Jump to content

Winds of Winter: Book Six Is Coming, Honest!


  • Please log in to reply

2438 replies to this topic

#841

illinidiva

illinidiva

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 3:38 AM

Interesting. See I take the exact opposite approach, that it's completely pointless killing someone off unless you spend time building up the character.

Also you can say it's bad storytelling, but you can't say it wouldn't be unexpected. Even after we saw Jon get stabbed to death everyone is expecting some manner of either non-fatal injuries or miraculous resurrection. Him remaining dead would be maybe the most unexpected event in the entire series. You yourself expect him to become a dragon rider and last until the final battle, although I'm slightly baffled as to why you think it'll be at the Trident. Do you think the Others are going to get that far south?


It depends on the timing of it. Jon dying at the final battle would make sense storytelling wise. I actually hated Harry Potter's fake out death and thought it would have been interesting for him to really die during the final battle. However, that is during the final battle - as in the ending of Book 7. It really is bad writing for Martin to kill off his lead character two books before the story has ended for no reason. Strikes me like something that a high school/ college student taking their first creative writing class would do just because they wanted to do something that no one else thought of without considering the plot or character development.

Both Ned's death and the Red Wedding were shocking, but made narrative sense in the story. Ned was the Obi Wan Kenobi mentor figure and his death kicked off the stories of his children, the real main characters. The Red Wedding was more shocking for how Robb/ Cat's deaths happened rather than that they happened. Even the unsullied are predicting Robb's death. Jon is the main Stark who is going to be thrust into a leadership role, so Robb had to die. It's the same argument for why Aegon isn't real. Jon and Dany will be leading the final battle against the Others, so all other potential leaders have to die.

As for the final battle, I most definitely expect it to be on the Trident. Dany has a dream of fighting on the Trident in either ACOK or SOS. And Jon will likely go south after his resurrection and meet with Howland Reed. I expect Reed and Melisandre to play good mentor/ bad mentor.
  • 1

#842

Dallas Fan

Dallas Fan

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 8:38 AM

I'd welcome some fake out where it turns out someone unpredictable turns out a hero afterall. That's been done before too. To me Jon's boring and generic, one of the biggest dissapointments in series characterization wise. Or he could become interesting villain. In fact, I'd like for someone who isn't from the main family or related to Targs in any way to pick up where Jon left off and become *the* figure. It's ridiculous that so many Starks and Targs are special flowers. Sansa and Rickon are so far the ones who are remotely normal among Starks, and Sansa's extemely beautiful and Rickon would be super fighter I bet if we had time for this. I'd take Sam replacing Jon and I don't think Sam's particularly interesting either.
  • 0

#843

benteen

benteen

    Stalker

Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 9:46 AM

Well, Tyrion seems to be considered "special" outside the Stark/Targaryen block.
  • 0

#844

ispycoffee

ispycoffee

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 6:54 PM

Someone up-thread was commenting on the effectiveness of the Nightís Watch- and there are some valid points made about how itís perhaps not as effective as a garrison. But the differences that the Watch served as prison sentence, too, for all the kingdoms for thousands of years- so there was a dual purpose.

On top of that, I think itís interesting that itís in the three hundred years since the Targaryenís unified Westeros that the Wall became gradually less and less important. For thousands of years, the wall was well-staffed and well-manned, and itís only since the Kingdoms become one that the standard has dropped off. Perhaps because there has been peace- fewer prisoners to send North to serve- or because with the Targaryens came the assumption that the Others and everything else beyond the Wall was nonsense? Or a hundred other options, of course. I just think itís interesting that those two coincide.

WRT Jon, I don't see how he could survive on the wall unless Melisandre has some serious mojo up her sleeve- and I didn't think she had enough consideration for do something like that. She's in danger too with rebellion in Castle Black and I do think she's more self-serving than to save Jon at risk to herself. That said, I could easily see something involving Bran/Brynden Rivers.

Additionally, if R+L=J, I could see that connection being realized by Bran and Bloodraven and relayed back to Jon somehow. It might be a 'magical insight' cop-out, though, so it's unlikely.
  • 0

#845

Blue32

Blue32

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 7:26 PM

It's ridiculous that so many Starks and Targs are special flowers. Sansa and Rickon are so far the ones who are remotely normal among Starks, and Sansa's extemely beautiful and Rickon would be super fighter I bet if we had time for this.

