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Homeland General Gabbery: All Seasons Thread


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#361

Lannister

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 8:20 PM

Great episode, this is definitely my favorite new show. Like many other posters, I loved Brody's interactions with his daughter. I also got a kick out of the wife's frustration/jealousy at how the daughter morphed from superbrat into easygoing sweetheart when interacting with her father-a nice touch that I found very realistic given the daughter's age.

Bye Ms. Toast. I think the Prince dug you for real.

Honestly, I want the prince to find out and make his right-hand man pay for what he did, but I know I'm fantasizing at this point.

Yeah, me too. I actually thought he meant it when he was talking about her "beautiful soul". I agree with everyone that posted about her bravery-that quick, "I can do this!" smile she gave to herself after Carrie told her there was back-up broke my heart. Wish the character could have lasted longer-the actress did an excellent job.

I think that Carrie talked her into being a spy personally after she made it into the harem but she didn't really have much to do with Carrie because her guy wasn't involved with terrorism.

This is my take on the situation. Also, last episode Carrie referred to Ms. Toast's "contract", which seemed to be her two-year harem contract agreement. Ms. Toast was staying until the end of that, whether she was working for Carrie or not.

Screenbean I just wanted to say I agree with every word of your post earlier re: Carrie. I thought this:

Some traits of this disorder create obvious obstacles for Carrie, but other traits would serve as unique strengths for a clandestine, imaginative and driven operative.

Is especially true. She is already my favorite character and I want more of her life, not less.

There are tons of high functioning and brilliant people with bipolar disorder that are not under a physician's care, nor on a carefully regimented medication program? I don't think that's the case. If it is, then those people don't have bipolar disorder. By definition, bipolar disorder impedes normal functioning.

All mental disorders impede "normal" functioning. To imply that all people with bipolar will act exactly the same way if they aren't being formally treated or they "don't have bipolar disorder" is failing to take into account other factors that can mitigate or affect behavior such as intelligence, upbringing, other aspects of their personality, etc. All these things can affect how someone deals with this disorder in their daily life. There is a commonalty between those who suffer from this disorder-how else would they be diagnosed?-but to say the illness affects everyone exactly the same way is simply not true. You have both high and low ends of the spectrum. There are also different types of bipolar, some of which are easier to treat-or hide-than others.

Edited by Lannister, Oct 17, 2011 @ 9:12 PM.

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#362

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 8:34 PM

She's extraordinarily detached from people, IMO.

I think that spoke to her professionalism. She isn't some voyeuristic peeping tom. She is "stalking" Brody in the interest of national security. If it doesn't relate to that, she doesn't care what they're doing.

Either way, like Carrie, he is also extraordinarily detached from people.

I don't see that either. he has shown real concern, investment or at least interest in the people around him since he's been back. He's had moments of passion, anger and joy with each member of his family and Mike, at the very least. But functional sex requires more of him than I think he's up to at the moment. And that's kind of typical of victims of trauma.

On that note, we saw the first bit of discipline from him. I like that he chided Dana for disrespecting the mom. I think it was wise for him to wait a while before jumping back into that arena. And now that he's gained his kids' trust, he can do some of the heavy lifting without provoking their resentment.

Edited by esprit15d, Oct 17, 2011 @ 8:38 PM.

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#363

Midge

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 8:45 PM

I think the asset's necklace was the payment for the hit on her. I find it hard to believe that a paid companion would be given that level of "tip" then basically told to sleep with another guy.

ETA: I guess it is also possible that the necklace was the money drop they were looking for, and the murder of the girl is just a nice way to distract from the fact that a terrorist money drop just happened.

I'm liking Brody less and less. I'm not sure there is enough therapy in the world.

Edited by Midge, Oct 17, 2011 @ 8:57 PM.

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#364

Inquisitionist

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 8:51 PM

I think Brody was trying to get Jessica to 'play nice' and got close to her simply because he wanted her to behave during the interview. Interesting how she was the first one to answer the first question

I think you mean Dana, the daughter, right? Jessica is the wife.

I hadn't thought about Brody's "intimate" talk with his daughter being about manipulation, but wow, that is an interesting take.

I find it hard to believe that a paid companion would be given that level of "tip" then basically told to sleep with another guy.

