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Cersei Lannister: Keeping It in the Family


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#31

Constantinople

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 11:12 AM

she has been struggling and fighting her whole life, so that's what she's good at


I don't think she's had to struggle or fight at all.

She became Queen because she's Tywin Lannister's daughter.

She made almost no effort to make her marriage a success. She gave-up after hearing "Leanna".

She made no effort to raise her son as a responsible human being, and turned him into an even worse copy of her.

She became Queen Regent because Ned Stark scored one own goal after another and because Littlefinger/Pycelle/Slynt went with the program.
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#32

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Posted May 27, 2012 @ 10:23 PM

She was such a bitch tonight to Sansa (and Shae too, for that matter) but damn if I couldn't sympathize with her on some level. For all her faults, she truly does love her children.

And she's a funny, bitter, and mean drunk to boot. I dug how astutely she analyzed Shae despite being three sheets to the wind, but still being able to curtsy.
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#33

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Posted May 27, 2012 @ 10:48 PM

Lena Headey killed it this episode, first with Drunk!Cersei doing her best impression of Lucille Bluth, and then with her heartbreaking little story to Tommen as she prepared to poison him. Amazing stuff.

Edited by Blue32, May 28, 2012 @ 1:07 AM.

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#34

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Posted May 28, 2012 @ 12:24 AM

I don't have any great love for Cersei but I just love watching her so much. Lena Headey has really dominated this season. All of her scenes with Peter Dinklage have been golden (and I, personally, think she gives him a run for his money acting wise) but this episode was just wonderful to have go from drunken evil queen to loving determined mother.

I said this in the episode thread but I really think the three siblings are all very similar. They all rock a monologue. They all can read people and cut them down if needed. They all have a sense of humor. They can all go from amiable to stone cold killer if needed (Tyrion has more issues with the killer aspect, though). They all have a great capacity for love (Cersei is very flawed but her love for her children goes very very deep). And I think they all have their own unique sense of honor but do have a sense of honor.

I hope she never dies.

Edited by Betsyb, May 28, 2012 @ 12:29 AM.

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#35

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Posted May 28, 2012 @ 3:05 AM

Yeah, I mean we all love the Starks, but god damn if the Lannisters aren't just the Most Interesting Family in the World. So much brilliance but dysfunction, if the stakes were lowered and we had goofier music they could star in a Wes Anderson movie.

Also, now I guess this means we're going to get to see Cersei-Tyrion-Tywin scenes, so goddamn if that isn't going to be tense. Tywin seems able to turn all his children into cowering 12 year olds in his presence, but I suspect Cersei will resent it even more than the boys.
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#36

emjay1116

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Posted May 28, 2012 @ 9:00 AM

I really hate Cersei, a lot like really a lot, but damn drunk!Cersei is awesome. Lena Heady rocked it. Loved it and especially her weird dynamic with Sansa.
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#37

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Posted May 28, 2012 @ 11:11 AM

She was great last night but, I really can't wait for someone to take her down. Her just knocking down poor Lancel made me laugh out loud esp. added with the look on Tom's face. He was so shocked.

All the siblings are great. They are tough, crazy, and able to get things done. Had Tywin been more supportive of them and fostered more open love they might be able to work together and they would be an unbeatable force. But, Tywin didn't know HOW to openly love his children as shown by his bitterness over his father. It was like he thought openly loving and supporting his children would make them weak. When really the Stark's show you can be badass but, still love. That is why they will "win" in the end. If the Lannister siblings united and worked together (plus added their extended family...I.E. stop killing them and pushing them to the ground) they would really be unstoppable. The fact that they will NOT work together, actually work against each other, and see their father as a sort of saving angel/boogie man but, still manage to kick so much ass shows how strong they really are as individuals.

Sad really. They might be one of the best sympathetic villainous families ever written.

I mean really how can a series have so many characters on opposite sides that you want to root for. I root for Cersei, I root for Sansa, I root for Tyrion, I root for Arya, I root for Tywin, I root for Jaime, and now I root for Davos. lol that is like everyone except the stupid Greyjoys (who I just pity).

Anyway, more drunk Cersei. Line of night, "I didn't offer you water"

Edited by Scrapper, May 28, 2012 @ 11:14 AM.

