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6-13: "The Wedding Of River Song" 2011.10.01


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#301

SunlessNick

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Posted Oct 21, 2011 @ 8:42 PM

It became obvious to me that this campaign on their part wasn't one that they necessarily expected to win; it was one they embarked on in an effort to avoid the true fixed point in time, which is yet to come.

Here's a thought: in a Good Man Goes to War, the Church is working with the Headless Monks as part of the Silence (in the order sense). But at the crash of Byzantium, the clerics talk about River killing him like it's a terrible crime. Granted this is the Doctor before the future the Silence fears, but TOA/FOD has to be later than GMGTW for them, so their attitude isn't really consistent.

So given the way the Silence (in the species sense) are hard to remember and think about when they're not there, is the Silence as a whole something that's rewriting time, including the so-called fixed points? (And whose side the Church is on a symptom of that)? As a Time Lord, the Doctor inherits the absolute time of Gallifrey, which, I dunno, maybe reinforces the true history.

I heard somewhere that the Time Lords were supposed to be founded by three people - Rassilon, Omega, and another. I'm betting the Doctor is that other - and if there's anything in the preceding, perhaps if he reveals it, and brings the name back into the universe, it reinforces history in a way it hasn't been since the end of the Time War.

#302

Sarah1281

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Posted Oct 21, 2011 @ 8:56 PM

Granted this is the Doctor before the future the Silence fears, but TOA/FOD has to be later than GMGTW for them, so their attitude isn't really consistent.

Maybe it's not that they're not consistent but that it's a different branch or that in their time that whole mess with the Silence is all cleared up.

#303

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Posted Oct 22, 2011 @ 7:18 PM

I heard somewhere that the Time Lords were supposed to be founded by three people - Rassilon, Omega, and another. I'm betting the Doctor is that other - and if there's anything in the preceding, perhaps if he reveals it, and brings the name back into the universe, it reinforces history in a way it hasn't been since the end of the Time War.


There is something along these lines in the speculation thread. But how do you get around the fact that we have seen the Doctor's mother who is a time lord and didn't the Doctor and the Master know each other as kids or something?

#304

Sarah1281

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Posted Oct 22, 2011 @ 8:00 PM

But how do you get around the fact that we have seen the Doctor's mother who is a time lord and didn't the Doctor and the Master know each other as kids or something?

Like everything else, it's a stable time loop. The Doctor was born on Gallifrey to Time Lord parents and knew the Master and then at some point (which may not have even happened for him yet) he went back in time and helped found Gallifrey. It would be quite poetic for him to have created the Time Lords and then to have destroyed them (or the opposite order).

#305

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Posted Oct 22, 2011 @ 8:42 PM

The Doctor was born on Gallifrey to Time Lord parents and knew the Master and then at some point (which may not have even happened for him yet) he went back in time and helped found Gallifrey.


I suppose that sort of fantasy of being able to witness your own birth would at least make some Lacanians happy.

#306

derekevans

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Posted Oct 23, 2011 @ 6:52 AM

That reminds me of Babylon 5, when Sinclair went back in time a thousand years and it turned out he was that he was Valen, the ancient Minbari hero.

#307

ErgoPropterHoc

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Posted Oct 23, 2011 @ 7:51 AM

Like everything else, it's a stable time loop. The Doctor was born on Gallifrey to Time Lord parents and knew the Master and then at some point (which may not have even happened for him yet) he went back in time and helped found Gallifrey. It would be quite poetic for him to have created the Time Lords and then to have destroyed them (or the opposite order).


Poetic, and a perfect redemption arc if it does happen in the opposite order.

#308

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Posted Oct 23, 2011 @ 5:14 PM

I have no ability to back this opinion up, but I was under the impression that Moffat was not a fan of the Cartmel masterplan. I seem to recall seeing him saying in interviews that it was the kind of navel-gazing continuity-fest that lead to Who being perceived as a niche cult, rather then a family show that millions could enjoy.

If I'm not pulling this out of thin air (and I think I'm not), then I can't see him going back to a part of the masterplan that was only ever mentioned in spin-off novel(isation)s.

#309

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Posted Oct 24, 2011 @ 11:45 AM

I was under the impression that Moffat was not a fan of the Cartmel masterplan. I seem to recall seeing him saying in interviews that it was the kind of navel-gazing continuity-fest that lead to Who being perceived as a niche cult, rather then a family show that millions could enjoy.

I don't like it because it's yet another thing that makes the Doctor special and unique and chosen. I think we've seen too much of that with the Doctor and companions since the Moff took over. River is his wife and part time-lady and their relationship is part of the fabric of time and space. Amy cannot be fooled by alternate timelines. Rory is the Last Centurion.

I would personally find it too much if the Doctor is also the founder of Gallifrey. It's an interesting idea because the Doctor doesn't really like living on Gallifrey or even the other Timelords very much. He talks of it fondly but when we actually see the other Timelords they are usually doing something nefarious. However I think it would be a bit too neat.