I think the escort was more than that to the prince, and the prince didn't send her to sleep with another guy, his minion invented that story to get her out to the car.

Edited by Inquisitionist, Oct 17, 2011 @ 8:51 PM.

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#365

Sarah1281

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 9:08 PM

I think the asset's necklace was the payment for the hit on her. I find it hard to believe that a paid companion would be given that level of "tip" then basically told to sleep with another guy.

Who would pay several hundred thousand dollars to take out an escort? If they thought that she was a spy they could have killed her more cheaply or just fired her and removed the risk.
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#366

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 9:29 PM

I'm pretty curious about the Israeli TV series from which Homeland is adapted, Hatufim. There are a few English-language articles out there about Hatufim (such as this one, or this), though they are less about the show, and more about larger contexts, such as Hollywood's love of adaptations.

Has anyone actually watched Hatufim? Reading even the broad outlines, it's clear that Homeland has made major tweaks, chief among which are the addition of the entire Claire Danes character and the "has he turned?" plot, and the reduction of the number of returning POWs to one. But one article seems to suggest that the two Israeli POWs kept a secret, namely that there is a third POW, and I wonder if that plot will carry over to Homeland.

(More speculation than an actual spoiler, but black-barred just in case.)

Edited by corgi-ears, Oct 17, 2011 @ 9:32 PM.

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#367

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 9:50 PM

Has anyone actually watched Hatufim?

I'm sure that I'll want to see it after the Showtime series is done. For now I want to stay far away from that (and even episode previews) so I can really enjoy the show and not go "Hey! What happened to...?"

Was I the only one yelling at Jess to drive away from the fast-food intercom when she was arguing with her daughter about the affair? The last thing she needs is someone recording that on their phone and leaking it to a tabloid.

I find it hard to believe that a paid companion would be given that level of "tip" then basically told to sleep with another guy.

What "tip" did Ms. Toast get and from whom?

Edited by Numb Nut, Oct 17, 2011 @ 9:54 PM.

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#368

annlaw78

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 10:02 PM

What "tip" did Ms. Toast get and from whom?

I think the original poster is referring to the necklace as a tip.
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#369

corgi-ears

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 10:05 PM

In my mind, I'm hearing this whole "tip" exchange in Sterling Archer's voice.
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#370

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 10:41 PM

I hated the daughter for the way she talked to her mother saying something like how she's fucking around with the other guy. And hated the mother for letting her get away with it.
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#371

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 10:46 PM

I hated the daughter for the way she talked to her mother saying something like how she's fucking around with the other guy. And hated the mother for letting her get away with it.

But even if the mother was a competent parent - which she's not - what was she supposed to do? The daughter had the upper hand by holding the secret over her head. If the mother tried to chastise her or something she risked Dana going to her father with the information and that was something she was desperately trying to avoid.
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#372

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 11:04 PM

Screenbean, you are correct. I have several friends who are bipolar and the illness manifests itself very differently in each of them. The idea that Carrie has achieved her level of success without a high-profile medical history does not stretch credibility.

Moreover, I love the intrusion of her chaotic personal life into the story. It doesn't take a genius to see that her eratic behavior will bring dire consequences upon her head down the road. In some ways, it already has. Often times, it is perfectly acceptable for male lead characters to be great at their jobs while weathering hard times at home. Why not a female lead?
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#373

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 11:05 PM

But even if the mother was a competent parent - which she's not - what was she supposed to do? The daughter had the upper hand by holding the secret over her head. If the mother tried to chastise her or something she risked Dana going to her father with the information and that was something she was desperately trying to avoid.


Whether is true isn't the point to me. She's still what? 16? Talking to her mother like that?
I hated it.
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#374

InvertedCommas

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 12:07 AM

Dana didn't bother me at all, and I actually found her pretty sympathetic this episode. I was reasonably level-headed as a teenager and got along incredibly well with my parents, and I still had moments of being at least as obnoxious as she's been, with far less of an excuse.

