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Robert Carlyle as Rumpelstiltskin: Spinning Straw into Gold


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#181

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Posted Mar 13, 2012 @ 2:33 PM

My current (completely baseless) theory is that when he said "curse to end all curses" he was being literal, that he created the curse and waited for a sucker like Regina to instigate it, knowing that he had created the loophole of a Savior (Emma) to resolve everything. If this curse ends all curses currently running in FTL, Rumple is free after centuries without dooming someone else.


The problem with this theory and its variants, IMO, is that Belle gave Rumpel a get-out-of-curse-free card with True Love's Kiss--no need to doom anyone--and instead of jumping at the chance, he completely wigged out. Granted that part of his freakout was suspecting Belle of being an agent of the Queen, but by the next morning he has clearly calmed down and doesn't think she betrayed him.
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#182

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Posted Mar 13, 2012 @ 2:55 PM

Referring to the 'curse to end all curses' I don't think Rumpelstiltskin was hoping to end only the curse on himself, but ALL curses.. on everyone. Otherwise I think he would have accepted Belle's love and the breaking of his own personal curse. He seems to have a vendetta on faeries/other magical beings and would perhaps like to break their power.

Maybe he also has another agenda.. maybe (and I realize this is a big maybe) Baelfire is under some sort of curse.. like Fredrick-turned-to-gold or gnome/dwarf-turned-to-stone that is in Regina's apple orchard type of curse that Rumpelstiltskin was unable to break any other way. Or perhaps Baelfire died due to a curse and Rumpelstiltskin would like to see all curses ended as a personal vendetta/closure to that loss.

Edited by MorninStar, Mar 13, 2012 @ 2:57 PM.

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#183

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Posted Mar 13, 2012 @ 3:20 PM

I really believe that Rumpel refused the chance for love because he was the only one with greater magical powers than Regina. Can you imagine the havoc she'd have unleashed without him as a counter-balance? She had a long history of making all the worst choices.
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#184

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Posted Mar 13, 2012 @ 4:24 PM

The problem with this theory and its variants, IMO, is that Belle gave Rumpel a get-out-of-curse-free card with True Love's Kiss--no need to doom anyone--and instead of jumping at the chance, he completely wigged out.

Maybe he didn't intend to break his curse until after Belle had already left and it was too late.

I really believe that Rumpel refused the chance for love because he was the only one with greater magical powers than Regina.

If that was his only reason, though, why not explain it to Belle or gently turn her down? He reacted pretty badly.
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#185

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Posted Mar 13, 2012 @ 4:50 PM

If that was his only reason, though, why not explain it to Belle or gently turn her down? He reacted pretty badly.


I don't think that was his only reason for turning Belle down, but I think a large part of the reason for him doing so was intense paranoia. The world hates him even though they need him, and I'm sure the Queen isn't the first person to become his (fr?)enemy and make an active effort to undermine or kill him. Given who he is and what he does, in his mind it's much more likely that Belle came to destroy him rather than love him.

A part of him knows that isn't true, of course, but by the time he's cooled down enough to review the situation and accept that she may have been sincere, the Queen arrives to tell him that he's too late.
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#186

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Posted Mar 13, 2012 @ 5:10 PM

I also think that Rumpelstiltskin hates himself. It's hard to accept love/that someone else can love you when you hate yourself. Perhaps he was afraid loving her would end badly (as it maybe did with Baelfire?) and that letting her go was the best thing to do. The previous Dark One said, as he was dying, that he was tired of the evil things he was made to do under the curse. I wonder how much personal choice (free will) Rumpelstiltskin had while under his curse and the things he did.
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#187

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Posted Mar 13, 2012 @ 7:58 PM

I was being flippant about the babies. I do like them myself.

But Rumpel is out for himself and it's a mistake to think that he would do something for the greater good, unless it benefited him in some way. He's not going to be doing the noble sacrifice thing. Don't forget, he's also a bit of a coward. I suspect that were Belle returned to him, he wouldn't be too quick to declare his love. He likes secrets and self-preservation.