I'm not sure about that. Westeros and especially the Westeros nobility seems populated with a lot of "exceptional" types. In the beauty department, it seems like you can't throw a rock at the Westeros nobles without hitting a beautiful woman (Margaery Tyrell, Myrcella Baratheon before her face got sliced up, Cersei Lannister, Catelyn Stark, Sansa Stark, Lyanna Stark, the Targaryen women, Ashara Dayne, Arianne Martell, etc. etc.) or a devastatingly handsome man (Loras Tyrell, Renly Baratheon, Robert Baratheon in his youth, the Targaryen men, Jaime Lannister, Gerold Dayne, etc. etc.). Even the ugly men and women tend to be exceptionally ugly (Brienne, Tyrion, the Hound, etc.). As for other qualities, there are lots of exceptional soldiers/fighters who figure prominently (Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy, the Hound, etc.); exceptional thinkers (Littlefinger, Varys, and Tyrion); and exceptional leaders/war leaders. Even the villains are exceptionally villainous, sadistic and cruel (paging the Boltons, Joffrey, Vargo Hoat, etc.).

With all that said, there does seem to be something different about the Stark children. They're shaping up to some sort of orphan version of the Incredibles where they all have their own specialized extraordinary abilities, even leaving aside the warg thing. Robb was amazing in battle. Jon Snow is a visionary Lord Commander of the Night's Watch (before he was stabbed by his brothers, but still) and a possible candidate for Azor Ahai. Bran is a greenseer, which is apparently extraordinarily rare. Arya is whipping through her FM training, enhanced by her warg abilities. Rickon is probably going to turn into some kind of unspecified Northern badass (especially since the Northmen in ADWD are showing a crueler, more savage side). It's hard to tell with Sansa; she is exceptionally beautiful, which has proven useful, but I'd like to think her potential lies in becoming a political player (barring her storyline taking a hard left), maybe the new Littlefinger/Varys. (I suppose it also bears mentioning that Sansa is highly accomplished when it comes to all the traditional lady skills, even if they haven't proven terribly useful to her in her current situation: singing, dancing, needlework, writing poetry, playing musical instruments, etc.)

The Stark kids all being extraordinarily gifted does seem like a little much, granted, but I think it will make their return to prominence in TWOW/ADOS (assuming they live that long) that much more satisfying.

Edited by Blue32, Apr 8, 2012 @ 8:41 PM.

  • 0

#846

scarlett45

scarlett45

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 8:12 PM

My take on the whole "beautiful, smart, gifted" swarm of people in the royal houses is that:

1. You're more likely to be beautiful if youre well fed and healthy. You're more likely to be well fed and heathy if you're rich. Access to cosmetics and gorgeous clothes help too.

2. You're more likely to be well read/educated/ talented at sword fighting if you have time to develop those talents. As Tyrion said to Jon Snow in Season 1, of course he is going to be better at sword fighting than the small folk, he's had hours and hours of practice with no distractions of worrying where his next meal would come from. Loras even admits that he works at his skill every second he can, since he was four.

3. Who wants "ordinary" individuals? Extraordinary characters make for a more fascinating epic. ;)
  • 0

#847

Sad Doctor

Sad Doctor

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 9:30 PM

Well, one reason the stark kids seem so amazing is because we spend a lot of time with them. I mean Garlan(?) Tyrell is apparently an absolutely ridiculously good swordsman, but he's never really had the chance to show it off so nobody cares. Sansa is beautiful, but not OMG SO AMAZING compared to plenty of other attractive girls in the show. Sure Bran's amazing, but nobody else cares, same with Arya. Jon will probably be remembered as a warning of what happens when you don't follow the laws of the night watch. And Robb may have been great for his age, but in the end he wasn't as great as Tywin Lannister.
  • 0

#848

T o b y

T o b y

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 9:27 PM

Speaking of "awesome" people who seem to populate the novel/world of Westeros, has anybody been wondering if any of the background/tertiary characters are going to come into play in even a semi-important way over the course of the next two books? I've been doing a re-read recently and, in the vein of the recent convo topic, noticing how much I'm responding to some of the characters I didn't think about as much on the first go around. There's no way that GRRM is going to tie up every loose end, but since so many of the characters are so cool, I'm wondering if any will have an impact on the story?