She's already had to deal with the pain of losing a parent at a young age, the ordinary stress of adolescence, and now she's facing something that's complicated and nearly unbearable even for the adults - a damaged near-stranger with whom she's expected to have a close bond, plus a huge amount of public scrutiny. She probably has massively conflicted feelings about her dad, but she's self-aware enough to know on some level that she needs to be a good, supportive daughter to him (and he's also trying to be there for her, maybe more so than anyone else). So instead she lashes out at her mom, who's the only real parental figure in her life, because that's safer - she knows her, knows how she'll react, knows how their relationship functions. They're all clearly under a ton of stress.

Other than that, I still love the conceit of the different levels of surveillance - the news crews, the police video, Carrie's hidden bugs (and snipes to Virgil about watching the Brodys as though they're reality TV), and even the actual viewers. Carrie is still easily the most interesting new character in TV this season. And it was fun seeing Lawrence O'Donnell.

RIP Lynne - we all knew it was coming, but she was a compelling character in her own right, and I wish she'd had a few more episodes. I wonder if everyone mistakenly assuming her death was related will become a plot point.

Edited by InvertedCommas, Oct 18, 2011 @ 12:07 AM.

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#375

stillshimpy

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 12:31 AM

Interesting stuff in how much Carrie missed, Saul and the Lynne both had a better read on the situation that Carrie did. Carrie basically has only her paranoia driving her, her instincts aren't all that fantastic, it seems. Lynne was the person who knew she should swim and also pointed out to Carrie the the Prince as a terrorist just didn't fit with a man she knew rather intimately. "His life was about fun." Carrie was so fixated on "there must be something on that cell phone" that she didn't catch that, or give it any weight. I don't think the Escort's fate would have been changed, but she was right. Carrie is so afraid of missing something again, she's actually making that happen.

It took Saul hardly any time at all to figure out that there was an explanation, that the Prince had someone in his entourage who was a terrorist. I know Carrie is obsessive and meant to be rather gifted, but she was a whole lot of not right in this episode. Including sending that poor woman to her death, lying that she was being watched. Carrie wanted to find the connection so much, she purposefully put Lynne's life at risk for her own gains. Carrie cared when she was dead and felt guilt, but she didn't even hesitate in lying to Lynne and trying to provide "backup" (did she even have a gun?)


Yeah, it was just a matter of time for her. I think we all knew she was toast from the beginning. But after she asked Carrie if she still had protection for her, then I thought, oh crap, tonight's the night. I kind of wished she stayed around for just a little longer,but I suppose she served her purpose.


I think that part of that purpose is that there is some question about Carrie and the agency's decency in this. Everyone kept referring to the Escort as "a source" or some other ...thing, basically. That things might be the opposite of what they appear to be. That an Escort really could be very brave, and perhaps have a better understanding of people than Carrie. Or not. It really could be serving the great, "what the heck is 'turned' anyway?" Are you turned when you lie to a woman, who is helping you, that she's safe?

Also, the mortifying sex scene with Jessica, Brody didn't initiate that. Jessica wasn't just trying to make love with her husband, she was trying to reconnect with him, for a variety of reasons (many genuine), but one would also be fear. She thought her daughter might rat her out. I'm firmly of the opinion that Jessica did nothing wrong in moving on from a husband she believed to be dead (although, looks like she had pretty poor taste when it came to the replacement, back off there, Mike). Having said that, how Jessica couldn't have figured out from the first time that perhaps Brody wasn't ready, I'm not sure.

It's not her fault, but it isn't entirely Brody's either. I don't know that he associates being touched with anything pleasurable yet. I'm not sure how Islam views auto-eroticism either. I know Catholicism is famously against masturbation. I'm pretty much refusing to run that particular Google search, by the way, but have at those of you that are braver than I am. It's a very restrictive religion on a lot of matters. I'm not sure it's down with self-pleasure.

So there may still be more going on that Brody having a dim view of women. He's been so hideously beaten (and still flashes back to that regularly), he may not wish to be touched. I like Jessica a lot. I like the actress a great deal, but give the man some time. If the genders were reversed and a woman had been held captive, beaten, brutalized, goodness-knows-what and she came home to her husband who was putting moves on her in a quest to reconnect, I think that person might be called a jerk.

I'm not calling Jessica a jerk, by the way, but I think that rather than trying to degrade Jessica (although, oh man, that scene was horrid) I think he was trying to respond to her in the only manner he currently has available to him...because he's afraid if he touches her, he'll hurt her. That appears to be the reason he's sleeping on the floor, so that when he has his violent nightmares, he won't grab her and hurt her.

