyby

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 7:18 AM

When the Genie brought Regina the wooden box with the snakes he did have to pass two armed guards before he could enter her chambers. I don't think either the Genie or Regina made any reference to them, but I always assumed they were meant to affirm that Regina was indeed confined to her quarters. Especially since the way he entered Leopold's chambers in an earlier scene was filmed in a similar way and there were no guards in front of his door. I tend to agree with ouronlylight that Regina probably knew how to push Leopold's buttons. She did set this up, but I doubt that she made all of it up.
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#711

Samiwell

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 10:20 AM

Regina had her own guards.

And ouronlylight, there is no way Regina had been married to Leopold for a decade or more when she killed him. Look at Snow. Assuming she was 12 when they married, there's no way she was depicted to be as old as 22+ when the Genie came to the court. Maybe 16 or 17.

I'm one who believes Regina never allowed Leopold his conjugal rights. He was too nice a guy to force himself on her. That would explain not only his disregard at the birthday party but also his jealousy that she would take a lover, but never him. But more, the idea that she wouldn't realize she had been raping the Huntsman because she had effectively been raped herself throughout her married life -- well, that is utter nonsense.
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#712

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 10:47 AM

I watched the scene with King Leopold and Genie several times last night. King Leopold is very even tempered and calm, not in a rage at all. He seemed understandably puzzled/sad/disappointed/hurt/concerned about his wife's betrayal, as any spouse would. I realize his calm behavior could be outward appearances, but at this point the writers have given us no indication of mistreatment or temper/rage/ill will by King Leopold to anyone, and every indication that Regina began planning the death of King Leopold & Snow from the beginning of the marriage.

The writers have lead us to believe that whatever damage was done to Regina's psyche was done before she entered the marriage with King Leopold. Any King whose wife confessed to loving another man (especially knowing she was unhappy) would be concerned about coups/poisonings, etc.. I am more inclined to think that with Snow now grown, King Leopold might have allowed Regina to end their (sham) marriage. He did not seem to have any attachment to her. I agree with Samiwell, I would not be surprised if this marriage had never been consummated. I DO think the writers wrote that scene ambiguously (intentionally so). They have treated the King Leopold character as a fairly one dimensional faerie tale 'once upon a time' Royal King character, not as a psychopath enraged mob boss entrapping a young woman into sexual slavery. I don't think the writers would be afraid to 'go there' if that was the story they had wanted to tell.
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#713

Tzigone

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 11:51 AM

I watched the scene with King Leopold and Genie several times last night. King Leopold is very even tempered and calm, not in a rage at all. He seemed understandably puzzled/sad/disappointed/hurt/concerned about his wife's betrayal, as any spouse would. I realize his calm behavior could be outward appearances, but at this point the writers have given us no indication of mistreatment or temper/rage/ill will by King Leopold to anyone, and every indication that Regina began planning the death of King Leopold & Snow from the beginning of the marriage.

I should probably rewatch that scene myself. When I originally watched, I definitely didn't think Leopold was planning an execution. He seemed sad and worried, but not angry to me. An execution doesn't really make sense to me, given what we'd seen of his character then, and even more so now. He doesn't really have much emotional attachment to Regina; he's not going to be enraged by her loving another. He's disappointed at the likelihood of infidelity - he does think love may tempt her to that. But he certainly doesn't seemed consumed by emotion, to me. And he seems too nice a guy to execute the man in question as a matter of course or as a preventative measure against the future possibility of infidelity. To me, dealing with the situation as discreetly as possible seems the most logical, intelligent course of action. Then you don't have to deal with court gossip or a lowering of the King in the eyes of other rulers. And Genie, instead of an employee of some sort, being asked to handle the situation is consistent with that, I think. I have to admit, I tend to think that divorce is not an accepted option there and that most likely Leopold wanted to make the situation go away. Probably by removing temptation - I think he was going to try to get the "other man" to leave. Possibly by humbly requesting it, possibly by paying him off, possibly by exiling him. I find the latter less likely, because it would draw attention.


Any King whose wife confessed to loving another man (especially knowing she was unhappy) would be concerned about coups/poisonings, etc.

I honestly don't think the idea crossed Leopold's mind that Regina would kill him. He didn't seem to see her murderous nature, IMO, since an affair seemed to be on the top of his worry list. I do wonder when Snow figured Regina for evil. Definitely by time the Huntsman was in the picture, but I don't know if she suspected anything before her father's death.


I agree with Samiwell, I would not be surprised if this marriage had never been consummated.