The Daynes in particular have kind of stood out this go around. Edric Dayne seems to have potential towards becoming a pretty badass knight given both his heritage and the fact that he's young yet has already experienced battle. His current whereabouts are unclear, but since he was once a squire to Beric Dondarrion and served with the Brotherhood Without Banners, is it possible he will in some way take the group back from Lady Stoneheart? That might be a bit of a stretch, but certainly the fact that he is Jon Snow's milk brother is important? Couple that to his relation to Darkstar (distant cousins?) and he seems like a character that, while maybe not factoring into the main plot, surely would have some future relevance to the story. The relevance of the Daynes seems further strengthened by the theory I've seen out there that Darkstar is Ned's son with Ashara.

Another character I've gotten into is Aurane Waters. I think every fan has their "character I think is cool even though they marginally appear and usually in passing," and he might be mine. After initially fighting under Stannis (bonus points), he manages to sway Cersei enough to become Master of Ships, eventually leaving with his own fleet. You can't just have ships out there when they seem to be such an important commodity during a time of war. I'm actually surprised he didn't somehow get caught up in Victarion's move toward Mereen. I almost think he might still show up in some capacity; the ships just seem too important.

Anyone else's importance currently being overlooked? I'm not as attached to Robert's bastards and I'm not sure what place they'd find in the narrative, but people seem to love Gendry. I'm a bit more partial to Edric Storm...

Edited by T o b y, Apr 18, 2012 @ 9:28 PM.

  • 0

#849

Blue Nocturne

Blue Nocturne

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 9:44 PM

The Daynes in particular have kind of stood out this go around.


I would be stunned if the Daynes didn't somehow figure into the final confrontation. They've been mentioned far too many times and are connected to far too many characters to be irrelevant. Plus, they have the most awesomeest sword in all of Westeros. That's got to come in handy for the battle against the Others.


The relevance of the Daynes seems further strengthened by the theory I've seen out there that Darkstar is Ned's son with Ashara.


That's the first time I've heard that theory. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.

has anybody been wondering if any of the background/tertiary characters are going to come into play in even a semi-important way over the course of the next two books?


My vote goes towards Mya Stone and Myranda Royce, particularly Mya. Partially because I think the Vale is due for some shit getting real, partially because I think that Martin wouldn't have bothered naming or characterizing another one of Robert's bastards if she didn't have a role to play, and partially because I love the idea of Sansa finally have people she can call friends again.

Speaking of women becoming friends, I was fascinated by the weird bonding between Alysanne Mormont and Asha Greyjoy. That's a relationship I would love to see develop a little more.

I can't remember the character's name at the moment, and I doubt we'll see him again, but can I say how much I loved the captain of the Cinnamon Wind? His scolding of Sam was the funniest scene in all five books for me. Yes, even funnier than all the scenes with Jaime and/or Tyrion.
  • 0

#850

benteen

benteen

    Stalker

Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 9:45 PM

I wish Robert's three main bastards would come together (Mya, Gendry, and Edric). Would do them all good I think. Definitely would like to see Gendry play a bigger role.
  • 0

#851

scarlett45

scarlett45

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 10:27 PM

I think Mya is destined for some great things. I just LIKE her. I felt bad for her when (the character's name escapes me) broke off their engagement. Granted one could say that Zmya should've known that a Royce (?) wouldn't marry a bastard but it was not right of him to lead her on- which I believe he did.

By the way, who are noble bastards SUPPOSED to marry? I mean, if you're a recognized/educated noble bastard, I can't see marriage to one of the small folk being appealing....are you to marry younger sons/daughters that can't make other prospects? For example, Tyrion mentions that Bronn is now a knight, and thus somewhat suitable for the younger daughter of a lesser house. Had this shit storm not happened, I couldve see Jon being one of Robb's banner man and making a love match with a Mormont girl. They are feisty. Lol.

Edited by scarlett45, Apr 18, 2012 @ 10:28 PM.

  • 0

#852

T o b y

T o b y

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 10:51 PM

I would be stunned if the Daynes didn't somehow figure into the final confrontation. They've been mentioned far too many times and are connected to far too many characters to be irrelevant. Plus, they have the most awesomeest sword in all of Westeros. That's got to come in handy for the battle against the Others.


Agreed, especially in regards to the Others. No one has wielded Dawn since Arthur Dayne, correct? Perhaps Edric will ascend to the title of Sword of the Morning (maybe after the battle with the Others?). That would also fit in context with the connection he has to Jon.