It just seems like the most obvious meaning of much of this is the least likely. I do like Jess, I like that she is trying so hard, but she needs to have more patience. It's kind of amazing that the poor guy wasn't rendered non-functional by whatever the heck they did to him. Jessica is in a little bit of denial about how deep Brody's scars run.

I'm not out to just defend Brody. He may be entirely turned. I just don't think he has lost all respect for his wife, or his family. Brody has no problem looking at Jessica outside of their bedroom. He was also encouraging his daughter to be grateful for all her mother does. Some of the things Brody does aren't necessary to maintain a cover. Plus, that memory of his daughter's play? That was the most genuine moment he had. I think he's just lost under scar tissue.

Edited by stillshimpy, Oct 18, 2011 @ 12:41 AM.

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#376

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 12:37 AM

I get the impression that a lot of Dana's issues are a direct result of what happened with her father. I imagine her as a daddy's girl in third grade when he was shipped over, the kind of girl that absolutely adores her father. And then what happened was for the better part of a decade in a way worse than losing her dad to war, because she never had the certainty that would allow her to grieve and move on. She clearly resents her mom for doing so.

At the same time, the mom also had to be the parent in reality, while dad was still the adored memory of the perfect father held by the simple understanding of an 8- or 9-year-old.

And that reality parent, mom, finds herself suddenly a single parent while grappling with everything her daughter is plus all the additional layers that come with marriage. Considering what she was up against, I think she did damn good by her children.

And given what Dana had to deal with, I'm throwing myself solidly in the camp that says her acting out could be a LOT worse.
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#377

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 1:56 AM

Another very compelling episode - although I have to admit that I found myself wishing they'd spent less time with the asset and more time with Brody and family. I think that's just my bias in favor of Damian Lewis talking, though. I did in fact feel very bad for Ms. Toast (and yes, I called her that more than once out loud thanks to this thread, attica finch! Heh), and felt bad for Carrie as she dealt with the loss and her guilt, as well.

Dana was much less annoying in this ep, I thought. Yes, she still veers into "bratty" sometimes, but it was more understandable this time. What we learned in this ep helps flesh her out quite a bit. I loved her conversation with her dad. And yes, the "video called Youtube" thing was cute, funny, and a little sad. (Again, I can't help being reminded of several moments from Life as Charlie Crews interacts with cell phones and other things he's missed out on while he was inside.) The show has made good use of moments like that - and Virgil & Carrie - to lighten the mood a bit.
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#378

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 8:55 AM

I also wasn't put off by the daughter's behavior towards Jess. In addition to InvertedCommas' astute assessment, most teens rebel at some point and this case involved calling out a parent in the wrong.

I know Carrie is obsessive and meant to be rather gifted, but she was a whole lot of not right in this episode. Including sending that poor woman to her death, lying that she was being watched. Carrie wanted to find the connection so much, she purposefully put Lynne's life at risk for her own gains. Carrie cared when she was dead and felt guilt, but she didn't even hesitate in lying to Lynne and trying to provide "backup" (did she even have a gun?)


While I wish Carrie didn't lie about protection, I don't think the lie got Lynn killed. Lynn knew the risks. Her possible death was already on the table before she asked for backup (she mentioned being "stoned to death" if she had been caught taking the Nazir video).

I think that part of that purpose is that there is some question about Carrie and the agency's decency in this. Everyone kept referring to the Escort as "a source" or some other ...thing, basically. That things might be the opposite of what they appear to be. That an Escort really could be very brave, and perhaps have a better understanding of people than Carrie. Or not.

This is what I love about the show. I'm a fan of character-driven indie films so I'm all about the gray areas, and Homeland basically lives in the gray. Anyone wanting to see things in black and white or place 100% of the blame in one direction is gonna have a huge problem with this show.

Edited by Numb Nut, Oct 18, 2011 @ 8:59 AM.

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#379

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 11:04 AM

While I wish Carrie didn't lie about protection, I don't think the lie got Lynn killed. Lynn knew the risks. Her possible death was already on the table before she asked for backup (she mentioned being "stoned to death" if she had been caught taking the Nazir video).


