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Discussion of Past Seasons


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#1

Scorpiosrule

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Posted Oct 6, 2011 @ 8:35 AM

Thought I'd create this so we can talk about what's happened in past seasons, instead of going off-topic in specific episode threads.

#2

CozyKat

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 11:35 AM

From the Episode 3 "Get a Room" thread:

I understand Alicia's initial shock and sense of betrayal when she found out about Kalinda sleeping with Peter, but I am so firmly on Team Kalinda with the way it's played out. She didn't even know Alicia when she did that, and when exactly would there have been a good time to bring that up once they became friends?


I'd agree, except that Alicia flat-out asked Kalinda in S1 whether she'd slept with Peter. Rather than ducking the question, Kalinda flat-out denied it, then continued to pursue a drinks-after-work friendship with Alicia. So it wasn't just a lie of omission. If Kalinda were just a garden-variety colleague that Alicia barely got along with, I might say she was right to lie for the sake of office harmony. But once they got into emotional-intimacy territory, Kalinda owed Alicia the truth, however painful it was for both of them. I think Alicia's issue right now is the betrayal that happened between the two women at work, the two years of Kalinda thinking "Alicia's in the dark" while getting Alicia to confide about her personal life, not the fact of the one-night stand. There's no way to immediately shrug that off. (I do agree that Alicia needs to stop ignoring Kalinda's work-related calls, however.)

Oddly, it's easier for me to understand and sympathize with Peter not telling Alicia, since the no-good-time scenario and the she-already-knows-I-cheated scenario were firmly in effect. In the early stages of the scandal, to say "Also, besides the 18 times with the hooker that the entire world knows about, I nailed this random woman at work once" might seem like pointless piling-on. By the time he was home on house arrest and realized Alicia and Kalinda were colleagues, it was actually kind of dangerous to tell her: If she'd thrown him out then, he'd have gone back to jail. If she hadn't, the atmosphere in the apartment would be incredibly poisonous, especially since he couldn't leave it. Either development would have been extra-rough on Zach and Grace. There wouldn't have been time or space for that graceful, careful conversation Peter and Zach had last week. And then Peter was running for office. I think Alicia was totally justified in throwing him out when she realized, but Peter's reasons for silence were more compelling than Kalinda's.

#3

Scorpiosrule

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 11:43 AM

Oddly, it's easier for me to understand and sympathize with Peter not telling Alicia, since the no-good-time scenario and the she-already-knows-I-cheated scenario were firmly in effect. In the early stages of the scandal, to say "Also, besides the 18 times with the hooker that the entire world knows about, I nailed this random woman at work once" might seem like pointless piling-on. By the time he was home on house arrest and realized Alicia and Kalinda were colleagues, it was actually kind of dangerous to tell her: If she'd thrown him out then, he'd have gone back to jail. If she hadn't, the atmosphere in the apartment would be incredibly poisonous, especially since he couldn't leave it. Either development would have been extra-rough on Zach and Grace. There wouldn't have been time or space for that graceful, careful conversation Peter and Zach had last week. And then Peter was running for office. I think Alicia was totally justified in throwing him out when she realized, but Peter's reasons for silence were more compelling than Kalinda's.


CozyKat, you've hit the nail on the proverbial head as to why Peter kept quiet worked for me. And yes, his silence was more compelling.

I wonder, though, if that was why Kalinda kept pushing Alicia toward Will--to go for it, be with Will--to hide her secret, so that it wouldn't be "so bad" if it came out, if Alicia had taken that road with Will in S1? I'm not sure.

#4

stealinghome

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 12:03 PM

I wonder, though, if that was why Kalinda kept pushing Alicia toward Will--to go for it, be with Will--to hide her secret, so that it wouldn't be "so bad" if it came out, if Alicia had taken that road with Will in S1? I'm not sure.