I'm interested in how he changed from that desperate peasant into the scenery-chewing trickster he was in fairy tale land (before he lost Belle, that is). Now we know why he went dark; I want to know what happened to him, while he was cursed, to make him so much fun. I mean, I would assume that being condemned to do evil until you can trick some other poor slob into killing you would not generally lighten ones spirits.
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#188

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Posted Mar 13, 2012 @ 10:32 PM

I rewatched the pilot tonight, and caught one bit from Rumple that I thought was interesting.
When Snow White and James come to see him, he talks about how their unborn child (Emma) is the only one who can break the curse. But he says, specifically, that she is "our only hope" , not "YOUR" only hope, to Charming and Snow, but "OUR". As though something he is hoping for rests on Emma returning on her 28th birthday. And, though it's hard to tell with Mr. Gold, it almost seems like a bit of a smile shows in his eyes after he meets her in Storybrooke for the first time at Granny's Inn (he hides it from Ruby, who is standing across from him...but it flashes just for a second beforehand)

So that lends a bit to the theory that, somehow, the curse and its being broken is something that Rumple/Mr. Gold is hoping for. I'm thinking those who think he's banking on the "Curse that will end all Curses" resetting something to his liking are right. And possibly, the *ALL* part of that being more important than we might think.
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#189

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Posted Mar 31, 2012 @ 8:49 PM

I have been thinking about the whole "guess my name" not thing and was wondering if not knowing Mr. Gold's name is the equivalent of that. Regina would know since she is probably the miller's daughter but no one else knows. Thoughts?
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#190

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Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 12:18 AM

In my humble opinion, at this point in the story I think the 'knowing' of a persons name isn't a 'magical power' in and of itself. What I do believe they are trying to tell us is that 'knowledge is power'. If, for example, Regina knows Rumpelstiltskin remembers who SHE is.. he knows her history.. he knows what she is capable of.. and he remembers what the curse is capable of (and what it is NOT capable of). Knowing Emma's name.. and remembering the history of the Enchanted lands, also allows Mr. Gold to recognize whom everyone else in Storybrooke is, and their history, and perhaps their destiny.. as in Emma.. and maybe Henry and August(?). There is the 'magic' of the knife that can kill Rumpelstiltskin, but I don't think the magic is in his name, but the knife because he had no problem telling the knight who came to collect Baelfire what his name was.
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#191

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Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 12:50 PM

Regina would know since she is probably the miller's daughter but no one else knows. Thoughts?

We now know, of course, that Regina is actually the miller's granddaughter, but she's undoubtedly grown up with the horror stories about how Rumpelstiltskin almost destroyed her family by threatening to take away Cora's child (who was possibly Regina herself.) It's easy to see now why the real war is between Rumpelstiltskin and Regina, as Regina is now the last known member of the family that defeated Rumpelstiltskin decades earlier. It definitely explains the barely-concealed contempt that Mr. Gold has for Regina (in my ears, I can almost hear the sarcastic venom with which he addresses her as "Your Majesty" in Storybrooke.)
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#192

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Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 4:28 PM

It's easy to see now why the real war is between Rumpelstiltskin and Regina, as Regina is now the last known member of the family that defeated Rumpelstiltskin decades earlier. It definitely explains the barely-concealed contempt that Mr. Gold has for Regina (in my ears, I can almost hear the sarcastic venom with which he addresses her as "Your Majesty" in Storybrooke.)


They haven't really indicated that Regina and her family defeated Rumple. Cora just said she made deals. That does not sound like a victory to me. There could have been another child that she traded for her powers which would explain Cora having big plans for Regina. If she traded so much then she expects much in return. Regina is her last and only chance of gaining power and wealth.

Just a thought. Could the twins Rumple used to give the other king a replacement son/sons be who Cora traded away for her power? That would make David her brother. Now that would make for a messy family reunion. I know in the original story the miller's daughter beat Rumple but then this show is not exactly following the old stories that closely.
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#193

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Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 7:53 PM

Could the twins Rumple used to give the other king a replacement son/sons be who Cora traded away for her power?