Edited by Beatriceblake, Oct 24, 2011 @ 11:47 AM.


#310

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Posted Oct 24, 2011 @ 5:32 PM

I think also the idea of the Doctor becoming the founder of the epic society of the Time Lords is flying in the face of what the Doctor was saying in this episode. He's become too big, too noticeable, he needs to step back into the shadows and become the simple traveller who's out to see the universe.

Having him become the founding father for the society that was known the universe over doesn't fir that.

Plus, the actual telling of the story is something that would be easier to achieve in a book then a 42 minute piece of family entertainment.

#311

Sarah1281

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Posted Oct 24, 2011 @ 9:35 PM

I think also the idea of the Doctor becoming the founder of the epic society of the Time Lords is flying in the face of what the Doctor was saying in this episode. He's become too big, too noticeable, he needs to step back into the shadows and become the simple traveller who's out to see the universe.

Well, as no one knows that the Doctor helped found the society then I don't see how he's not still in the shadows.

Plus, the actual telling of the story is something that would be easier to achieve in a book then a 42 minute piece of family entertainment.

It would be a multi-parter or an arc.

Edited by Sarah1281, Oct 24, 2011 @ 9:39 PM.


#312

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Posted Nov 12, 2011 @ 6:01 AM

I loved this episode. It was fun, it was touching and it wrapped up River Song's story and the one concerning the Doctor's death pretty nicely. I wasn't spoiled by any speculation, and altough I was sure the Doctor would find a way to cheat death, I was pretty much surprised how he did it.

I just loved the alternate universe, the tiny details like Ceasar Churchill or Dickens working on Christmas special. I loved that Amy - again - didn't seem to recognize who Rory was, and also loved that Rory - while not remembering like Amy and River - went on every time with a stoic face (We'll married. OK. We married, we had a daughter, and that is her. OK.) But on the same time he was wonderful as the hero, who just doesn't show fear or pain when it is abut protecting Amy. He always had the duality in the two seasons and I loved how it was captured in a nutshell.

I loved the wedding ceremony, from River's touching speech how the world loves the Doctor to his saying "Melody Pond. You are the woman I married." I am in the camp who says it was his way to say "And not the woman who killed me" and thus asking her to let the things go back to normal. But I also think he was intrigued by her, thought she was an amazing person, really cared about her maybe even loved her enough to not mind at all that he "had to marry her". (As was in the case in The Time of Angels, he clearly was annoyed by the thought that there was this woman, probably his future wife and felt it is forced on him and he hated it).

A little thing I wonder about. It seemed that Amy who experienced this alternate universe happenings was the Amy we saw at the end of the episode. Post-"Doctor is dead now", post-God Complex. On the other hand, is it true for River too? Meaning, was post Byzantium River who just married the Doctor? The other possibility is that she was pulled out from the moment on the beach killing the Doctor. Altough in the dream/alternate universe sequence River was just like the River we came to know, and not like the more innocent River who got kidnapped (again) by Madame Kovarian, it would make sense that what she saw in the alternate universe affected what she was doing and in that moment she saw the tiny Doctor in the Tesselecta, and thus didn't "didn't kill it", but went on with the "murder" and she was willing to go to prison knowing the Doctor lived.

I don't know if we would ever know which one is true (most probably not), but since I am a romantic in heart, I tend to go with the second option, because it would give the two of them many happy married years.

#313

Princess Aldrea

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Posted Nov 12, 2011 @ 10:34 AM

On the other hand, is it true for River too?

I think that River definitely knew. I mean, that was the only point of telling River, right? So she'd get on with killing with at the beach and wouldn't, when they got back, drain the weapons again and restart the whole thing. Besides, River told Amy that the Doctor whispered about the giant Doctor-robot into her ear during the wedding and if she didn't remember then she wouldn't have been able to do that.

#314

darkestboy

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 3:31 PM

Rewatching this episode again, it does improve on further inspection but I still think it should've been an hour long episode and explored more stuff, like the gang getting their pyramid, capturing Kovarian etc.

#315

Peplow146

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Posted Apr 10, 2012 @ 3:08 AM

River/ Melody said in LKH "I don't do weddings" I think she meant a traditional white wedding like the kind her parents had and she was a kind of gatecrasher at. Funny how she ended up her mum and dads honeymoon present.

Game of Thrones had a "red" wedding where there was a masacre. Doctor and River had a "black" wedding.
Everyone was wearing that colour. Including their captive Madame Kavarian who had spent most of the season screwing with their lives.

Reckon that was foreshadowing for S7. Doctor himself once said if things never ended new things couldn't begin.

#316

Molly McFly

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 8:25 AM

Game of Thrones had a "red" wedding where there was a masacre.

Considering that there's been only one (massacre-free) wedding thus far on the show, that's pretty obviously a spoiler right there.