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#38

darkestboy

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Posted May 29, 2012 @ 8:23 AM

Much as I hate Cersei as a person, she is compelling to watch and her scenes with Sansa and Tommen were utterly fascinating to watch.

Sansa got something of a wake up call with Cersei's drunken rants too.
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#39

Limbonaut

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Posted May 29, 2012 @ 12:07 PM

She was great last night but, I really can't wait for someone to take her down.


Oh there's a willing challenger and we've already seen her. Can't wait to see them face off.

Edited by Limbonaut, May 29, 2012 @ 12:08 PM.

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#40

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Posted May 29, 2012 @ 12:18 PM

She was such a bitch tonight to Sansa (and Shae too, for that matter) but damn if I couldn't sympathize with her on some level.

To be completely fair, this must be the first time I've ever seen Cercei truly scared. Bonus points because she seemd to fear for Tommen more than herself.

Edited by agora, May 29, 2012 @ 12:23 PM.

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#41

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Posted May 29, 2012 @ 12:37 PM

Sad really. They might be one of the best sympathetic villainous families ever written.


I really think she is shaping up to be the best villain on the show. She will never suceed because she just isn't actually smarter than any of the other players. But she is great to watch. I think this is an example where the portrayl trumps the book.
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#42

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Posted May 30, 2012 @ 7:20 AM

I really think she is shaping up to be the best villain on the show. She will never suceed because she just isn't actually smarter than any of the other players.


She truly is so fascinating to watch. A little more self-awareness and she could be one of the greats, but right now she is just a short-sighted bully.

Cercei really needs to put her mind to educating her children, it is a bit late for Myrcella since she was shipped off, but Tommen and even Jeof could still learn. She just coddles them and tells stories of grandeur, without actually arranging for them to get necessary life skills to play the game.
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#43

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Posted Jun 4, 2012 @ 9:36 AM

Cersei has been very good this season, with some real range shown, but I don't rate her as the best villain on the show as she barely seems like a villain. She's just whined and moped all season, and thrown aroudn insults. OK, there was the business with Ros, but that was petty revenge against Tyrion, not genuine villainy in plot terms.

I hope now she feels safe in Kl she will regain some dynamism. Tyrion being injured probably helped that.
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#44

raziela212

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Posted Jun 5, 2012 @ 1:44 PM

How come so many define Cersei as a villain? For me personally the whole point about the series is that there are no real villains, just people... With the exception of the blonde psychopath Joffrey. But since the Starks are portrayed as such do-good-ers, I guess everyone thinks the people fighting them must be the bad guys.

I guess most of the resentment stems from the whole incest ordeal. But hey, the Targs have been doing it for generations, who cares.

All her actions are basically self preservation (shoving Bran out of the window) or protecting her children (wolf killing).
Killing King Robert can hardly be considered villainous, after all he's been abusing her for years and she's been forced to marry him in the first place. Granted, it was kind of a backstabbing scenario, but she's a woman in medival times, what else is she supposed to do, but endure it and wait for the time to strike?
So far we don't know if she was responsible for Jon Arryn's death.
She didn't order Ned Stark to be killed, she even offered him a way out.

She wants power, and why shouldn't she, every single one in the series does. Her claim is as good as anyone elses. After all the throne was won by rebellion the last time around. And now the rebells are suddenly all high and mighty about their few years old birthrights to be kings? WTF!

For her to be a villain, I miss a bit of malice! For the most part she's the victim and her actions are just reactions. A real villain does evil things proactively not reactively.
If it wasn't for the Starks, obviously introduced as good guys and them being portrayed as the victims the whole first season, you might as well see her as a hero in this.
(Getting stalked and peeped by crazy kid, her poor son gets attacked by malicious wolf, husband drunk and abusive, getting out of her arranged marriage by arranging husbands death, nosy Ned Stark sniffing around in her sex life, Stark starting another rebellion because he wants to protect the Baratheon's rebell birthright..., finds herself beneath another male king she has no control over, getting ridiculed and pushed around by her dwarf brother and a whole lot of love for her children throughout the whole thing!)
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#45

emjay1116

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Posted Jun 5, 2012 @ 5:07 PM