I doubt it. The way James' mother described the loss of James I made it sound as if they were in fact her children, and that she traded James I because she and her husband couldn't afford to care for both of them. I don't think she and her husband would have been desperate enough to trade for kids when they barely had coin enough to feed themselves.

Edited by oldandnewfirm, Apr 2, 2012 @ 7:53 PM.

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#194

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Posted Apr 3, 2012 @ 1:04 AM

Although Regina will think otherwise, Rumple kept his part of the deal. He promised that he would get Mary Margaret to run from her cell, which she did. The deal had nothing to do with Emma.
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#195

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 1:53 PM

Happy Birthday Robert Carlyle!! He's 51 today!

As a friend of mine said, she thought he was younger.. it must be.. magic! :)
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#196

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Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 8:39 PM

From the episode thread on whether Rumple/Gold can be redeemed

He did nearly beat a man to death. He also arranged for Kathryn to be in a car accident, which could have killed her, then had her held captive in a dark basement for weeks. Has Mr. Gold killed anyone? No, but I think he's scary and twisted as all get out.



The one thing he is innocent of is causing Kathryn's accident. Kathryn had decided to go to Boston. Bad things happen to people who leave Storybrooke. Gold took advantage of the accident, but he didn't directly cause it. Yes, if you take it back to the fact that he made the curse, he was responsible for bad things happening to people who try to leave, but he made no direct move against Kathryn.

I also think that Gold is taking teensy baby steps toward redemption. Yes, beat Belle's father and might have killed him if Emma hadn't intervened. But Emma did say he managed to not damage anything he needs, so even in his fury, Gold showed some restraint. I think that the fact that he was willing to give "Bae" his dagger and in fact had hidden it in the woods shows a willingness to relinquish his power permanently, once he finds Bae. We have seen him use money and power over the inhabitants of Storybrooke, but even with the fairies (nuns) he hasn't raised the rent and turned them out on the street. He didn't kill Kathryn. Now it did work out in his favor, but he could have had it work out with killing Kathryn. Simply kill her during Mary Margarette's trial. Once Mary Margarette is found guilty, Kathryn's body is found and obviously died only a few days ago, while Mary Margarette was safely in jail. That would have fulfilled Regina's INTENTIONS as well as the deal and still have put Regina in a very bad place. Instead he kept Kathryn alive and still kept the deal with Regina, to the letter.

I'm not saying Gold is a good person and he may well end up not redeeming himself. But in the time we have seen him he has tried to connect David with Emma's mobile, gotten Mary Margarette off on murder charges, manipulated things so Emma became sheriff and not killed anyone. During the same time Regina killed Graham, plotted to kill Kathryn (her only friend), worked to frame Mary Margarette, and gotten Sidney to take the fall for her part in the Kathryn debacle. Of the two, I think Rumple/Gold had a better chance of redemption than Regina.
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#197

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Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 7:54 PM

The one thing he is innocent of is causing Kathryn's accident. Kathryn had decided to go to Boston. Bad things happen to people who leave Storybrooke. Gold took advantage of the accident, but he didn't directly cause it. Yes, if you take it back to the fact that he made the curse, he was responsible for bad things happening to people who try to leave, but he made no direct move against Kathryn.


I'm perfectly willing to take it back to the fact that he created the curse. It doesn't matter to me how long ago it was or whether he specifically had Kathryn in mind - he willingly and knowingly created the no-exit situation. If I dig a big hole in a place where people are known to walk, then make sure there's no blockade or warning signs around it, and then wander off to do my own thing, any injuries to anyone who falls into that hole are on my hands, and that is pretty much what the exit from Storybrooke is like. Plus, in order to be prepared to kidnap her, he had to know she was heading that way and he did not stop her, so that's plenty directly involved to me. I also think he set up the whole law school scam. No way she could have actually gotten into a Boston law school. He's been long-conning for hundreds of years; a fake acceptance letter to set up the accident and kidnapping are much more believable to me than the idea that Kathryn actually applied and was admitted to a real law school.