It's clear that Lynne understood what she was doing and how dangerous it could be, Numb Nut. In a way, I was glad for her that it was so quick. She barely knew what happened and I liked that touch. I was afraid she was going to have a fully hideous death. Still, Carrie lying did have a hand in it. Lynne was savvy enough to know that something was up and wrong. She called a person she had trusted, to give her a heads up. Carrie understood that it was something big, so rather than ...I don't know...make up anything to keep her from going, "Actually, there's a mandatory all hands meeting for CIA guards...so boogie." I'm clearly being goofy, but anything that basically conveyed, "You have no protection right now, don't get in that car. Stay where you are, or fleeing screaming into the street." It's just Carrie was driven and wanted information so badly, she took a huge risk with Lynne's life.

So Lynne understood the risks, but she was also being lied to about them.

This is what I love about the show. I'm a fan of character-driven indie films so I'm all about the gray areas, and Homeland basically lives in the gray. Anyone wanting to see things in black and white or place 100% of the blame in one direction is gonna have a huge problem with this show.


I agree on this :-) My husband was saying that at present we can't tell how good the story is, or is not, because if it's as straight-forward as it seems...it's a little too blunt. "Islam equals terrorist!" is not exactly deft storytelling. So it's character driven and actor reliant, at present. A lesser cast and this would already be "Oh..dear." , because Carrie? Not an easy character, in my estimation. Brody is nigh on impossible and Lewis is making him compelling and disturbing, with a dose or two of repellant at times (jeez, that sex scene was like the anti-aphrodiasiac). Great work by the cast.

I thought the actor playing Lynne did a fantastic job too, even if she was just hired for having a great figure, she did really compelling work. It was clear how frightened she was, but it was also clear that she had weighed the risks and wanted to try anyway.

Something about the shot of her in her party-girl, good times bikini just about broke my heart. That and her parents, who would just be so devastated by everything about her life (your beautiful, smart, special daughter becomes an escort? Oh man, devastating) ...except the actual truth of how she died, which they won't ever be allowed to know. Ow.

Edited by stillshimpy, Oct 18, 2011 @ 11:11 AM.

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#380

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 11:13 AM

This is what I love about the show. I'm a fan of character-driven indie films so I'm all about the gray areas, and Homeland basically lives in the gray. Anyone wanting to see things in black and white or place 100% of the blame in one direction is gonna have a huge problem with this show.

Ditto. I've very glad that my husband kept forgetting to cancel our Showtime subscription (which we got for The Borgias, a series I stopped watching around Ep. 5). Homeland is the only current drama I'm excited about watching.

how Jessica couldn't have figured out from the first time that perhaps Brody wasn't ready, I'm not sure. ... If the genders were reversed and a woman had been held captive, beaten, brutalized, goodness-knows-what and she came home to her husband who was putting moves on her in a quest to reconnect, I think that person might be called a jerk.


Very well put. I was stunned that Jessica was that overt with Brody so soon after their first attempt at a "reunion." I know she has been through a lot in 8 years, but her experience pales in comparison to his. As much as Jessica may want and even need to "reconnect," I think this has to happen on Brody's timeline, at least at first.
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#381

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 11:32 AM

Very well put. I was stunned that Jessica was that overt with Brody so soon after their first attempt at a "reunion." I know she has been through a lot in 8 years, but her experience pales in comparison to his. As much as Jessica may want and even need to "reconnect," I think this has to happen on Brody's timeline, at least at first.


I also don't blame Jessica for being so out of her depth. It would be incredibly surreal and there is a school of thought that suggests that if you want things to be normal, try acting like they are as a starting point. That said, there's no way to make this situation into normal by pretending that they aren't starting fresh. They are. I know she's just terrified on more than one level, that the life she thought she had put together just went away; it really isn't a matter of "fault", you know? It's more that they are both really lost (even if Brody has been programmed to do something terrible, he's lost at present) and she's so afraid that if he finds out about Mike before they have reconnected, it will be disastrous.