As for Darkstar being Ned's son, I've seen it tossed around here and there, but it seems unlikely. Others think he could be Brandon's instead? That's all just spec though.

The Daynes are supposed to be, I think, one of the older houses in Westeros going back to the First Men, which would make sense since Dawn in supposed to be very old and very badass. This, too, suggests some role they have yet to play. Edric, at least. Since Darkstar isn't necessarily on anyone's good side right now, I don't know where he'll come in. No way will Swann kill him, but if he is Brandon's or Ned's son (reaching here), it might settle the matter of a male Stark heir producing a son who is capable of keeping the Stark name alive. Robb's dead, Bran can't have kids, Arya and Sansa are female, and Jon is a Stark through the mother's side; his Targ heritage will super-cede that. Unless Rickon grows up and is actually sane, who will carry on the Stark name? I've been stressing that lately, too.
  • 0

#853

benteen

benteen

    Stalker

Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 11:25 PM

I think bastards can marry other bastards. I think Joy Hill was originally supposed to marry a Frey bastard as part of the Tywin/Walder deal.

While we're on the subject of bastards...Alysanne Mormant mentions she has two kids but is not wed. Lady Mormont may or may not be wed. But the Mormonts aren't considered bastards as far as we know.

The Daynes have definitely been pushed to the background but I think there's something there with them. Especially due to their connection with the whole Tower of Joy business.
  • 0

#854

Sad Doctor

Sad Doctor

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 2:05 AM

It kinda depends on the bastard and the family situation. They're pretty much as marry-able as their family backs them up. So Mya's pretty much just some peasant, whereas there's other bastards who've gotten land and basically started up their own family lines.
  • 0

#855

MarySNJ

MarySNJ

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 6:56 AM

As for the final battle, I most definitely expect it to be on the Trident. Dany has a dream of fighting on the Trident in either ACOK or SOS. And Jon will likely go south after his resurrection and meet with Howland Reed. I expect Reed and Melisandre to play good mentor/ bad mentor.


I thought that was Dany's metaphorical vision of her destiny. I recall that she sees Rhaegar fighting the "Usurper's" army on the Trident but then the vision transforms and she's Rhaegar destroying the enemy forces that are made of ice. I think the Trident is there because that's what she knows of Rhaegar's last battle from the stories Viserys tells her, but that doesn't mean her last battle will literally occur at the Trident. I think it means she will be fighting the enemies of the realm, which are the creatures of ice - the Others. I think it's a Prince(ss) That Was Promised type of prophetic vision. We'll have to wait to find out if that's what GRRM had in mind.

I would like to think Jon will get a reprieve from his self-imposed life sentence in the Nights Watch. I like his character but I feel like anyone with potential and ambition is wasting his talents in that place. Whether he leaves the Wall to fight the Others or to find out more about his past or someone brings that information to him, I'm not sure. I do like the idea that he's got two mentors, or maybe advisors is a better word. Melisandre would have to change her mind about who Azor Ahai is and maybe the letter reporting Stannis's death will make her reevaluate what the Lord of Light is showing her in the flames. Reed is such a mystery at this point, I'm not sure what to think of him. He sure gets mentioned enough that I have to believe he'll take some part in future events. Why not advisor to Jon Snow?

While we're on the subject of bastards...Alysanne Mormant mentions she has two kids but is not wed. Lady Mormont may or may not be wed. But the Mormonts aren't considered bastards as far as we know.


I always assumed that Lady Mormont was married or else her children would be Snows, not Mormonts. But she kept the family name, so maybe that's because she's the heir to House Mormont since Jorah fled the country. Alysanne and her sisters may be Mormonts in name for the same reason because they are in the line of succession since they has no brothers. I suppose it's possible that Alysanne's children are Snows, but I don't think it's been mentioned.

Edited by MarySNJ, Apr 19, 2012 @ 6:59 AM.

  • 0

#856

Maximum Taco

Maximum Taco

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 9:30 AM

While we're on the subject of bastards...Alysanne Mormant mentions she has two kids but is not wed. Lady Mormont may or may not be wed. But the Mormonts aren't considered bastards as far as we know.