But Emma did say he managed to not damage anything he needs, so even in his fury, Gold showed some restraint.

I would chalk the lack of mortal injury up to the fact that Gold is a scrawny old dude and Moe is pretty solidly built, not to some deep reservoir of restraint on Gold's part. I think he would have killed him had Emma not shown up, so not killing him was Emma's choice, not Gold's. Granted, if she had taken note of the fact that Gold all but TOLD her straight out that he planned to do just that, the entire situation could have been avoided. Maybe that's why he wanted her to be sheriff - he knew she would suck at it.

But in the time we have seen him he has tried to connect David with Emma's mobile, gotten Mary Margarette off on murder charges, manipulated things so Emma became sheriff and not killed anyone.

I don't see how any of these are actions that speak well to Gold's character or nature. Any connection he was trying to make for David was for Gold's own purposes, and had he really wanted to make that connection, he would have done more than point out the mobile. As far as getting Mary Margaret off on a murder charge - he's the one who set her up on those murder charges. That ENTIRE thing was HIS plan from the start. I cannot see how he can get any credit for getting her out of a situation that he masterminded, initiated and executed. Manipulating Emma and the election and setting a building with people in it on fire so that he could have a sheriff who owes him favors are also not behaviors I consider signs of a person on the path to anything approaching redemption. I consider his lack of a murder count to be strictly due to 1)Emma stopping him from killing Moe,2) Emma rescuing Regina and herself from the building he set on fire with them in it, and 3)the fact that he just hasn't really needed to kill anyone to suit his purposes yet. When it comes to that, I doubt he'll hesitate one bit.

The way I look at it, there's a fairly simple and clear way to deduce who Rumpel really is underneath the curse. The power the curse gives has an observable, physical effect on the cursee. That power literally corrupts the cursee's body. So I look at how corroded Rumpel was already getting immediately after it took effect (when he comes back into the village), and I look at how thoroughly gone he physically was by the time of dropping his son down a vortex, probably only a few months later, and then I compare that to how Zoso looked after having been under the curse for a much, much longer period of time. Zoso looked a little crappy, but not too bad all things considered, so it must be possible to resist the corrupting nature of power to some degree. The way I see it, if Rumpel's decay was so much more extreme, it's because he was already, at his core, a very weak and corruptable person.
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#198

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Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 9:19 PM

I do think corruption manifests itself in the physical appearance of the person who is under the Dark One curse, but we don't know what Zoso looked like before he was cursed; part of the time he was in a disguise and as he was dying the curse left him. Rumpelstiltskin did many horrible, horrific things, but he also lead 1,000 children home alive from the Ogre war battlefields, whereas Zoso, under the power of command of the curse lead many to their deaths in that war. It seems the curse had a much stronger effect on Rumpelstiltskin earlier on, before he learned how to harness/control his power. Perhaps he learned through the centuries that magic comes with a price and changed his tactics. Later he seems more adept at making deals in which others have to make a choice. Robert Carlyle has said something to the effect Rumpelstiltskin is the manifestation of the greed.. not only of himself, but of others. Magic is kinda greedy.. wanting something without having to work for it.. but they do pay for it, in the end.


Another thing I wonder is if Rumpelstiltskin/Mr. Gold is still under the Dark One curse. He is unable to use magic in this land, but that does not necessarily relieve him of his curse (as alluded to by the Blue Fairy). We have seen that even though this land (Storybrooke) has no magic.. curses that were made in the Enchanted lands continue to have a hold on people here until they are broken. Mr. Gold may still be under a curse, and he did offer a 'devil of a deal' to Regina.. but she had a choice whether to make that deal and she's not under any curse.


I wonder what happens to someone who leaves Storybrooke (and who or how that is controlled), it seems both Regina & Mr. Gold know what happens, but Regina didn't stop Mr. Gold, in fact, she must have informed Gold when Kathryn left town.