Why do I see Cersei as a villian? Let's see.
She had her husband murdered. Sure, Robert sucked, but not like she was an innocent victim in that situation. It was a sick, twisted, fucked up marriage and over the years as they grew to hate each other they both did really awful, horrible things. She doesn't have any right to kill him. (And if he had had her killed I wouldn't have agreed with that either, for the record. Unless your spouse is Joffrey or the Mountain, I really don't think you have a right to kill them.)
I find the way she's so arrogant and looks down on everybody and acts like "well of course I sleep with my twin, nobody else could possibly be good enough for me" and treats everyone except her kids like shit not exactly endearing.
She refused to have her husband's kids and instead only had her brother's bastards, which she passed off as Robert's. (Which would be proactively evil, not reactive.) You cannot argue there was anything but malice there. Think of the pleased ways she told Ned that thank the gods they were all Jaime's. She's mighty proud of herself for that. How is that not villainous?
She had all of Robert's bastards, innocent little babies even!, brutally murdered. I get that politically getting rid of the bastards makes sense, but then why not do it sooner? Or not in a brutal, kinda public, massacre? With your own guards doing it?
Then there's everything she's done with Tyrion. Constantly threatening him for no good reason, saying all the rude shit she does to him, brutalizing a whore she thought he was sleeping with, the assassination attempt during battle. None of that is anything other than malice and Cersei jsut being a crazy bitch.
Then there's her being so rude and contemptuous of the ladies she invited to stay safe with her during the battle, and you know leaving them.



Cersei's just a big old ball of crazy villain. Nothing but bitterness, craziness, malice, (and stupidity if you ask me. All of her decisions are pretty awful and backfire). And I get that being a woman in this society sucks big time and she's been a victim of that and all ... and yet so have all the other women we've seen and none of them are like her. She's just a horrible, terrible, awful, selfish, self-centered, somewhat evil person.
Honestly, if she were a man, I think she'd be Littlefinger, you know if she had any skill at playing the game. But yeah, she's as horrible as he is, if you ask me.


I just can't understand how people could defend her. Makes no sense! Look at what happened to the Hound and how he turned out, and he's pretty much universally acknowledged as scary and while not a villain necessarily people don't act like he's just a poor, innocent little victim. So why is Cersei, who's done a lot more bad shit than the Hound at this point, completely innocent of all wrong doing?

(Getting stalked and peeped by crazy kid, her poor son gets attacked by malicious wolf, husband drunk and abusive, getting out of her arranged marriage by arranging husbands death, nosy Ned Stark sniffing around in her sex life, Stark starting another rebellion because he wants to protect the Baratheon's rebell birthright..., finds herself beneath another male king she has no control over, getting ridiculed and pushed around by her dwarf brother and a whole lot of love for her children throughout the whole thing!)

Bran wasn't trying to stalk her or peep, obviously. Kid was like 10 and had no idea what was going on, so he went to investigate. That's an innocent victim there, not the Lannisters.
I don't think she had any right to kill Robert, that's nothing but completely wrong. Not like he treated her like Joffrey treats Sansa or how Viserys treated Dany. Again, not a good marriage, but it's not like Robert brutalized and terrorized her and spent 17 years abusing the shit out of her while she did nothing. Come on.
Ned Stark was only sniffing around her sex life because of the high treason she committed in passing off her bastards as legitimate royal children of his best friend. Again, Cersei is totally the wrong in this one, not the Stark.
How can Joffrey's birthright be stolen when it doesn't exist? She knows that. Better than anyone, she knows her kid has no claim to the throne. So again, people aren't wrong, in this society, to rebel against that. Stannis is the lawful, rightful king. Joffrey has absolutely zero right to the throne.
And how did Tyrion push her around? Sure they both said mean shit to each other, but they're Lannisters that's how they roll when dealing with family apparently. The only thing Tyrion did was ship off Myrcella, which kept her safe. Brutalizing Roz and ordering an assassination attempt are nothing but her being awful.

Sorry, I don't mean to rude, but I just really cannot possibly wrap my mind around how Cersei is the innocent or wronged party in any of those cases. As a woman in this society, sure. With Tywin as her dad, absolutely. Losing her mom at a young age, you bet. But none of that in any way excuses or mitigates her evil actions and murders, IMO.