Probably, but--like with everything else in the asinine Peter/Leela plotline--I hate what this does to Kalinda's character and Alicia and Kalinda's friendship. Before Kalinda pushing Alicia to Will was sweet because it was just Kalinda wanting Alicia to be happy. Now that's tainted.

But once they got into emotional-intimacy territory, Kalinda owed Alicia the truth, however painful it was for both of them.

I'm uncomfortable making a blanket statement like this because there's always the Peter factor to consider on Kalinda's end. I mean, I get what you're saying, CozyKat, but it seems in a certain way selfish to potentially break up someone's marriage just because you yourself want to clear your conscience. Not that Kalinda takes no blame--she absolutely does, whatever the circumstances (still can't believe they've dropped the Kalinda backstory)--but that's a pretty cavalier attitude toward potentially blowing up someone's world after she's just put it back together again. In my opinion.

And I still want to know exactly what evidence Blake had that was sooo irrefutable. How the f did he know?

Edited by stealinghome, Oct 11, 2011 @ 12:04 PM.


#5

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 12:25 PM

I wonder, though, if that was why Kalinda kept pushing Alicia toward Will--to go for it, be with Will--to hide her secret, so that it wouldn't be "so bad" if it came out, if Alicia had taken that road with Will in S1? I'm not sure.

My take is no, or at least not consciously. I believed then, and do now, that Kalinda simply thought it was a good idea for Alicia. On which she appears to have been proved right, too, though Alicia wasn't ready yet then.

And I still want to know exactly what evidence Blake had that was sooo irrefutable. How the f did he know?

Right? This, and the dropping of the Leela backstory. I don't think we're ever going to get any explanation for either, and it's annoying.

I do think that Peter should have told Alicia about the one-night stand when the initial scandal broke. IMO that would've been the time to come clean about this - and whatever else he may have done that we don't even know yet. To me, it wouldn't be piling on, more like, well, since you know this, you might as well know all, so at least we'll be on an honest footing again. I mean how much worse exactly was she going to feel? Her world wasn't going to get any more shattered than it already was, which was totally, except that the kids were (more or less) all right. And she might have respected that he wanted to own up to everything in the interest of no longer keeping secrets from her.

It certainly would've beat having her find out later that he'd still been hiding something from her all this time.

But, he didn't, I suppose assuming he could keep it quiet forever, and missed his chance. I do get why he never said anything later, while still hoping to reconcile with her. And once Kalinda had already lied, probably purely reflexively, she was kind of stuck, too.

Interesting that Kalinda and Peter each made such a very similar mistake with Alicia. In my opinion, they underestimated her.

#6

Scorpiosrule

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 12:30 PM

We can blame the network bastards for Peter not coming clean in the beginning of S1 regarding Kalinda. They wanted the Kings to delay it.

And I'll take it one step further--I wouldn't be surprised if the same bastards told the Kings to drop the Leela story.

#7

stealinghome

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 12:35 PM

And I'll take it one step further--I wouldn't be surprised if the same bastards told the Kings to drop the Leela story.

Oh, I don't think the Kings need any help in dropping plotlines.

#8

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 12:40 PM

Oh, I don't think the Kings need any help in dropping plotlines.


You're right. Don't know what I was thinking.

#9

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 12:42 PM

it seems in a certain way selfish to potentially break up someone's marriage just because you yourself want to clear your conscience. Not that Kalinda takes no blame--she absolutely does, whatever the circumstances (still can't believe they've dropped the Kalinda backstory)--but that's a pretty cavalier attitude toward potentially blowing up someone's world after she's just put it back together again. In my opinion.

ITA in principle with not trashing someone's marriage to clear your own conscience. And I actually believe that in some cases, when you know an adultery will never be repeated, it can be kinder to leave it unspoken. I just think that if Kalinda couldn't tell Alicia when asked (and just silently walking away in the courthouse without a reply, in that S1 episode where she visited Peter in prison, would have been a confession), she should NOT have started taking Alicia out for drinks and girl-talk after that. (For me, the bar scene in "Hybristophilia" after Alicia won the job over Cary was sort of the turning point.) I think a message from this whole mess is that "My transgression is my secret and she'll never find out if I don't tell her" is kind of an arrogant assumption that adulterers make. I do agree that by the time Peter was running for office, it was simply too late for Kalinda to either come clean or break off her friendship with Alicia. But she passed up earlier opportunities to do one or the other.