Edited by MorninStar, Apr 26, 2012 @ 10:09 PM.

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#199

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Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 11:25 PM

I'm perfectly willing to take it back to the fact that he created the curse. It doesn't matter to me how long ago it was or whether he specifically had Kathryn in mind - he willingly and knowingly created the no-exit situation.


Did he? I know he gave the curse to Regina but I don't think he is the one who controlled the details. Remember, he gave it to the Evil Queen on the condition that he had a comfortable life and she would do whatever he asked if he said please. Sounds like he was involved in the big picture but Regina is responsible for the details and day to day stuff. It could even explain why 1) Gold hasn't left town to look for Bae and 2) why he would want the curse broken. If he can't leave either then, comfortable life or no, he is as trapped as everyone else.

No way she could have actually gotten into a Boston law school. He's been long-conning for hundreds of years; a fake acceptance letter to set up the accident and kidnapping are much more believable to me than the idea that Kathryn actually applied and was admitted to a real law school.


They haven';t show us anything to indicate this. I think in this case the audience is put more thought into it than the writers, honestly. I think we are just supposed to assume she got in and go from there.

Manipulating Emma and the election and setting a building with people in it on fire so that he could have a sheriff who owes him favors are also not behaviors I consider signs of a person on the path to anything approaching redemption.


By those standards every spy or C.I.A. agent is selfish and self serving. They do, shall we say, questionable things in the name of an ultimate good (from their point of view). Aside from the fact that it is only an assumption (although not an outrageous one) that Rumple has been slaughtering his way through the world for all these centuries the Curse is, in part a selfish thing but may well lead to an ultimate good. I think he gets a bit of credit for that. Not enough to make up for all that he has probably done but I don't see him as all evil or a freak.

He gets a little pass from me, just a little due to the fact that he is cursed and had it thrust upon him. He wanted power but I have to wonder what his choice would have been had he been told just how it would manifest. He was tricked into becoming the Dark One. He expected to get the power but Zoso neglected to mention the curse. Maybe that's why he is always reminding other people that magic had consequences. Zoso even says Rumple made a deal he didn't understand.

Zoso looked a little crappy, but not too bad all things considered, so it must be possible to resist the corrupting nature of power to some degree. The way I see it, if Rumpel's decay was so much more extreme, it's because he was already, at his core, a very weak and corruptable person.


If you watch Desperate Souls again you can see when he is killed that Zoso looks as bad as Rumple ends up looking. He can't look too different since the soldier who comes for Bae mistakes him for the old Dark One and in broad daylight.
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#200

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 1:15 AM

By those standards every spy or C.I.A. agent is selfish and self serving.


Unless a spy intentionally set a fire to make someone else indebted to them, I'm not sure how those situations are analogous. For example, a CIA agent shadowing a potential terrorist... how is that selfish and self serving?

He gets a little pass from me, just a little due to the fact that he is cursed and had it thrust upon him. He wanted power but I have to wonder what his choice would have been had he been told just how it would manifest. He was tricked into becoming the Dark One.


The being tricked part is one reason he does get a slight pass from me. But the fact that he doesn't even fight the curse and killed that mute servant with a who cares shrug makes me pull back. I'm not sure I like how this show has "cursed" people not even able to fight against the curse. For example, Snow White having no qualms about killing Regina after drinking that potion. It just relinquishes too much free will from these characters.

I do give Mr. Gold props for NOT killing Katherine as Regina supposedly wanted, and keeping her alive.

Edited by Camera One, Apr 27, 2012 @ 1:16 AM.

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#201

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 11:01 AM

'm not sure I like how this show has "cursed" people not even able to fight against the curse. For example, Snow White having no qualms about killing Regina after drinking that potion. It just relinquishes too much free will from these characters.