It's one of those situations where you can perceive the emotional agony from both sides. Brody said something interesting to Dana, that when he left, she was in third grade and they were still practically like Newlyweds. That at least explains why she thinks being sexual is the thing they need (vs. "hey, hang out for a while, get to know one another again, take it very slowly and maybe it will work").

I felt horrible for her, but I also felt horrible for him because even without programming, the guy has gone for years in survival mode. Tenderness and love would be like concepts from outer-space. Mostly I just hope that poor, humiliated Jessica figured that out. "Okay, still not yet, and yowza...what did they do to you?" and slows down a bit, for her own sake, but for Brody's too. I suspect he's also trying to connect, but he's just so deeply freaking broken at a core level, there's no way right now.

Plus, Mike's a rampant turd. When Jessica said that she kept everything the same and Mike smirked, "Not everything." Okay, dude, gross. Yes, you've been there too and could you maybe go stuff a sock in it? Ugh.
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#382

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 11:33 AM

how Jessica couldn't have figured out from the first time that perhaps Brody wasn't ready, I'm not sure. ... If the genders were reversed and a woman had been held captive, beaten, brutalized, goodness-knows-what and she came home to her husband who was putting moves on her in a quest to reconnect, I think that person might be called a jerk.

Very well put. I was stunned that Jessica was that overt with Brody so soon after their first attempt at a "reunion." I know she has been through a lot in 8 years, but her experience pales in comparison to his. As much as Jessica may want and even need to "reconnect," I think this has to happen on Brody's timeline, at least at first.


Yes and yes. (***claps***). I rewatched last night at a more reasonable hour. It's even more awkward. My initial thought was that Jessica's effort to put the moves on was just ridiculous -- Brody is a mess and not ready, and the whole thing just went down hill from there. I know she's trying and probably has no idea what to do, but still.... Try talking first, y'know? (But I guess there has to be at least one (if not two) naked women per episode).

Brody seems to be making more of an effort to reconnect with the kids, which is probably a lot easier for him.

And there's a lot of interesting, subtle body language going on during the interview scene. Brody kind of ignores Jessica. I'm sure during his captivity he thought of nothing but getting home to her, but now that's she's tangible he's completely freaked out. I can buy it for now.

And put me on record as thinking Mike is bad news. We'll see.
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#383

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 11:39 AM

I know she's trying and probably has no idea what to do, but still.... Try talking first, y'know? (But I guess there has to be at least one (if not two) naked women per episode).


I thought at first she was just trying to cuddle up for a bit, in her plain tee, rather than the "hey, have you noticed I'm wearing super sexy lingerie? Pressure!" garb.

I know it wasn't a funny moment, at all, but it was a little surprising from the "Okay, so maybe a back-rub and a cuddle would be in order rather than...oh my lord, that went even worse than I thought it would." That's actually what brought the "gender swap" thought to mind. I just don't know a clearer signal that someone isn't warmed up to an idea than keeping their back turned.

I really like Jessica. I think she's being incredibly brave and trying so hard. But I was more heartened by the gentle leg touch then I was by the less pressured (and yet still too much pressure) attempt at pitching some happy woo. Happy woo time is on hold, Jessica. For your sake as much as anything.

I think it's really clear that I'm pulling for the Brodys on all fronts. I hope Brody can find his way out of his personal darkness and I hope that Jessica finds a way to want to wait for that time. I even sort of like the teenage daughter, who has some really understandable issues and anger, yet managed to put some effort into trying, for her dad and even for her mom.

Edited by stillshimpy, Oct 18, 2011 @ 11:42 AM.

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#384

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 12:03 PM

Happy woo time is on hold, Jessica. For your sake as much as anything.

LOL! So true. Save yourself, girl.

Even though the teenage daughter essentially annoys me (i really think it's a casting issue in my opinion. she seems to be pretending to be hardcore and not actually hardcore. unfortunately, she's surrounded by BRILLIANT actors, so it makes her inadequacies shine more) she has my sympathies. I can't even fathom what that childhood must be like. Also, her mom, who also has my sympathies, uses the "yell and walk away" approach to parenting, and not the (much tougher) "try to understand you and have a conversation on values" method. It's the difference between handing you child food on a plate and throwing it at them balled up in a napkin.
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#385

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 1:09 PM

I might be in the minority here but I think Brody is going to be a terrorist. I think having him fight the brainwashing and become a "good guy" would be the easy way out. I would like it if he did end up causing harm to his country b/c that would lead to a much more compelling story and future storylines. But I don't think Showtime would go that route.