The Mormont women all are sired by bears. Duh. Bear-daughters can't be bastards. DUH. :P

Agreed, especially in regards to the Others. No one has wielded Dawn since Arthur Dayne, correct? Perhaps Edric will ascend to the title of Sword of the Morning (maybe after the battle with the Others?). That would also fit in context with the connection he has to Jon.


Right, since Ser Arthur the greatsword Dawn has remained in the castle Starfall, waiting for a Dayne worthy of it. I also have long posited that Edric could become the Sword of the Morning. Some people have said he's pretty young to go legendary, but he was 12 in ASoS, so he could easily be 14 or 15 by the time ADoS comes out. He also has connections to Jon and Arya now, I'd be surprised if he didn't reappear at some point. He's one the minor characters with some of the most potential to me.

Also the romantic in me always thought he'd make a good match for Arya. Heir to a noble house, a Dornish House who would naturally accept a woman's more independant nature, so Arya could keep on with her tomboying without any complaints. There's the Eddard/Ashara parallel with the genders reversed across the Houses. Heck his name's even Ned and hers starts with A.

By the way, who are noble bastards SUPPOSED to marry? I mean, if you're a recognized/educated noble bastard, I can't see marriage to one of the small folk being appealing....are you to marry younger sons/daughters that can't make other prospects? For example, Tyrion mentions that Bronn is now a knight, and thus somewhat suitable for the younger daughter of a lesser house. Had this shit storm not happened, I couldve see Jon being one of Robb's banner man and making a love match with a Mormont girl. They are feisty. Lol.


Noble bastards especially bastards of a high house (for example Jon), could easily be suitable matches for a younger daughter of a lesser house. House Mormont would have reason to want to get on House Stark's good side too, after what happened with Jorah, so it wouldn't at all be surprising if Jon was married to one of the younger Mormonts if he hadn't joined the Night's Watch. Especially if Ned/Robb had given Jon a keep or land.

For instance someone mentioned that Lord Tywin promises his natural niece Joy Hill to one of Walder Frey's bastards, but he also promises her to the heir to House Westerling (Raynald.) This would be possible because House Westerling is not exactly on the Lannisters good side and the Lannisters would be able to make a good match for Joy, to even the heir of minor house.

This wouldn't be as possible with the Frey's because they are just below the status of a High House (or at least they see themselves that way.)

Edited by Maximum Taco, Apr 19, 2012 @ 9:38 AM.

  • 0

#857

dcs72

dcs72

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 11:32 AM

While we're on the subject of bastards, I have a theory that perhaps the High Septon has a bastard offspring running around who could come into play with the faith set to become a power in Kings Landing. This could become a tool for someone to leverage themselves against the faith, either to ensure thier good behavior, or gain thier support for someone's preferred candidate for the iron throne.
  • 0

#858

BadAndyMk3

BadAndyMk3

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 12:41 PM

I think with marrying off bastards its all a matter of social standing. Between the high lords and the common peasants, there' a whole hierarchy of social rank. High lords, mid level lords, lesser lords, really lesser lords, landed knights, household knights, wealthy merchants, normal merchants, peasants, and so on. For example, Joy Hill is a bastard, but she's an acknowledged Lannister bastard. Raised at Casterly Rock, granddaughter of Tytos Lannister, neice of Lord Tywin Lannister. She would never be able to marry the son of one of the great houses or anything (unless the house was poor and she came with a MASSIVE dowry) but she could maybe go to the second or third son of a smaller house, or a landed knight.
  • 0

#859

benteen

benteen

    Stalker

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 2:27 PM

The Mormont women all are sired by bears. Duh. Bear-daughters can't be bastards. DUH. :P


I just don't want to think about the Mormont women getting it on with bears...

Joy Hill is an acknowledge Lannister bastard...which means (in the minds of House Lannister) that even their bastards are better than other bastards. I did like Jaime telling Jeyne's mother that her son wasn't good enough for Joy.
  • 0

#860

Maximum Taco

Maximum Taco

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 3:19 PM

While we're on the subject of bastards, I have a theory that perhaps the High Septon has a bastard offspring running around who could come into play with the faith set to become a power in Kings Landing. This could become a tool for someone to leverage themselves against the faith, either to ensure thier good behavior, or gain thier support for someone's preferred candidate for the iron throne.


Isn't the current High Septon super pious to the point of living in abject poverty by choice and having himself whipped?