I don't think the "curses," either the little ones we have seen or the big one, inflicts anyone with any character trait they do not already have. I think the show is definitely saying that we ALL have bad in us (on Buffy it was called your "dark heart," ) and that most of us keep that under control. The curses do take everyone's free will away, or at least weaken it, and bring out the worst character traits that people have. One of the reason's we don't see Mary Margaret as a toothless crack whore (not only because that would not fit into a family show) is that isn't part of her..Rumple was a weak, sad but angry man, so that part of him took over, Regina, because of the death of the stable boy, wallowed in anger, hatred and jealousy, Snow, when she took the potion was angry as hell at Regina, so that took over,etc. Loosing your free will, either to fight your bad side, or to choose your own path in life IS the curse.
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#202

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:48 PM

Unless a spy intentionally set a fire to make someone else indebted to them, I'm not sure how those situations are analogous. For example, a CIA agent shadowing a potential terrorist... how is that selfish and self serving?


They will put people in positions that make it easy to blackmail them so they can get them to spy for them. Try to help ,overthrow governments, etc all because they believe that what they do will make a better world which = a world they would like to live in. There is a selfish element. They want the world to be a certain way so they work and creating that world. I'n not saying they are evil but it is self serving. Perhaps a better example would be politicians today. They are supposed to be there to help make the country better. A public servant. Can you think of 5 big time politicians who aren't there to push their own agenda over even they people who voted to pout them in power?

I don't want to get off on politics, etc. My point is still that you can find self interest in anyone's behavior is you look at it from the right angle. rumple is just in a position to effect more people and do grander things to get what he wants.
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#203

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 7:08 PM

My point is still that you can find self interest in anyone's behavior is you look at it from the right angle. rumple is just in a position to effect more people and do grander things to get what he wants.


Degree matters. Rumpel has a completely different level(100%)of self-interest than people working to make the world a better place for everyone, and that makes him incomparable to them.

As far as giving him credit for not killing Kathryn, he had no reason to do so - it did not serve his agenda. I don't think not killing because one has no reason to do so constitutes a sign of good character. When killing has served his goals, he has done so without hesitation. When it doesn't serve his agenda, he hasn't bothered. If he gets points for not killing Kathryn, he might as well get points for not killing the guy who pumps his gas, or not killing the kid who bags his groceries, and if that's the standard, then the poor children of Storybrooke won't have time to play 80's video games and climb around on scary creepy mini-castles in the middle of the woods, because they'll spend all their time making "we're glad you didn't kill so-and-so" cards. (I totally want someone to send me a card like that) When he spares someone who could better serve his agenda by being dead, I'll give him credit for that, but not for the fact that he's too practical to bother murdering people who aren't threatening his plan, and that's as "good" as we've seen him get so far.

Edited by ViciousCircle, Apr 27, 2012 @ 7:17 PM.

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#204

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 7:57 PM

There is a battle being waged in Storybrooke. We don't know the whole story, but in every war, there are casualties, unfortunately. In most wars both/all sides are convinced they are right.. most feel as if their side is fighting for the greater good and that, in the long term, most of the people will be better off. Those who start a wars have their own agenda (known to the general public or not) and most of the rest of the people (those who have to fight & die) are just pawns in an elaborate (deadly) game.

Rumples/Mr. Golds complete 'game' isn't clear to us yet. Regina's 'game' is pretty clear. She hates Snow White and she's willing to punish everyone in her known world to exact revenge. We don't know yet if there are other 'players' (I think the Blue Fairy is probably one).

Mr. Gold very specifically did not kill Kathryn and he knew that Regina wanted her dead.. I don't believe he ever intended to kill her. But why? Why would it matter to him if Kathryn were dead or alive? He set Regina up, but why? Regina clearly wanted Kathryn dead for no reason other than to punish Mary Margaret/Snow. Did he do it just to show Regina she was not in control of the situation or what?
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#205

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 9:16 PM

Mr. Gold very specifically did not kill Kathryn and he knew that Regina wanted her dead.. I don't believe he ever intended to kill her. But why? Why would it matter to him if Kathryn were dead or alive? He set Regina up, but why? Regina clearly wanted Kathryn dead for no reason other than to punish Mary Margaret/Snow. Did he do it just to show Regina she was not in control of the situation or what?