I also think he is playing his daughter. I think he is getting her to fall in line so they are portrayed as a joint and strong family (increasing his rep in the process) and possibly leading to future roles within the government.

And Mike reminds me too much of Matt Damon...

Edited by djsunyc, Oct 18, 2011 @ 1:11 PM.

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#386

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 2:57 PM

I might be in the minority here but I think Brody is going to be a terrorist. I think having him fight the brainwashing and become a "good guy" would be the easy way out. I would like it if he did end up causing harm to his country b/c that would lead to a much more compelling story and future storylines. But I don't think Showtime would go that route.

I'm close to positive that he isn't just a good guy, or that would be pretty boring. But each viewer falls at different points on the ANTI-HERO <----------> FLAT-OUT VILLAIN spectrum. Some even have different thresholds for what makes someone a true villain. I, for one, wouldn't mind a sympathetic villain that struggles with his evil, falters and then is ultimately redeemed or completely goes evil (either eventuality would satisfy me). But, we have a long row to hoe before I can speculate that far into the future.
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#387

attica finch

attica finch

    Stalker

Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 3:56 PM

I think he made eggs for breakfast cuz that's the most common American breakfast. I didn't see any terrorist connection in that.

It's not that the breakfast he made for the kids that's terrorist-ish, it's that that was the breakfast Nazir served to him -- all-American eggs and sausage (pork?!?). After letting him out into the prayer room, we're led to believe that feeding him food from home was a signifying act of kindness by his captor Nazir, or (maybe) the first act on the road to turning him. So it's not that Brody's connecting the food (although maybe he is), it's that the show is. A visual callback.

he's afraid if he touches her, he'll hurt her.

I'm not seeing that, stillshimpy. I'm not saying it's not the case, but rather that, imo, we don't have evidence to support it. My view is that he was not connecting to her at all, not out of concern for her pain, but out of concern for his own. And I think he's sleeping on the floor as much because he's used to it as anything else. But I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise with more evidence.

Edited by attica finch, Oct 18, 2011 @ 4:00 PM.

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#388

stillshimpy

stillshimpy

    Stalker

Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 3:57 PM

I'm close to positive that he isn't just a good guy, or that would be pretty boring. But each viewer falls at different points on the ANTI-HERO <----------> FLAT-OUT VILLAIN spectrum. Some even have different thresholds for what makes someone a true villain. I, for one, wouldn't mind a sympathetic villain that struggles with his evil, falters and then is ultimately redeemed or completely goes evil (either eventuality would satisfy me). But, we have a long row to hoe before I can speculate that far into the future.


Same here, esprit15d. I don't think there's any way, at this point, for Brody to be just one thing or the other. In flashbacks he's cleaned up and getting ready for prayer, which suggests that at some point his captors had a lot of reason to believe they were successful. He's clearly not "I'm just damaged from being a POW."

Particularly the things he said in the one-on-one interview were alarming, because technically, they are all true. His country declared him dead or at least acted as if he was. By the time Carrie was being whispered to in Iraq, which was what, five years ago in the time-line? She didn't even bother telling anyone, because she thought it was useless information. She thought all the POWs were dead. His fellow Marines weren't coming for him and never actually did (with the express purpose of finding him) and technically, his wife was not only in the arms of another, she was evidently in the arms of his best friend. I'm pretty sure he freaking knows that, from the way he said, "Uncle Mike." Also, he saw them in the kitchen.

I don't even know if Brody, as Brody could fight his way back and win, but I am hoping that he perhaps starts examining the faith he found. I think that would be an interesting twist. If the thing that helps "save" him is the very thing that was used to make him into who he is now. That shot of him in the mirror was a pretty important one, all clean and ready for prayer. That would be pretty daring, more daring than "They corrupted him." Terrorism misuses religion for its own gains, but the messages of those religions aren't bad ones. I'm personally agnostic (raised Episcopal, if matters in considering my opinion), but it would be an interesting twist to see Brody win whatever battle is going on within him not by returning to "Apple pie! Baseball! Family and Thanksgiving Turkey! I feel my strength returning." but by having actual faith, vs. manipulated faith.