Edited by emjay1116, Jun 5, 2012 @ 5:08 PM.

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#46

agora

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Posted Jun 5, 2012 @ 5:27 PM

How come so many define Cersei as a villain?

To be honest, I see her as a ruthless player in the Game of Thrones, one willing to do what it takes without the use of conventional weapons (swords, armies, etc.), a fascinating character in her own right and a matriarch for the Lannisters, even after she married a Baratheon.

But I guess it's always easier to see her as a villain if you want to make a Cercei=evil vs Sansa=good parallel.

Edited by agora, Jun 5, 2012 @ 5:30 PM.

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#47

raziela212

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Posted Jun 5, 2012 @ 6:07 PM

You are assuming a whole lot here. I don't know if you got it from the books (I don't remember every detail) or your guessing it. We neither know it was Cersei ordering the hit on tyrion, nor did she kill Robert's bastards in the show.

How does passing her kids of as Robert's make her a villain? Noone is getting hurt by that, other than maybe Robert's feelings.
She didn't kill Robert's bastards, that was Joffrey's decision, since we are talking about the show here.
Tyrion: He shipped her daughter of to the desert, so she had a little retribution. Surely not a nice thing to do, still understandable, eye for an eye, I guess.
Tyrion not pushing her around? Seriously, this is just such a double standard, of course he pushes her around, but everyone likes Tyrion, so no big deal, right? From the second Tyrion puts foot in Kings Landing, he basically runs all over her, keeping her out of the loop on everything, because he thinks he's the smartest dwarf in town. He ships Myrcella off, sure he says she's safer there. Is she really, though? How could he possibly predict Dorne's reaction?

I find the way she's so arrogant and looks down on everybody and acts like "well of course I sleep with my twin, nobody else could possibly be good enough for me" and treats everyone except her kids like shit not exactly endearing.

As I said, incest is ok for the targs in the universe, why should it be a big deal here? double standard... She treats people like shit, because she's a noble woman, a Lannister no less, and that's how they are brought up...

Then there's her being so rude and contemptuous of the ladies she invited to stay safe with her during the battle, and you know leaving them.

So that's a prerequisite for being a villain nowadays? She kind of explained it herself, it's just what's expected of her. So what she does is trashtalking behind other women's backs, every woman does that... Keeping Ilyn Payne around was more of a good service to all the women, rather than being evil, since they were only getting gangraped and possibly killed or imprisoned anyways.

How can Joffrey's birthright be stolen when it doesn't exist? She knows that. Better than anyone, she knows her kid has no claim to the throne. So again, people aren't wrong, in this society, to rebel against that. Stannis is the lawful, rightful king. Joffrey has absolutely zero right to the throne.

If you're going that route, Dany would be the rightful Queen, not Stannis. After all, the Baratheons only got the throne by rebellion in the first place. But suddenly it's a different story when the get "usurped" themselves...

Everyone's always ok with Robert's little rebellion he started for a girl. Yet when Cersei tries to claim the throne for her family it is a bad thing.

But none of that in any way excuses or mitigates her evil actions and murders, IMO.

Just saying, Cersei has exactly one kill on her conscience. I'd say only Bran, Tommen and Sansa beat her in that statistic... Even Arya could be considered ten times the villain Cersei is. She killed that boy in KL, the second guy she had killed in Harrenhal, did nothing but discover her true nature, during her escape like 4-5 guards were killed, but they were Lannister men, so it's ok right?
The second murder parallels the Cersei-Ned situation perfectly, Ned discovered secret, guy discovered secret, Ned wants to tell his rightful superior, guy wants to tell his rightful superior, Cersei imprisoned Ned, Arya kills guy. Yet, everyone loves Arya.

Edited by raziela212, Jun 5, 2012 @ 6:14 PM.

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#48

SpeciousLogic

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Posted Jun 5, 2012 @ 6:31 PM

Complete agreement with almost all of emjay1116's post.

How does passing her kids of as Robert's make her a villain? Noone is getting hurt by that, other than maybe Robert's feelings.


This is treason, subverting the accepted line of succession for purely selfish reasons.