I think it possible, but I'd chalk it up to a lack of interest on Leopold's part moreso than refusal by Regina. Regina seems very willing to play the part at first, and refusal would definitely put a kink in that. I find it more likely the marriage was consummated, because that is the proper/expected course of action, but that their sex life was pretty non-existent.

They have treated the King Leopold character as a fairly one dimensional faerie tale 'once upon a time' Royal King character, not as a psychopath enraged mob boss entrapping a young woman into sexual slavery. I don't think the writers would be afraid to 'go there' if that was the story they had wanted to tell.

I agree. After all, they were willing to go there with Regina enslaving the Huntsman.
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#714

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 12:32 PM

MorninStar: Any King whose wife confessed to loving another man (especially knowing she was unhappy) would be concerned about coups/poisonings, etc.

Tzigone: I honestly don't think the idea crossed Leopold's mind that Regina would kill him. He didn't seem to see her murderous nature, IMO, since an affair seemed to be on the top of his worry list. I do wonder when Snow figured Regina for evil. Definitely by time the Huntsman was in the picture, but I don't know if she suspected anything before her father's death.

What made me think Leopold might be concerned for his personal safety was history.. and because King Leopold said to Genie, "Love makes people do foolish things." I realize 'foolish things' could include all sorts of things. Although, you are probably correct, he did not see Regina's murderous nature otherwise he never would have allowed her to stay as part of the court with Snow.
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#715

Houddy

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 6:25 PM

I think it possible, but I'd chalk it up to a lack of interest on Leopold's part moreso than refusal by Regina.

Given that Leopold married Regina so his daughter would have a mother and Regina married Leopold because Daniel was murdered and she had no one else to run away with I don't think either of them cared much about sexing the other one up. I also don't think that Leopold being a "nice guy" would mean he wasn't going to do something awful to any man who was screwing his pretend wife. This is a guy who was reading his wife's private diary. The fact that she wanted him to doesn't negate the fact that he was invading her privacy. She could very well have gotten the idea when she found out he'd read her diary in the past.

As for the guards, I'm on the fence as to who, Leopold or Regina, put them there. Neither one makes much sense to me with the information we have so far. I'm not sure why Leopold would bother putting guards at her room as he didn't seem to suspect her at that point, and if he suspected her of stepping out, I don't see why he'd care since he didn't love her any more than she loved him and I don't know how Regina would justify it to him if she put them there. I can't imagine Leopold forcing her to perform her wifely duties, so I can't see her needing them to protect her from him, so who were they supposed to be keeping out?
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#716

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 6:50 PM

I also don't think that Leopold being a "nice guy" would mean he wasn't going to do something awful to any man who was screwing his pretend wife. This is a guy who was reading his wife's private diary.

I do not find his depiction consistent with a man who kill someone for flirting with his wife. Sure, he was wrong to read her diary, but there is a huge, gaping chasm between being willing to read your wife's email to see if she's slipping around and being willing to kill the man she's slipping around with.

I can't imagine Leopold forcing her to perform her wifely duties, so I can't see her needing them to protect her from him, so who were they supposed to be keeping out?

No one. They are there to create an illusion. They may or may not know that. Heck, they may even just be there to keep out any annoying courtiers who don't have an appointment.

Edited by Tzigone, Apr 16, 2012 @ 6:51 PM.

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#717

Crimson Belle

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 9:55 PM

I can't imagine Leopold forcing her to perform her wifely duties, so I can't see her needing them to protect her from him, so who were they supposed to be keeping out?


Fairy Tale Land's version of the Secret Service.
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#718

MorninStar

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 10:28 PM

I think most castles would have guards.. presumably strategically placed around the most important people. Regina had guards around her when it was only her in her castle (after Snow left).
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#719

Corydora

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 1:44 AM

The King may have been one who had lots of mistresses and would agree to have an "understanding" with his wife about outside relationships. Except she killed him and all. Witch.
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#720

exquisitliltart

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Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 1:21 AM

I mean, look at his face when the guards are dragging him away to Regina's bedchamber;


The entire speech Regina gives to the huntsman before he's hauled away to her room could just as easily been a speech that Leopold gave to Regina. (If not verbatim, definitely through action and implication) The idea that Regina was Leopold's 'pet' to do with what he wanted, and there would be grave consequences if she disobeyed or ran away is clearly implied. Regina is perpetuating the cycle of abuse now that the her captor (the king) is gone and she is the one in power.

Edited by TWoP Tennison, Apr 19, 2012 @ 8:49 PM.
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