I really think, "Aha! He's praying and he's clearly joined the ranks of Muslims! Eek!" is also awfully simplistic.

By the way, how many episodes are there in this season, does anyone know?

I also think he is playing his daughter. I think he is getting her to fall in line so they are portrayed as a joint and strong family (increasing his rep in the process) and possibly leading to future roles within the government.


I agree on that, but I think he bumped into a genuine memory he holds when it comes to Dana. That's the problem with having this guy come home, enemy of his own family and country and act. Somewhere in there he has genuine feelings for his children and probably his wife too.

I do like that the plot Carrie is getting closer to -- the couple by the airport -- may or may not be related.

ETA: Complete aside, but whereas this is my personal pick for best new show in the fall, wow, I dislike the credits. The first dozen or so shots are neat and compelling, but they go on forever and just become sort of tedious. Particularly the voice-over element. Such a good show. Such crap credits.

Edited by stillshimpy, Oct 18, 2011 @ 4:16 PM.

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#389

HelenBack

HelenBack

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 4:32 PM

By the time Carrie was being whispered to in Iraq, which was what, five years ago in the time-line? She didn't even bother telling anyone, because she thought it was useless information.

It was useless information. She had absolutely nothing to go on. Not a name, not a location, not a captor's group identity, nothing. Not even vague hints at any of those things. I'm sure the condemned man was about to give some detail, but there wasn't time... what she did get was about as actionable as "Not all thylacines are extinct."
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#390

stillshimpy

stillshimpy

    Stalker

Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 4:43 PM

It was useless information. She had absolutely nothing to go on. Not a name, not a location, not a captor's group identity, nothing. Not even vague hints at any of those things. I'm sure the condemned man was about to give some detail, but there wasn't time... what she did get was about as actionable as "Not all thylacines are extinct."


Truly, it would seem to be, but it wasn't actually useless in that, had she told someone at the time, there might have been a different approach to Nicholas Brody when he was found. Whereas she had no actual reason to think it was actionable (and you're right, HelenBack), Carrie actually not telling anyone is simply odd. Her neck was on the line for causing an incident, was she trying to save face by not revealing, "Yes, and the scene I caused was ultra useless, because look at this complete turd of information that I got."

They didn't have a pile of bodies. They were working from an assumption. That piece of information in the hands of someone still working in the agency might have changed that assumption. Heck, they might have thought to start looking.

Had she given it to anyone, they might have a) thought "Holy crap, there is a POW out there?" b) acted upon that or c) had the entire agency on alert when Nicholas Brody was found, rather than "the woman who has been out in the cold for five years is now claiming this is what she was told." It might not have made sense to tell anyone, but it made less sense to not tell anyone. Both are pretty senseless, but if we're talking degrees? She's in the information business. Pass on the information, even if it sounds insane.

But I think that's the key. Carrie didn't tell anyone, because she'd already been caught acting like a crazy person. She's concealing a mental illness. She didn't tell anyone so that she wouldn't sound like she'd gone completely round the bend. At least, that makes sense to me. Doesn't mean it's true, just what I'm working from over here.

Also, Carrie not listening to Lynne drove me nearly up a tree. She really does miss important things. That's part of the reason I'm not trusting the POV from Carrie's apartment. If a scene happens in front of those cameras and has Carrie bearing witness to it? I think there's some reason to believe that her judgment is not fully, but at least a little bit, flawed.

ETA: Saul asks Carrie why she didn't tell anyone. She replies, "because I didn't think there were any POWs left in Iraq." Well unless they have the identified remains of all of them, that's pretty flawed logic. She deemed it not possible, because all POWs were presumed dead. Not because they were known to be. There would be a known number of missing-in-action, presumed dead soldiers/marines. It isn't "somewhere, out there, there is a unicorn!" but a relatively small number of "believed to be captured, presumed dead" files to go through which might not lead to a darned thing other than, "No, we still think they are all dead and this guy was lying through his teeth." But it certainly would have changed the scope of that debriefing in Germany when one turned up alive, years later.

Edited by stillshimpy, Oct 18, 2011 @ 5:11 PM.

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