He ships Myrcella off, sure he says she's safer there. Is she really, though? How could he possibly predict Dorne's reaction?


She's safer because she isn't in KL to get raped and killed by Stannis' troops (which appeared extremely likely at the time). That seems like a no-brainer move to me. And he didn't just send her off in a ship and hope for the best; these things are always negotiated with clear plans for how she was to be placed in Dorne. It was also laying the groundwork for a potential alliance between the Lannisters and the Martells, which would have been part of the quid pro quo of the whole deal.

As I said, incest is ok for the targs in the universe, why should it be a big deal here? double standard...



The Targs were open about it, not doing it secretly to subvert the line of succession. And even given the Targaryens, incest is NOT the accepted standard in Westeros. They were the exception and only tolerated because they had dragons.

We neither know it was Cersei ordering the hit on tyrion,


Yes we do, and no matter what Tyrion ever did to Cersei, trying to have her killed was never one of them. If someone steps on your toe, you don't cut off his head in retaliation. Gross overreaction is just as evil as self-initiated evil.

And she also has made it clear that she has hated Tyrion his entire life for the crime of his mother dying while he was being born. That is, again, pure evil.

TV!Cersei is certainly being portrayed (and brilliantly by LH) as more complex than Book!Cersei, and she even seems to be a bit whitewashed. But with very few exceptions (the Mountain and Balon Greyjoy, perhaps), I think she is the most evil person in the show.

Edited by SpeciousLogic, Jun 5, 2012 @ 6:32 PM.

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#49

emjay1116

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Posted Jun 5, 2012 @ 7:10 PM

Actually, I'm not really a Tyrion fan. But I feel like of the two of them, only Cersei would do something to seriously screw over or harm the other. There might be no love lost between the two of them, but I can't picture Tyrion hurting a random innocent simply to get back at Cersei or ordering a hit on her (which like Specious Logic said was mentioned on the show).We have her brutalizing Shae and ordering Tyrion killed, but other than Myrcella (which as the riot soon after she left and Cersei's talk about how if the city falls they'll all be raped yes I'd say she IS safer), what has Tyrion done?
And whatever games Tyrion has played, hasn't Cersei played them all too? So again, why is she innocent here and not him? But unlike her, he's not being malicious in them.



Did they say Joffrey ordered the massacre of the bastards? I misremembered that, my bad.


And yes, I believe sleeping with multiple people and not being honest about that and freaking lying about the parentage of your children is very fucked up. That's not cool. People deserve honesty about that kind of thing, right? How can lying about who's the father of your children not be a heinous thing to do?
And yes, it is treason.


Robert's rebellion is a little more justifiable, what with the Mad King doing all kinds of horrible shit and "burn them all". But what Cersei's doing isn't like that. She's not claiming the throne for her family to get rid of an awful king (which let's face it, Stannis or Renly or Robb would be a billion times better than Joffrey, and even Cersei knows that, even Dany would be much better), she's using false claims which everybody knows to be lies to put a vicious idiot psychopath on the throne where as Robert rebelled to take a vicious psychopath off the throne.



And as for the Arya comparison ... well I'm not saying Arya has flawless morals. But she never meant to kill that boy. And as for Ned's secret he discovered that got him killed versus the boy ... um innocent child being captured because her dad discovered high treason and her entire household is being slaughtered versus the queen has been committing high treason and the children aren't legitimate and the entire line of succession is now fucked, not really comparable for me.
Plus Arya's in a much, much more dire situation than Cersei could ever imagine. She's in the middle of a war zone. Her life is constantly at risk. On any given day, she's in more jeopardy than Cersei has been in in her entire life. If Cersei finds herself surrounded by hostile men who would gang bang her and kill her or sell her to the highest bidder, then I'd also be more forgiving of her having A Man take out some threats. But I don't think their two situations were comparable.





But really, it's book!Cersei I hate so much. I didn't hate her on the show last season (didn't like her, but she was just a generic evil ice queen type and Lena Heady is so good), but then I read the books. So it's future events that make her so bad for me I guess.
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#50

Betsyb

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Posted Jun 5, 2012 @ 7:17 PM

This is treason, subverting the accepted line of succession for purely selfish reasons.