Would he really be the type to discard vows of celibacy? Or do you mean a bastard from before he took the faith?
  • 0

#861

BadAndyMk3

BadAndyMk3

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 3:56 PM

Isn't the current High Septon super pious to the point of living in abject poverty by choice and having himself whipped?

Would he really be the type to discard vows of celibacy? Or do you mean a bastard from before he took the faith?


I think it woulodnt' make that much sense, not only for those reasons but also... I don't see him having bastards, and if he did, I don't see him caring for them that much. It seems that teh Faith is against the idea of bastards having any influence, since the definition of a bastard is a child born out of wedlock.
  • 0

#862

Colonel Green

Colonel Green

    Stalker

Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 10:09 AM

For instance someone mentioned that Lord Tywin promises his natural niece Joy Hill to one of Walder Frey's bastards, but he also promises her to the heir to House Westerling (Raynald.) This would be possible because House Westerling is not exactly on the Lannisters good side and the Lannisters would be able to make a good match for Joy, to even the heir of minor house.

That was actually a subtle "screw you" on Tywin's part. He promised that Raynald would have "a bride from Casterly Rock" and "have joy of him", which Lady Westerling assumed meant someone of legitimate birth (I'm not really sure who she thought it was, looking at what we know of the Lannister family tree, unless they were going to wait decade plus for Kevan's infant daughter). She was offended when she learned that Tywin had meant Joy with a capital J.

But in general, yes, bastards of noble houses that had their parents' backing could find good matches and good prospects, in real life. The early hoopla made about Jon's limited prospets because of his bastardy doesn't make a huge amount of sense, from how the series later developed, or compared to real history. It shouldn't have been any problem to make him a knight and find him a reasonably decent marriage. In addition to being a recognized son of Lord Eddard, he was Robb's close companion; that kind of influence would have been enough to snag a lord's younger daughter or somebody from a knightly house.

I always assumed that Lady Mormont was married or else her children would be Snows, not Mormonts. But she kept the family name, so maybe that's because she's the heir to House Mormont since Jorah fled the country. Alysanne and her sisters may be Mormonts in name for the same reason because they are in the line of succession since they has no brothers. I suppose it's possible that Alysanne's children are Snows, but I don't think it's been mentioned.

It's not unusual, historically speaking, for female-line inheritors to keep the name of the original male line, particularly if it was more prestigious. The Austrian royal branch of the House of Habsburg went extinct in the male line on the death of Charles VI in 1740, but the descendants of his daughter Maria Theresa continued to be known as the House of Habsburg (formally Habsburg-Lorraine, after Maria Theresa's husband, but in practice the latter part was rarely brought up) until the dissolution of Austria-Hungary in 1918.

I would expect that Sansa's would-be husband would change his last name to Arryn after inheriting, given how much history is attached to it (heck, the kingdom is named after the family).

Edited by Colonel Green, Apr 20, 2012 @ 10:20 AM.

  • 0

#863

BadAndyMk3

BadAndyMk3

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 10:26 AM

It shouldn't have been any problem to make him a knight and find him a reasonably decent marriage. In addition to being a recognized son of Lord Eddard, he was Robb's close companion; that kind of influence would have been enough to snag a lord's younger daughter or somebody from a knightly house.


Heh. If John hadn't taken the black and stuck around long enough to go to war alongside Robb, they would have probably married him off to a Frey. Oh, to be a fly on the wall for THAT negotiation.

"Lady Catelyn. In exchange for my help, your son Robb shall marry my daughter Roslin."
"...... Very well."
"AND! Your daughter Arya shall marry my son Waldren."
"................Very well."
"AND! Your husband's bastard son shall marry-"
"YES! Yes to that one! Whatever that one is, Yes!"
"You didn't even let me-"
"DON'T CARE. Whoever it is, YES."
"...Oh. Ok then."

Edited by BadAndyMk3, Apr 20, 2012 @ 10:27 AM.

  • 0

#864

Maximum Taco

Maximum Taco

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 12:50 PM

That was actually a subtle "screw you" on Tywin's part. He promised that Raynald would have "a bride from Casterly Rock" and "have joy of him", which Lady Westerling assumed meant someone of legitimate birth (I'm not really sure who she thought it was, looking at what we know of the Lannister family tree, unless they were going to wait decade plus for Kevan's infant daughter). She was offended when she learned that Tywin had meant Joy with a capital J.


I agree, but I also think Lord Tywin may have seen an opportunity there.