#10

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 12:56 PM

I just think that if Kalinda couldn't tell Alicia when asked (and just silently walking away in the courthouse without a reply, in that S1 episode where she visited Peter in prison, would have been a confession), she should NOT have started taking Alicia out for drinks and girl-talk after that.

Yeah, I agree in principle with this. But at the same time--Alicia is the first person in forever that Kalinda wants to be friends with, feels pulled to. I can totally understand, from Kalinda's POV, not wanting to shut that door before it even opens, because human interaction is like a drug. And I think she was probably pretty conflicted about it the whole time they were friends (trying to shove it down as much as possible, of course).

Which is why the scenario is so fascinating and makes my heart hurt for all involved. Only better and worse options here, no good options.

#11

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 1:08 PM

Yeah, it's safe to say that people always doing the morally right thing at the ethically appropriate right time doesn't make for the most compelling drama or characters. Hence Kalinda! We can criticize her actions while still sympathizing with her plight. If there were no flaws, we'd care less.

#12

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 2:06 PM

I'd agree, except that Alicia flat-out asked Kalinda in S1 whether she'd slept with Peter. Rather than ducking the question, Kalinda flat-out denied it, then continued to pursue a drinks-after-work friendship with Alicia. So it wasn't just a lie of omission. If Kalinda were just a garden-variety colleague that Alicia barely got along with, I might say she was right to lie for the sake of office harmony. But once they got into emotional-intimacy territory, Kalinda owed Alicia the truth, however painful it was for both of them.

Wow - really? I had completely forgotten that. Did Alicia ask her early on in their relationship? Was it one of the nights they were a little drunk?

In Kalinda's defense (again, I know - I won't be kicked off Team Kalinda!!), I could understand her thinking that it would do no one any good at that point if Alicia found out about the night with Peter. I'm sure, of course, that she was happy to find any justification for not having that conversation, but that's why it's unfortunate that they dropped the backstory about how Blake and Tim Guinee's investigator ever found out about something that, theoretically, should have been known only to Peter and Kalinda. If neither of them had previously blabbed about it to anyone, I can see Kalinda's strategic thinking here: I know, Peter knows, and neither of us are going to tell her so we'll just let sleeping dogs lie. But I guess Peter did tell/brag to someone.

That was quite a bombshell at the end of last season and, honestly, I wish they hadn't done it. That's a tough road to come back from and Kalinda's friendship with Alicia was one of the things I liked best about the show. For so many reasons, it just warmed the cockles of my little heart: they're so different and yet it worked; it was exactly what Alicia needed at the time because clearly she lost a lot of friends when Peter went off to prison; it was nice to see an attorney who had such a good working and personal relationship with a non-attorney at the same firm; and it was nice to see Alicia treating Kalinda's bisexuality as a non-issue. I just miss that.

#13

Scorpiosrule

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 2:10 PM

Did Alicia ask her early on in their relationship? Was it one of the nights they were a little drunk?


Yes, it was early in their relationship, and no, it wasn't during the nights they were drunk. Both were stone cold sober--it was right after Alicia saw or read that Kalinda had gone to visit Peter in prison.

But I guess Peter did tell/brag to someone


There's been nothing to suggest Peter was the one to let it out--why would he? He had the most to lose.

#14

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 2:19 PM

There's been nothing to suggest Peter was the one to let it out--why would he? He had the most to lose.

I didn't mean to say that there was, but I could imagine Peter making a passing comment to some male friend at the office that insinuated a sexual encounter with Kalinda. I assume that one of them had to have confessed it to someone unless they were actually seen doing the deed by a third party.