Breaking the laws of a fictional land may make you a criminal there but it doesn't make you a villain. Morality and legality are not one in the same. By the standards of their land women can't sleep around and certainly not with their brother. But morally if Robert can do it so she can she. And she loved her brother dearly.

Yes we do, and no matter what Tyrion ever did to Cersei, trying to have her killed was never one of them. If someone steps on your toe, you don't cut off his head in retaliation. Gross overreaction is just as evil as self-initiated evil.


I have no problem believing that she did it but how in the heck do we know it was her? I didn't see anything that confirmed it. Did I miss a scene? I know what Tyrion was told but I don't see why that is trustworthy.

Edited by Betsyb, Jun 5, 2012 @ 7:54 PM.

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#51

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Posted Jun 5, 2012 @ 9:05 PM

To be honest, I see her as a ruthless player in the Game of Thrones, one willing to do what it takes without the use of conventional weapons (swords, armies, etc.), a fascinating character in her own right and a matriarch for the Lannisters, even after she married a Baratheon.

But I guess it's always easier to see her as a villain if you want to make a Cercei=evil vs Sansa=good parallel.


You are assuming a whole lot here. I don't know if you got it from the books (I don't remember every detail) or your guessing it. We neither know it was Cersei ordering the hit on tyrion...

I was thinking about her involvement in Ned Stark's death and the attempt to hurt Tyrion's whore - only she got Ross instead - myself. It's no assumption Cercei was more than a little responsible for Ned Stark's downfall, regardless whom ordered what happened to Tyrion in the episode before the finale.

*ETA:

I have no problem believing that she did it but how in the heck do we know it was her?

We do not know, Lord Varys said that it was Cercei in the scene he brought Shae to vist Tyrion - the "Where before there was nothing but love?" exchange - but there's no way to either confirm or deny.

Edited by agora, Jun 5, 2012 @ 9:31 PM.

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#52

raziela212

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Posted Jun 6, 2012 @ 11:04 AM

Just to clear something up. I am not trying to argue that Cersei is a generic good person, I am just saying that she is no villain, but just another human, with her own flaws. She just doesn't stand out as a big bad, there's a dozen people worse that have done the same or worse.

I just like to get back to the Arya comparison. How is being surrounded by bad men an excuse to kill? Just because they were Lannister men makes their death more acceptable? The guards and the 2nd guy did nothing wrong, except being part of the wrong house... The Tickler definitely deserved his death, but the others? The guards i might even admit that the escape was an action of war and thus justifiable. But the 2nd guy is the exact parallel to Ned Stark and I won't cave on that. The circumstances were exactly the same, they are both free and clear with the guy dead/imprisoned or they would both have had their head on a spike if news got out.

Breaking the laws of a fictional land may make you a criminal there but it doesn't make you a villain. Morality and legality are not one in the same. By the standards of their land women can't sleep around and certainly not with their brother. But morally if Robert can do it so she can she. And she loved her brother dearly.


Exaclty. Robert's whoring around and it's no big deal for everyone. Even if Cersei didn't do her brother but someone different, the whole situation with Bran would have played out exactly the same. The incest thing is really clouding a lot of people's minds. If it was someone else entirely and word got out, she would have still had an appointment with Ilyn Payne... That's also the reason why I don't see killing Robert as such a bad thing, it's not like there was another option, but to live with him til death does them apart.


Robert's Rebellion:
As far as I remember, he only started it because of Lyanna. Usurping the Mad King was more or less a by-product.

That seems like a no-brainer move to me. And he didn't just send her off in a ship and hope for the best; these things are always negotiated with clear plans for how she was to be placed in Dorne. It was also laying the groundwork for a potential alliance between the Lannisters and the Martells, which would have been part of the quid pro quo of the whole deal.

Yeah, and as we know, deals are always honored in this world...
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#53

agora

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Posted Jun 6, 2012 @ 11:24 AM

I just like to get back to the Arya comparison.

Personally, I think comparing Cercei to Arya sounds as absurd as to compare Cercei to Brienne of Tarth for she couldn't be more different, where these are warrior women Cercei is only a Lady. It would take a whole lot more than a sword and her own battles for Cercei to be even remotely similar to them in my eyes.