I don't think he ever intended to kill her either. I also don't think he cares one way or another if Kathryn lives or dies. I don't think the question is why didn't he kill Kathryn, it's why WOULD he? What would he gain from it? Other than the fact that it was Gold that gave Regina the idea in the first place, which he did so that he could get her to use her DA connection to clear his assault charges, Regina's wishes in the matter are irrelevant to Gold. Gold's not working for Regina, he's working for himself. At any rate, neither Regina or Gold go around Storybrooke killing haphazardly. They both kill when it serves their agenda, and don't bother with murder when it doesn't - and in Storybrooke they have to work harder at killing. It's not him caring about Kathryn, but the fact that it's a serious pain in the ass to kill someone without magic - when you "can't turn them into a snail and step on them," as Gold himself pointed out. Without it serving his purpose, why would he even bother? Plus he gets a little fun bonus when he doesn't give Regina something that he gave her the idea to want in the first place. That had to be entertaining for him. Not killing Kathryn is mostly practicality and a little bit toying with Regina for the fun of it.

Edited by ViciousCircle, Apr 27, 2012 @ 9:23 PM.

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#206

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 10:36 PM

That was part of my point.. is that Gold felt there was some bonus (perhaps a petty one) in honoring the letter of his contract without fulfilling Regina's intent. It seems as if he has something very personal against Regina (and it won't get better when he finds out how evilly Regina has lied about & treated Belle all these years)


Getting back to what started this conversation, we were wondering about redemption and if either Rumpelstiltskin or Regina can be redeemed. I suppose anything can happen, but Rumpelstiltskin, due to his Dark One curse, killed people he otherwise would not have. Will that matter? I don't know. He also saved 1,000 children and brought them home alive from the Ogre wars and has lived a lot longer than Regina. In my personal and very humble opinion, the difference between Regina & Rumpelstiltskin isn't the number of murders, but that Regina was willing to kill what she loved most. Did that leave a 'hole in her heart that could never be filled' and does that make her unredeemable?

Edited by MorninStar, Apr 27, 2012 @ 10:39 PM.

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#207

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 12:37 AM

the difference between Regina & Rumpelstiltskin isn't the number of murders, but that Regina was willing to kill what she loved most. Did that leave a 'hole in her heart that could never be filled' and does that make her unredeemable?


To me, killing a stranger or someone who's not a friend (eg. Rumplestiltskin killing the mute servant) is just as evil as killing the one you loved the most.

If Rumple can blame the Dark One curse for choosing to commit murders, then Regina can blame her mother for sending her on the path of evil.

Having said, that, I actually think both Rumplestiltskin and Regina could eventually be redeemed, but only by making the ultimate sacrifice and feeling remorse for all they had done. Partly this is because they are both portrayed by excellent actors who have been able to show the humanity in these characters (sometimes just brief glimpses). On a lot of fantasy/sci-fi shows, horribly immoral characters like these can end up being crowd favorites (eg. Spike on Buffy, Ben on Lost), and eventually they end up working for the "right" side.
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#208

MorninStar

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 10:02 AM

To me, killing a stranger or someone who's not a friend (eg. Rumplestiltskin killing the mute servant) is just as evil as killing the one you loved the most.

Perhaps just as evil, but by most it would be considered more heartless and twisted to kill someone they love. I think most people find it shocking when someone has killed their own child, their mother, father, etc.. especially if they loved them. This show is making a case for what murderous vengeance can do to one's soul.

Edited by MorninStar, Apr 28, 2012 @ 10:02 AM.

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#209

Camera One

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 3:46 PM

That's true it does show they are even more heartless.
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#210

metaphysicist

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 4:02 PM

The reason Rump won't take Emma's case is because he was offended by Emma's calling Regina a "sociopath". Since Rump is one himself, he doesn't like people who consider it a bad thing.
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