And to be fair, Peter was hardly behaving like the soul of discretion at the time given the hooker episodes. I could absolutely imagine him getting a little comfortable with what he was getting away with and making an ill-considered comment to someone.

#15

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 2:23 PM

I assume that one of them had to have confessed it to someone unless they were actually seen doing the deed by a third party.

I don't think so. When Kalinda told Peter that Blake had found out about it, they both seemed genuinely shocked and bewildered.

(Which is why it's so annoying that we never got an answer there!)

#16

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 2:30 PM

And to be fair, Peter was hardly behaving like the soul of discretion at the time given the hooker episodes. I could absolutely imagine him getting a little comfortable with what he was getting away with and making an ill-considered comment to someone.


Except that both Peter and Kalinda made a pact to never speak of it again after it happened. Even last season, when she came to warn Peter about it, he said the same thing--it was the same scene where he confessed to having fallen in love with Alicia again.

#17

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 2:33 PM

Yeah, I think it's patently ridiculous that the show has yadda yadda'd over exactly how Blake found out, given that, you know, presumably only Peter and Kalinda knew. I guess it could have been an educated guess on his part, but he totally acted as if he had proof. UNLESS the original thinking was that it was tied to the FBI/someone set Peter up plot. Perhaps whatever forces were working against Peter knew about the ONS and let it slip somehow? But that seems...pretty far outside the realm of believability at this point.

[ETA: I hold out no hope, but it would be wonderful if that came up this season. Like, Peter and Kalinda cross paths, and they're both like "why the hell did you tell Alicia when we agreed not to?" and then they realize that neither of them slipped. Or, actually, let me rephrase the above--it would actually be good continuity if it were to come up, given that right now I assume Peter thinks Kalinda confessed and Kalinda thinks Peter told.

But this show struggles with continuity, so.]

Except that both Peter and Kalinda made a pact to never speak of it again after it happened

Which also makes me curious as to the circumstances, because--who does that? They make it sound like they took a blood oath.

Edited by stealinghome, Oct 11, 2011 @ 2:38 PM.


#18

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 2:38 PM

Yeah, I think it's patently ridiculous that the show has yadda yadda'd over exactly how Blake found out, given that, you know, presumably only Peter and Kalinda knew.


Frankly, I don't think the Kings or their writers even thought that through--how to tie the ONS into Kalinda's backstory--just did the quick fix [sarcasm] OH, it happened back then, just like we wanted to originally put in S1.

[/end sarcasm]

#19

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 3:06 PM

Except that both Peter and Kalinda made a pact to never speak of it again after it happened. Even last season, when she came to warn Peter about it, he said the same thing--it was the same scene where he confessed to having fallen in love with Alicia again.

Then it's all the more disappointing not to have any clue how the information leaked. I only vaguely recall this scene, but I thought the pact was between the two of them, as in, they would never bring it up with each other. Does that imply that they also weren't supposed to tell anyone else? Of course. Do I still believe that Peter could have made an offhand comment to someone about it, perhaps one he doesn't even remember? Yes. Will we ever find out how this secret came out? Probably not.

#20

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 3:08 PM

Do I still believe that Peter could have made an offhand comment to someone about it, perhaps one he doesn't even remember? Yes.


Why him and not Kalinda making an offhand comment to whomever?

#21

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 3:58 PM

Why him and not Kalinda making an offhand comment to whomever?

Because all of the evidence we've seen of Kalinda indicates that she's extremely discreet (in general, but particularly in her romantic affairs). We've been led to believe that Alicia was one of her first real confidantes in a very long time, so I have a hard time picturing her confiding in anyone about the night with Peter. I don't think Kalinda had anything to prove to anyone with respect to her sexual prowess. Peter... could be a different story.

#22

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Posted Oct 11, 2011 @ 4:09 PM

I think Alicia has every right to be mad at the both of them.