"Well, got 'em under my thumb, and they're proven traitors, as long as I don't get too ridiculous, they probably have to say yes to anything I ask. Let's see what I can get out of this"

And he may have figured he could get Joy maybe the best match she could have gotten otherwise. I mean the Westerlings are a lordly house, if not the most prestigious, and Joy's children would then be heirs to the Crag.
  • 0

#865

Sad Doctor

Sad Doctor

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 1:27 PM

I agree, but I also think Lord Tywin may have seen an opportunity there.

"Well, got 'em under my thumb, and they're proven traitors, as long as I don't get too ridiculous, they probably have to say yes to anything I ask. Let's see what I can get out of this"


Yeah, once the red wedding happened the Freys usefulness was done. They can hardly turn around and betray the Lannisters now, after all. Even if they hadn't just killed the last major resistance to the Lannisters, nobody else would take them anyway. And Tywin was smart enough to know that. And Walder Frey was short-sighted enough to not realize that every freaking lord in the Riverlands and the North having a blood feud against the Freys might be a bad long-term trend.
  • 0

#866

Maximum Taco

Maximum Taco

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 1:42 PM

Yeah, once the red wedding happened the Freys usefulness was done. They can hardly turn around and betray the Lannisters now, after all. Even if they hadn't just killed the last major resistance to the Lannisters, nobody else would take them anyway. And Tywin was smart enough to know that. And Walder Frey was short-sighted enough to not realize that every freaking lord in the Riverlands and the North having a blood feud against the Freys might be a bad long-term trend.


Yeah, although Walder Frey's a tool, he's not the sharpest.

Several readers have pointed out that more Freys have died in the aftermath of the Red Wedding, murdered by Lady Stoneheart, or Stark sympathizers than died during it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lord Emmon is killed by a Riverrun uprising soon.
  • 0

#867

BadAndyMk3

BadAndyMk3

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 2:42 PM

And Walder Frey was short-sighted enough to not realize that every freaking lord in the Riverlands and the North having a blood feud against the Freys might be a bad long-term trend.



Yeah. All these houses have a reason to hate the Frey's now and are just working for them under durress. Like Manderly.

Also, the Red Wedding will be known for centuries and being called a Frey will be shorthand for dishonorable murderer.
  • 0

#868

T o b y

T o b y

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 3:14 PM

Despite the Lannisters being just as responsible for the RW as anyone else, they're too well-liked by fans to be completely eradicated. For logical reasons, because the Freys are so many in number, it seems like they will survive the series, too (unless the Others manage to get far enough into Westeros and take them all out). But I sincerely hope George throws us a bone and exterminates the Boltons. They've been feuding with and then subdued by the Starks for years, and their participation in the RW should signify their end.
  • 0

#869

Spirit of 74

Spirit of 74

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 4:03 PM

I'd wondered about the whole "marriage prospects for bastards" thing, but from a slightly different angle. What would the naming convention be?

If, for example, Jon Snow hadn't taken the black and had married a no-name from the Winterfell servant population, what would their children be? Would they also be Snows, with a bastard name following them around even though they were born within wedlock?

On the other hand, if he'd become a knight and Robb's right-hand man, and achieved a marriage to a lord's daughter (one of the younger Mormonts, for example) would the children have had her name?

Also, why does Lollys' son Tyrion have the name Tanner, as opposed to the traditional Crownlands bastard name, Waters? I get that he was conceived in or around a tanner's shop, but that doesn't seem to be an option for other bastards, whose names are infamous and will always condemn them.

Back to TWOW, it seems like everyone has a similar wishlist: Dany out of Meereen for good, a clear but realistic upturn in fortunes for our favorite characters, and for some cosmic justice to finally land on the Boltons. Oh, and chapters headed with real names, not vaguely cryptic nicknames.

And the big one: a release date before the turn of the next decade.
  • 0

#870

Cory Lee Hill

Cory Lee Hill

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 4:31 PM

Aren't Bastard Walder's kids still listed as Rivers despite being true born. I know in AFfC when Jaime is talking to Rennifer Longwaters, Longwaters mentions it was the Son of Princess Elaena Targaryen's bastard son Jon Waters who changed the name to Longwaters because he was true born but stilled named waters. So it seems that bastard names follow but they can be changed. Although being the great grandson of one king and the distant Nephew/Cousin of several others might help in that respect.
  • 0