For one, Cercei still hides behind a man (if it's not Jaime, then Joffrey, if its not Joffrey then Tywin and so on) and even Sansa was braver than she was at Blackwater.

Edited by agora, Jun 6, 2012 @ 11:26 AM.

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#54

raziela212

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Posted Jun 6, 2012 @ 11:55 AM

I am not comparing the characters, I am comparing the 2 situations. Same scenarios, but one makes Cersei an evil bitch and the other makes Arya the beloved little warrior princess...
There always seems to be a different moral code when the Starks are involved. It's the same for Robb. He is considered a hero, even though he's leading thousands of men to their death for petty revenge for his father's death. Everybody seems to have a problem with the fact that Cersei's children have no claim for the throne, but Robb doesn't either, so what's the deal with that...
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#55

agora

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Posted Jun 6, 2012 @ 12:14 PM

Personally, I think comparing Cercei to Arya sounds as absurd as to compare Cercei to Brienne of Tarth for she couldn't be more different, where these are warrior women Cercei is only a Lady. It would take a whole lot more than a sword and her own battles for Cercei to be even remotely similar to them in my eyes.

For one, Cercei still hides behind a man (if it's not Jaime, then Joffrey, if its not Joffrey then Tywin and so on) and even Sansa was braver than she was at Blackwater.

I am not comparing the characters, I am comparing the 2 situations. Same scenarios, but one makes Cersei an evil bitch and the other makes Arya the beloved little warrior princess...There always seems to be a different moral code when the Starks are involved.

These are hardly the same scenarios to me: where Cercei showed contempt for the father(Robert), Arya has nothing but respect for the son (Gendry); where Cercei uses sex as a weapon, Arya doesn't even know what to do with boys yet; where Cercei was willing to take her own life at Blackwater, Arya is always ready to die fighting whether at Harrenhal this season or King's Landing last season, etc.

The way I see it, this isn't because she is a Stark, but because at 12 years old Arya's already braver, stronger and - in my opinion - smarter than Cercei Lannister would ever be.

Edited by agora, Jun 6, 2012 @ 12:21 PM.

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#56

redbudrose

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Posted Jun 6, 2012 @ 1:20 PM

I am not comparing the characters, I am comparing the 2 situations. Same scenarios, but one makes Cersei an evil bitch and the other makes Arya the beloved little warrior princess...


If you are comparing situations and not people, then you need to take into consideration intent and whether either were acting in self defense.

I can't think of any situation where Cersei had to physically defend her body or life, where as I can think of situations that Arya did. In those situations Arya's intent wasn't malicious.
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#57

emjay1116

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Posted Jun 6, 2012 @ 6:07 PM

Personally, I do see Cersei as a villain, one of the shittiest people in a series filled with lots of shitty people. Sure, she's not nearly as far on the "sick, twisted, sadistic, piece of shit" scale as say The Mountain and Joffrey, but she's still awful. Just because some others are worse doesn't make her not bad or ok.
To me, she is definitely a villain because she has no redeeming feature. She has never, ever done one good act! She's nothing but hurting other people and bringing misery and pain.

Ned gave his life and his honor (which is obviously much more precious to him) to keep his daughter safe. He fucked everything up and ruined it all by telling Cersei so that she could get the children away so that innocent kids wouldn't be killed for the crimes of another. Compare that to Cersei. She has zero problem hurting and harming innocents and children (see the Stark household. All of those servants were brutally murdered for absolutely nothing they'd done. A large scale massacre of perfectly innocent people and somehow she's not a villain?). Hell, she can't even be bothered to treat Sansa halfway decently even knowing that Sansa is all that is keeping her beloved brother alive. Ned was a good man who tried to do good to others, even others who have done something wrong (Cersei, the deserter from the pilot). That's the whole way of the Starks. They just are much better, nicer people than the Lannisters as a whole.



And how is Robb wrong for heading off to war, but the Lannisters aren't in the wrong for starting the war by mass raping and pillaging in the Riverlands or again massacring the entire Stark household there in Kingslanding for no reason?

Edited by emjay1116, Jun 6, 2012 @ 6:09 PM.