Peter: I'm not sure when she asked him, but she did ask if there were any other women and he said no. Also, as another poster mentioned he could have came clean when the scandal first broke. If he wants their relationship to be established on honesty, he has to start with being honest first. If he told her before she worked at L&G, she would have been hurt, but not to the extreme as she was in the second finale. Even during the friendship, I know Alicia was finally finding someone to trust again. But, it is preferable over being blindsided by some stranger. There is no way he could have known it would get out, but then again, he found out he was illegally wire-taped, so it shouldn't surprise him that someone else could know.

Then Kalinda...no, they weren't friends. But, Alicia questions Kalinda's intentions during their friendship. She wonders if everything they meant to one another was real. And even if the woman knows the mistress (being used loosely) or not, most of them still get angry at them for sleeping with their husbands. It may not be reasonable to us, but it is very personal for them. For Alicia, it incredibly personal--her moral code. She would never sleep with a married man--never dream of it. I know there is an argument for her relationship with Will now. But, there is a difference between sleeping with a man who's wife thinks they have a happy marriage and sleeping with a woman who's husband knows that they are separated. Apples and oranges.

Peter definitely owed Alicia the truth--after everything she endured. Even if Alicia decided to leave him, at least she knew the truth about his indiscretions. At least he knew he was doing everything he could and being honest. The option he chose was to actively cover up the "night". Kalinda was in a lose-lose situation, but she wouldn't be hurting as much as she is now if she had initially told. It think it would have also set up an interesting dynamic. I wonder what would have happened if it came out when planned.

#23

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Posted Oct 12, 2011 @ 12:13 PM

Y'know, I didn't recall Alicia asking Peter point-black if there were any other nonhooker women she didn't know about, but someone somewhere on this thread indicated that she did, and now I'm thinking that's right: during one of her prison visits, maybe in the second episode when she represented a stripper and then realized Peter knew her and referred to her? I remember him just saying "You think I slept with everyone," which isn't much of a denial, but he may have been more categorical. My S1 DVDs are out on loan, or I'd go back and check...

#24

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Posted Oct 12, 2011 @ 3:30 PM

CozyKat, I've always just assumed that that was one of the (many) off-screen conversations Peter and Alicia had. I mean, I'd find it utterly bizarre if Alicia hadn't asked. So I'm working under the assumption that even if it was never really shown on the show, it happened.

#25

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Posted Oct 12, 2011 @ 3:31 PM

I suspect Peter had something to do with that.

I doubt it. What motivation would Peter POSSIBLY have? Wouldn't they attract more flies that they can then double-cross with honey? Plus, Peter has no beef with Kalinda. In fact, he should want people to be really nice to her.



Peter doesn't have an axe to grind with Kalinda. Even when Alicia kicked him out, telling him he'd slept with her best friend, the way he tried to respond...I think he said it wasn't Kalinda's fault? Or something like that.

Yet Peter loved/s Alicia most when she's at her most anti-Jackie I've always thought it's a nice character touch.


Exactly. I remember how he loved seeing her in court, and then there was that love scene in the bathroom, because the way she ruled in court, got him all hot and aroused.

So no, I don't think Peter sees/saw Alicia as his mother {shudder}

Otherwise, he'd have been whining and complaining about all the time she spent at work; he would have probably said something about now that he's running for office again, she should cut back on her hours. But he didn't do any of that. He LOVED this new, confident and sexy Alicia.

Alicia looked so horrid in the pilot, I'm thinking if that's what she turned into, maybe that's' what made Peter fall out of love with her.

Edited by Scorpiosrule, Oct 13, 2011 @ 9:40 AM.


#26

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 @ 4:18 PM

wickedgirl:

On the other hand, Blake was the one that figured out the Leelah/Peter affair, completely turned around Alicia on Peter and destroyed the Alicia/Kalinda friendship, which also pushed Alicia towards Will.


Blake may have "figured" out the Leela/Peter One Night Stand (though the show never showed US how he did, it was just a bunch of speculation and guesswork with no proof), it was that investigator that Cary was using who actually told Alicia about "Leela", which got Alicia's suspicions up, and the fight with both Kalinda and Peter over the last few episodes of last season.

#27

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 @ 8:12 PM

From the episode thread:

I've heard several people say the show has lost its original awesomeness and that it's become something entirely different. Excuse me, but I just don't see it, I think it's changed but not necessarily for the worse. If someone could explain that to me, I'd really appreciate it.

Oh, and e) I really feel like the show has turned away from its initial goal of showing how a woman recovers a sense of self and competence and independence in the wake of her world being completely turned upside down. THAT was compelling television. Last season and this season, I feel like it's falling into the trap of defining a woman too much by her man. That? Not compelling.

That portion of one reply about sums it up for me. The latest idiocy with the CotW was just the last straw, was all. Initially, this was an absolutely fascinating story about Who is this person?, and What happens to her afterward?, and What about the kids?, and, How do she and the children go on from here?, and, What's next? And I put up with a lot of legal idiocy for that story, because it was amazing, and fascinating, and tense, and difficult.

I thought those were true, deep questions that the show was exploring, and very effectively, too. Even with all the problems I had with S2, I still felt the show was doing all that, and S2's culmination, with Alicia finally separating from Peter, though I would've preferred she need no further catalyst, was very satisfying to me.

But maybe that was the end of the story, right there. Because now it feels like a show in search of a story.

#28

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 @ 9:15 PM

HelenBack, you have a point but they can't keep doing the same things they were doing in season 1. I mean, no matter how great the storylines were, things have to change and maybe the writers were trying to be creative instead of sticking to the one good thing the show had in its first season.

Edited by Sheker9, Oct 19, 2011 @ 9:16 PM.


#29

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 @ 10:06 PM

I just think maybe it was a two-season story. And I think that's okay. I also think shows that have told their story shouldn't keep trying to go on when they're done telling it.

#30

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Posted Oct 19, 2011 @ 10:22 PM

I think the show will explore more of that. It's very clear that something will have to give VERY soon with Alicia's private life and that will involve the kids. I hope it is very sticky and dramatic but also surprising. I would like it if she decides to divorce Peter or stop hiding her relationship with Will that we get some awkward scenes with all involved and not the expected - gee mom you're a slut. I think also something will have to change as far as her work environment. Does she give up her life to keep her job or does she prove once and for all that she is an asset at L&G with or without her Peter/Eli connection. Until her work situation becomes less dependent on who she knows then she'll never be that strong independent woman.

I do think both things will come to a head this season.

Some of the things that have been raised have never been an issues with me.

I thought Kalinda and Peter had an affair since season 1 so I was expecting that to hit eventually.

Tammy wasn't on enough to bother me. I do wish they had kept the Giada? Is that her name. I liked her a lot and I loved her with Will.

Blake didn't make a lot of sense and I lost interest in the leela/layla thing. I don't even care what that was all about at this point. It may have been dropped too late but it's dropped for now. The political stuff last season was a huge let down and as I said on main - the main issue is that you can't tell a powerful story involving someone who isn't there. And just like Alicia always has to win, I found it ludicrous that the former SA always had to lose. That was a character screaming for some nuance. He was just as bad as Blake. And I actually liked WSC.

Carey needs to be at L&G. I wish he had come back this season or maybe taken him on a different route. Legal Aid coming into L&G is the best idea ever. If played right it could even make Eli more tolerable again.

I think they are hitting all the right notes with Will's story.

They need to move the Alicia/Kalinda story forward. They should be thrown together at work.

I agree that Peter and Alicia's relationship was handled poorly in season 2. I also think a lot of the L&G intrigue was handled poorly but it came together and had a great payoff. The Diane/Will relationship is one of my favorites on the show and they shined when that story finally hit its stride.

I don't expect fireworks every eppy. Even the best show of all time IMO - The Wire - had season 2.