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#58

lawless

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Posted Jun 6, 2012 @ 10:56 PM

I think Cersei is definitely more sympathetic and nuanced on the show than in the books to this point, but I agree, she's definitely selfish, very cold to the plight of others, and downright mean and cruel at times, particularly to Sansa and her brother Tyrion. Tyrion provokes her sometimes, but they clearly have a longstanding history of hate, coming from her, for things that were not his fault. However, her situation, and that of all women in this world is sympathetic. She was used as a bargaining chip by her father to obtain prestige and power for the Lannister family, and though I think she contributed to the failure of her relationship with Robert, he was able to live it up, and she was required to "service" his needs, against her will, whenever he required it of her, while he openly humiliated her with other women. And play dutiful, faithful, stay-at-home-Queen. It's not a justification for her cruelty toward others, so I don't like her, but yet I understand why she feels jaded, cynical, used, and cheated in life. However, she seem to lack the perspective that all of these things are true of most women, and she derided them as hens. She has very little feeling for anyone other than herself, her children, and Jaime. She had moments with Sansa, but even when she was giving her "good" advice by telling her the truth about certain things, with rare exception she was cruel about it.

However, in her defense, though Ned offered her the choice to flee -- was that really realistic? How would she support herself and her children if she took to the free cities alone? The Lannisters are rich, but the incest accusations would come out -- it would be the only way to explain why she fled, such that someone wouldn't go get her and the heirs to the Iron Throne. Once the news was out, realistically, what would Tywin Lannister, who controls the Lannister purse strings, have done? To save face, he'd have to deny the accusations, and they'd probably end up in a civil war. If Cersei admitted the rumors, or for whatever reasons he chose to believe them, he would probably cut her off and denouce her and anyone who helped her. Robert was willing to send assassins after Dany, he might very well do the same to her and the kids. She wouldn't know, and wouldn't have anyone to protect her. Maybe Jaime could have joined her, but he'd have most likely ended up a sellsword like Jorah, but with a target on his head too, as a traitor to the Iron Throne. Ned meant well, but if the incest secret got out, there was no quiet retirement in the free cities. If Cersei wanted to protect her children, Ned had to go. The arrangement to send him to the Wall was not so bad, and would not have resulted in all out war, most likely. It would have been very sad for the Starks, but he'd have been with Jon Snow, and in visiting distance of Winterfell. She's shortsided, selfish, and cruel at times, but on the show, she's not a sadist like Joffrey, so I don't totally see her as a villian, just someone I don't usually like who I don't want to win.
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#59

Titus

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Posted Jun 7, 2012 @ 9:51 PM

She had all of Robert's bastards, innocent little babies even!, brutally murdered. I get that politically getting rid of the bastards makes sense, but then why not do it sooner? Or not in a brutal, kinda public, massacre? With your own guards doing it


That was Joffrey who ordered the massacre.
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#60

Hecate7

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Posted Jun 8, 2012 @ 4:33 AM

Just to clear something up. I am not trying to argue that Cersei is a generic good person, I am just saying that she is no villain, but just another human, with her own flaws. She just doesn't stand out as a big bad, there's a dozen people worse that have done the same or worse.


Cersei's villainy: she whined about Bran seeing them until Jaime threw Bran from the tower, then said "nobody asked you to do that." She did ask, in her way. She just didn't want to take any responsibility. She's an accomplice in Bran's attempted murder.

She murdered her husband with poison.

She ordered the Stark household purged in her capacity as regent. The deaths of all the Stark servants--including Syrio and Septa Mordane, are on her conscience.

She showed her true colors early by eagerly having innocent Lady killed--apparently one wolf was as good as another.

And now she's tried to have Tyrion killed. If her body count still hovers at one (not counting all the Stark servants,) it's not for want of trying.

She had Roz beaten in retaliation for Tyrion sending Myrcella to safety.

She raised Joffrey and made him what he is.

She also had a spectacular "kick the dog" moment, when she pushed Lancel, her lover and accomplice in Robert's murder, so hard in his arrow wound that he fell down weeping in front of all those women. Pretty brutal if you think about it.

Edited by Hecate7, Jun 8, 2012 @ 3:01 PM.

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